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More important than that.....
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Whilst most of us continue to believe that funds for new signings are comprehensively tied up with the decision on Kirkby, I heard last night that something altogether more important hangs on the outcome. Someone VERY close to The Club dropped out to me that David Moyes`s signature on that new contract is totally dependent on the scheme getting the go-ahead.All the terms are agreed and the signature will follow the green light; if it`s a `call-in` then the manager will sit out his existing contract pending further developments.
Apparently, he is aware that future income projections show clearly that the Club will be in BIG trouble soon if the move does not go through and partisan/sentimental considerations have become irrelevant.
Was this said to influence me, a NO voter? I don`t think so, I`m not that important ? but it`s certainly given me food for thought.
Colin Tunstall, Posted 25/07/2008 at 08:52:39
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If I had to choose between Kirkby with Moyes or no Kirkby no Moyes.. well I?m sorry because I like Dave but it's goodbye and thank you for all you have done. After the way this Board have messed you about over transfers from day one, I for one don't blame you for going. BUT le'ts be CLEAR: no manager should have a say on ground movements.
What aload of tripe. If we do go to Kirkby there will be even less money than what we have got now with all the EXTRA loans we will have to take out just to build the ground, price of steel going up every day, Kenwright & Co... just one big nightmare!
Nor should fans
I love Everton but this news and the bizarre Neville signing is getting me well pissed off with everything about the club!
Peter - Yes they SHOULD.
There?s IS an Everton without Moyes.
There?s NO Everton without the fans.
I?m with Roy.
(By the way, I?m a big supporter of DM and would hate to see him go.)
There?s IS an Everton without Moyes.
There?s NO Everton without the fans.
I?m with Roy.
(By the way, I?m a big supporter of DM and would hate to see him go.)
Anybody who frequents a certain hostelry ?over the water? will have heard this story from the same source. I don?t think there is any immediate danger of Moyes departing only that he will sit on the contract to see the outcome if it goes to Public Enquiry. No need to panic at this stage.
EJ :
Are you saying that fans be given a SAY on a ground move or the DECISION ?
Are you saying that fans be given a SAY on a ground move or the DECISION ?
Roy; I don’t think it’s a case of Moyes wanting a say in the decision-more the reality of incoming funds to develop his squad if the scheme gets the OK.
For all we know,Everton could be on the verge of bankrupsy as we write and if only DK can save them its a no brainer!
For all we know,Everton could be on the verge of bankrupsy as we write and if only DK can save them its a no brainer!
Setting aside the rubbish stadium design, the free slag heap to build it on that’s supposed to represent £50m investment in the club, the logistical nightmare we’ll all face if we bother attending matches after a move, etc ad infinitum, I still haven’t seen one shred of evidence that revenue will increase in any way from a move to Kirkby.
Therefore I can’t see why it would affect Moyes’s decision to sign a new deal.. Much more likely to be the board messing him about that is making him stall. Surely they wouldn’t lie to him too.. er...
Therefore I can’t see why it would affect Moyes’s decision to sign a new deal.. Much more likely to be the board messing him about that is making him stall. Surely they wouldn’t lie to him too.. er...
Peter.
A say in the decision IS the decision!
What’s the difference?
You either have a ’say’ or not.
You don’t have a say in NOT the decision.
Pretty clear what I’m saying.
A say in the decision IS the decision!
What’s the difference?
You either have a ’say’ or not.
You don’t have a say in NOT the decision.
Pretty clear what I’m saying.
I suspect that there ARE investors waiting in the wings if the stadium problem can be resolved quickly.Lets be honest would YOU invest in a club that plays at a tip like Goodison if your business aquaintences were tied into Old Trafford or Villa Park.I suspect Kenwright was near to giving the game away when he talked about potential foreign investors at the London meeting.
EJ:
One can have a say in a decision or there can be a sole arbiter. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the fans should be the sole arbiters.That is what I say is wrong. The decision whether or not to move should be the Board’s and the Board’s alone.
One can have a say in a decision or there can be a sole arbiter. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the fans should be the sole arbiters.That is what I say is wrong. The decision whether or not to move should be the Board’s and the Board’s alone.
Moyes: ’Let’s just say I’m a traditionalist’
I don't understand this. Can someone explain if we are near to bankruptcy (possible the way we are run). How would going into another huge debt help? At best it would only delay the inevitable as the deal as it stands means getting more non-football revenue nay impossible due to Kirkby council restrictions.
Roy,I’m talking about NEW money from outside investors not profits accruing from our crap commercial set-up!
Bankruptcy now, is it?
If so...
1. how badly run must we be in a medium awash with Sky/TV money and loyal fan bases?
2. why do we not hear of other PL clubs in such dire straits?
3 who is to blame?
And ,Peter, nor should a supermarket
If so...
1. how badly run must we be in a medium awash with Sky/TV money and loyal fan bases?
2. why do we not hear of other PL clubs in such dire straits?
3 who is to blame?
And ,Peter, nor should a supermarket
I agree with almost everybody on here to some degree or other but I feel that transfers are being delayed due to Kirkby because they havent enough money to satisfy Moyes and they will be able to borrow on the strength of Kirkby.
On the other hand I think "Black Bill" will see his pension fund evaporate and sell up immediately if Kirkby does not go ahead.
I suppose it would be too much to expect him to do the honourable thing and resign,
IMO Moyes is only stalling because like us he is struggling to see his way through the mist.
On the other hand I think "Black Bill" will see his pension fund evaporate and sell up immediately if Kirkby does not go ahead.
I suppose it would be too much to expect him to do the honourable thing and resign,
IMO Moyes is only stalling because like us he is struggling to see his way through the mist.
This investor business.
If you had a shedload of money and a club needed investment. Would you wait until they had moved to an out of city, mid range stadium before investing. Or would you make a move early so that you could study the options for yourself thus making sure that you made the most out of your money.
I’m sorry people but to say that people are waiting until after the move before investing in the club flies in the face of good business sense.
I don’t think they are expecting new investors if we move, I think it’s more a case of current investors jumping ship if they don’t get their payout from the move. Or is it libellous to suggest that?
If you had a shedload of money and a club needed investment. Would you wait until they had moved to an out of city, mid range stadium before investing. Or would you make a move early so that you could study the options for yourself thus making sure that you made the most out of your money.
I’m sorry people but to say that people are waiting until after the move before investing in the club flies in the face of good business sense.
I don’t think they are expecting new investors if we move, I think it’s more a case of current investors jumping ship if they don’t get their payout from the move. Or is it libellous to suggest that?
So if you are right Steve - why has no-one bought us so far? Why has there not even been a whisper of a serious buyer? (PLEASE don’t repeat the nonsense that Bill is somehow preventing anyone from even trying to buy the club.)
More libellous carrot dangling to help push this hulking, ilconceived notion over the line?! How did pompey secure investment with an even more archaic stadium, with only 20,000 seats and a fraction of our history and fanbase? Kirkby wont attract any more investment than GP if we don’t fill it regularly and with substantially more debt incurred by it. I’m certain the investment has always been there if the club wanted it. Given the attrocious transport issues, who can see us keeping the existing regulars let alone gaining the extra 15,000 to make this viable beyond its initial novelty value? A stadium is for life, not for the profiteer!!
The proof of the pudding will be in the eating regarding Moyes and Kirkby. IF Kirkby gets the rubber-stamp and then Moyes promptly signs on the dotted line we will then have to accept that he must be in favour of the move. Something the ?no? brigade have been saying he is not. Well lets wait and see...Moyes may yet become the boards greatest weapon against the scattered remnants of KEIOC if (as I suspect) he chooses to sign a new long-term contract just after a Kirkby green light.
Simon,
If Kirkby gets the go-ahead to move to the next stage, trying to implement the move, and Moyes signs..how does that prove he’s in favour?
If, as some believe, the OK means money for transfers will be borrowed and made available to Moyes, all that proves is he’s in favour of having money for his next phase of team-building
If Kirkby gets the go-ahead to move to the next stage, trying to implement the move, and Moyes signs..how does that prove he’s in favour?
If, as some believe, the OK means money for transfers will be borrowed and made available to Moyes, all that proves is he’s in favour of having money for his next phase of team-building
The fans are always the last to find things out yet it's our money that keeps the club going. Why has Everton not had an offer of a buyer? BK just likes the glory. Phil Neville playing at 35... god help us!
Tom: "I’m certain that the investment has always been there if the club wanted it". I respect and always benefit from your posts, but this is the kind of basic avoidance of reality that drives me crazy about so many on the No side.
It really would be lovely to believe this. I would like to believe it myself, and to tell myself such nice stories. It’s all mad Bill’s and bad Keith’s fault; if only they went things would be fine; investors are just waiting to pump money into the club; GP can be turned into a world class revenue generating stadium, or we can build our own in the city to rival the RS’s...
Where have you guys been for twenty years? Are you like Rip van Winkle and you’ve only just woken up?
Let me hit you with a monstrous dose of reality. We have been in financial decline for twenty years at least and are now very poor. We are financially increasingly outmuscled by everyone from Chelsea down to Portsmouth. We are not generating nearly enough revenue. We are not an attractive investment for anyone in our current state. We need urgently to break out of this financial trap or we are in certain futher decline. Kirkby is the best possible deal for a brand new revenue optimised ground that we could ever imagine getting. If we are ever going to get a major new owner and new investment, securing this new ground is vital (that is why Moyesie is not signing).
Yes, it must be comfortable to believe that we are still the Mersey Millionaires (or could easily be again), and that it is 100% Bill’s and Keith’s fault. But IT IS NOT TRUE. The situation is FAR worse than anything that could be simply solved by Bill and / or Keith departing the scene. It is not importantly about Bill and Keith - it is about the fundamentally weak position the club is in after twenty years of decline, in a world in which all the other clubs around us are increasingly stronger and better positioned.
It is no service to the club we all love to keep on comforting yourself with soothing stories.
It really would be lovely to believe this. I would like to believe it myself, and to tell myself such nice stories. It’s all mad Bill’s and bad Keith’s fault; if only they went things would be fine; investors are just waiting to pump money into the club; GP can be turned into a world class revenue generating stadium, or we can build our own in the city to rival the RS’s...
Where have you guys been for twenty years? Are you like Rip van Winkle and you’ve only just woken up?
Let me hit you with a monstrous dose of reality. We have been in financial decline for twenty years at least and are now very poor. We are financially increasingly outmuscled by everyone from Chelsea down to Portsmouth. We are not generating nearly enough revenue. We are not an attractive investment for anyone in our current state. We need urgently to break out of this financial trap or we are in certain futher decline. Kirkby is the best possible deal for a brand new revenue optimised ground that we could ever imagine getting. If we are ever going to get a major new owner and new investment, securing this new ground is vital (that is why Moyesie is not signing).
Yes, it must be comfortable to believe that we are still the Mersey Millionaires (or could easily be again), and that it is 100% Bill’s and Keith’s fault. But IT IS NOT TRUE. The situation is FAR worse than anything that could be simply solved by Bill and / or Keith departing the scene. It is not importantly about Bill and Keith - it is about the fundamentally weak position the club is in after twenty years of decline, in a world in which all the other clubs around us are increasingly stronger and better positioned.
It is no service to the club we all love to keep on comforting yourself with soothing stories.
Neil
your post fails the minute you start to believe that its not 100% the fault of Kenwright and Wyness.
At a time when the Premier League is awash with money and the likes of Spurs with a capacity of only 36,000 get more than double our income ? yes thats right, double because of the amount they get from commercial operations ? while our 2 clowns have had operating losses of £10 million for the last 2 years and less than £1 million from commercial activities.
It summed it all up for me when our supposed leader said "I dont know what's going on at the club I?m only a fan".
If you think we can't do better then you?re wasting your time as a business consultant and as I?ve said before I would expect somebody with your intelligence to see through the Kirkby debacle but I do respect that you defend your opinion steadfastedly.
your post fails the minute you start to believe that its not 100% the fault of Kenwright and Wyness.
At a time when the Premier League is awash with money and the likes of Spurs with a capacity of only 36,000 get more than double our income ? yes thats right, double because of the amount they get from commercial operations ? while our 2 clowns have had operating losses of £10 million for the last 2 years and less than £1 million from commercial activities.
It summed it all up for me when our supposed leader said "I dont know what's going on at the club I?m only a fan".
If you think we can't do better then you?re wasting your time as a business consultant and as I?ve said before I would expect somebody with your intelligence to see through the Kirkby debacle but I do respect that you defend your opinion steadfastedly.
Neil, why do you insist on defending the indefensible? If all you say above is true and EFC are the most destitute club in the Prem, who?s bloody fault is it?
If it?s not the grey men who preceded this current Board and Kenright and Wyness for making matters worse, then whose? What?s so different about EFC that we have some sort of financial paralysis that doesn?t, obviously, effect other PL clubs? Does your monstrous dose of reality apply only to Everton?
In any other ?business? this Board would have been hounded out and the CEO dismissed on financial performance alone.
Neil
Just read your post you say "In a world in which all the other clubs around us are in a increasingly stronger and better position" I?d like to point out a few things,
Blackburn NO NEW STADIUM
Portsmouth NO NEW STADIUM
A.Villa NO NEW STADIUM
West Ham NO NEW STADIUM
Spurs NO NEW STADIUM
Fulham NO NEW STADIUM
Man City, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Wigan, Bolton out performed them all. Success does not depend on a new stadium, as the above shows; it depends on a good manager and steady investment like we have done over the last five years.
Just read your post you say "In a world in which all the other clubs around us are in a increasingly stronger and better position" I?d like to point out a few things,
Blackburn NO NEW STADIUM
Portsmouth NO NEW STADIUM
A.Villa NO NEW STADIUM
West Ham NO NEW STADIUM
Spurs NO NEW STADIUM
Fulham NO NEW STADIUM
Man City, Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Wigan, Bolton out performed them all. Success does not depend on a new stadium, as the above shows; it depends on a good manager and steady investment like we have done over the last five years.
One last point, if the stadium design was to be what we were promised, ie a world class stadium and not a B&Q warehouse look-alike, there may be more support for it.
Thanks for praising my stamina guys, defending what you see as indefensible, but I really could return the compliment! I don’t know how you guys can continue to believe that we are are in a basically sound position that only requires a change of management. Would it were that easy!
As I have said before, the judgement on the business success of the Bill / Keith reign remains unknown at this stage. What will determine it is if they can transition the club successfully to a new and richer owner. If this is precisely what they are doing by securing Kirkby - the picture will look very different.
You guys all simply assume that (a) the lack of serious new owner interest is an inexpilcable mystery of the universe and has nothing to do with the need for a new ground; and (b) Kirkby will be a financial disaster (despite obviously being a very good deal for a brand new stadium).
So you are writing Bill’s and Keith’s obituaries already. I would wait and see if I were you. If DK is secured, Moyes signs up again, a new owner emerges, new investment comes in to the club, Kirkby is a success on the back of a successful team on the pitch... things will look a little different.
Your alternatives appear to be either to sit about and hope for the best; or to sling out the owner and management when there is actually no one else coming in who wants to take us over. I do admire your persistence on sticking to what are - to me - such desperately unfounded and optimistic views.
As I have said before, the judgement on the business success of the Bill / Keith reign remains unknown at this stage. What will determine it is if they can transition the club successfully to a new and richer owner. If this is precisely what they are doing by securing Kirkby - the picture will look very different.
You guys all simply assume that (a) the lack of serious new owner interest is an inexpilcable mystery of the universe and has nothing to do with the need for a new ground; and (b) Kirkby will be a financial disaster (despite obviously being a very good deal for a brand new stadium).
So you are writing Bill’s and Keith’s obituaries already. I would wait and see if I were you. If DK is secured, Moyes signs up again, a new owner emerges, new investment comes in to the club, Kirkby is a success on the back of a successful team on the pitch... things will look a little different.
Your alternatives appear to be either to sit about and hope for the best; or to sling out the owner and management when there is actually no one else coming in who wants to take us over. I do admire your persistence on sticking to what are - to me - such desperately unfounded and optimistic views.
Neil,
Let it lie, man! You’re becoming a pompous windbag with delusions of infallibility
Let it lie, man! You’re becoming a pompous windbag with delusions of infallibility
Neil, as you’re not apparantly responding to questions, I’ll answer one for you...
One obvious difference between EFC and the other PL clubs who appear to be solvent is that we are run by Kenwright and Wyness
QED
One obvious difference between EFC and the other PL clubs who appear to be solvent is that we are run by Kenwright and Wyness
QED
Thanks Paul! This whole Kirkby thing can become a bit obsessive. I will leave it there...
I’m with Nick Entwistle, but still it don’t count for shit if we don’t sign PLAYERS
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1 Posted 25/07/2008 at 14:43:28
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