The Mail Bag
Getting to Kirkby
Comments (45)
I have never quite understood why Kirkby is such a no-no. Goodison Park is now quite dated and unsatisfactory, those pillars supporting the roof have been an anathema since first erected. What then, apart from the rather insular objection that Kirkby is outside the boundaries of Liverpool, are the principal objections?
(1) No suitable pubs for pre-match discussions etc.
(2) Leaving Liverpool FC to be the only club to represent the city of Liverpool.
(3) The difficulty of access for supporters.
When I first started to follow the club, I lived across the water on the Wirral. Goodison Park seemed a very very long way away but there were hundreds, maybe thousands of 'True Blues' who lived over there and distance did not deter us. How then did we get there?
I used to cross over on the Ferry from Woodside in Birkenhead. As we walked up from the Landing Stage, we were greeted by a long line of trams to take us up to Goodison. Similarly, when the game ended, there was another long line of trams to take us back.
It would seem to me that it would not be beyond the wit of man to do something similar. Transport Companies would jump at the chance, maybe the Corporation Public Transport!
If removal to Kirby means investment from moneyed tycoons, I think we should give it a go. Many many supporters make journeys far longer than that which causes so much objection from Liverpudlians who want their support to be feather-bedded.
Tim Lloyd, Posted 04/08/2008 at 14:56:51
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I think the transport problem is one of the central issues. I take on board what you say about people seeinig opportunities BUT you?ve got to ask yourself WHY this is NOT properly addressed in the plans. You say it's ?not beyond the wit of man? to do something so surely they could have come up with something before the submission?
I also think that when we are supposedly moving to increase revenue streams, it?s ridiculous that the local council won?t sanction the stadium for other events. Add to this the poor stadium design (have a look, it won?t encourage singing so no atmosphere) & the fact it's incredibly bad timing to be doing this (high credit/interest rates & high commodity prices) and I?m now firmly in the NO camp.
Old Trafford is 2 miles from Manchester City Centre
Kirkby is 7 miles from Liverpool City Centre.
Everton have never played at Everton and were so named to gain support of those in the district.
If you tell the man in Kirkby that he is near the central business district (stadiums in CBDs have proven to have the most benefits for cities and their respective clubs) of Liverpool, he would argue that he isn?t...
its about moving away from the "Old Lady"...
Goodison for ever...
Old Trafford is within 2 miles of Manchester and is served by transport links and motorway networks that surpass even Goodison and Anfield.
They have a surrounding population of over 3 million within 30 minutes of the ground.
Now if you want to compare that to Kirkby get your facts straight.
When you started going to Goodison via the ferry/tram, did many people from Birkenhead work in Liverpool? I bet they did. I reckon the ferry/tram probably made money throughout the week, not just on matchdays.
Now, how many residents of Liverpool do you think work in Kirkby? How many from Crosby, Waterloo, Ormskirk, Formby, Southport, Speke, Garston, Birkenhead, etc travel to and from Kirkby on a daily basis?
Look at a map of Merseyrail line/stations, or a map of bus routes in Merseyside, or even a road map. Notice the way in which a lot of the main routes radiate from Liverpool city centre to the locations above? That’s because those routes are where the day-to-day demand for transport is.
For transport companies to jump at the chance to provide similar routes to Kirkby, you’ll need to provide the same number of weekday jobs as currently exist in the centre of Liverpool, because that gives them a return on their investment on about 200+ days a year. 20-25 matches just do not provide the same incentive.
Bus companies have to be very efficient to survive these days - no Corporation subsidy to support them.
They have a use for their entire fleet, so when someone comes up with a plan requiring 190 buses on a Wednesday or Thursday tea time 10 times a year, who is going to pay for them?
You?ve got the M57 less than a mile away, theres the M58 a couple of miles in the other direction, a train station up the street and a bus terminal across the road! It?ll be a hell of a lot better than it is at the minute.
For the record, I voted No but the more I think about it, I should've voted Yes, the Old Lady needs putting in a retirement home with those pillars that pass as a zimmer frame!!
Times change, people change, the ground needs a change and so does the team we all love back to a trophy winning team.
Remember we're called supporters not bitches, they reside across the park!!!!
Who knows whether GP can actually be redeveloped, or whether DK would be a disaster or a success - not me. And, incidentally, I don’t understand why a move to Kirkby would make us more attractive to foreign investment. But I’m sure there are many who think they know the answers to all of these things.
Heading down Longmoor Lane with the other bike riders after a night game will not be a problem. Even those going for the ferry will find it easy.
I don’t know why we didn’t move years ago. It just sounds so great.
Jay, you use 30 mins from OT ? does that not mean EFC is 30 mins within the city, so therefore we can expect you now to support Kirkby? You mention the alleged lies from the club; I believe we have seen far more from the KEIOC mob. All you No?s do is criticise whatever plans the Board come up with. NOBODY has ever come up with a plan B based on the same financial outlay. So unless that very important part of any operation is sorted the negativity is just plain boring!
It just makes me smile how you all criticise Kirkby so much when the current transport links are crap at GP! Queues on Queens Drive, Scotland Road etc, etc. You backed the loop at the beginning, my god that is locked by dual-carriageways, Long Lane is a dead end and would have been 400% worse that DK yet you all believe its acceptable... Seems you all have different standards and no matter what is offered be it quality of stadium, transport, city boundary, too big, poor material, finance package not sustainable etc, etc you will never be satisfied with what?s on offer because all your expectations are totally unrealistic.
I believe every Evertonian wants our great club to have the best of best but unfortunately we no longer have the funds or wealthy fan base to back it up. We are what it says on the tin, The People's Club, parochial club struggling to keep up with the modern day new money. It's not nice and I too I?m not happy but it's reality, just dissect all what has happened over the last months and its because we are poor, simple as!! COYB
It was sold as virtually free and it is far from that.
It is a MASSIVE risk. Would Villa, Newcastle, LFC, Arsenal, Man Utd leave their city? No.
Redevelop Goodison. And before anybody cries that it can?t be done, it can. Virtually every other Club has done it to some degree with Villa being the closest English equivalent to us.
The best examples lie North of the Border, however. Both Celtic & Rangers have done it, both without any big Sky TV money and in both cases by involving the fans in either Bond schemes or Lotteries.
Whatever you may think of Alan Willo?s ?rant? as you call it, it is your attitude that will be the death of this club if it is matched by enough luddites of the same ilk.
Your stance is like that of the Politburo. You cannot be wrong. If anything does go wrong it will be somebody else?s fault. You see your own views as being so sacrosanct, so superior, that you cannot even be arsed to offer constructive criticism of somebody else?s views, but, rather, descend to sarcasm and disdain.
Yawn and stretch all you like but there is more at stake here than your prejudices. Everton Football Club is dying on its feet and that is far more important to me and Alan Willo than how tired you feel and how much you wish to remain in the City that Everton Football Club WAS NOT born in!
It is not your Club, it is our Club. That Club gave us a vote which I cannot remember any other Club ever doing in these or any other circumstances. The voters who hold yours and similar views lost but instead of living with that and putting the Club first and foremost you decide to yawn and stretch and put your own needs first.
Sickening.
I?ve now decided that I will go to Kirkby, no matter how crap it is. I do understand the many Evertonians who will not go. I think, being from Belfast, that I am not soaked in the city tradition of many of the No voters, but I see their point.
Having read what I have, though, I am still opposed to Kirby for the following reasons:
- GP does not sell out. How will Kirkby when many Evertonians will not go?
- The transport infrastructure will apparently not support the allegedly huge crowds expected.
- Liverpool will become the true club of the city.
- We will be on a par with Bolton and Wigan.
- The soul of the club will be gone for ever.
- A new cheap stadium will attract the kind of investors that have no passion or feeling for the club.
- We are not wanted in Kirby.
so a few pillars means we should knock down The Grand Old Lady and move outside of the city? Bit drastic? Reckon a refurb is in order instead?
I thought the BK couldnt sell up if DK went through as he would be directly benifiting from the £50m odd of free land the project receives from Knowsley???
Vincent - sounds like you are unhappy with the way the club is being run just as much as you are with GP. A refurb and a new board would cost less and satisfy more. No?
- the Manure have got nothing to do with the City of Manchester. And The Arse? The City of Westminster, I suppose you mean. When in Spain I have given geography lessons to the locals. They have no idea that Arse, Chelski, Westam and the others are in "London". And, of course, they aren’t.
And Villa are called Aston - where’s that?
As for the Shite - as an outsider it looks like something to do with their city council as much as anything else. Or do they give prime sites to all comers?
The main problem I have with transport at Kirkby is that it should be a BIG improvement over Goodison BUT from what I can see it is NOT going to be. If you are going to have a new modern stadium then a 21st century transport infrastructure servicing it need to be part of the plan & I repeat IT IS NOT.
If anything there appear to be more restrictions planned there than at GP. Given that Everton have the highest number of fans who walk to games (in the EPL), moving means we will need MORE public transport provision than now and yet the local companies say they do not have the capacity for this. It just looks like it could be a bigger snarl up there than on current match days & this is bound to affect attendences & revenue streams which are supposedly the reason for moving.
It just does?nt look like ?joined up? thinking to me on the transport issue & the whole bike thing's a fuckin? joke, probably just to tick some box on the planning application.
Instead of spouting your usual unsubstantiated nonsense
Why not list these numerous lies KEIOC have told us?
Just so we can get a balanced view.
I want to keep Everton inside Liverpool more than some scousers do!
Actually the only reason I had for writing in the first place was the complaint that the new ground would be difficult of access.
Despite the remarks that there wouldn?t be sufficient transport available, how come it was available back in the 1930s. Attendances then would be much higher than today because there was standing. Remember the record crowd at Goodison was around 78,000.
As for the stadium design, I cannot comment. I?ve seen those computer generated images and feel whilst it may not be as crowd-friendly as the ?old lady?, it would offer very much better viewing facilities and hopefully better toilets and catering.
Somehow, no matter what sort of Stadium was built, because it is in Kirkby, it would never be satisfactory.
It would appear our late lamented CEO went well over the top in extolling the virtues of the proposed move. Looking at the proposed move with as unbiased eye as possible, it would seem to me that the credit side outweighs the debit side, i.e. staying at Goodison.
Just to refute any charges of bias, one way or another, I no longer go to matches. At my advanced age, its too much of a hassle. However, I can never lose interest in the club I have supported since I was 8.
ps. i have to travel from the Isle of Man to get to the games which means a ferry (2½-hour boat journey each way) in the morning to Liverpool. The extra SEVEN miles means nothing to the 20 or so blues that travel from here. I just want to see the club preforming well and in a new stadium.
Re the stadium design. You’ve obviously been going to Goodison for many years.
One of the problems that Goodison has on your average match day is to project the singing. Naturally you would expect the board to try and solve this with any new stadium design, regardless of where it is.
However they have chose the worst possible type of End Stand for atmosphere. This is just one example of the lack of thought that has gone into this design.
It is not even a question of money to get a stadium design for atmosphere.
They simply either don’t care or they don’t have a clue.
I dont agree with a word you said about DK, but your a true blue whose opinion deserves respect,
I loved your recollection of travelling to Goodison,
The club’s own projections (surely optimistic in the extreme) are of an extra 10M a year. Even if that were profit not turnover, we will need to pay off the building costs and interest first.
In other words we would be going through all this and the best case scenario is that in 10 to 15 years we’ll get an extra 5 to 10 million a year to spend. Whoopdedoo.
The only reason we are doing it is because it is the only option BK can afford and he doesn’t want to be seen to do nothing.
Nil Satis Nisi Cheapest Option Available
Anyway, I hope all the current machinations surrounding the club at the moment start to make people think.. it isn?t where the club plays, it's football that's important.. it's the survival of the club itself. Read Tim?s thoughts again... it says it all doesn?t it!
1. It will bring masses of investement which will allow Davie to make us contenders again
2. Goodison is falling down
3. We won’t get a safety certificate soon
4. If we stay we will end up like Tranmere. This isn’t my opinion this is from Tom Cannon who knows more than any of you.
5. Kirkby will allow us to tap into the corporate market which will give us loads of cash as per point 1.
Surely everyone can see how badly we need this??
What a load of pure unadulterated unsubstantiated drivel you write.
1 - where is the mass investment you talk about? At best you are guessing.
2 & 3 Goodison is not falling down and will get its safety certificates - regulations only apply to new build stadia. A poster from here took it up with the H&S authorities who confirmed there is no danger of GP not getting its certificates under both current and planned laws.
4 How will we end up like Tranmere? Are people going to stop going to GP -- I think not -- more will stop going to DK.
5 The Corporate Market will not want to go to Kirkby -- believe me. They will only want to go to the likes of Liverpool and Manchester -- Corporate entertaining like the much vaunted but not to be aditonal revenue from non-football events will be worth diddly squat.
We need Kirkby like we need another hole in the head -- wake up and see the reality. We badly need for it to be called in -- Billy Bullshitter can then follow His Lieness out the door and maybe just maybe his successor will be someone with business acumen who knows how to run a business properly. Whoever the hell heard of a Chairman admitting he didn't know what was going on in his business (as the Bullshitter did recently!!!).
He is the biggest problem we have ever had -- and that includes Agent Johnson in my opinion.
You are an idiot.
I see the Knowsley advert now to attract the International jetset :
NEW YORK, TOKYO, KIRKBY
I?m thinking we might stand a better chance in the European capital of culture, that is if anyone at the club can be arsed to promote us within the city!
I also worry it is single-line track, so once one train has passed Rice Lane, another can’t go past until the first has returned in the other direction (happy to be corrected on this point).
Yes the motorways are close by, but it is the parking that is the problem. Tesco won’t want thousands of cars blocking its car park on saturday afternoons, so they will become a clampers’ paradise as will all the surrounding streets in a far wider zone that GP because a) more supporters will come by car and b) there are fewer car dispersal routes so more need to keep roads free and parking dispersed not concentrated.
I agree GP is ageing, and we need to move or redevelop. However, Kirkby simply isn’t the answer. We still have time to wait, free of exclusivity deals, to work on a better solution.
We need to start thinking big. I’m happy with a Russian billionaire and Kirkby if it means we can seriously challenge the redshite.
I understand a 2 mile exclusion zone from the stadium will apply to parking. The vast majority of car users would have to be bussed in from remote car parks....but there won’t be enough buses.
The transport problem alone should be enough to kill off DK.
On a good day I can see the merits of most of the impassioned arguments, for and against. Neil Pearse makes a very good case for the Yes voters. On the other hand, I align myself emotionally more with the No voters and really appreciate all the effort Tom Hughes and others have put in to keep us appraised of the issues. The lack of money really is the killer but I truly believe the major motivation is to get DK lined up so BK can sell the club. At least the truth of that scenario has finally surfaced. That is for me the only meaningful rationale. This idea that we take on massive debt at a "free" new stadium, for an extra £10M per annum in increased revenue, is total bunkum.
On the other hand, it will be simply horrible to go to Goodison in the shadow of the Silver Spaceship... which makes it imperative that we do something. It just seems that, any way you look at it, Kirkby is the wrong thing for a club of our greatness. For what it?s worth, I voted No.
As for going to the games.... the last game I went to was when a bright young lad from Croxteth walloped an incredible winning goal past David Seamen with a minute to go. I have not gotten over the disappointment and betrayal of his departure and I probably never will. I think both Kenwright and Moyes lied to us over that shameful incident and that did it for me.
So no, I won't be going to games in Kirkby... but not for the usual reasons. I live too far away now anyway (as I think you know already!), so it's kinda moot. But you asked and I answered!
Ignore these twerps they’re simply peddling the desperation Kirkby stuff to help BS Billy line his pockets.
Just read your rejoinder. Bit harsh I thought just picking on me. There’s been enough sensible and constructive dilalogue on this move on this forum alone to create a very long novel
It is getting us nowhere - however much lucid, controlled argument is put forward by either camp, the entrenched positions remain unmoved. I am almost giving up; my ennuie was in response to Alan whose stance (like yours) I can not understand. Kirkby will NOT cure the problems at EFC - it is the wrong move, for the wrong reasons at the wrong time. I couldn’t care less about you Cheshire car travellers and your parking - if that’s selfish, gulity but no more than you who don’t care about those of us lucky enough to be able to walk to Goodison.
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1 Posted 04/08/2008 at 16:51:50
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(1) No suitable pubs for pre-match discussions etc. YES
(2) Leaving Liverpool FC to be the only club to represent the city of Liverpool. YES
(3) The difficulty of access for supporters. YES
I think that about covers it Tim - oh, and of course the Yes vote that was full of lies, the continued lies from BK and KW, the further lies from within the club, more lies from the board......did I mention the lies?
Disclaimer - I never felt lied to at any stage (much)