ToffeeWeb - Season 2008-09

The Mail Bag

Shaken, not stirred..........

Having just waded through the "Getting to Kirby" post. I found my curiosity aroused by Karl Masters's comment on Celtic and Rangers' bond scheme which part-funded their respective team's stadium developments. After a quick Google search I couldn't find too much about those schemes but found a shed load of stuff about how the Barcodes' fans were shafted by the (then) Directors after shelling out £1k each in a bond scheme in exchange for guaranteed seats/season tickets for the next few seasons.

My point is, does anybody know much about the validity of such schemes where Everton are concerned? If plausible, I would be very interested to gauge what level of personal investment Toffeeweb readers might be prepared to put into EFC? Try to keep this honest if possible & I apologise in advance if this subject has been covered before.

To start it all off (& subject to T's & C's) I'm in for £2k. Another 29,999 matching me and we've got 60 mil - then we can either buy out BK, redevelop Goodison, move to Kirby or almost buy Ronaldo etc etc etc! I know this is hypothetical, but I'd much rather explore possible ways to positively influence our situation than waste energies ranting about it!
Peter Stone, Cannes, France Posted 04/08/2008 at 21:27:47

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Stuart Keam
1 Posted 05/08/2008 at 06:23:24

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Good concept Peter, only draw back I could see is that depending on how many years they guarantee your season ticket for is they don’t get revenue for the 30,000 or so seats for that time. From my basic understanding of how our current loans are sturctured the club has already used the future revenue from the 30,000 seats as colateral for existing debt. In effect they would have to take you 60 mil and use it to pay off existing debt first and would only have the left overs to spend.

Gavin Ramejkis
2 Posted 05/08/2008 at 07:01:41

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It depends on what the outcome would be, if it’s a buyout then apparently the current structure makes it difficult to do so. If it’s raising money via a share option release then again a non-starter as BK and the rest of the board as per the Tesco documents refuse to dilute their shareholdings. It’s an obvious way to raise cash but many wouldn’t trust the current board to organise a village fayre (me included) never mind what they would do with millions of pounds.

Shaun Brennan
3 Posted 05/08/2008 at 11:08:26

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Persoannly, finding 30,000 people to throw in 2k is a bit of wishful thinking.

isn’t that paying your season ticket for the following years upfront? then we’ll be short on income for yealry budgets as season tickets have already been paid for.

could you trust the current board with your money?

Michael Dawson
4 Posted 05/08/2008 at 12:13:36

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Stuart, I don’t think the idea is that people entering the scheme actually get free season tickets in return for their investment - rather that they will simply have a guaranteed opportunity to purchase one for a number of years. I think the idea is that they will be given priority over other fans, and when it comes to buying tickets for away games or cup finals (hah!) fans who have joined the bond scheme will get first refusal.

How, when and if you would actually see any of your cash ever again is a different matter.

Karl Masters
5 Posted 05/08/2008 at 12:48:24

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I confess to not knowing all the technicalities of Celtic’s scheme. However, it is the concept itself that I am advocating.

Celtic definitely did something along those lines whilst for Rangers it was the Rangers Pools in the 70’s that funded turning Ibrox from an enormous sea of rotting terraces into the first big all seater in Britain. That was driven by the memory of people being crushed to death in 1971 when a stairway collapsed I believe.

These days we would have to set up a lottery or similar with the specific and sole intent of redeveloping Goodison. It would take time to raise money and we don’t have the Religious Zealot card that Rangers had back then to attract cash. However we do now have the Internet.
Allegedly there are 900,000 Evertonians worldwide and with all the de-population of Liverpool over the years this is quite possibly so.

If only 1 in 10 ( 90,000 ) played a weekly lottery via the Internet, putting £1 in for a top prize of say £20,000, the Club would clear £70,000 a week which is nearly £3.6m a year.

Not enough in itself, but added in to a bond scheme or similar and maybe a share issue too the total starts to grow and would certainly generate enough money to service a loan to do the first stand.

There are no quick, easy answers and that is what we have to remember. It took Villa 10 years to redevelop Villa Park and the oldest stand there is now only from 1975 and they are now looking at replacing that.

Where there is a will, there is definitely a way. Redeveloping your stadium is hardly radical is it? Everybody else has done it. Even Arsenal and Man City did a fair bit before they found the RIGHT opportunity to move.

I have never believed that moving is the only option. What it is though is the easy, lazy option and it amounts to a short term fix for a long term problem. Like most things in life the chickens come home to roost in the end. 30 years of complacently not doing much to Goodison has now caught up with us, but with a bit of patience and determination we can redevelop. I know for a fact that the Council would encourage this and expanding the footprint is achievable so that only leaves the money and the drive. The money CAN be found if the people in cntrol have the drive and ability to make it happen. You can draw your own conclusions on that one....

Stuart Keam
6 Posted 05/08/2008 at 13:10:16

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Thanks Michael,

So basically you purchase first right of refusal over a seat.

I initially read Peter’s post like an offer a aussie rules club had down here about 5 years back. Where if you paid $10K up front you got a season ticket for life, based on prices at the time you were paying 25 years up front for life membership.

John Clarke
7 Posted 05/08/2008 at 14:29:22

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We are looking at putting in the cash, basically as a gift. Maybe you get a piece of paper with, thanks from EFC. It’s worth a grand.

Karl Masters mentioning the weekly lottery, I’m one of the 900,000 worldwide supporters. I think a lottery, via the website is a good idea. It’s the kind of thing they should be trying out.

I live in Australia. I’d gladly pay my grand and weekly lotto money if it meant Everton could redevelop Goodison Park.
And maintain the current position in or about the top six, whilst development is in progress.

Roy Coyne
8 Posted 05/08/2008 at 15:01:59

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I would be happy to pay the cash my only concern who at the club oversees it to ensure that its used for its intention as Everton are financially wise not run very well

Karl Masters
9 Posted 05/08/2008 at 14:54:30

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I have mentioned before that a name brick in a new stand or stadium commemorating us as individuals would be another option.

You could either have a ’limited edition’ costing say £1,000 a head and maybe over time get 5,000 fans to get one. That’s £5m. Or you could go down the People’s Club route and have 50,000 of them for £100 a time. Same return. You would add the cost of the brick itself to the bill so you could say that

1/ You helped pay for the stand/stadium

2/ You literally helped build it

3/ Your name is there forever with perhaps your date of birth and town you live in added on to personalise it.

There’s loads you can do. It all adds up. As somebody once said, ’Every little helps’..... :D

Karl Masters
10 Posted 05/08/2008 at 15:13:01

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Roy Coyne.

I would envisage it being paid into a totally separate fund protected from misuse by laws similar to Pension Funds. Again, I confess, I don?t know the technicalities, but it can?t really be so hard to do can it?

Personally, I reckon £1k is about the limit of your average fan, but for that you should get something whether it be a bond on your season ticket (your name on the seat would be cool) giving you say10% off it for the next 10 years and first refusal on seats in any new stand. Or a name brick, or both, or any of the other ideas that are not so hard to think of.

If you could get 50,000 of those it would be great, but even half that would give you £25m and enough to rebuild the Bullens Road with all manner of corporate facilities to help fund the next stage.

Anthony Jenkins
11 Posted 05/08/2008 at 17:40:06

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If a list of names are needed count me in. Just a name for consideration of holder of money. Think his name is Tom Cannon. He is some sort of money boff who is always on radio and telly advising money situations. And he is a blue. Just a thought...

Ray Robinson
12 Posted 05/08/2008 at 21:09:10

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How many people can afford £1,000 when they can barely scrape the money together for a season ticket or are struggling with the mortgage payments? And because I pay for my son’s ticket while he is a student, does this mean I’d need to shell out £2,000?

A weekly lottery seems like a good idea though.

Peter Stone
13 Posted 05/08/2008 at 22:46:32

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These responses are pretty much what I expected and hoped. The underlying frustration many of us fans feel is not only the lack of real information we have on EFC?s current affairs, but the fact that we are powerless to do anything about it! I?m sure much of the vitriol that sometimes appears on this site stems from this perceived lack of control.

Thanks to Michael, Lyndon et al we have the only EFC forum where intelligent discussions on relevant issues are the norm not the exception. I?d be fascinated to see if the guys might set up a poll just to gauge what the reaction would be amongst ToffeeWeb readers - and to see (hypothetically at least) what amount we might raise on such a bond scheme. Perhaps it might act as a barometer to see if the process should be extrapolated and put to fans across the world?

Obviously somebody with knowledge of how these type of schemes work would have to clarify the process. After many of the negative posts recently, I also think it?s constructive to refocus energies into looking at possible lateral solutions to the club?s lack of finance. I really meant what I said - I?m in for £2k...

Rezzie Flanders
14 Posted 05/08/2008 at 23:28:55

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This would seem to be a variant of the PSL (permanent seat license) ploy used in many US cities to facilitate stadium development. Google PSL or visit the Wikipedia site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Seat_License

Mind you, if this goes in, your 20+ year ticket holder will get to pony up for the right to buy his tickets. "Choke up 2 grand and then get your cash in for the tix." Sounds like a fine recipe for cries of bloody murder for an established team like Everton. These are most effective in cranking up a new franchise in a new market, or in markets with a huge backlog of people lined up to buy tickets beyond the regular ticket holders. Just a thought.