"I’ve never found it so hard to pick the teams that are going to be involved in a relegation battle"

Stoke, Hull, WBA and probably Fulham and Wigan. Perhaps Bolton as well. It’s pretty obvious to be honest... I’ll eat my shoes (both of them!) if the three teams relegated do not come from these six teams.

Simon, if Everton do move to Kirkby, the few fans that do go will have no history to sing about, because in a few years time they will be known as the Kirkby or Knowsley blues! Nickname?? How about " The Bikers!"

Simon Walker wrote "I?ve never found it so hard to pick the teams that are going to be involved in a relegation battle".
Unless an unexpected team implodes due to internal problems (ie. Newcastle, West Ham, maybe even us !!) then it will probably be Hull, WBA and Bolton. For some odd reason I think that Stoke will just survive but I don’t know why !!

If I was looking to buy a Premier League team I think a team which was still looking to update their stadium is the way I’d be heading.

A team with an older/outdated stadium (eg Everton) would have a smaller asking price than one with a brand new stadium (eg Manchester City).

I would then have a blank canvas to put together a new stadium package and reap the financial rewards of doing so.

I am completely bemused by these constant references to the incredible goodison atmosphere. This held true in the past but not over the last 5 years in my opinion. Of course there have been some incredible matchday atmoshpheres in recent years, but only when the occasion demanded it, and I believe any set of fans would have delivered the same. Villareal sticks out as the best atmosphere I can remember, but rightly so as it was a CL qualifier.

I can barely remember a home game in the last 2 years where the away fans haven’t made some reference to it being quiet/shit support/etc, and I believe that is linked to a number of late goals we have conceded as the players sit back and become nervous as they feel the crowd’s anxiety. The away team then picks up the impetus and drives forward.

I believe the main reason is the disallusionment of fans with everything going on at the club, most notably kirkby, which has caused a clear divide. So for me, the atmoshere will remain shit until we get ourselves sorted, and this removes the "goodison roar" from the argument.

Happy, united fans will sing and make noise - I can’t see this happening until the stadium debate is cleared up. We are clearly not staying at Goodison long term (regardless of Kirkby), so there will be never be unity while we wait for our future to be resolved. As long as it is resolved in a way that fits the expectations of the vast majority of fans (Kirkby clearly doesn’t), we will become a happy singing rabble.

But either way, the goodison roar is, IMHO, now an irrelevance.

Are the Saudi type investors looking to buy a football club or a ground? They don’t need the money making faciliities as these super rich are looking for a sporting plaything rather than a financial return.

Unless its a Gillette&Hicks/Glazer type investor who want to make money but will make us European Champions in the processes then I don’t thing the ground is of any real concern. If one of the latter types did invest in us though that carries the obvious risk of the club being saddled with debt for the privilliage (New Ground to attract them and then paying for THEIR purchase of the club).

Everyone is envious of what’s happened at City this week but you have to be clear on what type of investor you’re after. A Saudi sugar daddy, in the real sense, or someone who’s going to only bring their so called business acumen to the table.

Finally I fear that the 12th man at KFC’s ground might actually relate to the number of people through the turnstyle for kick-off with everyone else trying to navigate the Krypton factor style transport arrangements, before giving up and going home, and quite possibly staying there!!!

Ron,

I’m sorry, but no Saudi investor will buy everton while the best hospitality he can offer to his mates and colleagues, business contacts is a tent on goodison road.

No chance.

I love goodison for sentimental reasons the same as the next man, but for a saudi its about status and impressing friends.

For these guys, entertaining at goodison would be like taking a girl to the chippy on a first date.

Nick,

I take your point but from the few floodlit images we’ve seen of DK we’d be having to trust BK and the board to deliver something special that’s not apparrent at this point. (I think we’re back to rabbits and hats here!)

If they don’t deliver then I’d fear that first date would be under the smoking shelter of the Johnny Todd!

From what weve seen so far Kirkbys not going to be good enough either is it!!

Man City don’t own the ground the City Council do, so when the buy out happened I assume they bought the club and their assets (players, marketing etc) and also agreed to clear debts through interest free loans etc

As such City have to pay the City Council rent that is based on gate takings. Two years ago City were made (by the council) to offer concessions in terms of prices so they could pay the rent. I think investors on this scale would not be put off by goodison. Trevor Skempton points the way forward in another thread. But hey why listen to someone who has experience of redeveloping football grounds in inner cities when you have the man who produced blood brothers to listen to

Man City dont own their Stadium. Therefore it wasnt included in the purchase price.

It's a bit of a moot point, you buy a club who do own a new stadium, you pay a higher asking price. Or you buy us cheaper and have to spend a fortune redeveloping or building a whole new stadium.

Generally less hassle or risk if you buy the club that has the newset and best facilities to ensure a return on your investment without further outlay.

Looking at the buy out of Man City or Chelsea as a profitable investment is clearly ludicrous ? football has rarely been much other than an investment in a favourite hobby for those who can afford it. If I had an interest in racing fast cars and had a budget of £10 million to indulge myself, I could buy a range of top sports cars and organise race meets to speed around a private track with my mates until the novelty wore off. At the end of it, I would have spent the money and had a fantastic time but all that was left to show for it would be a few devalued cars and some great memories. Why should Roman Abramovich or the new owners of Man City etc. feel any different? It makes no real odds whether there?s a new stadium or not, or whether the club is worth £10m, £100m or £1,000m, it?s a bit of fun with their spare cash.

Football is not a profitable business; BK is not a particularly good businessman because he?s investing with his heart and not his head. His decisions are coloured by sentiment and result in statements which are based on dreams rather than reality. God knows, these forums are full of such statements every single day. Not necessarily deliberate lies, just wishful thinking stated as fact.

As a business, investment in football doesn?t stand up. What other business has 35,000 paying customers investing £30+ a week and one customer (Sky) paying £1m per week? Of these, only Sky treat their investment as a profit centre, broadcasting football games worldwide in order to maximise advertising revenue. The major assets to them are the Sky4, the rest of the league is really an inconvenience which is tolerated as part of the conditions set up by the governing bodies of football and the national broadcasting regulators. Also, as an owner, you get very little say in the product itself, that?s generally left to one man, the manager, who may or may not be capable of delivering the goods.

With EFC throughout the stadium debate, the single consistent feature has been the ?city boundary? argument. It is completely beyond me that one section of the support has hung on to a single aspect of the case and stuck rigidly to it. It seems to some that we should put up with any old shit as long as the team plays within the city limits. Such a blinkered view has proven divisive and frustrating, preventing reasoned debate to the point where a stalemate seems the only remaining option. Tesco are not investing in Everton, they are investing in retail development. Putting a football stadium in the centre of it was surely to help in obtaining planning permission (community spirit etc.). That?s now gone tits-up due to the actions of various self-interest groups, clearly leaving BK et al up shit creek without a paddle.

If a rich businessman came along tomorrow with £1,000m as a ?gift? but wanted to move the club to a site he happened to own near the M57 in Prescot, I believe that many of those KEIOC doubters would be arguing that Prescot is really in the city because it?s in Merseyside and has an ?L? postcode, even if the council boundary maps say differently. It wasn?t until the stadium debate started that many people realised that Kirby wasn?t part of Liverpool, after all, the first line of the now abandoned tram scheme was destined to go there!

BK has stated, not for the first time, that his shares are up for sale. If anyone had approached him and been turned away why would they not have gone public with the story even if BK didn?t? The problem is EFC are looking for a benefactor, not an investor. If one comes along (which is a definite reality) you can forget ?consultations? on the ground move, the club will move out of GP to the easiest place that planning permission can be granted, regardless of the city boundaries. Liverpool Council, EFC and the fans need to realise this and start putting the energy that?s been devoted to ?Keeping Everton Out Of Kirby? into finding an alternative site in the city before it?s out of their hands.

Ron,

I?m sorry, but no Saudi investor will buy Everton while the best hospitality he can offer to his mates and colleagues, business contacts is a tent on Goodison Road.

No chance.

Actually we are quite into tents. It?s a sort of retro thing.

Can we not just move to bloody Kirkby and bung someone on the mapping commitee a large brown envelope to redraw the boundaries so the stadium falls back inside the City limits.

Problem solved with all the halfwits who cant see past the emotive location issue. We can wait for a billionaire to snap us up then get a bit on investment in from him to put in a tramway from County Rd to the new ground to sort out the access issue!!!.

...and yes toungue is in cheek

City got bought for £210m.
To buy Everton and bring us to the standard of City (off the pitch) would cost £500m and this is how.

1. Buy out BK aprox £100m
2. Pay off our debt aprox £70m
3. Redevelop Goodison aprox £230m
4. I?m not naive enough to think it?s as simple as that and expect that my figures are probably way out, also extra costs involved with land purchase etc for GP I?d say add on between £50m-£100m extra.

That brings the grand total to between £450m-£500m debt free and a top stadium. So would you chose us and have to spend close to £500m before you even start buying players or would you buy a club like City and only spend £210m?And you wonder why we haven?t found our own sugar daddy?

Darren

You are right your maths are load of shite get a job at Everton you would fit in well

August 2007 - Evertons input into DK estimated by EFC at 10-15M, June 2008 Evertons input estimated at 78M

So you think I should trust the figures coming out of goodison now? Read
His watch has seen the family silver sold off piece by piece, mortgage us to the hilt, and not win anything. His business acumen has seen an eradication of any visible marketing strategy within the CIty and abandon the City to the Reds.

But at least hes a Blue

Ed, as you are so clever then, explain how you would have provided finances to be able to spend about £20m a season on transfers as well as ever increasing wages and all other costs that go along with it.

Marketing - well on the grounds we had a store in Liverpool City Centre that was losing money, then what was the point of pursuing it.

Darren - your figures may be hypothetical, but even if they are wildly inaccurate as far as re-building Goodison is concerned, the rest is nearly £200m without so we are still talking about £300m before anybody thinks about money to buy players with - so oyur point is still a perfectly valid one.

Paul Martyn,
"If anyone had approached him and been turned away why would they not have gone public with the story even if BK didn?t?"

I’ve said this before on this site. Most investors have a few clubs in mind. They go with their first choice initially and if things don?t work out. They move onto their 2nd or 3rd options. By going public about failing to get hold of the 1st or 2nd options will not help you take over your 3rd choice. How many fans of the 3rd club will be particularly pleased with their new owners knowing they really wanted to buy Club A or B?

MY question is what makes BK fit to decide who the ?right? buyer is?
Typical BK dramatic quote ?We need a BILLIONAIRE??No we don?t! Just someone will wealth, knowledge of the game, and business acumen.

Why would an investor need £300M to buy us???
These are the kind of figures/guess work KW would be proud of.

Surely £60M to buy EFC and take control.
£40M to clear any debt.
£80M to start the building work of a new stadium.
The rest of the stadium could be paid by;
Mortgage against Season ticket sale,
Selling GP and Bellfield,
Naming rights of new Stadium,
Linking up with a partner company.

Then give Moyes money to spend. When you add up the above it’s comparible with what Ashley paid for Newcastle, and Sinawatra paid for City.

The corporate hospitality is velly good at the GOODISON SUPPER BAR..so they say.

Chris

Sorry I mean Einstein, but what you and Darren indulge yourself is not Mathematics but is more akin to a work of fiction. If Kenwright wants to sell (he does, doesn?t he) well one thing he could do to generate a sale and attract investment would be to make it known the minimum he would accept for his initial investment. I don?t think he will do that will he? What do you think he is owed 20/30/40/50 Million then we might see what a big blue he is? You see he?s not just a fan is he? even though the hapless buffoon claims to be when it suits. Plenty of us have invested our time and money over a lifetime and have never sought any return have we, it is therefore perfectly reasonable to hold him accountable for the numerous fuck ups he has presided over.
Your comments over the lack of marketing in the City defy belief. I am sure you are pleased we have no retail outlet in Liverpool One during our City of Culture year.

Here?s a thought for a lot of blues fans...

Let the board run the club and have trust in them!

If you were a corgi registered plumber would you let Bill Kenwright tell you how to fit a boiler? If you were a builder would you let an accountant build it for you? In other words stick to what you do and let the board who have done ok by us get on with it

We have too many fans who think they know it all and sadly they don't. I'm pretty happy with the board's answers at the EGM, we are going to be up shit creek if Kirkby doesn't happen. No-one with any business acumen will buy a club that is in millions of debt and also needs £200 million to build a stadium.

Kirkby = investment. As for Arabs... no thanks. A Randy Lerner would be great for us?someone with plenty cash but who isn't so radical.

I will be sad to leave Goodison but, as the board say, it's the way forward unfortunately and we must stick together against the Liverpool Council and other people opposed.

Of course we must always trust those in charge. David you assume they must know more than the people who have the temerity to challenge them. Your analogy holds fuck all substance I am afraid
Would you allow a theatre impresario run a football club simply because he was a fan?
We have no trust in them as they are deceitful and incompetent, yes they are not the only Football Club Board who are about useful as a Chocolate Teapot but the fact is I don?t follow Newcastle or West Ham I follow Everton and we are in a huge mess and I am afraid it is our friend Bill who is ultimately responsible. It?s called being the Leader you take the glory (and by god does he with his sickening media sound bites) and you take the responsibility when things go wrong.
With your attitude of the master knows best the working man would still be waiting for the right to vote. I am afraid when people see incompetence allied to dubious communication strategies people have a habit of asking awkward questions and getting shirty. This does not matter whether you are Bill Kenwright, Gordon Brown or the board of Northern Rock.
Don?t you get it? I don?t want to be critical of our board but when they make our club a laughing stock it is vital to do so.

To all, thanks for the replies, to Davey Jones I’m kinda with you, the only thing is that I hate being in limbo which is what it feels like right now, almost like "go on board, do it, make a good job of it, don’t make it so that it gets called in for inquiry".. doh, too late. Just frickin do whatever’s required to make the greatest club in the world attractive to investors, and do it fast, cos it’s clear that us football supporters have the patience of a 5 year old