I?ve certainly been to better attended EGM and AGM?s yet the sponsors of it told us it was very important, obviously most shareholders thought otherwise. And what happened to the protest outside? It was none existent! I think a few KEIOC supporting fanatics will soon realise that their pet hate is only shared by a minority of Evertonians as proved yet again tonight. [Posted as "Dave Harrison"]

I was worried to hear Kenwrights comments of "Every year it becomes more difficult to find the money. It is impossible to continue in the financial way we are at the moment.", I read in to that, we cannot continue each summer like we have with AJ, Yakubu now Fellaini to break our transfer record each summer and maybe we are having to sell to buy or balance the books, maybe we are mortgaged to the absolute maximum now.

Why wasn’t the Sainsbury’s enableing project in Walton Hall Park brought up.

Of course he wants away, that's why wants us to go to Kirkby, increase the value of the club, (short term) sell and then fuck off into the distance with his nice little windfall.

Rich Jones, do you honestly believe what you are saying? I am no Kenwright fan and think that the man is far from competent when it comes to matters of running a football club. But I refuse to believe these rather inane and ill thought out slanderous remarks regarding his motives for project Kirkby. I honestly believe that he thinks he is doing what he thinks is best for Everton FC. I dont happen to agree with him but surley he cant be doing it for the money...can he?

Interesting that Moysie was their to support Bill. I thought Robert Elstone ran rings around the anti-Kirkby lobby too with his explanations. LCC have gone quiet and are only talking about groundshare. For pro-Kirkby supporters like I am its looking good.

With respect, no-one is going to buy the club if they think its value is going to drop soon after. I m not a fan of Kirkby but I see no better alternatives and I don't think anyone else does realistically.

Shaun he has an asset that he will sell for more than he bought it for wont he? or is Everton worth less than the £20 million it was worth when he bought it?

It is worth more because the club is in far better shape than it was when he took over, something which Kenwright deserves a great deal of credit for.

If you truly believe he is only interested in making a profit on selling the club, you are calling him a liar. I’m not a huge Kenwright fan, but I do think he has done right by Everton and is no liar. He just needs to think before he speaks sometimes.

Does anyone else feel the way I feel about tonight’s EGM eg What was the point?

I’m reading that Elstone gave a presentation stating that Kirkby was the only viable option !! What the fuck was he supposed to say ??

What pisses me off is that some Evertonians are happy to be bullshitted and just seem to accept everything that the club says. Bill Kenwright might have done his best but since the ’Fortress Sports Fund’ bollocks I just can’t have him.

The ridiculous appointment of the Fat Controller Wyness from that massive club ABERDEEN , the replacement of loyal staff at the club, the reduction of any Everton stores or merchandise, the failure to raise the extra money for Kings Dock to name but a few. The fact that our chairman lives 250 miles away and doesn’t even spend a day at the club before a home game is just for me ridiculous. And its because of this reason that I believe he has his heart set on Kirkby.

If Bill was around a bit more in THIS CITY he would get a feel for how supporters really feel about Kirkby. If people are honest with themselves ask this question , Is it worth giving up our heritage (first club in the city) to fuel this One City One Club bollocks the redshite are advertising for a poxy 10 mill a year ???

Don’t get me wrong if Kirkby promised us between 50-75 million a year with the manager guaranteed to recieve 30-40 mill kitty each year I’d reluctantly agree that it made sense as we’d be able to compete a bit more but for an extra £10 mill !!! For fucks sake people Man City will be reserves for that amount soon.

I suppose it depends whether or not you are more bothered about a shiny cowshed than your history and heritage. I happen to live in this city and do not want to feel marginalised by supporters of a team that were the equivalent of GRIMSBY TOWN before Shankly took over. However, that will happen unless this move is stopped. I pray that the Government do one decent thing in the tenure and that’s fuck this project off.

I accept that people may totally disagree with me however, it is my opinion. It just does not sit easy with me that we would leave the city for such a small amount not to mention the lies about the actual cost.

This brings me back to my original question of it being a waste of time to have an EGM around this subject as the club and Bill will do what they like. I just wish our supporters would make a proper stand and drive this idea into the ground and force the club into running the club properly. We need to replace Kenwright by attratcting an investor. It can’t be too dificult as Man Shitee have had TWO there in 13 MONTHS !!

Anyone got Bill Gates’s number ?? Or perhaps DIC or a rich Russian ???

Just want to apologise about a couple of spelling mistakes as I got a bit carried away !!

Nil Satis

I agree with Barry on a lot of points there.

Also, I find it very hard to believe that the likes of Portsmouth, West Ham, QPR, Villa & now City can attract enormously wealthy foreign investment, yet Kenwright has "had his shares for sale since day one"

He is most definitely a Billy Bullshiner!

I think the reality of the move is, from a business sense, in today’s current economic climate, that to compete we have to move. It’s true to say that Bill will be in a better position to sell, he will have a club capable to generate more income via ticket sales, the real basis of the club’s finances (appologies if over egging the point), he has (in my opinion) an excellent manager in Moysie and the neucleus of a very good team - perfect for building success on - something an investor would look for.

The fact the premiership clubs have a stable and guaranteed income from the TV deals deals (till 2010 or 2011) & sponsorship. When you combine this with a financially viable club infrastructure, in the shape of the ground - we would be ripe for takeover. In my view, the best possible outcome, in terms of competing with, for example, Man City or Chelsea now, this is what we need - or how will we compete?
Kirby is the most likely way with which to make the club a going business concern.

This would make the club more attractive to potential investors, who would be able to invest funds in a size with which to compete with the likes of Man City, Chelsea, Man U, Aston Villa etc etc. Would we have to spend nail bitting nights on the 31st August each year fretting over a threadbare squad and praying we get someone half decent in (and seeing Nash flash up on the screen.....you know what I mean!!). Can’t believe the bloke in India....Santosh respect to you !!

The fact is, however unpalatable, we need to move, we need to move fast or we will be admiring our club’s history from the Championship of Div 1 ! I accept though that this could remove the heart and soul from the club - going to the Emirates last year compared to the atmosphere at Goodison or Highbury before the move.

Is really an alternative, can the fans make the move the work?


Is there in reality a viable alternative?

Seriously mates, especially those Anti BK sections, have you lots ever put yourself in BK’s shoes and thought for once "Damn! I am running out of money. All my savings has gone into this club"?

Think mates, think! Most of us can’t even manage our own car and home loans, not to mention credit card bills, do you think it’s any easier for BK to manage EFC’s finances?

So Kirby vs Goodison is the argument. Unless we all want to MOVE ON into the new era of football, Kirby is the only solution that will give us a Modern and better capacity stadium (and it’s much much cheaper than redeveloping goodison), OR we remain in Goodison to "preserve" our heritage and remain a mediocre club compared to the likes of even MAN CITY et. al.

Be realistic, and move forward. Why do we keep hanging on to the past? When the past isn’t gonna drive us forward anymore?

Lads
I have never read such utter drivel in my life.



Ben Jones
Bill is not a liar !!

Are you for real?

Every word the man utters is a lie.

He doesnt only con the supporters but he’s conned his rich pals into supporting him too.

His list of lies is legend and the only crap that Elstone (his new mouthpiece) can come out with is LCC didnt give them any viable options and it will cost 230 million to redevelop GP.

We know for a fact that that’s utter crap because Sainsbury expressed an interest in jointly developing WHP but EFC poopooed that idea and secondly we have had engineering experts and architects on here stating that GP can be redeveloped for similar costs to Kirkby.

And as for looking for investment 24/7 for 8 years.If you’ve swallowed that one you must be dumb.

Whoever said he put his savings into the club also needs to get his facts straight.

Bullshit Billy has never put one cent of his own money into EFC.He did buy his shares but there’s also some doubt as to where some of that money came from.

Now having reduced our income,mortgaged or sold off all our assets and created record debts he wants to sell up!!

Please........... the man is a total actor and not a very good one at that.

And if you’re all happy with the way the "upstairs’ of our club has been run for the last 8 years you are easily pleased.

Fact

under Peter Johnson we won the FA cup and redeveloped the park end.

Yes he let Joe Royle go after listening to a section of supporters moaning about him and then the team and results went South.

Fact

under Billy liar we’ve won FA and not spent a bean on GP in 8 years.

And what happens if we lose Moyes?

Gentlemen, a few observations;

Most of the more vocal contributors last night were on proxys (or is it proxies?)...and not actual shareholders....make of that what you will but simply lots of shareholders didnt bother turning up.

If you are a "Moyes" fan then trust me, nothing could have hastened his exit quicker than the obvious dislike shown to his boss by some of the contributors. If you dont like Moyesy then you will be punching the air in joy.

Finally, as I said in the opening statement, I felt sorry for the kenwright guy, he looks drawn, tired and pissed off. I do not trust this board but do believe he wants away....and as soon as he can.

Observations only guys. I have been to lots of these SH meetings and I have never felt that Bill was looking to jump ship. There were none of the smiles, jokes and usual Bill "effects" on his audience. Just gave the impression he is out the door as soon as he can find it!!

...but simply lots of shareholders didnt bother turning up.

And a good many were agitated and motivated enough by the issue to secure proxies, turn up and make themselves heard. Given my personal opposition to Kirkby and acknowledgement of what?s at stake, I?m glad they were suitably energised to make the Board listen to them. For me, seeing as the minority shareholders were outvoted anyway, it doesn?t matter whether the opposition to DK is coming from shareholders or other ordinary match-going fans as long as it?s coming from somewhere.

Jay Harris - you must be the only Evertonian who has a good thing to say about Peter Johnson.You fail to mention in giving him the credit for redeveloping the Park End that the original plan was for a two tier stand. There are several PJ facts that you fail to mention.
1. How about the sale of Duncan Ferguson ? Done without the knowledge or approval of the manager Walter Smith.
2. The transfer money that was available for Walter Smith in the close season of 1998 but within a couple of months was suddenly "unavailable" focing the manager to go for "cut price" deals e.g. David Weir,Scott Gemmil and loan signing of Kevin Campbell. The fact that these signings were good is to Smith’s credit.
3. Most of the players bought by Walter Smith in the summer of ’98 e.g. Materazzi,Dacourt had to be sold.
4. Not sure where PJ lives but I know that after the sale of Duncan - surprise,surprise PJ was not seen at Goodison again
5. One I nearly forgot - PJ maintained a financial interest in Tranmere, which is against FA rules and that nearly got us thrown out of the FA Cup
6. " Agent Johnson" - usually I don’t take much notice of the Kop - but some truth in that banner I fear.
7. The pathetic attempt to sign Nigel Martyn.
8. The treatment of Joe Royle in March 1997.
9. He was suspected of taking money from EFC for his own business.
If you are that fond of PJ I suggest you follow him back to Prenton Park.
I do NOT think that Kenwright is without fault - but I do believe that his heart is in the right place. I would rather have him as chairman - even if he lives 200 or so miles away from Goodison. How far do those Arabs live from Eastlands ? Kenwright wants the best for Everton, he doesn’t always get it right to put it mildly - but let’s not doubt that he is an Evertonian - he wants to do the best for the club that he loves. City fans are overjoyed at these Arabs with all their zillions and billions - but will they still be there in 8- 10 years time. Kenwright has been on the board through good times and bad.I don’t think it was a money making exercise for him. His biggest fault - and some of you can’t bring yourselves to admit it is pure and simple - he is not rich enough. So cut the crap and own up to it - that’s why you don’t like Kenwright - he hasn’t got enough money. If you’ve got the dosh what does it matter if you are corrupt like good old Thaksin ? I am sure some of you would have welcomed him with open arms - any Chinese billionares out there ? Whats a few human rights violations matter when you can buy our club.

If our great chairman has his shares for sale and has been working 24/7 to find a new owner why then can city find two owners in 12 months?
BK is like Walter Mitty
NTL deal
Fortress Sport
Kings Dock
All fantasy - the guy has now been found out since Phillip Green will not put his hand in his pocket any longer.

As its stands at present I?m not a shareholder but I was very close to purchasing 10 shares last year through Blankstone Sington but was advised not too, purely on the basis that apart from the sentimental value they are worthless. This sums up the sorry state of affairs that we find ourselves in, I back a move 100% and Kirkby at present is the only option and its about time some of the critics of BK and KEIOC came up with some solid alternatives otherwise just accept the predicament we are in, we have no money or indeed cash flow and if you have any idea how to run a business then you will understand this severally hinds and progress a company can make and means you can only plan short term not long term. To me the problems a clear as daylight, without investment on a large scale then this current state will be the norm, accept reality it?s the only way its makes sense.

Michael Brien the only thing BK has done of ANY worth whatsoever is to employ David Moyes and that appointment has kept the spotlight off him. Everton FC as a business is in catastrophic failure and any business in that situation is the responsibility of it’s Chairman and Board. BK was on the board during the dark days of Peter Johnson so must have been well aware of what was going on behind closed doors. He has also been the head of Everton for the last eight years and responsible for each and every atrocious business decision.

Step back for a moment and think logically if you will. I’m no fan of BK as these pages testify but the evidence is carved in stone over the last eight years.

The club’s off field activities are decided by the board and implemented by the CEO; these are almost laughable now in terms of any income generation. Appointment of senior staff such as the CEO is again the responsibility of the board, our last two CEOs have spectacularly resigned and been sacked/resigned; the right men in the first place?

The litany of lies; not even formulated via spin doctors in a PR Department but most straight from the Chairman’s own mouth.

Far lesser clubs finding investment and buyers; are QPR and Man City and Portsmouth genuinely that more attractive to take overs or were they just unlike Everton genuinely available for takeover rather than investment on the chairman’s terms?

Finally how does the hostility towards Bill Kenwright suddenly translate to David Moyes will now leave as a direct result? I would hazard a guess that David Moyes was requested to attend the EGM as a company employee rather than off his own initiative. the contract he has remains unsigned just as it did before the EGM so that can’t be used as an excuse for it remaining unsigned; surely whatever is going on behind closed doors - read we have funds to the honesty last night of we are broke.

Maybe I’m naive or just missing something but what about all the logistical & parking problems? What about the very basic design? What about the fact that the details given at the ballot were not the reality? These were the issues that I believed were to be brought up after reading Mark Grayson’s interview in The Echo. Were they not brought up and if they were what were the responses? Apart from the fact that they’re moving the Club from the City weren’t these the issues that caused the most problems?

Some solid answers = ’we can’t tell you - commercial sensitivities". Trotted out in relation to the exclusivity deal and forward projections of loss of revenue when looking at the GP redevelopment option - yes, very solid answers - stonewall-esque in fact. And £78m for one new Bullens Road Stand - chuckle - must be the gold leaf being used throughout and the vibro-massage chairs being provided.

’Network Rail will have contingency plans’ - SDG rep well out of her depth.
>
On numerous ocasions the Board and their represenatives were speechless - unable to supply coherent answers to cogent, well informed questions questions.

Bill looked tired and emotional throughout.

Carter -comedy act of the evening - admitted that he once asked the RS if they ’wanted to share a joint’. Spliffing idea!

Why do people keep saying that there is no alternative to DK? The most important question that remains unanswered is ’How are the fans going to get to and from the ground?’ Without adequate transportation and parking for the fans it is not a viable option. There are other reasons to oppose but the access question has to be adequately addressed.

I believe that we probably are mortgaged to the hilt. We’ve actually done very well with buying and selling to get where we are, which amazes me that we should pay such an inflated fee for a ’defensive’ midfielder this transfer window.

Yes, it in inconcievable that United, Chelsea, Liverpool, City (twice), Villa, West Ham, Newcastle, Spurs and Portsmouth can be such attractive propositions to new money, whereas Everton, with it’s history, fan base and league performances are consistently overlooked.

But, would you really want to be a billionairres plaything? Would you want a Glazer, a Hicks, a Shiniwatra or an Ashley running our club? Splashing the cash one minute, then axeing the manager within months and flogging players without any respect for team affairs.

Ok, we’re more akin to Arsenal, who have to sell £14m worth of talent each year to pay for their new stadium, but it is still possible, as they have proven, to run a tight ship, play attractive football and compete at the highest level. It does, ofcourse, take a shrewd manager.

With billionairres flooding the league, it will most likely be damaging for the likes of Everton, as players prices become inflated, but only one of those sides can win the league or the champions league each year. Let them throw their toys out of the pram, I’d rather have a club with stability that was built up the honest way.

Gavin - PJ was the owner of the club as well as Chairman. If you think he acted in consultation with the board during his reign then the whole board of Directors at that time - including Philip Carter are guilty as well as Kenwright. That was not the case - as most people know - indeed Walter Smith threatened to resign after the sale of big Dunc - unless the Chairman issued a statement accepting the sale as HIS responsibilty NOT the board but Johnson’s. I forgot to mention Johnson’s treatment of Howard Kendall and HIS rubbbishing of Kendall’s transfers, when a few weeks down the line he pulled the plug on the money for Walter Smith.

Why don’t You step back for a minute or two and take a look at things logically - Kenwright’s biggest failing is that he hasn’t got the financial clout. He is not rich enough. I do not for one second believe Kenwright is without fault - but I think he deserves some credit for saving us from PJ.And I think he tries to do his best for the club.
Also it’s very nice to think about foreign or any investment in a football club. Read between the lines - some of that Foreign mega bucks - mega promise investment comes with a price as Man United and Liverpool will testify. Oh and West Ham too - remember the big promises of more players like Tevez. Wonder what happened there, maybe Alan Curbishley could put you wise as to the joys of foreign investment in a football club.

Jay
"We know for a fact that that?s utter crap because Sainsbury expressed an interest in jointly developing WHP but EFC poopooed that idea"

I assume that came from here http://www.nsno.co.uk/news-3214.html ?

It isn’t difficult to see the limitation in retail support in that plan compared with Kirkby. The result would be an increase in cost for Everton FC which makes the plan inviable - not really difficult to believe.

Is this one of your Kenwright lies? Are the rest so poorly supported?

How about that great lie earlier this summer ’watch this space there is money available’. We now have a £15 million player that the team have been crying out for for years. Is that a lie?

Moving on to your second statement:

"and secondly we have had engineering experts and architects on here stating that GP can be redeveloped for similar costs to Kirkby".

Those plans (http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/goodison/Redeveloped_Goodison_Park.pdf) were for a very small footprint (one third the size of the Kirkby stadium) and were drawn up with no accurate costings, particularly given increasing steel prices over the last year or two - and in my opinion look dreadful.
Is this another lie?? I still think that the club far from lying has failed to emphasise the sheer difference in size we are talking about between these possibilities.

You state the cost of redeveloping GP is £230 whereas the actual cost quoted (without extending the footprint which is what you were comparing it to in the ’Fans’ engineering plans) is £130 million. Was that a lie?

The point is that if what any of us says or writes is exposed to overly critical examination we can expose ’lies’ that are in fact nothing of the sort.

As a shareholder and an anti DK supporter I left last night feeling that few questions had been answered. There were some positives though

1. The committment to at least talk to LCC, although whilst their offer may be land it will not provide funding or enabling development
2. Robert Elstone is a 100% improvement as a CEO. I thought that he handled the presentation and subsequent questions very well.
3. The transport / parking is still nowhere near resolution. The transport specialist (and I didn’t catch her name) was poorly prepared and filled me with little confidence
4. We were catagorically told that the new ground was not of a low standard, although without detailed plans / costing I struggle to understand how this statement could be made.
5. Why was Moyes there? It was not fair on him and tbh he looked very uncomfortable all evening.
6. Can somebody tell me what happened at the end. I gave it until 11.00 (after an hour and a halfs wait despite being told 10 minutes). Was there a behind the scenes altercation as was being suggested by the departing shareholders?
7. The "new" Bullens Rd alternative seemed to have had little thought, and how they came up with a cost for that stand similar to our £ outlay for DK somewhat confused me. Doesn’t that make it >10x as expensive as the Park End?

All in all I thought that the meeting was exactly as I would have expected, and also had Tom Cannon talking bo**ocks - so no surprise there then!
4.

Hello lads, just a question how did the vote to end the exclusivity period end up being FOR - 622 v AGAINST - 20,000+???

How were them votes taken, what were the details of that vote? Anyone know the details??

Have to say i agree with Rich Jones, can’t remember where i read it but if Kirkby goes ahead KW is set to gain £13.6M. I feel sorry fo the guy having to reliquish his club, but he has to look at what is truely best for the club, not the size of his pockets

john Lloyd- the vote is based on the number of shares held by any one individual.

As the board of directors own the bulk of the 26,000 shares between them plus a few others the vote was only ever going to go that way.

Therefore you could say the attempt was futile albeit admirable by those that continue to fight on.

The simple thing is we are in a sort of catch 22 thing..
People say they wouldnt fully trust a mega takeover because naturally they would feel that any moment that billionaire could get fed up and leave the club in a worse state but the biggest problem for Everton is how else do we really have another crack at being successful?.
Yes we have reached some fantastic highs and the bargain signings of players such as Cahill ect have taken the club away from the outragious years of annual relegation battles( WE HOPE) but as I have said they have not been good enough to take us to that next level of winning trophies or being successful again and thats not meant as any ills against the bargain signings because some of those guys would get into most top Premier League teams but as Kenwright states to truly challenge the big teams for honours a billionaire is needed..
Like it or not football is a big big business now and it has been ever since 1992 when Sky TV got its hands on board and with the exception of 1995 the 1990s were spent fighting relegation with us almost going down twice in four years, and that alone says to me why alot of people are now happy and content that we can finish in the top 7 or 8 most seasons but at the same time its as though people are slightly afraid of going into the unknown and that unknown is breaking into the elite clubs bracket.
I know all well and good we finished fourth in 2005 but lets be honest it was a position that didnt tell the story..
We got there because we were very solid and got a season where everything fell right whilst Liverpool had a big interest in the Champions League until May.
We wont get there again but then again nor will most clubs..
Thats why I know in my own heart that we cannot spend every summer having a go at a man that cannot do anymore with the funds he has and thats why that man Kenwright has told everyone what we already know..
Billionaire is the only way to challenge for honours again..

Michael Brien - totally agree with you and especially your comments in the last paragraph. I also dont want to see any form of dodgy businessman come in just because they can flex their muscles in the form of so-called capital. Its nothing but a big ego trip for these guys and a case of "Ive got more money than you" . Football is not going to be any better off because it will not stop the absurd transfer prices and wages. Football fans have a go at the board when they cannot find 15m to buy a player, but they never have a go at the 15 or so players that are taking 15m in wages out of a club each year. Nor do fans moan when 30m is splashed out on 1 player!

John Waugh ? The result was that 26,553 voted against the resolution and 622 voted for, what is not being reported is that on the night the vote was 60/40 in favour of the resolution, it was the major shareholders block vote that secured victory for the board which has endorsed the boards stance that there was to be no show of hands on the night.

Can some people please find out the facts before coming on here going on about the takeovers of clubs like Portsmouth, West Ham, Villa, Man City, etc.

I woudl suggest that some people try finding out what has actually gone on and you will find some interesting information. Let’s have a look at what has happened exactly.

Portsmouth:
Taken over without any major redevelopments of the ground. Redknapp was initially given money to spend on players, but even he has now admitted that they have to balance the books on transfers. The only stadium plans they have given to date is for a MAXIMUM capacity of 36,000

West Ham:
New owner takes over, and they have been relegated. No major stadium redevelopment, but plans have been mooted at expanding one of the stands but this will not go ahead until they can establish themselves as a regular Premier League club - plus Curbishly has just resigned over the board’s involvement in transfers.

QPR:
They were only bought for £20m by owners with a lot of cash (including Bernie Ecclestone) but they have gone on record stating that they will not bankroll the club. Hardly any spending on players and no major stadium redevelopment - and finished in the bottom half of the Championship for the last two seasons.

Aston Villa:
No major stadium redevelopments made since Lerner arrived - plus Villa Park has a larger capcity than Goodison. The club was bought for £100m and planning permission has been received to increase the capacity to 51,000. Stadium redevelopment looks like it will go ahead but at little comparative cost (i.e. the redevelopment will be the filling in of the open corners of the North Stand)

Manchester City:
Re-developed Eastlands from, basically, an athletics stadium into a football stadium for a TOTAL outlay of just £35m BEFORE that takeovers of Shinawatra and the Arabs, thus freeing up money to spend on players.

Liverpool:
New owners have bought out the club and have to fund a new £350m (and rising) stadium. The owners debt has, in the main, been transferred to the club meaning that they are paying in excess of £30m a year in INTEREST PAYMENTS ALONE! Plus, the original £350m loan for the new stadium needs to be started to be paid off next year, thus either adding further interest payments or the requirement to take out a new loan to cover the old one.

Basically, the upshot is that these teams have been taken over and either no or very little stadium development has been required, and, in the case of Portsmouth, it is a small (in comparable terms) stadium or, as in the case of Liverpool, the club has taken on a HUGE amount of debt.

At the end of the day, anyone hoping to take us over AND make us a winning team needs to find £500m and that’s even before any money for players.

If anyone knows of someone who’s willing to do that then I’m sure Bill kenwright would love their number.

As much as it pains me to say it (well type it anyway) - we either stay were we are and fall even further behind or we move on - and to move on we need a new stadium.

Somebody should organise a conglomerate of supporters to buy the club from Bill

Stu - totally agree with you re absurd tranfer fees. Looked at the Guardian website yesterday - rumours that Man City’s new owners would bid £135M for Ronaldo and wanted to go after Torres and Fabregas - all in the next transfer window. Danger is that football will get carried away with all this and sell it’s soul. What price 9 pardon the pun) Man City’s youth policy which has seen young players come through like Micah Richards. Do we really want to be part of that band wagon ? I would be very wary indeed.

Steve Flanagan,

We wouldnt need £500M of investment. We would need enough cash to buy players and a deposit for a new Stadium. A mortage against furture season ticket sales, Naming rights etc would secure the rest of the stadium.
Nobdoy buys a new stadium outright for cash. We wouldnt need half that £500M you mentioned. Still a lot of money of course but comparitive with the investment required in other clubs. Remember Ashley bought NUFC for £150M and they already had a £80M debt. So he paid almost £250M on them before he even bankrolled any signings.

If we have always been for sale then BK must be the worst salesman in history!!!

"I think the reality of the move is, from a business sense, in today?s current economic climate, that to compete we have to move."

Why do people stick to this mantra?
Leicester, Coventry, Southampton, Middlesboro, Sunderland, Reading etc. all bought the line, and are at very best marginally better off, or at worst staring at the abyss. In the meantime we progressed up the table to finishing 5th and 6th whilst stayed put - despite ’needing a new Stadium to compete’.

If you accept at face value the projections of increased turnover of the move to Kirkby (which is in itself a leap of faith) - it would still not put us on a footing to compete directly with Chelsea, Arsenal, United, RS or City. Yet, the downside if it pans out wrong is unthinkable. So why take the risk?

These are one shot a century decisions. I’ll be up for a ground move when the deal on the table looks 100% the right one. This one does not.

...and how is moving to a crappy retail park, in a run of the mill box, 9 miles from the Liverpool City Centre going to attract investment? Sure its cheap, and a stadium but so what.

If you wanted to sell your house and thought an extension may help to increase its value, (and interest from potential buyers). Would you;

a) build the cheapest, ugliest, unfitting extension. With the argument that it has an extension so therefore the house is worth more. Who cares if its ugly and not befitting of the house?
OR
b) spend a little more and build a more fitting, and upmarket extension. With the idea that a good quality build with be worth more on paper and also attract a better kind of buyer.

OK its not a great analogy but you get my drift.? I seriously doubt these billionaire Arabs would buy EFC because we have a cheap arse stadium nowhere (relatively) near a city centre.

I just wish Rupert Murdoch had never been born. He’s ruined the game loved by millions.

Phil Martin

How much do you think naming rights will get us? At the end of the day, we will, somewhere, have to find £250m AT LEAST to build a new stadium without any partners (Liverpool’s currently stands at £350m and is rising all the time). Whilst I agree that this doesn’t have to be found in one go, there is the ongoing problem of inflation and rising costs of materials, etc which will puch up the final cost of the stadium.

A mortgage against future ticket sales? So you’d be happy for someone to come in and buy out the shares, clear the debt, and then put more debt on us? Ask any Kopite if he’s happy with the way the yanks have used the club to get loans to pay for their new stadium AND having to pay in excess of £30m A YEAR IN INTEREST.

Yes, Ashley bought Newcastle for £250m but he also got a majorly re-developed stadium for that price as well. Do you honestly think he would have bought Newcastle for that amount of money if he had to re-develop the stadium as well? From a business perspective it would have to be no. Also, Newcastle have a high sales market due to the fact that they are the ONLY team in a very large city - hence the reason they are attractive - but they still manage to mess up and appear to be following the Portsmouth line of having to ’balance the books’ on transfers.

Tony - totally agree. If the money that has come into the game since been spread evenly through the divisions that would have been good- but all that’s happened is that the rich have got richer.

Tony Waring wrote "I just wish Rupert Murdoch had never been born. He?s ruined the game loved by millions".
If football fans didn’t subscribe to his ’evil empire’ and watch games that don’t feature their own club then Murdoch wouldn’t have made the money in the first place. Take it one step further and don’t watch every Champions League game and don’t buy products from the sponsors/advertisers then see how the money stops rolling in......

Any statement regarding David Moyes’s contract? Are we now to believe that as Everton can in no way match his aspirations with the current owner that he has no chance of signing until he knows the outcome of DK or the ’sale’ if Bill’s shares? This is likely to be another of those long running sagas?

"Why do people stick to this mantra?
Leicester, Coventry, Southampton, Middlesboro, Sunderland, Reading etc. all bought the line, and are at very best marginally better off, or at worst staring at the abyss. In the meantime we progressed up the table to finishing 5th and 6th whilst stayed put - despite ?needing a new Stadium to compete?."

But you are picking clubs that were historically small (in crowd terms), and are damning them for now being medium sized at best. Each of them started from a footing well below Everton, so it’s not the right comparison when looking at Everton’s stadium.

The question isn’t whether these clubs have moved on to competing with United and Liverpool; it isn’t even whether these clubs are in a better position than they were 15 years ago. The only relevent question is "if the club hadn’t built the stadium, would they be better or worse off now?".

Reading are a tiny club who got 2 years of Premier League football. I can’t see how you can possibly use them as a negative. Sunderland and Middlesborugh are enourmously better off as a result of new stadiums.

Of the rest, only Leicester were worse off as a result of the stadium (and that was mainly due to gross financial mismanagement). Coventry went down when playing in their old stadium. Southampton went down in their new one, but were on the brink for a decade at the Dell.


"If you accept at face value the projections of increased turnover of the move to Kirkby (which is in itself a leap of faith) - it would still not put us on a footing to compete directly with Chelsea, Arsenal, United, RS or City. Yet, the downside if it pans out wrong is unthinkable. So why take the risk?"

Your argument essentially seems to be, "if you can’t fix all of a problem, then there’s little upside in fixing part of it". I disagree entirely. In Everton’s current position, there is very little hope of catching the top 4 - we seem to have basically reached the limit of our spending power. An extra £10m a year gives us a chance of reaching the top 4 - even if only for one year. Once there, we’d have Champions League money to try to solidify our position.

People often point out that Moyes has received an average of about £5m in transfer money a year. £10m a year would triple that.

It doesn’t have to be a case of being able to match the RS every year. It just has to be a case of being close enough that it’s possible to hit the top 4 with a good manager and sensible spending.

Your argument also seems to implicitly suggest that there is no downside in not moving. However, almost all of our competitors are planning some form of stadium expansion, or already have larger stadiums (with better corporate facilities) than us. If we do nothing, it’s likely that in 10 years Goodison will be producing less money than 15 other Premier League clubs. Isn’t that downside unthinkable?

"These are one shot a century decisions. I?ll be up for a ground move when the deal on the table looks 100% the right one. This one does not. "

The problem is that nothing is ever 100% in life, and even less so in business.

How long do we wait?

Can anybody please shed some light as to what the board had to say with regard to the transport plan and how people are meant to get to Kirkby.

If anything was to kill Kirkby then this would be it IMO.

Simon - When I went to scholl ,that would have be doubled not tripple! The KD is academic that we will never be able to afford to move as by the time the GI deals with it the building costs will have gone through the roof, its gone from a free ground, to 78 million needed to much more when we get the go ahead Bill needs to sell by actually putting the club up for sale not just saying it!

People often point out that Moyes has received an average of about £5m in transfer money a year. £10m a year would triple that.

Steve Flanagan,

I understand building a new ground is far from cheap. However with increased ticket sales and sponsorship deals the stadium could be paid for in a mortgage style basis. Like Arsenal have used. They sold Highbury, stumped up a deposit, sold naming rights, and got a mortgage to pay for the stadium. If we had a parner too then that would also bring extra income.
Sure NUFC cost £250M and dont need any immediate stadium work. But if they wanted to compete with the top4 then they will have to increase St James Park too. That wont be cheap. My point is that Everton aren’t that different from other big clubs. Most clubs require substantial investment, and i believe EFC has as much potential as any.

John Burquest


You are so right,John. There will be few takers if,to get to the match, we have to walk (or cycle!) for half an hour to get there and those lucky enough to find room in the car park have to re-mortgage their house to park there.
It will be bad enough moving to Kirkby anyway without all the transport problems.

...and No i would rather the investors took the debt - rather than the club. However since the club is a businees it would have to carry some of the debt. Just like ManUtd, RS, Chelsea (interest free loan) do. Bare in mind all BK has done in the last 8 years is get loans against the Club and ask his mates to be guarantors.

Joey Dela

Scholl?? Isn’t that a shoe?

Simon Skinner wrote "An extra £10m a year gives us a chance of reaching the top 4 - even if only for one year. Once there, we?d have Champions League money to try to solidify our position".
So what would £10 million buy ? Even without taking wages into consideration would that buy a player (or players) who would improve the quality of the squad to make a challenge for the top 4 ? Unless something goes dramatically wrong, 2 of those 4 places will go to Man Utd and Chelsea. Liverpool have the luck even when playing badly on a regular basis and Arsenal have a system that works with whoever is playing. Man City are now a financial threat and Villa are building. Plus there is always one team that overachieves for a top 7 place in most seasons. If this extra £10 million does get us 3rd or 4th place then we still have to get through the qualifying stage to get to the big money. Then with the distraction of the Champions League we have to get into the top 4 in every season to build on this success. Can you really see this with the current owners or will a new stadium in Kirkby open a magic door to untold riches ?

I could just imagine Sheikh Whatever popping into Tesco for a few bits after the game. Destination Kirkby my arse...Destination Oblivion

Phil

Yes Newcastle will have to increase St. James’ Park and they are planning to do so with the major help of their local council - but as I said, they are the only club in a large city and thus can do that.

If Liverpool FC didn’t exist (and yes we’ve all probably wished that at some point) - LCC would be falling over themselves to help us.

Arsenal can afford to take on their debt due to the cash generated from the Champions League - simple as. If they were in our position, do you think they would have got the same amount of money from Emirates or would have been able to build their stadium - I very much doubt it.

Finally, the reason Chelsea, Man United and Liverpool can currently afford to take on the debt they have is due to the Champions League - and all of it’s associated income.

If we could get into the Champions League for one or two seasons (and I mean by making it past the group stages) then we would probably be having investors knocking Bill’s door down to get a slice of the action - but at present we’re not and thus they aren’t.

My original point (and I may have worded incorrectly) is that people are going on about teams that have attracted investment, who are outside the current Top 4 (the likes of Manchester City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc) appears, to me anyway, due, in the main, to the fact that a new stadium will not have to be funded in any way.

Joint stadium. Thats the alternative. I hate the idea of it but in the end i want Everton to compete for the highest honours playing fantastic football in LIVERPOOL. To do that we need investment that will only come when we have a new ground. I dont want to leave Liverpool to the RED SHITE playing footy in Kirby in the championship. Everton to me will always be about watching scintilating football .Its about the players.I dont like our situation but quite frankly for what ever reasons we have not been able to attract new substantial investment for our paling staff without a ground and that doesn’t seemed to have happend. When the Kings dock was in the frame i would not have anticipated a ground share ,but over the years i just want to see Everton play Footy like we remember week in and out thrashing the top teams.

Joey Dela:

I believe the point was there was an extra 10m a year.

An *additional* 10m a year added to an existing 5m is triple what you have available initially, not double.

So the move to Kikby will give us £10 million on transfers if we get a full capacity on each game! Why did we only end up with £5 million this year? after selling players & all the sky tv money etc? & what will an extra proposed £10 million buy us in todays transfer market? These sums do not add up & you are deluded if you think to uproot our history for a mere £10 million pounds! on the basis we sell out every week when last seasons attendence at GP in a GOOD season was an average of 38,000. These sums are just spin & as I stated in an earlier post we wont have the extra funds to move to Kirkby by the time the GI is approved! Is now standing at £78 million & rising even LFC have abandond thier ground move as the steel prices are rising & the credit crunch! The KD is now academic that it will fall through anyway once it was called in!

A couple of points on this ground issue.

First of all DK will more than likely cost us between £8 to £10 million a year in interest (100 million @ 8% to 10%).

We would need to generate 13333 extra season ticket holder @ between £500 and £1000 a season (average £750) just to pay the interest bill.

Now assuming we get extra corporate and commercial income out of it ( which I doubt) say 1 to 2 million a year or even 3 to 4 million a year.

Is it really realistic to give up GP on the expectation that we will get an extra lets even say 12000 supporters a game every game of the season with the known transport problems of Kirkby and so many supporters opposed to going there (at least 10000).

GP with a capacity of 40000 and DK with a maximum capacity of 50401 makes that figure seem very ambitious.

Secondly and I have made this point before GP is already significantly larger than most premiership grounds including Spurs (36000) and in fact Villa park(42000) and Analfield (45000) dont hold significantly more so are gate receipts that significant to income or should we be looking at commercial income as an alternative source of income.

How can Tottenham, White Hart Lane, 36,247, West Ham, Boleyn Ground, 35,089, Portsmouth, Fratton Park, 20,600, Aston Villa, Villa Park, 42,719, Fulham, Craven Cottage, 25,600, . Middlesbrough, Riverside, 35,049, Wigan, JJB Stadium, 25,023, Blackburn Rovers, 31,367, Bolton, Reebok Stadium, 27,879 all compete with us when they mostly have inferior gates.
I really do believe that DK is a white elephant waiting to happen and will just be a moneyspinner for BK and his mates leaving EFC with a divided fanbase and a huge debt as a legacy.

I am wondering whether anyone bothered to raise the issue about what Kirkby entailed before the ballot and what the majority where actually voting for, ie a ’world class’ stadium, because it seems to me what we where told we are getting has changed drastically over the past year.

In an ideal world i’d love to remain in Liverpool, don’t get me wrong, but i’m not willing, like Bill, to jeopardise the future of this club just over geography and what is a few miles, it’s not worth it.

But i’d still like to know what it is we are getting, because it stinks of Riverside Stadium/Ricoh Arena to me, and that is not what we where promised when the fans where balloted.

Jay

That’s a decent attempt at putting number on things.

However, a few questions:

(1) Where you you get a figure of £100m for debt? Everton’s spend on Kirkby is £78m, to be partially funded by the sale of Goodison and naming rights. Everton’s debt is expected to be around £50m.

Nobody disagrees that £100m debt is too much for Everton - indeed, the application says so.

(2) Why are you using such a high interest rate? The borrowings will be secured against the stadium and future income streams. You are using rates far higher than mortgage rates - given that the loans will be secured, Everton have guarenteed income (i.e. Everton can’t lose it’s job) and it also has assets worth millions (i.e. the players), the interest rate should be lower (secured corporate loans are always at better rates).

In truth, Everton would borrow at about 6% at most. Obviously that makes a huge difference to your analysis.

"Secondly and I have made this point before GP is already significantly larger than most premiership grounds including Spurs (36000) and in fact Villa park(42000) and Analfield (45000) dont hold significantly more so are gate receipts that significant to income or should we be looking at commercial income as an alternative source of income."

That’s a strange argument. You are saying that we are only slightly behind on gate receipts, so we shouldn’t bother to improve them? We should, however, try to improve on commericial income? Because the truth is, we aren’t behind any club outside of the Big 4 and London based Spurs on that one either.

If we are going to catch the big 4, we need to improve all areas. £10m is a huge amount of money to the club - you like to point out that Moyes has spent £5m a season. £10m a year would triple that.

You can argue that commericial income is more important if you want, but the fact is we need to improve both. And as we have discussed in another thread, no other team outside of the Big 4 and Spurs makes significantly more PROFIT than us commercially.

Given that nobody else has managed it, increasing commercial profit by £10m is obviously a pretty difficult thing to do.

Ben Jones your right...just think BK speaks from the heart...we all get emotional talking about our beloved club.Don’t believe in dragging BK down HE DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE CALLED A LIAR.Basically like to think....all of us would have liked to do something for the club-but would we risk our house??He’s bought about a minor miracle-Mission impossible.The real culprit was agent JOHNSON!!Undercover RS)

Simon to pick you up on one minor but important point on funding for DK; the sale of Goodison, surely the mortgage holders would like paying back before BK gets a penny towards DK.

Philip Chappell I suggest you look up the dictionary meaning of liar and try to explain how on more than half a dozen of occasions BK has not "lied".

"Simon to pick you up on one minor but important point on funding for DK; the sale of Goodison, surely the mortgage holders would like paying back before BK gets a penny towards DK."

Reasonable point. I would assume that there isn’t a loan secured against the land Goodison is on. This would be sensible - in the event of Everton going into money trouble, the bank would never be able to recover the value of the land without knocking down the stadium, which would be such terrible PR for the bank that it wouldn’t be worthwhile (not to mention the expense of actually knocking down the stadium). Therefore I don’t see why a bank would be willing to secure against the land.

The mortgage that exists would be against Goodison itself - a bank could take over the running of the stadium and lease it to Everton, and recover it’s money that way (as banks have done with other clubs in money troubles).

Similarly, the club wouldn’t be able to borrow against the value of the land in Kirkby, but rather just the stadium itself and future income streams that it generates.

They would, presumably, have to repay any loan secured against Goodison itself, but that’s likely to be much, much lower than the value of the land.

So we’re all accepting that it’s an additional £10m revenue, judging by teh posts above. How much profit - what’s actually needed to buy a player and pay his wages - does £10m revenue represent? £5m (not quite a M’bia) , or £3m (not quite an Alan Smith or Hunt)? The Sky 4 plus Citeh will be quaking with fear!!!

I honestly am never coming to this site again. I have been an avid follower of the forums and the commetns for years but this is just ridiculous.

Does anyone honestly believe that any person investing in Everton Football Club is here to make a loss? I mean for fucks sake! At best it’s to break even and do well for the club - or are there people out there that actually believe that Bill Kenright or whoever actually want to do damage to the club?

Do you think these people who are millionaires!!!!!! are actually that thick they don’t know how to run a business?

I appreciate that we all have our opionions about the cashflow of Everton but NONE of us in possession of the facts - therefore you have a choice - carry on with this fucking ridiculous witch hunt and drive the people who are trying to do something out of the club, or rein yerselfs in ffs!

This EGM was a sham - a pathetic attempt by unimportant idiots to try and feel a bit bigger about themselves. Do they look like that now with a massive landslide result? No? The votres should have been counted differently? maybe they should have had 10,00 votes each - then that would have been fair...

Grow up and just deal with your lives and let this club organically grow so we WILL be the best club in the land, built on players that want to play for us,a manager that wants to manage us, a board that is there for the long term (I’m not saying this board) and a support that will back us.

For the love of Dixie!

Dave Geoffreys, as I stated in another thread, it was the vote at the EGM last night that was the sham. Had it been one man, one vote, then by all accounts the Board and the pro-Kirkby-ites would have lost the vote 60 to 40.

How you can possibly say that the EGM was a "pathetic attempt by unimportant idiots... to try and feel bigger about themselves" just beggars belief. I’m truly staggered that people can hold that view of two Evertonians who have serious and well-grounded misgivings about what is proposed in Kirkby.

I mean did you actually read the supporting literature? At the very least, if all last night did was impress upon the Board that the transport component of Destination Kirkby is utterly flawed (which it did, by the way) then it would have been worth it.

As it is, it conveyed a lot more than that. It conveyed to Kenwright and co. that if those in attendance are reflective of the fanbase at large then they are now going against the wishes of a majority of fans who make up the core match-going support if they proceed with Kirkby.

Evertonian that disagree with Kenwright, DK etc take note of the Newcastle fans now on Sky this how passionate fans react when there club is being sold down the river by an egotistical charlotan not skulking around for the next man to say something. Until we do something like this Kenwright will get away with watever he wants.

Actually Rich (and others) - isn’t the lesson most of us draw from Newcastle (and indeed the real farces that Tottenham, West Ham and Liverpool have been in the last year to name just a few), that actually your criticism of Bil K’s regime is way over-blown? That when you say ’we are a laughing stock’ it is simply not true?

God knows, we do have our problems (Bill not being rich enough being the main one), but we are actually respected for the way we are run by other fans (certainly all the ones I talk to), and are actually way behind quite a few other clubs in the laughter stakes.

I think you've missed my point totally, Neil ( I was saying that the no voters and people against BK are not vociferous enough). I don't know what you thought my point was it certainly wasn't that we should be run like Newcastle.

And I’m saying Rich that fans at Newcastle (and quite a number of other Premiership clubs) have MUCH greater reasons to be "vociferous" at their boards than Everton fans.

When we have managers resigning or being sacked every few months (Newcastle); having players forced on them or sales forced on them that they don’t want (West Ham, Tottenham, Chelsea, Everton under Johnson); having their owners publicly undermine them by talking up other potential managers (Tottenham, Liverpool); have owners who won’t talk to each other, or to their CEO, or the manager (Liverpool); have criminals owning their clubs (Man City until Monday); have a truly delusional owner who walks out on the pitch to milk the fans’ applause (Fulham)... well, then perhaps we should really get vociferous. Until then we might want to get things in a bit of proportion. (And, as I have long and often stated, I think Bill needs to go now too. But I also wouldn’t swap him for any of those I’ve mentioned above.)

Nothing like sitting on the fence Neil. Shall I remind you that Moyes still hasnt signed his contract yet. I wonder why, its a poser hey Neil.

Nothing like not addressing anything I said Rich! Do you think our fans as you suggest should be as vociferous against our Board as Newcastle fans are against theirs? Really? (That’s what you were arguing.)

No, it’s not much of a poser on Moyes Rich. Rather obviously Moyes is concerned that he cannot get the financial backing he wants to take Everton where he wants. He’s probably right. That makes Bill Kenwright not rich enough. It doesn’t make him some kind of criminal.

Rich Jones, you really do need to wake up and smell the salts.
I am for the Kirby Project, but the obvious outcome if we do move to Kirby is BK will then sell on to an investor. Not Neccessarilly to make big prophit but to pay himself back what he has already put in and pay his friends who have loaned him out over the last few seasons. Anyone with any sort of Business background can see that is what will happen. Investors will not buy Everton whilst in a City which is being dominated by another club. Trust me, if we move to Kirby, that is when Kenwright will sell up to an already earmarked investor, he just needs to do the dirty work before they take over

Holden" Investors will not buy Everton whilst in a City which is being dominated by another club."

Were you under a rock on Monday? Does Manchester City or Abu Dhabi ring any bells?

Lyndon - why make the comment that if it were 1 man 1 vote it would have been a 60/40 against vote - so how is that a "sham"?

It isn’t 1 man 1 vote, as it was a shareholders meeting called by anti DK minority shareholders & as such any show of hands vote on the issue was always going to go that way, based on those who were motivated enough by the issue to turn up - the fact that they may only own a handful of shares each - compared to the boards 1,000’s is how a shareholding works - you make it sound like it was a stitch up - everyone knew way in advance what the result of any vote would be - it’s naive to suggest otherwise.

On the blue kipper forum now a rumour from Sentata news mukesh ambani a rich indian billionaire is flying in on Monday to buy either us or Newcastle. His son was at the PSV game with BK & Robert Earl dont hold your breath!!!!!!

Iv’e never called him a criminal Neil (where did that come from) just a liar who would sell us down the swanny for his nice little pension nest egg.

Again, Steve, it?s not the vote I have an issue with (as you say, we knew up front a show of hands wasn't going to be allowed), it?s the spin capital that the Club are making it from it on both the Official Site and today?s email newsletter.

Elstone is claiming a "clear mandate" based on a 97.7% vote against the Grayson-Bennett motion last night. The specific language may have been corrected on the site to say that "97.7% of shareholders? votes" came out in favour of continuing with Destination Kirkby (it was not corrected in the newsletter, however: "97.7% of shareholders defeated a resolution...") but the impression created to anyone not bothering to read more behind it is that 97.7% of those in attendance voted to defeat the motion. It wasn?t anywhere near that as we all know.

Fair enough Lyndon - I understand what your beef is now - the headline is misleading.