More sentimental gushings over the biggest failure of a Chairman the club has ever had, he has hidden behind the success of his manager and the influx of vast swathes of Sky money for years but finally been found out.

The charlatan has been trying to run a vintage car on chip fat and it’s finally come home to roost.

It is absolutely incredible after the summer we have suffered that there is still one Evertonian i.e Marc that thinks Kenwright is "blue through and through" What the fuck do you think this Kirkby business is all about? It is about fat Bill selling out at a huge profit. Simple. He doesn't give a twopenny fuck about us fans being put in a second rate stadium built on the cheap with no transport and outside the city we love. "Heaven forbid where we would be without Moyes and Kenwright." Moyes maybe but fat Bill - give me fucking strength.

Like or hate BK, does the idea of Everton becoming a rich foreigner?s plaything really appeal to any Evertonian?

We are between the proverbial rock and hard place. Either we hope for someone with vast sums of wealth to come in and put us up there with Chelsea and Man City. Or we keep Everton?s soul and carry on winning the odd battle, but never the war.

Have the people on here really taken no satisfaction from the progress that we?ve made in the last 6 years and the manner in which we?ve made it?

Without blaspheming against our Nil Satis Nisi Optimum mantra, I quite like the fact that the redshite have been looking over their shoulders for 3 out of 4 seasons at our lot, who were assembled on a much smaller budget. They must be shitting themselves in case Moyes ever gets £60M to spend in a summer.

Unfortunately we need a rich benefactor to be in that position. Which could lead to the Chelsea, one manager one season syndrome. Plus if you stick us up there in a Chelsea, Man City type situation, that leaves 6-7 teams battling for 4 Champions League places. That?s not a sustainable situation.

So do people prefer that we try and stick out the dark days that are coming in the league we call home, or do we sell our souls and hope that there?s something left of Everton when it all comes crashing down around us?

I don?t have an answer.

For crying out loud can some of you sheep cease regurgitating the same old nonsense regarding Bill Kenwrights motives for taking the club to Kirkby. It took just one suspicious conspiracy theorist to suggest that he was doing it to swell his personal bank account and suddenly a multitude of followers accept this theory as the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I don?t want to go to Kirkby and have spoken out loud against the idea in the past. I also happen to think that Bill Kenwright is the wrong man to lead this club forward, he has made far too many mistakes with perhaps his biggest failing being taken in by the likes of Wyness who sold him the dream of a bold new Everton with a super free stadium at Kirkby. Don?t forget that the majority of fans who bothered to vote were also sold this same dream.

Kenwright has proved in the past that he could not have possibly thought up project Kirkby all on his own, he has been hoodwinked just like the rest of us, and has gone so far down that particular road that it is now impossible for him to make a u-turn.

As I have said before, we are quite right to question his judgement but to suggest it is all about personal gain is utter nonsense.

I think you make a really important point Marc.

Sadly I think the game is all about the corporate world and BK is not a member of that club. Lying charlatan is not rich enough. That is unforgiveable!

You are accused of sentimental gushings by Gavin yet at the same time he refers to the club as a vintage car. Priceless.

The reality for most clubs is that unless some billionaire takes over and heavily subsidises a loss-making business (as most clubs are or soon will be), they will have similar finances to us.

There are not enough billionaires interested in every Premier League club and even if there were, you can be sure that when they lose money year after year they will eventually pull out. So then what?

There are more of us than you think who are getting more and more sickened by the game and realise that the next takeover of Everton will make the club even more distant from the fans, not closer.

So Gavin can go and sit in his extortionately priced seat, eat a franchise takeaway, watch players with no interest in the club, see some executive from a global company (or member of a royal family from a distant oil rich country) wave from the the Chairman?s seat, discuss tactics with the partner from some PR firm whose seat is paid for by his company ..........and he can rejoice in his vintage car running on grade A fuel.

To use the phrase of Mick above : "Give me fucking strength."

Your points Marc are missed by the likes of Gavin and Mick who seem to have a view that has the naivety of 10 year olds.

Keep Everton in our City will be looked back on as like a campaign to keep a local McDonalds open. For both Macs and a billionaiire owned EFC, you will have no real connection with either and will be viewed by the owners as nothing more than customers who swallow shit as long as it is packaged in bright colours.

Spot on Shaun! Kenwright is naive, gullible, incompetent, prone to hyperbole etc, etc and quite obviously not the right man to take us forward - but for all that I do not believe personal financial gain comes into it.

Perhaps the most distressingly naive letter published in the last few months.

Get with the programme. Find a billionaire owner or reconcile yourself that Everton won their very last title sometime in the late eighties and won?t be winning another.

Football has always been about money and clubs have been the race horces of the rich ... unlikely to bring a return on the outlay, but a status symbol which makes a certain sort of person a full member of the establishment.

If you want to live in the days when players took the same tram to the match as the fans, start taking drugs because that?s the only way they?re coming back.

I?m opposed to Kirkby on two grounds: it won?t make us money and it will fundamentally alter the nature of the club. I wouldn?t trust Moyes or Kenwright any further than I would trust any other men ... they?ll do what?s best for them when the hard questions are asked.

It?s not the drawing of a local authority border and our place either side of it that will change the nature of our club.

Richard, at the moment we are a poor man?s plaything.

FFS lads, so what Bill is blue through and through, has it won us any trophies? I don?t want to be just knocking on the door of the top 4 (5), every season ? I want to be one of them, winning league titles, CL etc; watching world class players, playing quality football. I reckon the shite we have had to put up with at times, we deserve it, and If that is going to take a billionaire, who is not blue through and through, so fucking what?

It?s amazing how some of you are happy to just trundle along with the bullshitter at the helm. I say, bring the billionaires on, give us a taste of glory. If we don?t, we will end up miles behind the majority of the Permier League teams. Also, blue Bill my arse, that man has realised he is out of his depth, and is just looking to make a fast buck.

One more thing, has doing it the Everton way, won us anything?

And I meant won us anything, while BK has been in charge.

A border is a symbol; a sign of belonging or not belonging.

If the club don’t belong to the City of Liverpool, then the nature of it has altered fundamentally.

@Jimmy Fearns

Don’t really agree with you, but supposing that you’re right, at least if BK pulls his limited cash out of EFC we can survive.

The way that things are going, long established clubs are going to risk disappearing a la Leeds. I hate the idea that we’ll get left behind, especially when Moyes and the lads have fought hard to push towards the top end of the Prem. But some clubs are going to be in deep shit before too much longer, if this trend continues.

These billionaires aren’t in it for 2nd place or a UEFA cup place. There are already 2 billionaires and Man Utd, add Arsenal and the Shite into it and there aren’t enough places at the top table already.

I’m not saying that any club who gets a billionaire to bankroll them will end up fucked, but I’m pretty sure that a few will.

It’s worrying times for a club like Everton.

Shaun Sparke, are you for real mate? If you are you need to have a word with yourself. "Super" free stadium? Come on that’s a wind up, right?

Conspiracy theory, my arse. In what way is Kenwright operating in the best interests of the club? Why does a slightly bigger New Den outside of one of the UK’s major cities boundaries make us more money? No one has really given me a decent answer to this yet. If someone really wants to invest in Everton they will do so without the need for a crappy stadium with no transport links.

If you owned something worth say £50 but you could change it for very little cost and make yourself £1000 what would you do? If you owned a football club and could sell it for £50 million but you could move it’s location without having to dip into your own pocket and sell it for £100 million what would you do? We’re talking a hell of a lot of money and nearly every Evertonian would do the same thing, who cares about loyalty.

Ged maybe you missed the point through your Billy Bullshitter brand blinkers but the vintage car analogy was just that; describing Bill?s running down of a perfectly functional but old and tired piece of equipment on a shoestring where his sentimentality like yours has ignored its deterioration whilst its competitors have evolved and maintained.

A strange way to equate that to the musings of a 10-year-old given that would be the equivalent of ignoring the obvious around you and stubbornly ignoring what is going on just to maintain your toy(s).

Using your own words to beat you too, but should Desperation Kirkby happen and the required additional full houses not be forthcoming as there still isn?t a transport plan in place, feel free as a BK sheep to have to pay increased ticket prices yourself to make up the shortfall just to pay off the stadium debt and await BK if he hasn?t cashed in give his latest bullshitism blaming anyone but himself that the fabled £10m a year for squad strengthening also doesn?t exist.

But you will be happy that a lying, potless arsehole that couldn?t run a raffle is still in charge because he is supposed to be a blue rather than some "foreigner" with business acumen and not 50s idealogies and Walter Mittyisms willing to compete with his peers.

Some of the comments above that I have just read make me despair.
Gavin Ramejkis. I have read that you describe yourself as having a very successful business. How successful? Are you as wealthy as Black Bill? If so, as an ardent ’Blue’, buy him out. I’m sure he’d like to get out of the mess he finds himself in, as Chairman of a Football Club with ’supporters’ like you.

Alan Clarke. What makes you think that all the Everton supporters come from the city of Liverpool. Most of the loud and foul mouthed supporters would appear to emanate from the area round Goodison Park but there are thousands from areas outside the city who do not subscribe to your blatherings

Brian Waring. How many clubs outside the ’Big Four’ have had any great success in the last 10 years? At least we have been in the top six, two, or is it three, times. Apart from shooting off your mouth, what have you, personally, done to further the Clubs progress.

Mike McLean. I have only lived in the city of Liverpool for slightly over a year. That was about fifty + years ago when supporters supported the club. I am not a Scouser, being born and raised across the Mersey. Am I less of an Evertonian than you?

Mick Wrende. Just read your contribution and feel sick. What a prick you are.

I consider myself a ’true blue’. I have supported Everton for well over 70 years and to read what so many of you write above, makes me feel disgusted with the type of supporter we appear to have collected in recent years.

If you feel so badly done to, why don’t you clear off and support some other team or better still, emigrate.

Football in England to my mind has evoloved through two distinct and different eras. The first era had Division One and teams had equal playing fields; different clubs produced teams capable of winning the title, eg Ipswich. EFC won the title and challenged frequently. Liverpool were the big force and Man Utd and Chelsea were not even contenders... fans could have punts on their teams winning the title with a reasonable chance of collecting; I did a few times.

The second and present era has devided the league into what has nearly always existed in Scotland... just a couple of teams with realistic title-winning chances. I in many ways preferred the first era... now equality has gone out of the window and level playing fields are mere pipe-dreams.

Competition has now turned into survival for many clubs. I sincerely hope that some Einstein comes up with a brainstorm to reverse the trend and bring back genuine football competition to our English league... until then it's turning into the gradual decline of football as a competitive sport in the country of its birth.

I think the last straw for me will be when relegation is abolished (already this American idea is starting to be ?floated?) ? I just hope we?ll still be in the Premier League when it happens!

Gavin & Co: how many times does this have to be repeated?

Bill can only ’make a killing’ out of going to Kirkby if the value of his shares in the eyes of a purchaser go up. This can only happen if the value of Everton FC AS A WHOLE goes up. And this can only happen if someone thinks that the move to Kirkby has made the club more valuable than it would be if we stayed at GP.

Bill cannot make a killing by financially destroying the club. It’s impossible. If all you No guys are right, and Kirkby will be a financial disaster for the club, then the value of Bill’s shares will go DOWN, and you can at least feed your bitterness with the satisfaction that Bill will be worse off than he is now.

If you are right, to maximise his personal gain Bill should stick at GP or invest massively in the world class stadium in the city you are all so fond of. By your lights, poor Bill is obviously acting against his own financial interest by moving the club to Kirkby. Perhaps you should tell him?

On every post referring to DK. Everybody talks about the flawed transport plan regarding getting supporters to the ground. What about the thousands of shoppers converging on the biggest superstore in Europe, as well as the 50 retail outlets? More reasons why this scheme hasn?t got a dogs chance of getting the go-ahead.

Neil Pearse ? Could I suggest this for your consideration: That sale of the club on the back of the approval secured for Destination Kirkby would be a significant short-term financial success for the club and a huge personal bonanza (in terms of his return on original investment) for Bill Kenwright, wgho may then be able to sell the club for a subnstantial profit on his original investment before any construction occurs at DK. Later ? much, much mater ? as the doom-mongering line goes, Kirkby is built but eventually proves over the long term to be the absolute disaster in financial and all other means that they are predicting.

See: the scenario you claim to be impossible is actually quite feasible... and the anti-Kirkby lobby CAN have their cake and eat it... or something!

Keep up the good work Bill K you will alway have plenty os support.

Tim Lloyd -

Welcome to the fray. As you have worked out, there are some people who, because they can walk to the boozer (sorry, take a cab) and then walk to the ground regard themselves as the heart and soul of the club. Most of them wouldn’t know how to find the Mersey Tunnel, or the Mersey, come to think of it.

One poster recently suggested that we relocate to a couple of disused tennis courts because they were in Walton. The joy of this scheme was that he could then take a cab from his local to the new ground. Apparently, these vehicles can’t travel the three miles to Kirkby.

I don’t know what Gavin’s financial credentials are, but I note that he says that Bill Kenyon "is still in charge because he is supposed to be a blue". I thought it was because he was, basically, the owner.

I have reread Mick Wrende’s contribution as you call him a "prick". Is this fair? He obviously has an aversion to fat people, and can’t find his way to Kirkby - but does that make him a tool?

I’ve had my own disagreements with people who think that the ever changing boundaries of "Our City" mean anything. They, of course, will never read another Post or Echo when they are printed in Oldham.

Anyway, its a grand old club, with room for all inside. Lescott’s superb touch led to England’s win last night here in Spain and he’ll be back to play with a strengthened midfield. Pride on the field is really what its all about.

Of course Michael - but you are just saying that some idiot would buy Everton and pay way over the odds for the club not understanding that Kirkby was going to be such a disaster. It’s possible - but given the amount of examination of Kirkby, hardly very likely. No-one is going to buy Everton without running the numbers on Kirkby. If all you guys are right, they will discover pretty soon that it is simply going to add a lot of debt without raising much if any additional revenue (no-one can get there, they won’t cross the Knowsley boundary etc. etc.).

I think you guys are best sticking to a much simpler line of argument: that Kirkby is just a stupid idea for the club, Bill has got it wrong, and of course he will lose his shirt at the same time as ruining the club he professes to love. Why also insist that Bill is motivated to rip off the club? Even I can accept that Bill is a bit stupid. But he is pretty clearly a decent guy who does actually love the club.

Neil, are you being deliberately obtuse? It has nothing whatsosever to do with over-valuing the club... unless you seriously believe the club currently is worth LESS THAN Bill Kenwright (and then-friends) paid for it back in 2000.

The case was also being made when Kirkby was called in that, if it hadn?t been called in, its approval would have boosted the currently perceived value of the club, and in all likelihood prompted a takeover... or are you denying that as well?

It?s surely not even a debatable fact that Bill Kenwright would make a substantial return... NOW or in the near future ... if that were to have happened and a buyer was to appear... agreed or not?

The question of Kirkby?s financial success or failure is something neither you nor I nor the club nor the ant-Kirkby lobby can be sure of. But one thing is certain: it will not be known for sure until many years into the future. I feel pretty certain that Bill Kenwright will have gone by then. I feel even more certain that, if DK is in the bag, he will take home a lot more money than if he has to sell the club without DK as a future prospect.

It?s not financial rocket science, and it really has little or nothing to do with the real financial outcome of DK, but only with it?s currently perceived value ? to the Club/BK, and to any incoming investor.

And it's not about ripping off the club ? it's about realising a return on his investment. It's just a fact: Bill is looking to walk away with a massive windfall... if he is successful in finding a buyer. Why deny that?

Gavin

You still look no further than your nose.

The point I make is that I do not believe all will be as wonderful as you seem to think when BK sells and some mega-rich owner replaces him.

50s ideologies? Wasn?t born.

Watch yourself lad............ you may get what you wish and find you no longer have a communty of Everton fans to insult.

Alan Clarke - Read my post properly. The Super free new stadium was something that Wyness used in the original publicity material when the idea of Kirkby was first mooted. I would suggest that you really should read through posts completely in future before asking people to get real. Maybe I should have added a disclaimer for the hard of understanding.

Sparke - you are the thick one here. You make it sound as though Kenwright is a retarded bafoon. He has not got to where he is because he is thick - he will know full well that he is in for a big personal gain here if he can just get our move through. And you Sparke may have been hoodwinked but not me.

Michael mate - are you being deliberately obtuse?

Why do YOU think that the value of the club would go up as a result of Kirkby being approved? Why?? Why would ’the perceived value’ of the club go up as a result of Kirkby?

If the value goes up this means people who could actually buy the club now think that the club is more valuable with Kirkby than previously. If they are wrong, they have over-valued the club.

Let’s be clear. You and most posters on Toffeeweb believe the club’s business value should go DOWN as a result of Kirkby. Indeed, most of you apparently believe that it is OBVIOUS that it should go down - given all the transport difficulties, the impact on club loyalty etc. etc.. (See the transport thread running on this site right now. Many posting there apparently believe that Kirkby is a complete and obvious financial disaster.)

How DO you explain what must then be a completely extraodinary and inexplicable fact to you, that the value of the club would in fact go UP if Kirkby were to be approved?

The only reason it could be go up is that some person who is rich enough to invest in football clubs, and presumably intelligent enough with a host of advisors to work out what they might be worth, now thinks that Kirkby makes Everton more valuable as a business. That is: they completely disagree with what most Toffeeweb posters including yourself think is OBVIOUS. Otherwise they would be idiots to pay extra for the club after Kirkby has been approved, when according to you they should pay less.

There are basically two explanations here if the value of club really would go up if Kirkby is approved. One is that potential future investors in a major Premiership football club are fools and don’t know how to value football businesses. The other is that you guys are wrong and Kirkby actually is likely to increase the financial value of the club.

Take your pick!

Actually, you do have a third option which I have been offering you. That is to stick to your guns and argue that Kirkby is indeed such an obvious financial disaster that the value of the club will go down if it is approved, and Bill would be better off selling now. That doesn’t suit you for some reason because it seems you really want to maintain that Bill is selfish and immoral as well as unwise. Why?

In case it isn’t clear, I agree with you Michael that if Kirkby is approved the value of the club will indeed go up, and Bill will indeed make more money by selling his shares.

I also have a very simple explanation for this: that Kirkby actually makes the club more valuable because it is very likely indeed that that it will generate additional revenues over and above its investment costs. That is why a rich, smart and experienced investor would pay more for the club post Kirkby approval.

Sometimes the simplest explanations really are the best!

I am sick to death of reading about ’what we loyal supporters deserve’ and moving outside of the city boundary (just up the road if it happens).

There is something about a large number of scousers who have an inflated opinion of the city, laying claim to anything good that has come out of the place and demanding other people make provision for exactly what they want.

In this world you get what you pay for so if we can’t afford to pay £60 each for a ticket then we have to rely on somebody coming up with a scheme to make a new stadium affordable. I can’t afford to build a new one, so I will go to watch Everton wherever they end up, though I think it should be on Merseyside.

I don’t live in the City anymore and have a five hour round trip for the game. Sometimes it seems like it’s not far enough.

I?m glad you settled down a bit, Neil, after that previous somewhat excitable response that was full of unfortunate assumptions clouding the simplicity of this issue. Try to forget for a moment, please, about what you think I or other TW contributors believe and concentrate instead on what we know to be true, and what we or others might project about the future.

Firstly, the club is now worth, by all accounts, far more than when Bill Kenwright bought it. Can we agree on that? Yes or No? If he could find a buyer and complete a deal, he would almost certainly make a substantial return on his investment? Yes or No?

Secondly, we know that, if Kirkby goes ahead as planned, Everton end up with a "free" stadium shell worth £50M... agreed? Obviously that, right there is an increase in club value, yes? What I am saying is the perceived increase could be accredited merely on the promise of the future project ? it doesn?t have to be built for the value to be added to Everton?s stock in the short term, contingent on approval. Hopefully at least we can agree on this one point. Don?t clould it with anything else, Okay?

The third step in the process is a buyer coming in. Here we?ll go with your presumption that all the due diligence on Kirkby pans out and the deal goes through... because they are smart and intelligent people, as you say. Bill walks away with a massive, MASSIVE amount of money.... Agreed? Or do you still think we are somehow being anti-Kenwright by suggesting this?

The fourth step is where we differ, but what you are doing is conflating this with the previous two. This step occurs much later, most likely when Bill is long gone, Kirkby is built, and the new era is well under way. By your projections, it?s a fabulous success, everything is fine and Everton FC, club and fans lives happily ever after.

But what if ? and this really has nothing to do with Kemnwright now ? he?s gone... along with his massive pay-off... What if it turns out that the move is a disaster for all the reasons stated. As an intelligent financial chappy surely that is something you should at least consider as a possible outcome. You cannot be certain it will be a success. You cannot be certain it will provide the income they are projecting. That's all we are really saying here.

So hopefully the bit we both agree on is the bit where Kenwright makes out like a bandit. Coz you and I both know that he will, whether Kirkby is a big success or an even bigger flop.

I love you guys.

You bring much amusment to an otherwise dreary day

Thankyou.

Wrende - ok let?s drop the first names. I voted against moving to Kirkby so hoodwinked? I don?t think so. Kenwright has proved on many occasions that he is incompetent. Maybe some would describe that as having buffoon like qualities!

Messing up the Kings Dock, Fortress Sport Fund, Paul Gregg, failed NTL money, Trevor Birch. Yep that sure sounds like the acts of a shrewd businessman who has set up the whole Kirkby deal for massive personal gain. Maybe I am thick after all.