I said something similar in another thread the other day, how close are we to the receivers given we lost seven players to pickup four loans and one new player (assuming Saha stays injured as he has done for four years) and in 12 months the majority of those players disappear back to whence they came and god help us we get another summer of "the money is there" only to hear at another EGM it wasn’t and we are broke.

Bill whether you like him or loathe him (I’m the latter) I feel has stayed too long and the club has fallen so far behind as to become increasingly unattractive to potential buyers as it has become an alarmingly failing business off field despite the hard work on the field.

If Billy doesn’t ship out then I do think it’s game over and a slow dip into the realms of Nottingham Forest et al that once were giants but ran so badly they sank like a stone never to return.

Let's face, it the only thing keeping EFC alive is its Premier League status. If we lose that then we probably would have a fire sale and do a Leeds/Notts Forest/Sheff Wed.

However, you have to ask yourself how a club like Man City that have been relegated 3 times in 15 years have managed to bag a new stadium and a mega-rich owner.

Yet Everton, with 100% Prem status and some top 6 finishes and Champs League qualification, can't find a bean.

That suggests to me that the club is badly run. But then again we all know this... don't we?

When will it ever end? Just more doom and gloom from Mailbag’s resident misery-guts Nobby and Gavram.What do you guys do for laughs-stick pins in a Blue Bill effigy?
NO.The club is not about to implode,the banks are not about to pull the plug and Davey has another year to run on his contract.
Just give it a rest will you!

Richard Dodd - Ever thought of teaming up with Nobby, perhaps your
empresario pin up Kenright could arrange something.

I see it now it could be the NOBBY & DODDY SHOW, a bit like Punch & Judy for Evertonians.




Nobby - " Kenshite’s Fookin shit & he’s morgaged the Sausages, we’re bankrupt "
Doddy - " Oh no he is’nt, oh no he is’nt"

Doddy, a lot thought you had gone, propaganda from the EGM give you a new lease of life?

One point, David MOyes has much less than a year left on his contract. Thought I’d point it out as you seem fond of pedantic semantics.

As for the post, since the Man city rebirth that has altered the task and chances of breaking into the CL sky 4, at a time when the r/s seem to be imploding a bit more cautious ambition and support for the manager could have seen us leap frog them and keep pace, that didn’t happen and another opportunity went begging. How many times Moyes will stand for that seems to be pivotal, and that in itself speaks volumes for the stability of the club.

Doesn?t City have to actually win a few matches before we annoint them? Didn?t Spurs spend almost as much as City last year?

I’ve suggested on another thread that efc & lfc should consider a merger. See my postings in the mailbag under "Simple Solution "

"How close to the edge are we?"

Well here?s what Bill had to say last week...

"The truth is, every single year it becomes more and more difficult. Every year to find the money, becomes more and more impossible. A new stadium or a redeveloped Goodison that is worth something is an asset on a balance sheet. I presume people look at that, I presume that will make us more attractive. All I know is, and this is for all of you to hear, it is impossible to continue in the financial way we are doing at the moment. Last year, as you know, we spent 23, £24m and I explained it to you, painstakingly, at the last AGM. I went through it bit by bit. I said to you what you could get [...?...] PFA levy, agents fees. So this year, we got that in from the sale of a few players, we got back in, I think, £10m. So we overspent by 13, £14m. We done well, we made a profit thanks to this man [Moyes], that?s all thanks to this man. And I have to say, thanks to the staff at Goodison who I do say, run a good ship and it?s getting better all the time. That brought us in a profit, I don?t know how much but it?s an okay profit to us. It?s a profit that we can go to the bank and say, look, we made 4 or £5m. But it still leaves us with an 8, 9, £10m deficit. I?m not clutching at figures, I don?t know what the final figures are but it leaves us with a deficit to add on to last year?s deficit of 8, 9, or £10m."

The 2006/2007 accounts (latest currently available) say we have a "Net current liability" (i.e. everything we own minus everything we owe) of £20m, and Bill seems to be implying we?ve lost another £16m - £20m since then it looks like we?re about 15 yards out over the edge dancing on thin air in a Wile E Coyote style :(

I guess football being how it is ? as long as the banks keep pitching up with loans against future income we?re in good shape.
After all, it?s the same for everyone and we haven?t exactly done a Leeds yet.
In any case the fans don?t give a shit ? it?s the weekend game that counts. COYB.

Marc Williams wrote "I see it now it could be the NOBBY & DODDY SHOW, a bit like Punch & Judy for Evertonians."
Imagine Bill Kenwright (in a high voice) saying "that’s the way to do it" rather than "it’s the Everton way" !! Would you leave Bill (as Punch) holding the baby ? Is Tony Marsh the crocodile warning us that once the string of sausages has gone, there’s nothing left for Judy (David Moyes ?).
Gavin Ramejkis is the policeman keeping a watchful eye on Mr.Punch.....

If the club is unattractive to buyers, how does BK "ship out" Gavin.

How?

"The 2006/2007 accounts (latest currently available) say we have a "Net current liability" (i.e. everything we own minus everything we owe) of £20m, and Bill seems to be implying we?ve lost another £16m - £20m since then it looks like we?re about 15 yards out over the edge dancing on thin air in a Wile E Coyote style :("

James

The figure you quote is totally meaningless for a football club. The accounts assume that Arteta, Cahill and Yobo are virtually worthless. They obviously aren?t.

The only thing that matters is whether the club is able to pay it?s obligation when they become due. They can, and comfortably so, no matter what the scaremongers tell you.

Gavin?s argument is essentially that Everton don?t have £30m to spend: logically, therefore, Everton must be close to bankruptcy. It?s a terrible argument.

Think of it this way: most of us, after paying our mortgage, food etc. have very little to spend on all the cool stuff we?d like to buy. Using Gavin?s logic, that means we are just about to go bankrupt and lose our house.

So it?s no sweat and nothing to worry about. I always knew we could depend on Blue Bill!

Richard Harris - That?s it mate, just how I imagined it. Perhaps we should put on a show at half time, next home game, it would be more entertaining than the usual rubbish !

I think the statement from Philip Green tells us like it is. He’s best mates (apparently) with all of us but has absolutely NO interest in us (his own words, allegedly). I worry about this club like everyone here, what is stopping any? real inward investment?

Ged Simpson yet again it’s not our job to find a buyer as we don’t own the shares Black Bill does, just as he is responsible for the state the club is in as a business. Then again why use the obvious when you can just retort by asking me?

Doddy can you explain how you said Black Bill had money now he admitted he didn’t at the EGM? Your cult worship of Bill must be wearing thin surely.

Simon the logic is not that at all but trying to point out that the club can’t evolve enough to just maintain it’s current position by keeping a squad of sufficient size and quality being forced to sell/lose seven players just to buy one. You need to buy to keep level, you need to invest to progress, we are barely maintaining given DM’s own words about the quality of the signings not likely to keep us on a par with our peers.

I interpret that as a dereliction of the club and most obvious signs of club being close to not having sufficient funds to maintain it’s EPL status and losing that would bankrupt the club and lose your own defined ability to service current debts.

"I interpret that as a dereliction of the club and most obvious signs of club being close to not having sufficient funds to maintain it?s EPL status and losing that would bankrupt the club and lose your own defined ability to service current debts."

For a start, that’s not what your said. You said we are close to the receivers. Now you are claiming that we will go that way if we get relegated. I hardly think that is "close" by any definition.

Secondly, we didn’t sell lose seven players and buy one. Several of the players we lost we on loan. We have brought in 3 players on permanent contracts. You are skipping between different counting systems to fit your argument.

Thirdly, in our position we are not going to get relegated. In spite of your continued claims that Everton is a terribly run business, Everton actually make more money than most other Premier League teams.

Fourth, even if Everton were relegated, that STILL wouldn’t be enough to bankrupt the club. We’d have to sell our top players, sure, but if we were a championship club Yakubu wouldn’t be sticking around not matter what the financial situation.

So basically we are absolutely nowhere near the receivers. Stop scaremongering, or provide some evidence or reasoning to back up your arguments.

Simon
here are the losses since Kenwright has been in charge:-

2006/7 -9426
2005/06 -10.794
2004/05 23.509
2003/04 -15.376
2002/03 -12.980
2001/02 1.555
2000/01 -3.653
1999/00 -11.169


I find it hard to believe that most Premier League clubs other than the likes of Chelsea are consistently losing more money than EFC.

Can you provide the info?

I dont believe we are near the receivers either because the banks would not want to write off such a large amount and it?s really only them or the directors that would call in the receivers.

However I do believe the club has been incompetently and shambolically managed by the board and I believe the recent debt was stated to be over 60 million up from 6 million when Kenwright took over.

I genuinely believe that if we persist in Kirkby it will be the end of our club as a major force.

Championship standard stadium, major transport problems, lower gates long term, very little additional corporate income and massive debt.

Surely a recipe for disaster and not very appealing to any astute investor.

On another point surely you cannot dispute that irrespective of loans or purchases we have lost Carsley, McFadden, Johnson, Fernandes, Stubbs and Wessels from what was already considered a paper thin squad and replaced them with questionable players except for Paniani.

May I also ask what in your opinion is the reason Moyes,who is closer to what?s going on than the rest of us, has still not put pen to paper and why we ahve had 4 chief execs since Kenwright took over?

Well as BK is finding it more and more difficult each year to find money then he’s going to have to sell his shares at half price instead of holding out for top dollar.
That way a protential investor might just find it attractive enough to build a new stadium / redevelop Goodison and buy some players if he’s saving money on the purchase price.
I mean after all BK is a True Blue and will do what’s best for the Club rather than himself. Right?

"I find it hard to believe that most premiership clubs other than the likes of Chelsea are consistently losing more money than EFC.

Can you provide the info?"

I want to make this very clear to anybody else reading.

Jay has asked for these figures, because he believes that a comparison with other Premier League clubs will show Everton in a bad light. He believes that the figures for Everton are terrible, and that they are evidence that Kenwright has mismanaged Everton.

However:

Sunderland:
2006/07:-15.400
2005/06: 6.129
2004/05: -7.818
2003/04: -1.216
2002/03: -20.642

Man City:
/06: 13.211
2004/05: -12.405
2003/04: -13.759
2002/03: -14.103
2001/02: -13.882

Blackburn Rovers:
2005/06: -6.904
2004/05: -5.044
2003/04: -5.107
2002/03: -12.005
2001/02: -10.864
2000/01: -31.056
1999/00: -12.732
1998/99: -7.780

Middlesbrough:
2005/06: -13.345
2004/05: 5.775
2003/04: -21.793
2002/03: -17.213
2001/02: -16.157
2000/01: -21.919
1999/00: -17.338

But it?s pretty unfair to compare to them. Maybe a comparison to Aston Villa, a club with similar attendances to us and similar standing in the League. Of course, Villa was famously wonderfully well run by Ellis.

2006/07: -19.803
2005/06: -8.188
2004/05: -2.488
2003/04: -10.652
2002/03: -11.552

So there you have it. Everton: only run slightly better than Aston Villa under Doug Ellis.

"However I do believe the club has been incompetently and shambolically managed by the board and I believe the recent debt was stated to be over £60 million up from £6 million when Kenwright took over."

You heard wrong. The last published accounts had the debt around £29m. The £60m is a meaningless figure quoted by people who don?t understand accounting.

"On another point surely you cannot dispute that irrespective of loans or purchases we have lost Carsley, McFadden, Johnson, Fernandes, Stubbs and Wessels from what was already considered a paper thin squad and replaced them with questionable players except for Paniani."

That?s six players lost from the squad (McFadden was replaced by Fenandes). You can argue the new guys are "questionable" if you want.

However, the squad size argument is pretty much seperate from money. This is why: Moyes chose one £15m player. He could have bought 3 or 4 players worth about £4m each, that still would have been better than the players you listed. He didn?t; he chose one player. Manager?s choice, and personally I think it?s the right one in the long term (which is where all of our decisions should be rooted).

Don?t forget, there?s also Rodwell and Gosling to come in over the season (remember Gosling cost £2m; again, manager?s choice to spend the money on him rather than an immediate squad player).

"May I also ask what in your opinion is the reason Moyes,who is closer to what?s going on than the rest of us, has still not put pen to paper and why we ahve had 4 chief execs since Kenwright took over?"

It?s scary isn?t it. I think the most likely answer is that he wants to compete with the big 4 and wants assurances. Now, you are going to jump on that and pin it on Kenwright; however, which other club in the Premier League can compete with the Big 4? Only those run by Arabs billionaires.

Everton falling short of having £30m to spend on players isn?t necessarily a fault in Everton?s finances - you have to show it?s possible for a club of Everton?s size to (a) maintain a wage structure that keeps the likes of Arteta, Cahill, Lescott, Yakubu and Yobo at the club and (b) have another £30m to spend.

I have argued that it?s not reasonable to expect that from Kenwright. The fact is you cannot demonstrate a model from another Premier League club that would enable this. What you do Jay is just state the business is horribly run, occasionally quoting the odd figure totally out of context (see you earlier post for a good example). You state as fact that others are run better, without any evidence.

Simon
in the petition for the EGM the shareholders quote a TOTAL debtor/creditor liability of £59 million and BK himself has stated that the club are over £60 million in debt.

Now I know we can all extract figures from somewhere and make a statement with them but the shareholders can't be wrong can they?

Thank you, Simon, for taking the trouble to illustrate my ever-strong belief that our club is among the best run in the whole Premier League. Why so many people want to perpetrate the myth that we are at death?s door is totally beyond me.

How many times does Bill and the other top brass have to say that the only reason we can?t compete with the Man Us of this world is that it is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE to generate enough match-day income at Goodison Park. That is why the proposed move to Kirkby is now AN ABSOLUTE MUST.
And a PS to Gavin. Bill DID find the money! £22M to be exact in transfers, agents fees and new salaries. So what?s your gripe?

Gavin ? to criticise with no suggestion for a remedy is too easy.

BK Out! BK Out! BK Out

Errrrrr..........

"in the petition for the EGM the shareholders quote a TOTAL debtor/creditor liability of £59 million"

And that’s a meaningless figure.

Let’s have a couple of examples to show why.

(1) Everton sold, what, about 20000 season tickets? Let’s say, hypothetically, the club sold 30000 tickets instead, and took in an extra £7m.

(2) Let’s say, hypthetically, Everton sold Arteta for £25m (fee to be received in full on day one) and replaced him with Stephen Hunt (fee of £5m to be paid over five years).


You would think that both of these would reduce debt, yes? Actually, they wouldn’t if we use your measure. (1) would increase debt by £7m, and (2) would increase it by £5m.

And that’s why it’s a meaningless figure.



There are many different definitions of debt, exactly for the reason that all companies are different, and what is important varies by industry.

However, when quoting debt, gross liabilities is the obvious one to pick if you want to paint things in their worst possible light, which is obviously what the shareholders did. As far as I can see, in the EGM literature, no claims whatsoever are made about the figure - it’s just put on there to look bad. They don’t make any claims at all about this figure.

And that’s the important point about ALL these figures you keep quoting Jay. You need to consider these things IN CONTEXT. "Everton are £60m in debt". It sounds bad.

"Everton have total liabilities of £60m, though bank debt is only £29m. This figure is significantly lower than most other Premier League teams. Everton also have future income from transfers to offset against this; any future payments are clearly able to be met byfuture income, and the business is cash generating before transfer business".

That’s also a true statement. Obviously the shareholders are’t going to write that though, and you wouldn’t expect them to.

Context.

Richard Dodd:

"Thank you, Simon, for taking the trouble to illustrate my ever-strong belief that our club is among the best run in the whole Premier League. "

Sorry, but I didn?t do that. Please don?t quote me out of context.

What I was showing was that the figures that Jay quoted (that he believed showed Everton to be amongst the worst run clubs) did not, in fact, show that; and in fact, if you use those figures as a yardstick, show Everton in a favourable light.

This does NOT, repeat NOT, prove anything about how well Everton are run.

The point that I am making is that Everton are reasonably well run, but more importantly that nothing would change if Kenwright left, unless he was replaced by a benefactor (not an investor). The belief that a "businessman" could take over Everton and generate an extra £20m a year is simply not true, a fact you can see by looking at every other Premier League club outside the Big 4. Only Spurs make more money than us of those clubs, due to their geography.