The Mail Bag
RIP The People's Club
Comments (75)
On Wednesday the 3rd of September 2008, Bill Kenwright addressed shareholders with this statement;
"I thought the presentation was terrific. I think Robert, in the 5 weeks he's been at the job, has done an extraordinary job. I think he'll continue to do an extraordinary job. When Keith Wyness left, he and I had a meeting within 24 hrs and I said there is a feeling in the football club that communications are not good. I want an open door policy and all the different factions about this, about everything. It's an emotional issue, which should be listened to and supported. ".
On the same evening, the CEO of Everton Football Club said;
"I think a couple of things that came out loud and clear is that the door is open at this Club."
Today, Wednesday the 10th of September, the major shareholders of Everton Football Club have through the official site announced an amendment to its Articles of Association in relation to the petitioning, by shareholders, for the convening of General Meetings;
"In future, shareholders wishing to convene such a meeting will be required to garner the support of members representing at least ten per cent of the paid-up capital of the Company (Companies Act 2006).
The Club required ? and has now attained ? signed copies of the resolution from shareholders holding in excess of 75 per cent of the total voting rights of eligible members. Accordingly, the resolution has been passed....."
RIP The People's Club.
Neil Adderley, Posted 10/09/2008 at 13:15:42
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Never has a truer phrase been said....
One thing this move now proves even more, is that BK is the shithouse I always thought he was.
Peoples club, my arse.
Peoples club, my arse.
Fully agree EFC - RIP.
They should rip that bloody Peoples Club crap down off the stands straight away.
How stupid we’ve all been and even more naive. To think that we thought we supported a special club.
They should rip that bloody Peoples Club crap down off the stands straight away.
How stupid we’ve all been and even more naive. To think that we thought we supported a special club.
Just reading the few comments above and no doubt there will be many more. It is very sad that people feel as they do. Are they even aware that they are creating a very big gap between themselves and the people who help keep this club going.
Wake up Kenwright.
Wake up Kenwright.
None of this authoritarian, dictatorship behaviour surprises me. I have supported this club from long before it was labelled the ?People?s Club? by a rather naieve David Moyes. There have always been problems in ownership/ the boardroom at Everton. The club has been consistent only in its total lack of ability to respect and involve the fans; to treat them shoddily and be a laughing stock.
How anyone can consider continuing to support this charade is anyone?s guess. But judging by some of the comments elsewhere there are plenty of imbecilic Evertonians about who can?t see the wood for the trees. What would be really good now is for Everton to get relegated, suffer dire economic circumstances and eventually go out of business. Doubtless, there will still be blues fans turning up for the non-game at Goodison.... what a load of plonkers!!!
How anyone can consider continuing to support this charade is anyone?s guess. But judging by some of the comments elsewhere there are plenty of imbecilic Evertonians about who can?t see the wood for the trees. What would be really good now is for Everton to get relegated, suffer dire economic circumstances and eventually go out of business. Doubtless, there will still be blues fans turning up for the non-game at Goodison.... what a load of plonkers!!!
Sadly, I believe the post is absolutely correct.
On the Offical Site, the Club proclaims that it is in the best interests of the Club to amend the rules i.e. to avoid ?washing the dirty laundry in public?! If the Club had credible answers to questions raised, then surely forums such as EGMs would serve to show the Club in a good light.
To my mind, it seems the Board is concerned that the recent EGM served to highlight a degree of spurious logic and ?smoke and mirrors? type tactics used by the Board that shows the Club in a rather dimmer light. As an example, I find it hard to understand how the Board?s redevelopment option on GP used such an obviously flawed approach i.e. why did they only appear to focus on the Bullens Road Stand for a rebuild that straight away brings in problems with needing to extend the footprint by taking over the school, garage and housing!?! Surely the potential to massively extend the Park End would provide significantly increased capacity at a much reduced cost.
On a related point, since the crux of this issue is the stadium debate, the board seemed very confident in having access to £78 million for stadium costs if required for DK. Well, if that is true, I would imagine the Club could find the money to renovate the existing stadium grounds and re-do and extend the Park End for a much lesser sum. Maybe if that happened the Club could give the manager greater transfer budget (due to avoiding the high cost commitment to DK), which could put us in the CL group stages without overstretching, a la Leeds, then the CL revenue and on-pitch success means we are getting higher income through the gate and through TV deals and prize money etc.
That way, the Club would be making profit based on the on-the-pitch success, which could then mean, in time, we could self finance a proper renovation of GP, or a new proper stadium in a proper location elsewhere in the City. On pitch success may even make us attractive to a Billionaire who may be able to solve the ground problem without having to settle for second best in Kirkby.
If it is worth having it is worth waiting for...
Fail to see a major problem here. If there?s an issue that needs risen badly enough, then finding the required 10% shouldn?t be too much of a problem.
At the recent EGM, was anything that we didn?t already know brought to light or any existing problems/queries resolved?... Seemed like a complete waste of time, effort and club cash that should be avoided again unless desperately necessary.
I suppose people will say that the board?s lying about this being the accepted way of doing things at other clubs, but it strikes me as an important step towards attracting a major investor (that isn?t a fan) is for Everton to actually be seen to run as a business, not a socialist free-for-all.
You?ll find that this ?dictatorial? 10% stakeholder requirement for calling an EGM is the accepted norm (and legal minimum) for businesses around the democratic world. And no, I?m not a Ken-lover, I just don?t see what?s wrong with the club being run properly and efficiently (or at least introducing changes that bring us closer to being so).
At the recent EGM, was anything that we didn?t already know brought to light or any existing problems/queries resolved?... Seemed like a complete waste of time, effort and club cash that should be avoided again unless desperately necessary.
I suppose people will say that the board?s lying about this being the accepted way of doing things at other clubs, but it strikes me as an important step towards attracting a major investor (that isn?t a fan) is for Everton to actually be seen to run as a business, not a socialist free-for-all.
You?ll find that this ?dictatorial? 10% stakeholder requirement for calling an EGM is the accepted norm (and legal minimum) for businesses around the democratic world. And no, I?m not a Ken-lover, I just don?t see what?s wrong with the club being run properly and efficiently (or at least introducing changes that bring us closer to being so).
I am with Scott on this one!
Stuart - Bit harsh that mate. I can't bear to see what is going on at the club but I wouldn't go as far as you. Do you go the match now and if so why?
We have always prided ourselves on our support and its quite obvious that you don't.
End of Everton, I don.t think so.
We have always prided ourselves on our support and its quite obvious that you don't.
End of Everton, I don.t think so.
Stephen Stuart
"None of this authoritarian, dictatorship behaviour surprises me."
Well by the sounds of it you won’t be an Evertonian by the time Bill sells the Club to a people friendly billionnaire! In fact are you one now? Doesn’t sound like.
I don’t know how old you are (you sound young and naive) but were you moaning about the boardroom problems in the mid 80’s?
Unfortunately football is not about the ordinary people anymore. It hasn’t been for the last 15 years. Ordinary people like me, "plonkers" as you call us, will carry on watching Everton but that is because the club means more to us than it does to you.
I’m sorry my first post on this site had to be a bit of a rant at someone who aint worth it!
"None of this authoritarian, dictatorship behaviour surprises me."
Well by the sounds of it you won’t be an Evertonian by the time Bill sells the Club to a people friendly billionnaire! In fact are you one now? Doesn’t sound like.
I don’t know how old you are (you sound young and naive) but were you moaning about the boardroom problems in the mid 80’s?
Unfortunately football is not about the ordinary people anymore. It hasn’t been for the last 15 years. Ordinary people like me, "plonkers" as you call us, will carry on watching Everton but that is because the club means more to us than it does to you.
I’m sorry my first post on this site had to be a bit of a rant at someone who aint worth it!
Howard - Take this as your first well said from me.
I am another "plonker" who goes the match. I am even going to Liege, I must be a right prick!
I am another "plonker" who goes the match. I am even going to Liege, I must be a right prick!
"How anyone can consider continuing to support this charade is anyone?s guess. But judging by some of the comments elsewhere there are plenty of imbecilic Evertonians about who can?t see the wood for the trees. What would be really good now is for Everton to get relegated, suffer dire economic circumstances and eventually go out of business. Doubtless, there will still be blues fans turning up for the non-game at Goodison....what a load of plonkers!!!"
Unbelievable!!!
I Despair
Unbelievable!!!
I Despair
Stephen Stuart
I'm no Kenwright supporter, far from it, but judging by the comments you?ve made, you can?t be an Everton supporter. If you are, which I doubt, then who needs supporters like you. You are the plonker here!!
I'm no Kenwright supporter, far from it, but judging by the comments you?ve made, you can?t be an Everton supporter. If you are, which I doubt, then who needs supporters like you. You are the plonker here!!
This is the fault of the shareholders who were going to constantly call EGMs every few weeks like petulant children. A system was in place but some shareholders were taking advantage of it. Its these shareholders who are to blame. This site, as always, doesn?t give a balanced view to such issues.
Supporters support their club. That?s what they do. How does hoping for relegation do this?
I understand why they did it, but I agree the People's Club banner is a bit hollow... Look on the street, the kids on the street support Liverpool or can't get hold of our kit. That's my gripe... that's what pisses me off. My photographic studio used to be resplendent with kids in Everton kits; now its mini "Stevie G" las.
Please, fellow Evertonians, put your kits on and be proud! Complain, object, whatever ? just be a blue and be proud to show it. Sorry for sounding like our Phil... I'm going now.
Quote
"This is a small part of this organisation which was founded in 1938 under the auspices of Mr R E Searle who was later to become a director of the club.
It is interesting to note that the original intention of the Shareholders Association was that it should act in the interests of the club... It was to become a form of "watch dog" over important matters concerning the club and was responsible for supervision of transactions and sales of shares.
This description still carries weight today almost 65 years on ." unquote
This extract was taken directly from the official site.www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders.html
Maybe the club don?t know what is written on the website although I would imagine this will be edited pretty soon.
"This is a small part of this organisation which was founded in 1938 under the auspices of Mr R E Searle who was later to become a director of the club.
It is interesting to note that the original intention of the Shareholders Association was that it should act in the interests of the club... It was to become a form of "watch dog" over important matters concerning the club and was responsible for supervision of transactions and sales of shares.
This description still carries weight today almost 65 years on ." unquote
This extract was taken directly from the official site.www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders.html
Maybe the club don?t know what is written on the website although I would imagine this will be edited pretty soon.
I?m glad to have shaken things up a bit.
Bill Kenwright runs this club NOT in the interest of Everton FC BUT in the interest of Bill Kenwright. There?s plenty of evidence to support this. His claims of working 24/7 and now this tightening of the rules. How much more will it take for fans to wake up to what is going on here? It parallels New labour?s claims to support the ?working man? and fight poverty ? SPIN SPIN SPIN. Why can?t you see it??
You can challenge me all you like, I don?t have to justify myself to anyone ? after all, if Bill can get away with it, why can?t I?? It?s Bill you should be challenging NOT ME. If you really support this club you should be asking questions of the people who run the club ? Oh, sorry, they?ve changed the rules and you can?t now ? oh, dear!!
Bill Kenwright runs this club NOT in the interest of Everton FC BUT in the interest of Bill Kenwright. There?s plenty of evidence to support this. His claims of working 24/7 and now this tightening of the rules. How much more will it take for fans to wake up to what is going on here? It parallels New labour?s claims to support the ?working man? and fight poverty ? SPIN SPIN SPIN. Why can?t you see it??
You can challenge me all you like, I don?t have to justify myself to anyone ? after all, if Bill can get away with it, why can?t I?? It?s Bill you should be challenging NOT ME. If you really support this club you should be asking questions of the people who run the club ? Oh, sorry, they?ve changed the rules and you can?t now ? oh, dear!!
That’s the way, Stephen Stuart ... spit out complete utter tripe and then take umbrage and distance yourself from any comeback, blame or responsibility for your words.
Very grown up of you. Oh dear indeed...
On a more worrying note, Jacobsen has just been taken off nearing half-time in Denmark’s game with Portugal this evening. He fell very awkwardly and was in obvious pain. Not clear at the moment whether he has dislocated his shoulder or possibly even broken his arm.
Interestingly, he was also wearing the number six shirt and playing on the left at the CENTRE of the defence.
Very grown up of you. Oh dear indeed...
On a more worrying note, Jacobsen has just been taken off nearing half-time in Denmark’s game with Portugal this evening. He fell very awkwardly and was in obvious pain. Not clear at the moment whether he has dislocated his shoulder or possibly even broken his arm.
Interestingly, he was also wearing the number six shirt and playing on the left at the CENTRE of the defence.
I dont see a problem with this move, I?m sorry but stop the fuck moaning about everything. I watch, check, read Everton 24hrs a day ? my wife thinks ?checking Everton? is a tick ? and although I run my own business I can't claim to understand the pressures and the figures involved at this level ? but I can imagine. Football is big business and we are but the pawns. Why would they want to hear drunken, heart-over-head views or the impassioned pleas of the average man?
For fuck's sake, grow up - the ?People?s club? was meant to mean ?the people on the street support Everton?, not, ?we must listen to every half-baked rant from random blues up and down the country?. It?s a business ? they are business men, they have more money than you and me because they are better than me and you at it. Let them run Everton and let us just support the team. That?s our job, if you are lucky enough to have enough money to do otherwise then I will happily listen.
As our country heads towards another recession, and we have less and less money, people are quick to moan but I think we need to step back and look at what Everton have got and what they have (over)achieved. Look at our peers. We are doing quite nicely when you put it in context. IMWT.
Ste Lewis, how do you know what "the people's club" was meant to mean, that the people on the streets support Everton? Did you speak to Davey after he made it? It?s because of gullible fans like you, that BK and his cronies get away with all this fucking bullshit. I?m just glad that there are fans amongst us who don?t fall for all the crap.
Can anyone name any other football club or indeed business in the whole of the United Kingdom that has ever allowed a small minority of shareholders to call EGMs every couple of weeks as a deliberate attempt to slow down and disrupt its ordinary ongoing business?
Or Neil, to turn your question around.
Can you name a company in the whole of the UK, where the guy who silences the minority of shareholders, answers questions with gems like "don't ask me ? I?m just the chairman"?
Can you name a company in the whole of the UK, where the guy who silences the minority of shareholders, answers questions with gems like "don't ask me ? I?m just the chairman"?
Brian Waring said:
"Ste Lewis, how do you know "the people's club" was meant to mean, that the people on the streets support Everton? Did you speak to Davey after he made it?"
Don?t know Ste or Moyes personally, but it?s reasonable to assume that Davey has never spoken to Ste in person. But then... Ste didn?t need to hear directly from Moyes what he meant. As was clearly reported at the time, Moyes was moved to make his comment because, on the way to his first press conference when he made "the People?s Club" comment he observed that the presence of Everton supporters "on the streets of Liverpool" seemed overwhelming, as did the kind comments he received from those he came into contact that day.
So... a pretty legit observation by Ste in my book.
But evidently, not for you, Brian. No... you pile into Ste with the snide comment: "It?s because of gullible fans like you, that BK and his cronies get away with all this fucking bullshit."
Oh really...? Personally, I have no problem with shareholders calling the first EGM as they did. I think the meeting was extremely constructive. But for some to threaten to call monthly EGMs for no other reason than to be disruptive, that doesn?t get my sympathy and the club has done nothing extreme in diminishing that threat.
You close by saying: "I?m just glad that there are fans amongst us, who don?t fall for all the crap."
I?ll close by saying that I?m glad that there are supporters like Ste - and others, as this and other threads show - that are NOT so quick to criticise and condemn the club on every fart, cough and belch, real, imagined or fabricated.
"Ste Lewis, how do you know "the people's club" was meant to mean, that the people on the streets support Everton? Did you speak to Davey after he made it?"
Don?t know Ste or Moyes personally, but it?s reasonable to assume that Davey has never spoken to Ste in person. But then... Ste didn?t need to hear directly from Moyes what he meant. As was clearly reported at the time, Moyes was moved to make his comment because, on the way to his first press conference when he made "the People?s Club" comment he observed that the presence of Everton supporters "on the streets of Liverpool" seemed overwhelming, as did the kind comments he received from those he came into contact that day.
So... a pretty legit observation by Ste in my book.
But evidently, not for you, Brian. No... you pile into Ste with the snide comment: "It?s because of gullible fans like you, that BK and his cronies get away with all this fucking bullshit."
Oh really...? Personally, I have no problem with shareholders calling the first EGM as they did. I think the meeting was extremely constructive. But for some to threaten to call monthly EGMs for no other reason than to be disruptive, that doesn?t get my sympathy and the club has done nothing extreme in diminishing that threat.
You close by saying: "I?m just glad that there are fans amongst us, who don?t fall for all the crap."
I?ll close by saying that I?m glad that there are supporters like Ste - and others, as this and other threads show - that are NOT so quick to criticise and condemn the club on every fart, cough and belch, real, imagined or fabricated.
Neil Pearse - you do not honestly believe that 20% of shareholders would be signing requisition forms to call EGMs ’every couple of weeks’ do you? No, thought not.
I suspect that as a shareholder, Bill Kenwright read these questions http://www.scribd.com/doc/5363857/New-EGM-Petition and thought ’Fuck that!’ I’d imagine his next move would have been to contact the club solicitor for a ’get out.’ Let’s face it, cutting off the one public line of communication with shareholders is preferable to Kenwright than facing (amongst other qusetions) an interegation of how he has managed the finances under his tenure.
Bill Kenwright has overseen a split in the fanbase over Kirkby and has now publicly burnt all bridges with a large number of shareholders..........leaving only a handful, who under the leadership of Kenwright, have finally retreated into the Goodison Bunker.
Shambles.
I suspect that as a shareholder, Bill Kenwright read these questions http://www.scribd.com/doc/5363857/New-EGM-Petition and thought ’Fuck that!’ I’d imagine his next move would have been to contact the club solicitor for a ’get out.’ Let’s face it, cutting off the one public line of communication with shareholders is preferable to Kenwright than facing (amongst other qusetions) an interegation of how he has managed the finances under his tenure.
Bill Kenwright has overseen a split in the fanbase over Kirkby and has now publicly burnt all bridges with a large number of shareholders..........leaving only a handful, who under the leadership of Kenwright, have finally retreated into the Goodison Bunker.
Shambles.
It's a disgace!! That's all I can say... I'm speechless!
Going back to what Neil said, about the myth of the People’s club now being laid to rest. I believe he’s right.
Everton Football club is a business and we support it or not, as our beliefs dictate. But lets not kid ourselves it’s the people’s club, it isn’t. Its a business who has decided to move to Kirkby.
Personally, I think the reasons that we have been given for doing so, don’t add up.
"A stadium for almost nothing." I don’t think so.
"Ten million pounds extra for players a year." Nope, what was stated in the glossy brochure we received was "UP TO £10 million a year. This would depend on the attendance reaching maximum capacity for every game in every season..
"Goodison Park cannot be redeveloped." I just don’t believe the club.
So in the end each one of us has a choice to make. The club will not listen to any other proposals and, in my case, they have caused me to say I can’t (won’t) go the match with the knowledge the club is intent of moving from this city.
Others will make a different choice, well, good luck to them and the club. I just can’t see it as my club any more.
I’m going to see Alex Young tomorrow and a fair number of Goodison Greats as well, and I think that will be a suitable time to call it a day and realise that it will be the end of my dream to see Everton as a great team in this City again
Everton Football club is a business and we support it or not, as our beliefs dictate. But lets not kid ourselves it’s the people’s club, it isn’t. Its a business who has decided to move to Kirkby.
Personally, I think the reasons that we have been given for doing so, don’t add up.
"A stadium for almost nothing." I don’t think so.
"Ten million pounds extra for players a year." Nope, what was stated in the glossy brochure we received was "UP TO £10 million a year. This would depend on the attendance reaching maximum capacity for every game in every season..
"Goodison Park cannot be redeveloped." I just don’t believe the club.
So in the end each one of us has a choice to make. The club will not listen to any other proposals and, in my case, they have caused me to say I can’t (won’t) go the match with the knowledge the club is intent of moving from this city.
Others will make a different choice, well, good luck to them and the club. I just can’t see it as my club any more.
I’m going to see Alex Young tomorrow and a fair number of Goodison Greats as well, and I think that will be a suitable time to call it a day and realise that it will be the end of my dream to see Everton as a great team in this City again
Stephen Stuart has hit the nail on the head. I must admit I see Bill Kenwright as being a total phoney and his grand statements and theatrical posturing are so obviously transparent. I'm amazed he's gotten away with his act for this long.
A sensible decision.
I can only believe those who thought the EGM would be one PERSON one VOTE had never been involved in any other company meeting. What do you expect - "Yes I know you own 98% but me and my mate who own 1% each can out vote you"
So what do we do - we have to spend pounds on arranging a meeting which was nothing more than an excuse to moan, Now we have stopped that waste of an exercise.
We all think Football Clubs are different to any other business. It has never been that way. In fact, I reckon it is more open now than it ever has been when we never even knew who the board was and they for sure never talked in public. But what do we expect? When we get upset with Asda, do we start shopping at Tesco - and when we are upset with Everton, will we start supporting Liverpool? Of course not. But when Asda does something we write to them as CUSTOMERS - and for the most of us that is all we are as EVERTONIANS. And would we expect Asda to decide something which is not in the best interests of their business, not in the interests of the people who own them but do what their customers want them to do - but customers who will stay with them even if they ignore them?
Can we please stop dreaming, living in a land which does not exist and remember THIS IS BUSINESS.
I can only believe those who thought the EGM would be one PERSON one VOTE had never been involved in any other company meeting. What do you expect - "Yes I know you own 98% but me and my mate who own 1% each can out vote you"
So what do we do - we have to spend pounds on arranging a meeting which was nothing more than an excuse to moan, Now we have stopped that waste of an exercise.
We all think Football Clubs are different to any other business. It has never been that way. In fact, I reckon it is more open now than it ever has been when we never even knew who the board was and they for sure never talked in public. But what do we expect? When we get upset with Asda, do we start shopping at Tesco - and when we are upset with Everton, will we start supporting Liverpool? Of course not. But when Asda does something we write to them as CUSTOMERS - and for the most of us that is all we are as EVERTONIANS. And would we expect Asda to decide something which is not in the best interests of their business, not in the interests of the people who own them but do what their customers want them to do - but customers who will stay with them even if they ignore them?
Can we please stop dreaming, living in a land which does not exist and remember THIS IS BUSINESS.
Well done Everton! At last you have decided to run the club as it should be by the owners. You can?t run a business by allowing the minority to undermine the power and stability of the company; this is prudent business and is a step forward in EFC being run professionally.
Football fans are fickle and that has been proven by the replies posted after this thread, we all love EFC but we don?t own EFC Co Ltd ? this is owned by the Shareholders as it is across commercial world. Managers, Directors and CEOs have to make decisions on a daily basis and most of this must be done behind closed doors, EFC are not Ebbsfleet United.
Some of you live in a dream world and actually believe we are the ?People's Club? ? this is a statement that was said tongue-in-cheek. The majority stakeholders need to protect their interests and that what?s they are doing, if their value goes up or wealth increases it's because as a Club we are doing well, so as fans we all get a tangible benefit. Please deal in reality; it makes it a little clearer COYB
People = just shareholders?
I don’t think so!
I don’t think so!
Neil Adderley: do I honestly believe that small shareholders would be forcing EGMs every couple of weeks? Well that’s certainly what some said they were going to do.
To be honest, as far as I can see the obsession seems to be to secure a completely ludicrous ’one person one vote’ as a publicity stunt so that the Nos can crow that the result of last year’s ballot has been overturned and the club no longer has any mandate to pursue the only attractive and affordable option we actually have - Kirkby.
I don’t know any business which would make it easy for its minority shareholders to pull publicity stunts against the interests of the business.
To be honest, as far as I can see the obsession seems to be to secure a completely ludicrous ’one person one vote’ as a publicity stunt so that the Nos can crow that the result of last year’s ballot has been overturned and the club no longer has any mandate to pursue the only attractive and affordable option we actually have - Kirkby.
I don’t know any business which would make it easy for its minority shareholders to pull publicity stunts against the interests of the business.
We were never ?The People?s Club? and are never likely to be so. Those with long memories will recall that John Moores ran it as a personal fiefdom and was far more intolerant of the masses than the present incumbent. Catterick would give the fans the snot off his nose... You can take it from me that Moyes never coined the now hollow phrase. It was suggested to him by a member of Rossey?s Pravda as he took the stage for his anointing as manager.
Football Clubs don?t belong to ?the people? and, apart from Nottm Forest, they never did. They are the tools by which modern owners seek credibility, money movement and in most cases bank huge fortunes on selling up.
Stop being so idealistic and just try to enjoy what you see on the field ? wherever that might be!
If a random billionaire such as Roman Abramovich was to buy the club then how many shareholders would we have then? Just the one! And then how would you call a shareholders meeting. If you don?t want to go to the match because you don?t like the owner then how can you call yourself a fan? It's time to stop the bickering amongst ourselves, we?re all Everton Fans, why can?t we put the our money where our mouth is like the RS seem to be doing and build a fund to buy the club and run it how we want it?
It?s never been the "People?s Club" any more than any other Premier League club. It was just a phrase cleverly used by Moyes to endear himself to the supporters, what he was inferring related to the fact that EFC garners more local support than LFC, nothing else. I think he was right and if we move to Kirby we will certainly be giving up any claim to that fact.
As for EFC, it is a business struggling to compete in a very competitive industry, not brilliantly run but gets more out of it?s budget than most. EGMs are a pain for any business, they cost money and generally produce very little in the way of progress or results, I think we all need a dose of realism here. RIP the People?s club? I?m afraid it never really existed to start with, mate.
I?d wish so called intelligent fans would grow up and stop hanging on to this "People?s Club" tag .
The only clubs that need their fans are those from the lower leagues, Blue Square Conf, Div 2, Div 1 etc. THEY need the fans as that is the only form of income they get ? they are "People?s Clubs" ? without the fans these clubs wouldn?t exist.
Once you're in the Premier League, the clubs belong to either the media or by independent wealthy owners, they are the ones who generate the incomes for the clubs, the fans contribute a proportion only. Just look at what happens with the fixtures every year ? there is no thought of the fans, the clubs might moan as Chelsea did last year when their fixture against us was re-arranged for Sky, but at the end of the day Everton said sod-all as they knew they were getting an extra £500k for a televised game.
That?s the way it is, look at England games at the moment ? Setanta, 1.1 million audience, what a joke.
The only clubs that need their fans are those from the lower leagues, Blue Square Conf, Div 2, Div 1 etc. THEY need the fans as that is the only form of income they get ? they are "People?s Clubs" ? without the fans these clubs wouldn?t exist.
Once you're in the Premier League, the clubs belong to either the media or by independent wealthy owners, they are the ones who generate the incomes for the clubs, the fans contribute a proportion only. Just look at what happens with the fixtures every year ? there is no thought of the fans, the clubs might moan as Chelsea did last year when their fixture against us was re-arranged for Sky, but at the end of the day Everton said sod-all as they knew they were getting an extra £500k for a televised game.
That?s the way it is, look at England games at the moment ? Setanta, 1.1 million audience, what a joke.
We play in the best league in the world, we have some of the finest players in the world... but it comes at a price ? namely the fans are an afterthought. Get used to it or go and watch Marine.
Being a good socialist myself, I'm all for seeing more debate over club issues but if, as what seems to be the case after reading the EGM transcipt, I had to put up with the sly comments and insults that Bill had to put up with (I'm no fan of his by the way) on the night I would do exactly the same.
Yes, a lot of us are frustrated about the direction that BK is taking us but I found a lot of the questioning bizarre (why did someone slag off his friendship with Philip Green for example? ? he's the one keeping us afloat at the moment) and why pick on that bird answering questions about the network rail timetable?
Would have been of more use grilling him on the financial costs of the move and asking him to explain in more details what Tesco are offering that Bestway and Sainsbury seemingly cannot.
It takes a lot of balls to stand up and argue in these kind of meetings so I commend the people who got it arranged but I think in many ways it was a missed opportunity... and now possibly the last one we had.
Yes, a lot of us are frustrated about the direction that BK is taking us but I found a lot of the questioning bizarre (why did someone slag off his friendship with Philip Green for example? ? he's the one keeping us afloat at the moment) and why pick on that bird answering questions about the network rail timetable?
Would have been of more use grilling him on the financial costs of the move and asking him to explain in more details what Tesco are offering that Bestway and Sainsbury seemingly cannot.
It takes a lot of balls to stand up and argue in these kind of meetings so I commend the people who got it arranged but I think in many ways it was a missed opportunity... and now possibly the last one we had.
Oh no!
What can new thing can we find to bitch and moan about today regarding Everton Football Club?
Transfers? Moyes? BK? DK? Goodison Park? Nah, they’ve all been done to death.
Must be something else for us to really let rip on...hmmmm...er...Got it! Lets spit our venom and bile on the subject of the new procedures for calling Extraordinary General Meetings!!!
Yes EGM’s. If nothing else EFC’s policy on calling EGM’s was something I ALWAYS felt proud of. If that bastard Kenwright thinks he can shift the goalposts now and move himself in line with every other club and institution in the country, well the sheer cheek of the man. I for one won’t stand for it. Let’s boycott the next 10 home games and burn our season ticket - that will show them that NOBODY messes with OUR EGM procedures!
What can new thing can we find to bitch and moan about today regarding Everton Football Club?
Transfers? Moyes? BK? DK? Goodison Park? Nah, they’ve all been done to death.
Must be something else for us to really let rip on...hmmmm...er...Got it! Lets spit our venom and bile on the subject of the new procedures for calling Extraordinary General Meetings!!!
Yes EGM’s. If nothing else EFC’s policy on calling EGM’s was something I ALWAYS felt proud of. If that bastard Kenwright thinks he can shift the goalposts now and move himself in line with every other club and institution in the country, well the sheer cheek of the man. I for one won’t stand for it. Let’s boycott the next 10 home games and burn our season ticket - that will show them that NOBODY messes with OUR EGM procedures!
For all of you who rant about how EFC are a business and we are just silly heart-over-head supporters who dont understand the nuances of running a business etc. Just a point: those of us who attend matches are the customers of this very well run business? Aand many of these dolts are thinking of ditching this particular product e.g EFC.
What amuses me is that the same people who espouse how supporters must subscribe to business principles implore us to be loyal customers of a product that treats its customer base with contempt. Many of the posters on this thread are keen to use business parlance and address us luddites in a patronising tone. You insult the intelligence of people who have the audacity to question the business practise of those who run EFC. Art and others appear to have a blind faith that people who are in charge of a business, automatically know best. The world of finance and industry is littered with tales of woe because those in charge were dismissive and arrogant of their customers' needs.
Is this an enterprise that puts its customers first? I would suggest not. It is an enterprise that does not tap into the expertise and knowledge base that its customers have and are willing to share for the good of the business. No, it is autocratic, arrogant and is doing a good job IMHO of alienating a good many of its customers. (And it's not just the DK issue is it? Poor PR, Woeful project management strategies, pitiful financial forecasting and invisible marketing all add to the ire of many fans).
Maybe Robert Elstone and BK should read Clay Shirky's book "Here comes everybody" for a glimpse of the future direction for business. I
We may be impassioned fans that disagree with the way this club is being run but that does not make us luddites or ill informed. The haughty tone of many of the posts on this thread sticks in my throat.
What amuses me is that the same people who espouse how supporters must subscribe to business principles implore us to be loyal customers of a product that treats its customer base with contempt. Many of the posters on this thread are keen to use business parlance and address us luddites in a patronising tone. You insult the intelligence of people who have the audacity to question the business practise of those who run EFC. Art and others appear to have a blind faith that people who are in charge of a business, automatically know best. The world of finance and industry is littered with tales of woe because those in charge were dismissive and arrogant of their customers' needs.
Is this an enterprise that puts its customers first? I would suggest not. It is an enterprise that does not tap into the expertise and knowledge base that its customers have and are willing to share for the good of the business. No, it is autocratic, arrogant and is doing a good job IMHO of alienating a good many of its customers. (And it's not just the DK issue is it? Poor PR, Woeful project management strategies, pitiful financial forecasting and invisible marketing all add to the ire of many fans).
Maybe Robert Elstone and BK should read Clay Shirky's book "Here comes everybody" for a glimpse of the future direction for business. I
We may be impassioned fans that disagree with the way this club is being run but that does not make us luddites or ill informed. The haughty tone of many of the posts on this thread sticks in my throat.
Of course "The Peoples Club" motto was manufactured and I think it is safe to assume that I wasn?t the only Blue who have found it cringeworthy since the words were first muttered ? this is not to say that many thousands of Evertonians didn?t literally buy into it and the current board haven?t milked it for all it was worth.
No doubt as part of the new ?hard nose business? vision of the board, (how quickly things change) they will strip away the "The Peoples Club" image as quickly as they dumped the "open door" policy promised at last weeks EGM.
They wouldn?t want to be stringing the ?loyal? supporters along any further now, would they?
No doubt as part of the new ?hard nose business? vision of the board, (how quickly things change) they will strip away the "The Peoples Club" image as quickly as they dumped the "open door" policy promised at last weeks EGM.
They wouldn?t want to be stringing the ?loyal? supporters along any further now, would they?
I think calling for another EGM before the first one had even taking place was a bit of a stupid act.
If it was my business I would be doing the same thing, the last thing we need is to be a laughing stock... no one is ever going to agree with everything but questioning the board like this is only going to cause damage to the club.
Do you think an investor is going to be interested in a club that is be continuously ridiculed by its main customer base week after week??
If it was my business I would be doing the same thing, the last thing we need is to be a laughing stock... no one is ever going to agree with everything but questioning the board like this is only going to cause damage to the club.
Do you think an investor is going to be interested in a club that is be continuously ridiculed by its main customer base week after week??
To all those who mourn the demise of ?The Peoples Club.?
Any vague notion of being involved in the running of the club is complete nonsense. Your relationship with Everton is that of a paying customer in a part of the entertainment industry.
Because football gets you emotionally involved, and because you share that experience with friends and family, it feels a lot more personal than lots of other forms of entertainment... but that is what it is.
The Premier League and Sky involvement made things even more distant. If clubs gave a damn about English football they would never have formed the Premier League in the first place.
Let the Directors direct and pay your money as long as it suits you. If you want to really be involved then a Premier League club is not a good choice to support.
Any vague notion of being involved in the running of the club is complete nonsense. Your relationship with Everton is that of a paying customer in a part of the entertainment industry.
Because football gets you emotionally involved, and because you share that experience with friends and family, it feels a lot more personal than lots of other forms of entertainment... but that is what it is.
The Premier League and Sky involvement made things even more distant. If clubs gave a damn about English football they would never have formed the Premier League in the first place.
Let the Directors direct and pay your money as long as it suits you. If you want to really be involved then a Premier League club is not a good choice to support.
Do you fellas (and broads) know that no-one outside of a few Everton forums even care about this People's Club tag??
It was a phrase used over 5 YEARS AGO, to get us a bit of publicicty with the arrival of a new manager, the fans liked it so the club jumped on it, same as the revival of the ?Its a grand old team? song which died a little bit in the 80?s and early 90?s.
It's a waste of time incorporating that into your views/posts about thye recent EGM change.
It was a phrase used over 5 YEARS AGO, to get us a bit of publicicty with the arrival of a new manager, the fans liked it so the club jumped on it, same as the revival of the ?Its a grand old team? song which died a little bit in the 80?s and early 90?s.
It's a waste of time incorporating that into your views/posts about thye recent EGM change.
Mike Oates: ?I?d wish so called intelligent fans would grow up and stop hanging on to this "People?s Club" tag.? Bit patronising Mike.
I think John Lloyd is more spot on when he notes the phrase was first coined by a new manager over 5 years ago. Contrary to what Neil Adderley writes ? that he found the phrase cringeworthy since it was first muttered (really?? That reads like a retrospective comment to me, Neil?), it struck a genuine chord with the fans, and the club ? shrewdly ? took advantage of it and sold a lot of merchandise on the back of it.
My take on it is the phrase REALLY got up the noses of our red brethren and for that alone it has had great value. Again, as John says, continually raising this phrase ? as is done yet again in this thread about the EGM voting change ? as a means to beat the club with is a tad limp-wristed to me.
Most fans, I believe, are intelligent and adult enough to separate a harmless phrase from the sharp end of the club?s business dealings.
As for Ed Fitzgerald, you really should read ALL posts more attentively before ranting as you do. If you are offended by what you describe as a patronising, insulting, dismissive and haughty tone by those who speak in defence of the club, the same can equally be said about many a poster on here too willing to stick the boot into the club and its officers at every opportunity. Get more balance to your perspective Ed and accept that people do not blindly agree with each and every criticism aimed at the club.
I think John Lloyd is more spot on when he notes the phrase was first coined by a new manager over 5 years ago. Contrary to what Neil Adderley writes ? that he found the phrase cringeworthy since it was first muttered (really?? That reads like a retrospective comment to me, Neil?), it struck a genuine chord with the fans, and the club ? shrewdly ? took advantage of it and sold a lot of merchandise on the back of it.
My take on it is the phrase REALLY got up the noses of our red brethren and for that alone it has had great value. Again, as John says, continually raising this phrase ? as is done yet again in this thread about the EGM voting change ? as a means to beat the club with is a tad limp-wristed to me.
Most fans, I believe, are intelligent and adult enough to separate a harmless phrase from the sharp end of the club?s business dealings.
As for Ed Fitzgerald, you really should read ALL posts more attentively before ranting as you do. If you are offended by what you describe as a patronising, insulting, dismissive and haughty tone by those who speak in defence of the club, the same can equally be said about many a poster on here too willing to stick the boot into the club and its officers at every opportunity. Get more balance to your perspective Ed and accept that people do not blindly agree with each and every criticism aimed at the club.
Ed,
Spot on mate...I love the way the self-appointed business experts on this forum - see it fit to dismiss concerns at the keystone cops routine that goes on in this club - by wheeling out the usual ’name me one other business....zzzzz’
Maybe the great business acumen they possess is clouding their minds...or maybe they’re just ignorant of the fact that football clubs can in no way be compared to a traditional business model.
I found it interesting that Mr Elstone was concerned about us ’airing our dirty laundry in public’ - yet wasn’t it the board who invited the media into the EGM...?
Bit of an oversight there Robert!
Here’s a bit of advice for the board...if you don’t want everton’s dirty laundry aired in public.....simply stop shítting all over the sheets!
Spot on mate...I love the way the self-appointed business experts on this forum - see it fit to dismiss concerns at the keystone cops routine that goes on in this club - by wheeling out the usual ’name me one other business....zzzzz’
Maybe the great business acumen they possess is clouding their minds...or maybe they’re just ignorant of the fact that football clubs can in no way be compared to a traditional business model.
I found it interesting that Mr Elstone was concerned about us ’airing our dirty laundry in public’ - yet wasn’t it the board who invited the media into the EGM...?
Bit of an oversight there Robert!
Here’s a bit of advice for the board...if you don’t want everton’s dirty laundry aired in public.....simply stop shítting all over the sheets!
Art - your reading of my take on ’that phrase’ is by-the-by. I stated my case and am happy to stand by that.
As for it ’striking a chord’ at the time, I’d agree it did for some supporters and it did rub some kopites up the wrong way. Again we agree (jeez this is tough) that the board ’took advantage of it’ and milked it until - as of yesterday - it was finally dry.
Hence the title of the thread.
One last point Art; balance is a two way street and I’m certain that people do not blindly agree with each and every decision this current board make for Everton Football Club.
As for it ’striking a chord’ at the time, I’d agree it did for some supporters and it did rub some kopites up the wrong way. Again we agree (jeez this is tough) that the board ’took advantage of it’ and milked it until - as of yesterday - it was finally dry.
Hence the title of the thread.
One last point Art; balance is a two way street and I’m certain that people do not blindly agree with each and every decision this current board make for Everton Football Club.
Neil said: "One last point Art; balance is a two way street and I?m certain that people do not blindly agree with each and every decision this current board make for Everton Football Club."
Add that to the list of things we can agree on. I can acknowledge that.
Sadly, a good number who take umbrage and condemn the club at every turn and then berate those who do not blindly accept their bleak appraisal of all things Everton seemingly struggle to acknowledge ... shock! horror! ... that people have opinions that differ to their own.
Add that to the list of things we can agree on. I can acknowledge that.
Sadly, a good number who take umbrage and condemn the club at every turn and then berate those who do not blindly accept their bleak appraisal of all things Everton seemingly struggle to acknowledge ... shock! horror! ... that people have opinions that differ to their own.
Fair enough Art.
I think another thing we will agree on is that Evertonians are now firmly split into two camps.
In my view a faction of both of those have become polarised - maybe to such a degree that they may never be reconciled - now we could debate the reasoning behind this until the cows come home but the actions (and the manner) in which the current board of directors have vetoed the minor shareholders will have reprecussions. I guarentee that one of those will not be to bring the two camps or factions any closer together.
I also have no doubt that the current encumbents are well aware of the split in the fanbase and that they took the decision to change the articles with their eyes wide open.
Whichever side of the fence you find yourself on, these are divisive times for Everton Football Club.
I think another thing we will agree on is that Evertonians are now firmly split into two camps.
In my view a faction of both of those have become polarised - maybe to such a degree that they may never be reconciled - now we could debate the reasoning behind this until the cows come home but the actions (and the manner) in which the current board of directors have vetoed the minor shareholders will have reprecussions. I guarentee that one of those will not be to bring the two camps or factions any closer together.
I also have no doubt that the current encumbents are well aware of the split in the fanbase and that they took the decision to change the articles with their eyes wide open.
Whichever side of the fence you find yourself on, these are divisive times for Everton Football Club.
John Lloyd, I wish your characterization of "The People?s Club" tag were true... I really do. But then I recall this image of where our future lies:
It will be plastered all over the new edifice.... Cringeworthy does not even come close.
Art
You need to open your eyes to the constant stream of BK apologists who condone the way he leads/manages/runs the business called Everton FC.
My complaint is that I don’t think it is a well run business and as paying customer (are you?) I have every right to complain about the quality of the product I buy.
As Neil rightly states the reason for the division that exists in the fan base including those who attend every week lies at firmly at the feet at the leadership of the club.
You need to open your eyes to the constant stream of BK apologists who condone the way he leads/manages/runs the business called Everton FC.
My complaint is that I don’t think it is a well run business and as paying customer (are you?) I have every right to complain about the quality of the product I buy.
As Neil rightly states the reason for the division that exists in the fan base including those who attend every week lies at firmly at the feet at the leadership of the club.
Yet another reason why I cringe everytime I see them Kirkby images or even think about moving there Michael!!
No-ones suggesting that we?ve all been taken in by the People?s Club thing, most see through it and enjoy winding up the RS. But to mourn its passing is to suggest it existed in the first place and I?m afraid it didn?t.
The EGM issue is a red herring because of the share structure within EFC, nobody will out-vote the board and sadly an EGM will achieve very little, so why not change the rules to make it more difficult to call one?
As for being paying customers, I think most club chairman regard the armchair variety with their Sky subscriptions as the cash cow. At least we have a man who is a genuine supporter, whatever else we may think of him, he is a blue.
Marcus
Are you seriously suggesting that the paying customer at the gates does not matter in terms of revenue?
Are you seriously suggesting that the paying customer at the gates does not matter in terms of revenue?
Excellent Marcus!
If the paying customer are of so little financial import, then the premis on which Everton FC is being removed to Kirkby is a nonsense.
Ira and George were right all along;
"....Let’s call the whole thing off....."
If the paying customer are of so little financial import, then the premis on which Everton FC is being removed to Kirkby is a nonsense.
Ira and George were right all along;
"....Let’s call the whole thing off....."
No I?m not suggesting that the paying customer doesn?t matter. But the real money is generated from television rights, which rolls into sponsorship, merchandising and so on, I?m sure you?ve heard it all before. Yes the paying customer matters, but nowhere near as much as we?d like to think. As for your point about Kirkby, I don?t think it alters anything, we?re skint and moving is cheaper than renovation, Kirkby is the (ahem) most affordable option, hang the fans, it?s about money.
Ed... nothing wrong with my eye sight, thanks for your concern.
I am neither blind to the "constant stream of BK apologists" you refer to. Equally, nor am I blind (may I paraphrase you...?) to the "constant stream of BK haters". I am discerning enough to make up my own mind and form my own opinion, thank you very much, rather than - as you explicitly state - be taken in by the utterances of ANYONE.
Have I denied you (or anyone, for that matter...) your right to complain as a paying customer? NEVER!!
Have I advocated censorship against any single poster or position on this website? NEVER!!
I am not selective in my reading. I am not fixed in my opinion. I certainly don’t get apoplectic if someone takes a diametrically opposed position to my own.
I may engage with them. I may not. If someone presents a good case or argument on ANY issue, I will acknowledge it if so moved. Similarly, if I consider someone is talking total bull, I wish to retain my right to say so.
It is a balance starkly absent in your earlier post. I don’t take ANYONE’S point of view at face value ... least of all on here.
As for your claim about the division that you believe exists in the fan base and how it came about, that is your opinion. I don’t subscribe to it. There has ALWAYS been a difference of opinion on a whole host of issues between supporters. The internet simply amplifies what has long existed.
I hold that there are many more things that unite Everton supporters as a group than divides them.
Only my opinion, like ... just because it doesn’t accord with you own, am I not allowed to express it...?
I am neither blind to the "constant stream of BK apologists" you refer to. Equally, nor am I blind (may I paraphrase you...?) to the "constant stream of BK haters". I am discerning enough to make up my own mind and form my own opinion, thank you very much, rather than - as you explicitly state - be taken in by the utterances of ANYONE.
Have I denied you (or anyone, for that matter...) your right to complain as a paying customer? NEVER!!
Have I advocated censorship against any single poster or position on this website? NEVER!!
I am not selective in my reading. I am not fixed in my opinion. I certainly don’t get apoplectic if someone takes a diametrically opposed position to my own.
I may engage with them. I may not. If someone presents a good case or argument on ANY issue, I will acknowledge it if so moved. Similarly, if I consider someone is talking total bull, I wish to retain my right to say so.
It is a balance starkly absent in your earlier post. I don’t take ANYONE’S point of view at face value ... least of all on here.
As for your claim about the division that you believe exists in the fan base and how it came about, that is your opinion. I don’t subscribe to it. There has ALWAYS been a difference of opinion on a whole host of issues between supporters. The internet simply amplifies what has long existed.
I hold that there are many more things that unite Everton supporters as a group than divides them.
Only my opinion, like ... just because it doesn’t accord with you own, am I not allowed to express it...?
Art
As a journalist, you are quite naturally adroit with the English Language and engage in the type of semantic gymnastics that Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud of. Evertonians have always disagreed on many aspects of club policy from transfers to the tactical nous of the manager, but you postulate that the perceived divisions that currently exist are imagined and are given credence only by the amplifying force of the net.
As a journalist, you are quite naturally adroit with the English Language and engage in the type of semantic gymnastics that Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud of. Evertonians have always disagreed on many aspects of club policy from transfers to the tactical nous of the manager, but you postulate that the perceived divisions that currently exist are imagined and are given credence only by the amplifying force of the net.
Your statement that there are more things that unite us than divide is of course true (Doh! yes - We all follow Everton) but the debacle of DK and the concomitant cock ups by BK and his team (Wyness, Elstone and Ross) are testing people's loyalty to the hilt.
Those of us on Merseyside know the divisions are real because we interact with real live human beings who make their opinions known volubly and with passion. (You live abroad don?t you?). So the upset does not just reside in the virtual world although perhaps too much dissent has been expressed through this medium and not others.
Perhaps I have just imagined all the upset and argument that has raged over Kirkby and the fact that the project has been called in, and the CEO has walked out, and the manager has not signed his contract, and the club has changed its articles of association to stop any more tricky EGMs being called. Only my opinion Art but the supporters have never been more divided as they are now. I do hold Bill Kenwright responsible as he is our chairman and therefore has the privilege of leading this club.
Ed... a few corrections. First, I am not a journalist. Too bad if my eloquence challenges your (and others...) point of view. That’s something for you (and others...) to come to terms with, not me.
Second, I don’t believe and I haven’t stated as you attribute to me " that the perceived divisions that currently exist are imagined and are given credence only by the amplifying force of the net."
On the contrary, I quite clearly stated: "There has ALWAYS been a difference of opinion on a whole host of issues between supporters." Nothing WHATSOEVER about past or current differences being "imagined". I did add:
"The internet simply amplifies what has long existed". A pretty legitimate observation, IMO. Instead of mates arguing down the pub, in-fighting can now be broadcast 24/7 (there yer go Ed... have a cheap shot at that phrase if yer like...) to a worldwide audience.
Thank you for your acknowledgement that there are indeed more things that unite us than divide.
Do I deny that recent and current events are testing people’s loyalty to the hilt? Not at all.
Do I consider that some - in their extreme hatred of certain officers at the club and their total opposition to certain proposals currently being considered - have no balance to their point of view? Yes - I most certainly do. Do I call for them to be censored or silenced? No - I most certainly do not. Rather the contrary, in fact... I’m a fierce defender of free speech and I find the editorial intervention on TW (for example...) at times extreme, petty and inconsistent.
No doubt, if you truly live on Merseyside (I wonder if you can see the irony of you using "Merseyside" rather than "the city of Liverpool...?), you have more daily interaction with fellow blues than I do. It does not naturally follow, however, that YOUR interpretation of what is happening amongst supporters on the streets is the definitive interpretation of what the majority feel.
Because of the internet and such toys as Skype, I correspond or speak daily to friends and family back home. And - again, thanks for your concern - but my work, my life very much is dependent on interacting with real live human beings. And very fulfilling and satisfying it is too. I have no intention of apologising for the fact that I have a life beyond the environs of L6...
As for your final paragraph, no doubt you believe that. I don’t. That does NOT make me a simplistic, gullible lackey of BK as you wish to suggest.
Second, I don’t believe and I haven’t stated as you attribute to me " that the perceived divisions that currently exist are imagined and are given credence only by the amplifying force of the net."
On the contrary, I quite clearly stated: "There has ALWAYS been a difference of opinion on a whole host of issues between supporters." Nothing WHATSOEVER about past or current differences being "imagined". I did add:
"The internet simply amplifies what has long existed". A pretty legitimate observation, IMO. Instead of mates arguing down the pub, in-fighting can now be broadcast 24/7 (there yer go Ed... have a cheap shot at that phrase if yer like...) to a worldwide audience.
Thank you for your acknowledgement that there are indeed more things that unite us than divide.
Do I deny that recent and current events are testing people’s loyalty to the hilt? Not at all.
Do I consider that some - in their extreme hatred of certain officers at the club and their total opposition to certain proposals currently being considered - have no balance to their point of view? Yes - I most certainly do. Do I call for them to be censored or silenced? No - I most certainly do not. Rather the contrary, in fact... I’m a fierce defender of free speech and I find the editorial intervention on TW (for example...) at times extreme, petty and inconsistent.
No doubt, if you truly live on Merseyside (I wonder if you can see the irony of you using "Merseyside" rather than "the city of Liverpool...?), you have more daily interaction with fellow blues than I do. It does not naturally follow, however, that YOUR interpretation of what is happening amongst supporters on the streets is the definitive interpretation of what the majority feel.
Because of the internet and such toys as Skype, I correspond or speak daily to friends and family back home. And - again, thanks for your concern - but my work, my life very much is dependent on interacting with real live human beings. And very fulfilling and satisfying it is too. I have no intention of apologising for the fact that I have a life beyond the environs of L6...
As for your final paragraph, no doubt you believe that. I don’t. That does NOT make me a simplistic, gullible lackey of BK as you wish to suggest.
Art :
"Too bad if my eloquence challenges your (and others...) point of view. That?s something for you (and others...) to come to terms with, not me."
Bit patronising isn't it?
Still this is what its all about, fanatical people arguing over everything that they have little control over - keep it coming, its beats watching TV
"Too bad if my eloquence challenges your (and others...) point of view. That?s something for you (and others...) to come to terms with, not me."
Bit patronising isn't it?
Still this is what its all about, fanatical people arguing over everything that they have little control over - keep it coming, its beats watching TV
Mike
It beats watching telly ?
I’m off to watch the testcard, it’ll go on for hours, just like like an Art Greet post, but it’ll be infinately more interesting
It beats watching telly ?
I’m off to watch the testcard, it’ll go on for hours, just like like an Art Greet post, but it’ll be infinately more interesting
I think the thread was about the club being deemed the people club John, not really about on-the-pitch activites.
No, Mike Oates... not patronising at all. It was a direct response to the following from Ed Fitzgerald:
"As a journalist, you are quite naturally adroit with the English Language and engage in the type of semantic gymnastics that Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud of."
I believe I am entitled to respond to that, don’t you?
There are apparently some people on here - such as Ed (Dave Wilson is another...) who take exception to well-constructed arguments (both in their content and in the literary sense) which THEY have difficulty in rebutting.
Rather than engage in debate and counter the argument, they use the ad hominem ploy and attack the poster.
I’m not going to hide my light under a bushel, Mike. I don’t flaunt my intelligence, but I’m not going to deny I’m a reasonably smart guy. Immodest? Patronising? Or simply honest?
What are you advocating exactly? That everyone ’dumbs down’ to a lowly common denominator...? That any learning, knowledge, or intelligence - whatever form that may take - be left at the gate of ToffeeWeb Towers before entering...? That we all post in Neanderthal grunts and restrict our posts to petty name calling and lazy labelling...?
Choose that path if you want. I won’t.
"As a journalist, you are quite naturally adroit with the English Language and engage in the type of semantic gymnastics that Sir Humphrey Appleby would be proud of."
I believe I am entitled to respond to that, don’t you?
There are apparently some people on here - such as Ed (Dave Wilson is another...) who take exception to well-constructed arguments (both in their content and in the literary sense) which THEY have difficulty in rebutting.
Rather than engage in debate and counter the argument, they use the ad hominem ploy and attack the poster.
I’m not going to hide my light under a bushel, Mike. I don’t flaunt my intelligence, but I’m not going to deny I’m a reasonably smart guy. Immodest? Patronising? Or simply honest?
What are you advocating exactly? That everyone ’dumbs down’ to a lowly common denominator...? That any learning, knowledge, or intelligence - whatever form that may take - be left at the gate of ToffeeWeb Towers before entering...? That we all post in Neanderthal grunts and restrict our posts to petty name calling and lazy labelling...?
Choose that path if you want. I won’t.
Art,
Suggesting that there are more things that unite us than divide us, as Evertonians, is simply erroneous.
The only thing that unites us is that we live and breathe Everton Football Club.
That?s one thing.
The things that divide us are the multitude of ways we choose to live and breathe Everton Football Club - and these choices are constantly being augmented by divisional politics from within the club.
As eloquent as you claim to be - this simple fact seems to have escaped you.
Suggesting that there are more things that unite us than divide us, as Evertonians, is simply erroneous.
The only thing that unites us is that we live and breathe Everton Football Club.
That?s one thing.
The things that divide us are the multitude of ways we choose to live and breathe Everton Football Club - and these choices are constantly being augmented by divisional politics from within the club.
As eloquent as you claim to be - this simple fact seems to have escaped you.
Ciarán, I stated ? clearly as an OPINION ? that I believe there are more things that unite Evertonians than divide us. You challenge that and state ? as FACT ? that I am wrong. Please... prove the FACT...
This "division" between fans is being greatly overstated, IMO. Are fans across the divide fire-bombing cars and homes...? Are fans going out knee-capping t?other lot...? Are fans being tarred and feathered and hung from lamp posts as a warning and example...? Are fans refusing to associate with t?other side... in the community... in the pub... in the workplace...?Are families refusing to let their children marry into families of t?other lot...?
The virtual world of an Internet forum is not necessarily truly indicative of (presumed) global attitudes in the real world.
This "division" between fans is being greatly overstated, IMO. Are fans across the divide fire-bombing cars and homes...? Are fans going out knee-capping t?other lot...? Are fans being tarred and feathered and hung from lamp posts as a warning and example...? Are fans refusing to associate with t?other side... in the community... in the pub... in the workplace...?Are families refusing to let their children marry into families of t?other lot...?
The virtual world of an Internet forum is not necessarily truly indicative of (presumed) global attitudes in the real world.
I didn?t question whether you considered it as fact or opinion, I simply stated that it was erroneous.... and it is.
The fact that there is a mulitude of differences which divide us as Evertonians versus a single uniting factor ? is evidence enough to prove this.
That is not in dispute, it is simply fact.
Now, the extent of these divisions is something which is quite subjective ? but yet again the evidence is overwhelming to suggest that the divisions are more than significant.
You either agree with that synopsis or you deny the very utterances of your daily polemic.
Whether the divisions are expressed by internet, letter, editorial or carrier pigeon is irrelevant. The fact is, that they are real... and they are extensive.
To deny that fact with the absent caveat of physical violence or fire bombing, is simply ridiculous.
Or maybe I was alseep while they re-wrote the meaning of division.
The fact that there is a mulitude of differences which divide us as Evertonians versus a single uniting factor ? is evidence enough to prove this.
That is not in dispute, it is simply fact.
Now, the extent of these divisions is something which is quite subjective ? but yet again the evidence is overwhelming to suggest that the divisions are more than significant.
You either agree with that synopsis or you deny the very utterances of your daily polemic.
Whether the divisions are expressed by internet, letter, editorial or carrier pigeon is irrelevant. The fact is, that they are real... and they are extensive.
To deny that fact with the absent caveat of physical violence or fire bombing, is simply ridiculous.
Or maybe I was alseep while they re-wrote the meaning of division.
Nope! Nice try Ciarán, but no cigar.
What you - in very broad strokes, without being explicit at all - describe as "a multitude of differences which divide us" can equally be applied in reverse.
IS the intensity of any divisions - real or imagined - such that a state of Civil War exists between the supporters? No. Has the "division" reached the levels of violence I described? No.
Yet whilst you describe my admittedly exaggerated scenario as "ridiculous", you continue to insist that the divisions are "significant", "real" and "extensive".
OK. Enlighten me. Tell me how they are
"significant", "real" and "extensive".
I’m not talking about how one set of supporters loathes the club management and its dealings, against another set of supporters more tolerant of BK and his officers. That’s a completely separate issue, believe it or not...
I’d like to know how you consider the division you believe exists BETWEEN SUPPORTERS is impacting DIRECTLY ON THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER, creating an irreparable schism that will tear apart the very fabric of a united SUPPORT.
What you - in very broad strokes, without being explicit at all - describe as "a multitude of differences which divide us" can equally be applied in reverse.
IS the intensity of any divisions - real or imagined - such that a state of Civil War exists between the supporters? No. Has the "division" reached the levels of violence I described? No.
Yet whilst you describe my admittedly exaggerated scenario as "ridiculous", you continue to insist that the divisions are "significant", "real" and "extensive".
OK. Enlighten me. Tell me how they are
"significant", "real" and "extensive".
I’m not talking about how one set of supporters loathes the club management and its dealings, against another set of supporters more tolerant of BK and his officers. That’s a completely separate issue, believe it or not...
I’d like to know how you consider the division you believe exists BETWEEN SUPPORTERS is impacting DIRECTLY ON THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH EACH OTHER, creating an irreparable schism that will tear apart the very fabric of a united SUPPORT.
Nice try ? No cigar?
I neither want a cigar nor consider my relevant point to be a ’try’.
There is absolutely no need for me to be explicit....only someone unwilling to accept the veracity of one uniting factor being less than many divisive factors, would call for such a qualification.
The same person might also employ some irrational criteria for measuring such levels of division...the outbreak of a civil war, for instance....and even manitaining such a stance after they’ve admitted the there own use of hyperbole to augment their sophistry.
There’s clearly no point in asking you to admit the vitriol of the divisions in the supportership of this club..because obviously you’re willing to go to ridiculous lengths to maintain the integrity of your argument ... the latest evasive technique even involves calling the divisions a seperate issue!
Defeating the argument by declaring the very divisions in question as inadmissable?
If I was a man of cliches, i’d say something about cigars.
I neither want a cigar nor consider my relevant point to be a ’try’.
There is absolutely no need for me to be explicit....only someone unwilling to accept the veracity of one uniting factor being less than many divisive factors, would call for such a qualification.
The same person might also employ some irrational criteria for measuring such levels of division...the outbreak of a civil war, for instance....and even manitaining such a stance after they’ve admitted the there own use of hyperbole to augment their sophistry.
There’s clearly no point in asking you to admit the vitriol of the divisions in the supportership of this club..because obviously you’re willing to go to ridiculous lengths to maintain the integrity of your argument ... the latest evasive technique even involves calling the divisions a seperate issue!
Defeating the argument by declaring the very divisions in question as inadmissable?
If I was a man of cliches, i’d say something about cigars.
If you want to body swerve the question Ciarán, fine.
If you are unable to recognize or accept the distinction I am making, fine.
If you wish to continue to argue that the divisions between supporters are "significant", "real" and "extensive" WITHOUT elaborating on how this is impacting directly on their relationship on each other, fine.
If you wish to accuse me of employing an "irrational criteria for measuring levels of division", fine.
If you wish to deny the perfectly legitimate use of analogy, fine.
Have I DENIED that differences exist between supporters? No.
Have I DENIED there exists a level of vitriol from some supporters - towards both fellow blues and the club and its officers? No.
I am questioning your (and others...) claims that such divisions are "significant".
Ironic that you accuse me of hyperbole and sophistry when that is all you are engaging in.
Answer the question, man: have we reached the stage in our support yet where the schism is so great that it is going to rip asunder with one set of supporters remaining loyal to the founding club, whilst another set breaks away to form "True Blue Evertonians FC", or whatever name they want to fabricate...?
If you are unable to recognize or accept the distinction I am making, fine.
If you wish to continue to argue that the divisions between supporters are "significant", "real" and "extensive" WITHOUT elaborating on how this is impacting directly on their relationship on each other, fine.
If you wish to accuse me of employing an "irrational criteria for measuring levels of division", fine.
If you wish to deny the perfectly legitimate use of analogy, fine.
Have I DENIED that differences exist between supporters? No.
Have I DENIED there exists a level of vitriol from some supporters - towards both fellow blues and the club and its officers? No.
I am questioning your (and others...) claims that such divisions are "significant".
Ironic that you accuse me of hyperbole and sophistry when that is all you are engaging in.
Answer the question, man: have we reached the stage in our support yet where the schism is so great that it is going to rip asunder with one set of supporters remaining loyal to the founding club, whilst another set breaks away to form "True Blue Evertonians FC", or whatever name they want to fabricate...?
You almost agreed with me there...but it was just too much to resist that last semblance of reality - and avoid introducing another somewhat frivilous caveat to you defintion of ’significant division’...
lo and behold...now a ’significant division’ requires complete separation.
As i said, it’s pointless trying to convey the point when you constantly want to change the terms of reference...let alone the meaning of words.
If we agreed on your defintion of ’division’ then you might have a point...unfornatunately i don’t...
lo and behold...now a ’significant division’ requires complete separation.
As i said, it’s pointless trying to convey the point when you constantly want to change the terms of reference...let alone the meaning of words.
If we agreed on your defintion of ’division’ then you might have a point...unfornatunately i don’t...
Art Greeth, the proverbial "dog with a bone", never satisfied until he has sucked the marrow right out of the topic.
When are you going on Holiday Art ?
When are you going on Holiday Art ?
Ciarán, you coined the phrase "significant division". I have invited you to define what you mean by that. You have declined to do so.
How can we reach agreement on ANY definition of "division" when you are not stating what yours is, and further, WHY it is (your words) "significant"?
Steve Lyth... the proverbial "bar stool philosophy" who chips in with what he thinks is a profound, witty remark without contributing anything to a discussion ... but is in fact little more than schoolboy mouth-farting.
Check our respective posting histories Steve... it ain’t me who posts on here the most.
How can we reach agreement on ANY definition of "division" when you are not stating what yours is, and further, WHY it is (your words) "significant"?
Steve Lyth... the proverbial "bar stool philosophy" who chips in with what he thinks is a profound, witty remark without contributing anything to a discussion ... but is in fact little more than schoolboy mouth-farting.
Check our respective posting histories Steve... it ain’t me who posts on here the most.
Art, I thought it was funny and thats all that counts.
I think in terms of contribution you are way ahead of me, certainly over the last three months or so, however, in terms of substance on real issues facing the clubs support, you are well behind my little K9 friend.
" Schoolboy mouth -farting" not a term I am familiar with but obviously one that you are. I will leave you to carry on growling and barking at everyone, with a bit of luck someone will take you for a long walk.
I think in terms of contribution you are way ahead of me, certainly over the last three months or so, however, in terms of substance on real issues facing the clubs support, you are well behind my little K9 friend.
" Schoolboy mouth -farting" not a term I am familiar with but obviously one that you are. I will leave you to carry on growling and barking at everyone, with a bit of luck someone will take you for a long walk.
Oops! Do a trawl through TW for the past three months Steve... I wasn’t around from June through to August. I’ve only returned to posting on here in the last week. And even then, that has been principally this thread and one other.
Don’t do growling, don’t do barking. I make my point and question others. Not concerned by labels others try to give me. Least of all those who try snide and contribute nothing. Bothersome, aren’t I...?
Don’t do growling, don’t do barking. I make my point and question others. Not concerned by labels others try to give me. Least of all those who try snide and contribute nothing. Bothersome, aren’t I...?
Yes you are Art, but you actually made me laugh out loud there, so i value your last contribution. LOL !!
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1 Posted 10/09/2008 at 13:34:53
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I think we should embrace Kirkby, I think the club board has done a fair-enough job since taking over and I am thrilled Mr Wyness has departed ? so why do I feel Mr Elstone's first move is all about making the People's club a little more exclusive?
Shame on you, Everton.