The Mail Bag
Defensive Problems
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4 games in, 7 goals scored... not bad. However, 4 games in, 9 goals conceded... very poor. Without posting a doom and gloom thread, I was just wondering what people's thoughts were on our defence at present.
Now, I appreciate that the defence has been left exposed up until now by the departure of Carsley, the unavoidable starting line-up changes and the delay in finding a suitable replacement for Cars, plus the new players needing time to bed in. However, I have still not been impressed with our defence so far this season.
I think most would agree that our best defence is:
GK - Howard
RB - Neville
CB - Yobo
CB - Jagielka
LB - Lescott
DM - Castillo/Fellaini
(Let me add... that I really like Baines, but I think he still has developing to do, particularly defensively, but he does possess a lot of stamina, pace and an excellent cross. It's just not the right time for him at present.)
That defence looks solid but at the moment there appears to be no cohesion, a distinct lack of understanding, awareness and communication and problems with the basics.
Moyes needs to stick with this unit and really get to work with them on the training ground, he needs to get them communicating better and needs to build up the understanding and confidence that was present last season. Basic errors (i.e. backing off, hoofball, etc) need to be irradicated and lapses of concentration need to be cut-out.
In addition, while Tim Howard is a great keeper, Chris Woods really needs to do some work with him in relation to his presence and ability to deal with high balls, crosses and throws (in Stoke's case) which land in and around his 6 yard box. He is very reluctant to come and claim the ball and lacks that commanding presence that so many great keepers have/had and this can have a knock on effect on the defence, who in-turn lose confidence in their keeper, ultimately leading to more mistakes or rash decisions.
We need to get back to basics and get back to doing what we have done so well, for so long, and that is... defending solidly as a unit, particularly at Goodison.
John McKie, Posted 15/09/2008 at 13:22:06
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Note to Tim Howard....CATCH THE BALL!!!
I disagree on two counts. Firstly, Yobo did not have a stinker and was our best defender. If it wasn’t for his reading of the game and utilising his pace we’d have been in trouble a lot more than we were.
Secondly, Tim Howard has in general been fairly commanding as Everton’s first choice goalkeeper. I think most keepers in the Premier League this season will be troubled by Stoke’s physical approach, especially when trying to make the most of Delap’s long throw. (I hate to see how Paul Robinson will deal with it!)
I think the real problem lies in the defence, which is lacking the cohesion it had last season. Ideally, Moyes would like to play with Baines left back but some of our most resilient performances last season came with Yobo, Jagielka and Lescott all in the back line.
Until the two new defensive midfielders settle, Moyes has to stick with something tried and tested, and unfortunately Leighton Baines doesn’t fit into this.
Secondly, Tim Howard has in general been fairly commanding as Everton’s first choice goalkeeper. I think most keepers in the Premier League this season will be troubled by Stoke’s physical approach, especially when trying to make the most of Delap’s long throw. (I hate to see how Paul Robinson will deal with it!)
I think the real problem lies in the defence, which is lacking the cohesion it had last season. Ideally, Moyes would like to play with Baines left back but some of our most resilient performances last season came with Yobo, Jagielka and Lescott all in the back line.
Until the two new defensive midfielders settle, Moyes has to stick with something tried and tested, and unfortunately Leighton Baines doesn’t fit into this.
If you look at the ’goal that never was’ it was initially a questionable free-kick to Everton. However with the birth of new technology and replays on the Sky+ box, it was blatantly clear that Yobo had his legs taken as Fuller throws out a leg in front of Yobo just before he goes down and therefore puts Yobo off balance. I thought it was dubious until i watched it on the box over and over again. 100% free-kick.
Also I have been worried by the defensive play by Everton, but where Howard was at fault for pretty much both goals, the second goal they scored should have been chalked off because the player behind Jags pushed him whilst in mid air which is a foul.
Also I have been worried by the defensive play by Everton, but where Howard was at fault for pretty much both goals, the second goal they scored should have been chalked off because the player behind Jags pushed him whilst in mid air which is a foul.
Usual problem. Any lack of confidence affects the nerves and then we concede in a run of games.
Conversely once they get settled behind this new midfield we will become again a strong defensive unit - i just hope its before Thursday.
Thought Howard improved towards the latter stages yesterday. Made more calls and came out a bit more.
(In the non-gay sense you understand)
Conversely once they get settled behind this new midfield we will become again a strong defensive unit - i just hope its before Thursday.
Thought Howard improved towards the latter stages yesterday. Made more calls and came out a bit more.
(In the non-gay sense you understand)
I can't believe the attacks on Yobo. His pace got us out of trouble on more than once occasion yesterday.
I thought he was our best defender.
Can say I?m looking forward to Thursday though. We look well short. If we come back with a small deficit, I think we?ll have done well.
I thought he was our best defender.
Can say I?m looking forward to Thursday though. We look well short. If we come back with a small deficit, I think we?ll have done well.
I reckon Baines was very unlucky not to get his place against Stoke, he was the best player for us versus Pompey and delivered lots of good crosses. I would like to see him play left side in front of Lescott as he is our best wide player and could be a revelation if given a free role. I understand that Stoke need to be combatted rather than played against but in the second half I would have like to see one of the new guys replaced by Baines as he is fast and for me has better ball control.
Chris Woods spent most of yesterday?s game on his mobile. He talked constantly with his hand covering his mouth but was looking very agitated. At one point i suspected he had a tele-link to Howard but then when I saw the player?s pathetic attempts to deal with the throw-ins, I realised that he was probably dealing with a domestic crisis.
Any other ideas forthcoming?
Any other ideas forthcoming?
Hey Trevor. The first leg?s at home mate! Even worse.........
I’ve got to disagree with Danny Broderick too. I thought Yobo was our best defender yesterday. I also thought that Neville had a better game, but the form of both Lescott and Jagielka has been a major worry. Neither have looked like the dominant players we saw last season. I think that Moyes comments Re: needing more players to push the senior lads, were aimed at these guys (particularly Lescott). There has been glimpses of the class Lescott posesses, but uncharacteristic laspses of concentration undermine them at the momment i’m afraid.
Re. Baines, I think it has been posted on another thread, but it seems he was left out for reasons other than form ie size! Mr Moyes put out his tallest possible team yesterday for very good reasons, and it proved to be a good decision. Horses for courses.
Our success last season was based on being hard to beat and solid at the back.
But our problems this year stem from the fact that we have had a makeshift midfield offering no protection to the defense.
Our strongest defense is and always will be.
Neville, Yobo, Jagielka, Lescott
Hopefully with Castillo and Fellaini offering some steel it will give the team a bit of a backbone. This will alllow the likes of Arteta, Cahill and Osman to do their thing.
But our problems this year stem from the fact that we have had a makeshift midfield offering no protection to the defense.
Our strongest defense is and always will be.
Neville, Yobo, Jagielka, Lescott
Hopefully with Castillo and Fellaini offering some steel it will give the team a bit of a backbone. This will alllow the likes of Arteta, Cahill and Osman to do their thing.
Danny Broderick.
Can’t believe you were at the same game as me mate.
Yobo was by far the best defender we had. He was shouting encouragement and organising the defence throughout.
Couple of slip ups - but who didn’t.
Sorry pal your letter was the stinker.
Can’t believe you were at the same game as me mate.
Yobo was by far the best defender we had. He was shouting encouragement and organising the defence throughout.
Couple of slip ups - but who didn’t.
Sorry pal your letter was the stinker.
Someone mentioned just putting your foot through the ball and clearing the lines, which I think was the very problem yesterday, as the game went on the back four became increasingly wary of clearing the ball for throw-ins, I think that hesitancy was the cause of the nervousness at the back.
On a positive note, I don?t think many will find it easy playing there this year and I think we fought for a very good 3 points. Even Villa who are normally fairly sound defensively conceded 3, it will be very interested to see how the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool & Man Utd defenses deal with it.
On a positive note, I don?t think many will find it easy playing there this year and I think we fought for a very good 3 points. Even Villa who are normally fairly sound defensively conceded 3, it will be very interested to see how the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool & Man Utd defenses deal with it.
No question - Yobo had a howler yesterday. Was turned several times and looked tired - African Nations Cup possibly catching up?
It?s the 1st time our best back 4 have played together this season so we should see better displays as the weeks go by. I also thought Yobo did well, it was Phil Jagielka who worried me more, I still think he ducks under their first goal. If we?re still playing like that in 4 to 5 games it?s definitely time to worry. By the way... Did you see the size of the thighs on Castillo? I thought we?d signed Ecuador?s equivalent of Chris Hoy, and Fellaini needs a trip to a scouse barber sharpish.
I?m going to add to the cries against poor old Danny, I thought Yobo was our best defender yesterday. I think Moyes is a little unsure about his strongest defensive line up and this must transmit to the players. I accept what Matt Kaskell said about horses for courses, but I think Baines deserves a run whatever, maybe he was resting him for Thursday (squad rotation and all that). Either way we?ve got to stop bleeding goals, just hope the presence of Castillo will settle things down.
Tim Howard is one of the best claimers of the ball in the Premier League. It is not often a foreign goalkeeper has the bottle to come and catch a ball.
Yes he was largely at fault for the Stoke goals but mainly because he didn't tell Fellaini to get the fuck out of his way. Both goals Fellaini stood in front of him.
Yes he was largely at fault for the Stoke goals but mainly because he didn't tell Fellaini to get the fuck out of his way. Both goals Fellaini stood in front of him.
TREVOR LYNES, what is your ifxation with Baines??? IMO he was one of the worst players on the pitch against Pompey - he was playing left back and got run ragged all game by Johnson!! HE wasnt in the match.
JOHN MCKIE, you will find that Baines is one of the slowest players in the Premier League.
I'm not anti-Baines by any stretch but for me he has had one decent game in a blue shirt - Man Utd at Home last year. Valente (Brilliant pro and always top class defensively and this thread is about our defensive frailties) in front of Baines for me, no doubt... This season at least, let him develop and learn, and hopefully he will fulfill the POTENTIAL he has. He isn't ready yet.
Fellaini and Castillo had been with us for a couple of days and were thrown into one of the stangest top flight football situations they will ever encounter. Stoke have made their pitch narrower - three guesses why? How do they attack? I have no desire whatsoever to keep an eye on Stoke this season, but let?s just see how their next few visitors deal with them while they think they can survive.
And we took 3 points away with us. This is not complacency. This is relief - but based on the the belief that we can, and will, move up from here. Let Segundo Castillo get over his jet lag, have a chat with Mikel, and then start to play. I hope we?ll be impressed. And we will get back to what we have become accustomed to over the last five years - hating giving any goal away.
And we took 3 points away with us. This is not complacency. This is relief - but based on the the belief that we can, and will, move up from here. Let Segundo Castillo get over his jet lag, have a chat with Mikel, and then start to play. I hope we?ll be impressed. And we will get back to what we have become accustomed to over the last five years - hating giving any goal away.
Without doubt we saw our strongest defensive line-up on sunday, and the encouraging thing is that were not yet at our strongest attacking line up and still scored three.
I think the defence will only improve when a proper understanding with the DM is made, whoever that maybe. For my money, on Sunday's showing, Castillo?s experience shone through and he looks like an accomplished replacement for Carsely.
I see Fellaini as playing a slightly more advanced role and this would suit a 4-5-1 with Pienaar, Cahill and Arteta, I really think that would be a midfield to trouble some of the best in the Premier League.
This would also see a bench that might ask some questions of our opposition with the likes of Osman, Anichebe and Vaughan available to change the dynamics if need be.
I don't want to sound like I see the world through rose coloured glasses (blue ones maybe) but things do look a lot brighter than the dark dark days of the early season. Have they improved fast enough for Thursday? I don't know, but at least I'm now looking forward to it.
I think the defence will only improve when a proper understanding with the DM is made, whoever that maybe. For my money, on Sunday's showing, Castillo?s experience shone through and he looks like an accomplished replacement for Carsely.
I see Fellaini as playing a slightly more advanced role and this would suit a 4-5-1 with Pienaar, Cahill and Arteta, I really think that would be a midfield to trouble some of the best in the Premier League.
This would also see a bench that might ask some questions of our opposition with the likes of Osman, Anichebe and Vaughan available to change the dynamics if need be.
I don't want to sound like I see the world through rose coloured glasses (blue ones maybe) but things do look a lot brighter than the dark dark days of the early season. Have they improved fast enough for Thursday? I don't know, but at least I'm now looking forward to it.
Oh well boys, you win some, you lose some. I’ve chatted with a few of my mates who agree with me, yet it seems quite a few of you disagree with me. Game of opinions eh?
I just watched the goals again from yesterday. What the hell was Howard doing with Stoke?s first goal? A throw-in from bloody miles away, touched no-one on the way through and he flaps like a complete amateur at it. Unbelievable. I could have given him a run for his money on the Tourettes front when that goal went in.
He needs to sharpen up cos the whole defence were affected by his inability to catch the ball. I just hope Reina gets caught out against them next week.
He needs to sharpen up cos the whole defence were affected by his inability to catch the ball. I just hope Reina gets caught out against them next week.
To be honest, in the game on Saturday, the way I see it, we just had major problems with those throw-ins. With corners, free kicks, we seemed pretty good because we have a lot of aerial presence there, and I can only remember two times where Stoke managed to breach our defence by passing through our defense, and I admit, the Fuller goal should have stood.
I think Yobo did play very well, and Jagielka wasn't too bad. Lescott played much better left back and Phil Neville played ok too.
I think normally we are a very good defensive team, it just needs for them to be a bit better at set piece situations (especially with Howard!) and for Fellaini and Castillo to integrate better so we have more defensive cover from midfield to help out our defense, but other than that we?re fine! I mean we were certainally better defensively against Stoke than our home games so far this season against Portsmouth and Blackburn, definitely!!
I think Yobo did play very well, and Jagielka wasn't too bad. Lescott played much better left back and Phil Neville played ok too.
I think normally we are a very good defensive team, it just needs for them to be a bit better at set piece situations (especially with Howard!) and for Fellaini and Castillo to integrate better so we have more defensive cover from midfield to help out our defense, but other than that we?re fine! I mean we were certainally better defensively against Stoke than our home games so far this season against Portsmouth and Blackburn, definitely!!
Yobo was excellent yesterday.
Yobo was certainly are best defender against Stoke. To those who thought he played badly, I’m not sure what game you watching. Lescott is currently playing poorly, as many have said, he tends to lose concentration lately and his reading of the game has been terrible. But I am sure his form will improve. I think the piece of the puzzle that is missing is Carsley. His presence brought calm and stability to the back four, and although a mediocre passer and a lack of speed and stamina, he could break up attacks consistently and could physically boss around other players. I hope Felliani can take over his role, but add the qualities that Carsley did not possess, as well as beat back the opposition long balls with his height.
We’re shit at the back currently which is bad news considering we have a 2 legged UEFA cup tie coming up. Hopefully we can score a few cos I reckon we’re gonna need to against Liege.
Am I stating the obvious a little? Thought so...
Am I stating the obvious a little? Thought so...
I cant believe this thread...there is a Marsh on it talking sense :)
I wouldn’t be surprised if we lost Baines during the January window. But I would be disappointed. He’s at the stage of his career where he needs to be playing regularly, and he’s a true talent.
Watch this space
Watch this space
We should give time for Castillo to settle in. Fucking tree trunks thighs there, no wonder he?s dragging his legs when he runs. Fellaini for all his height doesn?t win much headers though. Needs to build more bulk / upper body strength. For a 20-year-old it?s normal he?s lanky. Cahill was a bloody dynamo all over the park. Anichebe had a good game as target man on the right wing. Appears more mobile than last season. COYB
Alan Doyle - African Nations Cup was last December so I hope Yobo, Yak, Pienaar and Anichebe are well recovered from it by now.
To me it seems obvious the back 5 (Howard included) all need to get their act togther immediately! Neville, to my surprise, has been the least error prone and the Jag, Joey and Jolly need to snap out of it. I reckon Castillo in the ?Claude Cars? role will be a big help.
We can keep a clean sheet on Thursday, so lets get right behind the lads and help make Goodison the Fortress it needs to be! Standard Liege have tasted Anfield?s kopshite infestation so it?d be good for them to experience the real Pride of Merseyside as we make the first leg count in preparation for the tough away game in two weeks... COYFBB!
James Cadwaladr,
Baines slow?
baines worst player on the pitch against pompey?
valente brilliant?
no offence mate but that’s absolute cráp.
baines is (by far) the best wing back at the club...and probably the only player who has merited a starting place since the start of ther season...
Jags is a liability...ducking under the ball for the first goal, and putting the second in...nevermind looking like an amateur and getting stroked by king at every turn!
get jags onto the bench and let joey and lescott have a consistent run...the same with baines!
Baines slow?
baines worst player on the pitch against pompey?
valente brilliant?
no offence mate but that’s absolute cráp.
baines is (by far) the best wing back at the club...and probably the only player who has merited a starting place since the start of ther season...
Jags is a liability...ducking under the ball for the first goal, and putting the second in...nevermind looking like an amateur and getting stroked by king at every turn!
get jags onto the bench and let joey and lescott have a consistent run...the same with baines!
Got to say that Yobo got us out of trouble more than once on Sunday, yes he did at times look shakey on the ball but so did everyone else. Harsh to say he was fortunate to get a free kick when looking at the replays he clearly got his legs taken out.
What worried me was the equaliser. Why was Jags standing right in front of Howard obstructing his view for the goal?
What worried me was the equaliser. Why was Jags standing right in front of Howard obstructing his view for the goal?
The disallowed goal was a foul Fuller tripped Yobo. Otherwise one cross shot from Fuller in the 1st half was the only time we where breached apart from those effin long throws which Stoke have worked on to the point they’ve changed the pitch to suit .My concern was the amount of hoofs up the pitch a la big duncs days, the big four will play counter attacking football at Stoke and batter them, as we should have done after going 2-0 up ,but as usual we thought we had the game won and sat back. keep the ball on the ground and play FOOTBALL
Want to know why we are conceding more goals this season? Two words for you..
Lee Carsley.
Lee Carsley.
Tim Howard at fault for both goals.
First, a powder puff punch down into his own area.
Second, he should have made a decision to either stay on his line ready for any flick ons or crashed through the back of Jags/Fuller and caught or punched away.
He was caught in no mans land.
However, having seen numerous interviews with Tim, he is a determined man with a winning mentality.
I am sure this game will be the kick he needs to get back to clean sheets.
He will study the game all week.
Also a defence needs to have confidence that their goalkeeper is at least in charge of his 6 yard box, let alone the penalty area.
Still a great goalie though, but still learning.
Yobo defo had his legs taken from under him and Wiley was ideally positioned to see it, so at least he got that right !
Baptism of fire for the new boys, who I believe stood up really well and could have easily gone missing.
But what a way to be introduced to playing for Everton.
I bet they are still buzzing now.
Our away fans, the result, Stokes play, Cahill back, goal celebrations.
Welcome to Everton and the Premiership.
One last point - why was Jags at the front post for the second goal anyway ?
They changed it for the next long throw and Lescott took the position, as he should, being the taller.
Jags then stayed around the 6 yard line to sweep up.
Outstanding 3 points. Well done Blue Boys.
First, a powder puff punch down into his own area.
Second, he should have made a decision to either stay on his line ready for any flick ons or crashed through the back of Jags/Fuller and caught or punched away.
He was caught in no mans land.
However, having seen numerous interviews with Tim, he is a determined man with a winning mentality.
I am sure this game will be the kick he needs to get back to clean sheets.
He will study the game all week.
Also a defence needs to have confidence that their goalkeeper is at least in charge of his 6 yard box, let alone the penalty area.
Still a great goalie though, but still learning.
Yobo defo had his legs taken from under him and Wiley was ideally positioned to see it, so at least he got that right !
Baptism of fire for the new boys, who I believe stood up really well and could have easily gone missing.
But what a way to be introduced to playing for Everton.
I bet they are still buzzing now.
Our away fans, the result, Stokes play, Cahill back, goal celebrations.
Welcome to Everton and the Premiership.
One last point - why was Jags at the front post for the second goal anyway ?
They changed it for the next long throw and Lescott took the position, as he should, being the taller.
Jags then stayed around the 6 yard line to sweep up.
Outstanding 3 points. Well done Blue Boys.
Ciaran - yes Baines slow - like I say, one of the slowest in the Premier League.
Valente brilliant? No and I didn't say that.
Valente Brilliant pro, yes. I didn't mention Valente as a wing back either, he's a full back but (IMO!!!) better defensively than Baines and this thread is about the clubs defensive frailties.
Valente brilliant? No and I didn't say that.
Valente Brilliant pro, yes. I didn't mention Valente as a wing back either, he's a full back but (IMO!!!) better defensively than Baines and this thread is about the clubs defensive frailties.
I?m with Ciaron & a few others on this one. Jags is fantastic at coming in & doing a steady job but Lescott & Joleon will be a fantastic partnership for us for years if we let them get on with it. Also I think we should persist in playing Baines at left back, let his sharpness & confidence come back after missing the best part of a season of football. Now we have Castillo in front of back 4 with Rodwell also looking a future star in that role then the defence will look better all round.
I?m not a fan of Jags, sure he has a place in our squad but not as a first choice. His rashness in the tackle & piss poor awful ability with the ball is championship at best.
I?m not a fan of Jags, sure he has a place in our squad but not as a first choice. His rashness in the tackle & piss poor awful ability with the ball is championship at best.
Fellaini will not be doing the Carsley role!! This is Castillo’s job now, and anyone who has watched Fellaini at Standard and for Belgium will know that he carries the ball much further up the pitch, has a greater passing range and has been prepared for a number of years to fill a box-to-box role rather than a simple DM. Yes he is spiky and has the right attributes to break up play, and will do so in the middle of the park, but not so he can knock it sideways. Castillo will do this, but Fellaini is going to be a different midfielder altogether.
So if we think a replacement for Carsley is the biggest reason for our defensive downturn then we should all be watching Second Castle closely.
So if we think a replacement for Carsley is the biggest reason for our defensive downturn then we should all be watching Second Castle closely.
Valente was a defensive liability. The best thing about him was his advance play... to suggest anything else is an opinion low on merit.
There are no real changes in our defence who was rock-solid last season.
Give it some time and take a chill pill. Defense WILL come good again. It?s probably close to being the least of my worries concerning Everton 2008.
Give it some time and take a chill pill. Defense WILL come good again. It?s probably close to being the least of my worries concerning Everton 2008.
Ian Turgoose
You?ve hit the nail on the head mate, the people who underestimated Carsley's value are either stupid or don't understand the game, I?m afraid a couple of our players are now having their limitations exposed.
I hope to fuck Castillo is up to the job
You?ve hit the nail on the head mate, the people who underestimated Carsley's value are either stupid or don't understand the game, I?m afraid a couple of our players are now having their limitations exposed.
I hope to fuck Castillo is up to the job
Ciaron and John you are spot on.
Jags should be on the bench-he’s awful on the ball, rash in diving in on challenges (see Blackburn’s first goal), and poor in the air.
Lescott is not playing well, but we’re missing Carsley so much at present, and God I never thought I’d say that.
I blame Moyes for the 2 home defeats-Jags in midfield was a nightmare, creating so many uncertainties-but no looking back now, let’s get behind the boys for Thursday and Sunday.
There was a spell in the first half on Sunday when we were passing it around that we started to look quite good, particularly Castillo and Fellaini-but then they faded with the pace of the game in the 2nd half-God bless Cahill though
Keep the faith
Jags should be on the bench-he’s awful on the ball, rash in diving in on challenges (see Blackburn’s first goal), and poor in the air.
Lescott is not playing well, but we’re missing Carsley so much at present, and God I never thought I’d say that.
I blame Moyes for the 2 home defeats-Jags in midfield was a nightmare, creating so many uncertainties-but no looking back now, let’s get behind the boys for Thursday and Sunday.
There was a spell in the first half on Sunday when we were passing it around that we started to look quite good, particularly Castillo and Fellaini-but then they faded with the pace of the game in the 2nd half-God bless Cahill though
Keep the faith
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On a positive note, I thought the rest of the defence was solid. Jags was back to his usual self, Lescott looked better at left back, and Phil Neville had a steady game.
Hopefully now the squad is a bit more settled and we have most players back and fit, we can iron out the defensive mistakes we have been making...