The Mail Bag
Football forums and freedom of speech
Comments (11)
I noticed this opinion piece in today's Guardian newspaper by the regular columnist George Monbiot. Monbiot is normally interested in social justice / green issues / politics / economic issues.
This piece is having a pop at class divisions and the law, but what interests me is the story within the story - how Sheffield Wednesday utilised UK libel laws to try to silence fans who were critical of the club often in a sarcastic, jokey and offhand manner. I.e. In not dissimilar ways to what many of us have done frequently on here.
I thought I'd flag up the piece and try and get some comment on how we think it would affect ToffeeWeb and some of the topics discussed if Everton decided to have a pop at the people...
Andy Morden, Posted 17/09/2008 at 20:23:34
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Libel .... It?s a legal minefield and the boundary between what you can and cannot say is not clear at all.
EG
If I was to write "I have conclusive proof that Bill Kenwight pays referees to favour Everton" and I was absolutely sure of the facts and in possession of documents that proved my assertion beyond reasonable doubt... he could still have me up in court for libel.
Now, he might not win but he could effectively gag me if I didn?t have the money to defend my assertions in a court of law.
On the other hand I could write "Bill Kenwright must be paying referees, if you consider all of the decisions which go in our favour"
I?ve suggested that he is being dishonest but this statement could be read in various ways EG as an expression of incredulity, as a tongue in cheek observation, as a statement of fact etc...
It would depend upon the context of the statement; where it was published; who the piece was aimed at
Again, he could take me (and Toffeeweb!) to court but it would depend upon a judge... who would in all likelihood chuck it out... but you never know.
In practice most libelous statements on the internet are rarely challenged.
It is worrying though... and I?ve know of a couple of examples when a contributor to a message board has been hauled before the beak.
EG
If I was to write "I have conclusive proof that Bill Kenwight pays referees to favour Everton" and I was absolutely sure of the facts and in possession of documents that proved my assertion beyond reasonable doubt... he could still have me up in court for libel.
Now, he might not win but he could effectively gag me if I didn?t have the money to defend my assertions in a court of law.
On the other hand I could write "Bill Kenwright must be paying referees, if you consider all of the decisions which go in our favour"
I?ve suggested that he is being dishonest but this statement could be read in various ways EG as an expression of incredulity, as a tongue in cheek observation, as a statement of fact etc...
It would depend upon the context of the statement; where it was published; who the piece was aimed at
Again, he could take me (and Toffeeweb!) to court but it would depend upon a judge... who would in all likelihood chuck it out... but you never know.
In practice most libelous statements on the internet are rarely challenged.
It is worrying though... and I?ve know of a couple of examples when a contributor to a message board has been hauled before the beak.
It's "sledgehammer to crack a nut" mentality.
God knows why Sheff Wed went down that track.
Maybe, because it?s so long since they were a big club, you get some clowns in charge and they forget that clubs have supporters who can verbally trash their club but will support it 'til they die.
The litigious environments we all inhabit create the space for this sort of totally inappropriate behaviour to continue.
Suppress comment, in all areas. Dare to say the financial people got it wrong?
Dare to say the politicians got it wrong with Iraq?
If these people had their way, you wouldn?t even be able to comment on the weather, for fear of litigation.
God knows why Sheff Wed went down that track.
Maybe, because it?s so long since they were a big club, you get some clowns in charge and they forget that clubs have supporters who can verbally trash their club but will support it 'til they die.
The litigious environments we all inhabit create the space for this sort of totally inappropriate behaviour to continue.
Suppress comment, in all areas. Dare to say the financial people got it wrong?
Dare to say the politicians got it wrong with Iraq?
If these people had their way, you wouldn?t even be able to comment on the weather, for fear of litigation.
Interesting article, it highlights two real issues for me.
1) Sheffield Wednesday are a seriously shit ?club?. That is a F-A-C-T and they can have my email address if they want, it?s kissmyarse@upyours.com
2) Owlstalk.com is a seriously unfortunate name for a footy forum. Sounds to me more like a place where a bunch of perverts gather together to discuss the way in which they?ve molested our nocturnal feathered friends... or maybe it?s just me?!
1) Sheffield Wednesday are a seriously shit ?club?. That is a F-A-C-T and they can have my email address if they want, it?s kissmyarse@upyours.com
2) Owlstalk.com is a seriously unfortunate name for a footy forum. Sounds to me more like a place where a bunch of perverts gather together to discuss the way in which they?ve molested our nocturnal feathered friends... or maybe it?s just me?!
"I am waiting with bated breath to hear who the Chuckle Brothers have signed after their trip to watch players abroad........." This line I?m sure I?ve heard on here this summer...
Ray B,
No I don’t think it is you, I think that kind of thing goes on as well on that particular websie, it is just that Sheffield Weds FC only took umbrage about the sarcastic comments about the club. Whoops, I wonder if Owlstalk.com will now try and sue us for libellous comments????
No I don’t think it is you, I think that kind of thing goes on as well on that particular websie, it is just that Sheffield Weds FC only took umbrage about the sarcastic comments about the club. Whoops, I wonder if Owlstalk.com will now try and sue us for libellous comments????
Ernesto Bertarelli will be at Goodison tonight to watch the match with Bill Kenwright.
I heard this on another Everton website.
If this is not true, and is therefore libelious, does taking a responsible part in this statement and repeating it make me just as liable?
Unless of course it’s true!
I heard this on another Everton website.
If this is not true, and is therefore libelious, does taking a responsible part in this statement and repeating it make me just as liable?
Unless of course it’s true!
"kissmyarse@upyours.com"
Genius!
Nice one Ray, funniest thing I’ve read on hear in a long time.
Genius!
Nice one Ray, funniest thing I’ve read on hear in a long time.
The Club have already used this tactic on a number of occasions.... against KEIOC and fanzine When Skies Are Grey.... I believe, but don’t quote me on it, because I wouldn’t want my own Team to sue me for libel !!!!!!
Talk about how to friends and influence people!
Of course, tonight’s match brings back the most unfortunate incident 12 months ago when thousands of tickets mysteriously got ’lost in the post’ prior to our match against Metallist Kharkiv. The club blamed the Post Office as I recall. Very libelous if not true I would suggest. Out of interest, did anybody eventually get their ticket for this game turn up days/weeks/months later? If nearly 5,000 tickets all got lost you seriously have to wonder if none of them ever turned up where they went... assuming of course they ever went out... Pure conjecture, of course!!! :)
Talk about how to friends and influence people!
Of course, tonight’s match brings back the most unfortunate incident 12 months ago when thousands of tickets mysteriously got ’lost in the post’ prior to our match against Metallist Kharkiv. The club blamed the Post Office as I recall. Very libelous if not true I would suggest. Out of interest, did anybody eventually get their ticket for this game turn up days/weeks/months later? If nearly 5,000 tickets all got lost you seriously have to wonder if none of them ever turned up where they went... assuming of course they ever went out... Pure conjecture, of course!!! :)
I remember a line on ?Round the Horne? - "A legal note here. Common abuse doesn?t constitute libel".
That was in the 60s and it might not hold today. But it must be better just to call someone a tosser rather than try to construct a case against him for which you haven?t got the evidence in black and white.
That was in the 60s and it might not hold today. But it must be better just to call someone a tosser rather than try to construct a case against him for which you haven?t got the evidence in black and white.
I was wondering why Tony Marsh had been a bit quiet lately.
© ToffeeWeb
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 18/09/2008 at 14:51:18
Report abuse
but with some of the statements emanating from GP it should be the club sued for libel not the fans.