To put it mildly, Leighton Baines has had an uncertain start to his 'second' spell at Everton. Rejected as a youngster for being too small, he is now in danger of suffering exactly the same fate after his £6M return last season.

Moyesey may dress it up with the use of phrases like "We needed the physical presence of Lescott," but there is every indication that he doesn`t fancy Baines at all! The player`s withdrawal after just 45 minutes yesterday must have been a sickener for the little fellow who most of us think is as constructive a full-back as any Everton posess.

I fully expect Valente to get the nod for Wednesday`s game at Blackburn and that will be just another indication that the manager has put "our Leighton" in his Krøldrup League of Transfer Cock-ups and that a January move-on is likely. Am I the only one to think he`s being harsh on a player who is no smaller now than when he signed him?

It?s the second time we?ve lost Alan Stubbs only to ship a ton of goals the following season. Unfortunately this time we have no option to get him back.

I think the wise old minds of Stubbs and Carsley are missed sorely.

Being honest I don’t think Baines was ever that good in the first place. He made his name scoring a couple of cracking goals and because he was scouse we warmed to him when the interest in signing him came out.

Is he really any better than Gary Naysmith, quicker perhaps but certainly not the player we thought we were getting.

Going to have to disagree with you there. I honestly think Baines is a decent footballer, its a confidence thing as well as match fitness. I mean how many games has he actually played since joining?

Lescott has started to believe his own press and thinking hes better than he actually is. Confidence turned in to an arrogant swagger.

Baines will start against Blackburn

The problem Moyes has got is that Lescott is potentially a 10-goal -a-season man and Baines isn't. At the moment Moyes can't leave Jags out as he?s the only non-error defender we?ve got and he spends all his time cleaning up Yobo?s and Lescott?s mistakes and he?s the only one talking!!! Howard take note. Therefore Lescott can't get into the Centre Half spot (Yobo has got the pace required to deal with the opposing quickies).

If Arteta, Pienaar, plus whoever is 2nd forward (Saha, Vaughan, Anichebe) is capable of getting 10-15 goals a season then there?s a chance that Baines might get re-instated, but only IF Lescott, Yobo and Howard can get their act together and it means Jags can be rested or maybe tried at Right back where he got his England B cap 2-3 years ago.

But at the moment Baines won't get in, and I?ll think he?ll go in January, and Moyes will sign another CH.

I?m wondering if it?s the players that are coming back to help out that are causing a problem, what?s someone of Leon Osman?s height doing on the front post for a corner?

I too wonder whether Baines will ever really cut it, though in yesterday's game I think we just needed someone who can go forward with a bit more purpose as opposed to Baines having done something wrong, in fact when Hull were on the counter after some action around the Hull box, Baines did a brilliant deliberate/non-deliberate (honest) body-check on the Hull player bombing forward and got away without making it look deliberate, some quick thinking if he meant it.

Fellaini didn?t do much wrong for the first goal, a little bit more nouse might have seen him angle his defensive run further towards the corner flag so as to actually get somewhere near the ball, Turner didn?t have that much room though and it was a great header. For the second Hull goal, if Leon Osman didn?t nudge Neville as they jumped for that corner, Neville would have been heading it back out toward the flank it came from or flicking it to the other side over everyone's heads.

I couldn?t help but feel that this was one of them games that would have been 0-0 going into the last 20 minutes last season and would have ended up being 0-1 to a late Everton goal or something, we?re proving that we can score goals though, evern when Rodwell & baxter were making appearences we?ve got 2 goals in every game apart from v Portsmouth, and 3 against Stoke. Anyone who saw Fallaini?s drag back & shot on the edge of the box knows that we?ve got a little more attacking prowess, and Castillo showed us all that he can keep a shot down, even if it?s a stinger parried into the path of a forward it?s gotta be better than the shots Carsley put in, I was a little worried after I saw the Hull guy on the left make light work of shaking off Castillo & Neville to get to the touchline early on in the game but I think the more the team play together the more they?ll learn where each other are and the defence will shore itself up.

Daniel...

Lescott wasn?t "blatantly earmarked as our weakest link"....

It just so happens that their best player who they always look for to produce, plays on the right wing....

Tim Howard is mostly to blame for everything this season.... not the back four.

Baines was quality for us when he 1st signed, but when he got injured he lost his place and has struggled to get a run since.

For me he’s a really good left back, and offers us lots going forwards. Unfortunately he isn’t the best defender and isn’t very tall. Against Hull we were playing a tall physical team. Balls in to the box aren’t being dealt with by our players and so taking a 6 foot plus player out like Lescott and replacing him with a mini man like Baines was a bad choice. Lescott deserves to be dropped, Baines deserves a run in the team. I think Moyes just chose the wrong game to do it and realised this quickly... hence the change at half time.

I hope he is given a chance in the coming weeks though as he has a lot of potential and for me is a better left back then Lescott.

"Nuno valente is slow and solid and to be honest not prem class"

Nuno Valente is, when match fit, is pure class. He is easily one of the best Premier League left-backs.

Proven at the top level of international, European and doemstic football, he has played amongst the best players in the game - and it shows.

The odd occasion he played last season he looked great, the major problem is his injuries and fitness levels. Once fit, the left-back position should be automatically his.

Baines didn?t play badly yesterday, he was just a victim of the fact we needed to change things round at half time. I think he should start the derby game as good passing sides are starting to target our left side when Lescott is left back and Liverpool aren?t a great team in the air.

?That leaves Neville as our most solid consistent defender? ? if that is true we are in more trouble than I thought.

Alex.... lifting a few before noon? What year are YOU living in? Nuno Valente may have been an international and played at the top level, but he hasn?t been at that level for at least three years now. How long would it take someone of his calibre to be match fit? 3 years???

I don?t actually think that Baines's performances are in fact the issue, daft as that may seem. I?m totally convinced it is the limitations of Howard and his total failure to command the box. He is a decent shot stopper but I?m afraid he?s never instilled any confidence in his defence when dealing with crosses. It is for this reason I believe Moyes looks to deploy as much height at the back as he can muster.

Sadly this is to the detriment of Baines whom I thought had a terrific game against Portsmouth and probably delivered more crosses in a single game than I?ve seen in all of the other games together. He is a great left back who unfortunately is being penalised for the shortcomings of others.

I suspect he may well be off in January if he is continually going to be dropped in order to placate others. Yesterday's game was a prime example; he never really put a foot wrong but yet again we conceeded goals due to a combination of poor communication and Howard's tendancey to remain rooted to his goal line.

Clyde, Nuno throughout his whole career has never played many games in a single season. Looking back at last years games, he played 9 times, although I did think it was more.

However, this was taken from Toffeeweb match report Vs. AZ...

"Nuno Valente
Had a really good game[...]Looks at home in European games.
Rating: 8"

I can’t remember who off the top of my head but I’m sure on more than one occasion the players have commented on his professionalism in training etc. He is a model professional who, when fit, is one of our best players even at 34.

Totally agree with you Gerry most of our frailties stem from Howard and his total inability to command his area. The second Hull goal was a prime example of this as any top keeper would have gone right through Osman and Neville to punch or catch the ball and Howard simply flailed at it. This is why the signing of Nash frustrates me so much as, although he's experienced, he fails to provide any competition for Howard when an outfield player surely wouldn?t get away and keep his place with the mistakes made in both the Liege and Hull matches, as Lescott being dropped showed.

Whilst Yobo is prone to the odd mistake and Jags will probably take a few games to adapt at being back at centre-half, I feel sorry for Baines as I rated him as one of our best performers in the period last season when he was fit. For some reason though Moyes doesn?t fancy him at all and I think its embarrassing that in essence we have a Centre half in Lescott who is woefully out of form, playing left back with two natural left backs on the bench. Seems like Baines will move on and I can?t help feeling he?ll bloom in another side with a decent Carsley-esque sitting midfielder who allows the full backs to push on more.

Valente is our best left-back by a long way. Every time I see him he oozes class.

I wish Moyes would play him more. He may have his injuries, but he’s then kept out of the team by an established back 4. But he is our best, and should be brought strainght back in, not wait for a chance.

Valente is such a complete player - he makes no mistakes, yet gets forward so much, and his distribution is spot on.

Where the hell are all these fans coming from? Even I don’t think I’m class.

Who are you watching?

Baines can't defend - simple. At present our defence is really shaky and the last thing we want is a non-tackling skinny little wimp at left back. I can't understand why Moyes bought him when he has turned out so poor. Lescott off-form is miles better than Baines will ever be.

Sadly, most Evertonians don't realise that Nuno Valente is the best left back we have had possibly in the last 20 years.

Play a player out of position long enough and it will tell = Lescott. Baines has no confidence at the moment so Moyes must surely play Nuno so we can get balance back into our defence.

Just have to support Nuno Valente?s claim for the left back position... he has always looked comfortable and competent and should be played there whenever he?s fit.

There’s nothing wrong with Baines except the obvious - he’s too small. I agree that Nuno at left back and would add some presence to the back four. I also agree that the pressure is added to by Howard’s unwillingness to come for a cross. I feel sorry for Baines - he actually looks a class player at times but there’s not much he can do when challenged in the air.

And talking of challenges in the air. How come Felliani at 6’4" consistently gets outjumped?

Nuno Valente is in the squad to warm the bench and nothing more. I didn?t see the game against Hull, but I think Baines is deserving of a chance. He has kept his head down and never moaned when being left out of the side because of a like of stature elsewhere in the side.

However, with Fellaini and Castillo in midfield, and Cahill now back, not forgetting the form of Lescott, he deserves a few games to see if he can justify a first team place. Most players would struggle if they were given only 45 minutes to do this. I remember him getting rave reviews for the way he handled Ronaldo when we played Man U just after he arrived...

Have to echo you, Gerry. Howard has been shown up this season IMHO as not being physical enough, dare I say courageous. Compare him with VDS or Schwartzer, who take the attitude either get out of my way mate or I collect you hard. Why oh why when Schwartzer was going on a free did we not even consider him? The bloke is world class and not only commands his box, but stops shots and save penalties to boot.

Schwartzer world class? You would have to be his mum to believe that.
He can’t comand his area at all. I’d rather have Jags in goal.

I really dont think it is the back four that is the problem - no matter what combination we put out. For me the root cause of all the uncertainty in our defense this season is Tim Howard.

For both Neville and Jagielka’s Og’s he should have claimed the ball - like they were both in HIS six yard area but in both cases he was flapping behind everton players rather than coming out roaring and claiming the ball like any decent keeper. Also for Yobo’s og - Joey never would have attempted to clear that ball if Howard had of yelled "keeper".

Granted Lescott has had an indifferent start to the season but for me Howard has been a shadow of the keeper we saw last season. I for one would give Nash a game to see how he gets on - and the Carling cup game is the perfect opportunity for that.

I have to admit I only saw the highlights of the Hull game but I saw the whole Portsmouth game and I thought Baines looked very good (going forward at least). I agree that Howard is having a shocking season and that Lescott’s goals are a factor but I think part of it is the fear of having an attacking full back. For all Lescott’s goals last year most came from set pieces so there was no risk at the back. When Baines bombs forward there is a risk of being caught on the break. Let’s face it we play 4-5-1 so we like having men behind the ball.

Leighton has been treated with complete contempt - all dressed up as tactics.

And for those who are eulogising about Valente..

Some people have short memories... always the way with football I suppose.

What I observed this season, is that we concede goals from set pieces and whenever the opponent pumps high balls into our six-yard box.

Tim Howard at 6'-3", Jagielka at 5'-11", Yobo & Lescott at 6'-2"... I am no rocket scientist, but from what I observed so far is that our centre backs are not high jumpers. Look at how Yobo and Lescott head the balls, their feet are no more than 2ft above the ground. I do know in order to jump high, you need to leap and attack the ball. So it boils down to positioning?

OR, is it because of the lack of confidence? They feel that strikers such as Jason Roberts are 10ft tall? At the moment, our 6ft+ defends are defending like SWP. Worrying...

Tim Howard is having a really bad time, and has been at fault with at least five goals this season. He is not talking control, not dominating his six-yard line. Oh for big Nev, the ball and anything else in the way, our players or the opponents', would be hammered out the way.

J Lescott has been messed about: left-back, centre-half... then back again. He is a great player but must be allowed to settle in one position. We didn't help Michael Ball years ago, and the same might happen with J Lescott... Or play all three in a five-man backline: Baines left and Nev right, three in the middle, and three in midfield, Saha and the Yak up front.