Well, when Tommy G left who did we get to replace him... Arteta. So let's hope Carsley?s replacement Castillo is also ten times the player of the original!

Whilst I would agree that Carsley was not an influential player, and that his sale alone is of only a little consequence looking at our poor form, particularly defensivley it is still clear that we miss the player in the centre of the park who
1) understands his defensive duties
2) who the defense understands
3) understands the premier league
4) on a pedantic point, who speaks the language

However, I would ague that we do miss one man alone, Alan Irvine. Hasn't it got to shit since he has left???

Good post Brian .... Nail on the head me thinks.

Unlike many of his counterparts, Moyes would appear not to like wingers or players with pace. In the six years of supporting his teams I can't remember a player that ticked either of these boxes, certainly not one that has flourished under his leadership in any case.

Robert Pierpoint:

I think you’ll find that aftrer Irvine left we battered Sunderland 7-1, had a great December, a good January and a great February before tailing off after mid March when our squad numbers were exposed as inadequate.

Alan Irvine was ok, but hardly some sort of guru. Preston got taken aprt on their own turf on Saturday as well, did they not?

The reasons for our scrappy start are a rubbish pre-season with inadequate preparation and no new signings, Moyes being pissed off and a squad of players who have taken their eye off the ball a bit and are short on confidence. Alan Irvine is pretty much fucking irrelevant in all that.

Saturday, with hopefully some controversial decisions going our way for once, and a good result can kick start the whole season for everybody! COYB!

Completly dissagree. The season we lost Gravesen (perhaps our most creative player) we replaced him with Arteta who is just as creative if not more, as well as having Cahill who scores more than most midfielders. As for Carsley, look at our league finishes over the last 6 years with Cars in the side and the couple of seasons he was injured or dropped and you will see a pattern:

Cars fit ? 7th place finish; Cars injured ? 17th place finish; Cars fit ?4th place finish; Cars injured half the season ? 11th place finish; Cars fit ? 6th place finish; Cars dropped for Jags resulting in poor start; Cars reinstated resulting in 5th place finish. This season, no Carsley resulting in yet another poor start.

It's no coincidence. It's a specialist role, which is why top 4 sides are spending between £15 and 18 million for them.

Karl Masters: On the button dear boy. Except for last paragraph, by which stage you were clearly inhaling a class A substance.

BK clearly not had the money (and admitted it), but DM has been doing everything wrong too since end of last season. Not a word out of him from May - August. Then the worst body language imaginable (clearly depressed). And with this contract STILL not being signed, I think if we’re looking for reasons why the players are unsure or distracted, look no further.

I’m not a berater of BK, unlike many here. But even I am somewhat embuggered by the idea that the barcodes can rustle up several potential fools (sorry, investors) in a week, and claiming the help of the same Keith Harris that was supposed to be our saviour, whilst despite working 24/7 (that’s 168 hours each week) we haven’t even got the semblance of a hint of a modicaum of potential interest.

That, I confess, I just do not get. Something is very wrong.

As for Saturday, I wish for 5 - 0 with Stevie Me and Carragher sent off (for fighting with each other). I expect 1 - 4 with at least 1 own goal. Sad times.

Ian, spot on Carsley’s influence was immense and he was pivotal to our best seasons results. Unfortunately there are a few who were quick to dismiss his contribution suggesting he played a limited role and would be easily replaced. I don’t expect too many to come on now and admit they may well have been wrong. The fact is we have paid a lot of money to compensate for Carsley’s departure and rightly so he was never going to be easily replaced and those who thought otherwise were in dreamland. The fact is we do not now have a player with Carsley’s terrier instinct and we’ve lost the bruising challenges.

Eventually we will recover but we now need to play to the strengths of the new recruits and that calls for a fundamental rethink. Whilst Carsley is not irreplaceable he was nonetheless a vital cog in the wheel but he could not go on for ever.

We?ve gone 12 games since our last clean sheet. We?ve had 3 clean sheets in 20 games. It started to get worse even when Carsley was here to be honest, the stats don?t backup the argument.

I?ve said before and I?ll say it again Carsley had his qualities but he can?t stop individual errors nor can he determine how other players play.

The farce in the summer has affected us a lot, losing to Blackurn and Portsmouth at home seems to have affected the players' confidence which has not helped at all. Injuries and lack of competition has also been a problem.

I?m inclined to agree with R Pierpoint re: the player in the middle of the park. However, Carsley was, imo, as poor as anybody else during our annual spring collapse last season. He often looked out of gas and had lost the borderline nasty influence he had possessed for much of the campaign.

I also think that an overload of positive media coverage had made his effectiveness seem like more than it was. Surely, the solidity of the Three Jays, and the offensive abilities of Peanut and the Yak were the primary on-field reasons for what success we enjoyed. Man, we?re missing Pienaar?s ability to move the ball swiftly across the carpet.

As the great Joni Mitchell once said, "Don?t it always seem to be that you don?t know what you?ve got til it?s gone" I am sure she wasn?t writing/singing about Lee Carsley ? but the words certainly fit. To describe Carsley as a journeyman is the kind of comment I would expect from a Kopite!

Just how important he was to the team can be seen by our need to replace him. He was excellent at covering the back four and playing the anchor man in midfield and he could add something to the attack if needs be.

As regards our tailing off as some of you have put it, towards the end of the season I heard an interesting fact on Channel 5 last week - Tim Cahill played 18 League matches last season out of 38. I wonder how Liverpool would do if Gerrard missed 20 League games, or Chelsea with out Lampard for a similar period? And wouldn?t it be interesting to see how Man Utd would cope if Ronaldo or Rooney were absent for 20 games? An interesting thought.

Perhaps we should cut our manager a bit of slack ? and be a bit more patient. Have some of you forgotten that last season we made an inconsistent start and came to form when we had most of our injured players available. Some of you are beginning to sound like Newcastle fans!! We would all like a quick fix solution ? but in the real world patience is better than panic.

I dont think we miss Carsley the player although he did a lot in front of the back 4 (he is easily replaced). We miss a general to lead the team on the pitch which is what I belive Carsley did he put the back 4 in its place. Neville doesn't do enough as capitain and the hole team look leaderless in defense.

On another note, this season in every game we?ve been second to every ball, nowhere near as fit as any other team. Also we seem to have changed our style of play to one-touch hairy fairy stuff which is a better style of play but to play it all the time you have to have the players to play it; as a result, we seem to have lost our ability to grind out games ? in short we?ve lost our toughness.

Don?t understand the obsession with the purely defensive midfielder.

Man U don?t have one and neither really do Chelsea now.

They all have players that can tackle (i.e. Essien) but they don?t just sit there.

If the opposition don?t have the ball they can?t score. Simple as.

All our midfield players should be able to pass and tackle. I?m really not into losing a whole link in the midfield chain because he doesn?t have the abilility to get up and down the pitch or pass a ball.

This is the Premier League. All our players should be able to tackle and pass!

We have basically the same eleven players as last year, apart from Carsley and Pienaar, I expect Hibbert to return on Saturday, with Neville as DM. 4-5-1, with Saha on bench, no places for Fellaini or Castillo.

As an Evertonian of 50 plus years I have seen some truly great players and some unbelievably poor players. Currently we have some very good players, some who would have graced the great teams of the past (Yakubu, Arteta, Cahill) and we don't have any poor players. The game itself is not difficult, maintain possession and wait for an opening. Your goalkepper is required to command his box and on occasion the 15-20 yards in front of it.

What I see with the current Everton team is a hesitant goalkeeper, commonly known as a shot stopper, who will not move from his line, nervous defenders unsure what to do when the ball comes into the 6 yard box or when overhit thro? balls are running into our box. Total lack of link up play between the defence and midfield, with 40-50 yard passes the order of the day.

I dont? think I have seen Howard throw the ball out once this season to a defender eager to receive it to build an attack, having said that I dont? think any of our defenders ask for it! We never see a midfield player come back to a defender and take the ball from him. (I thought Fernandes was doing this the latter part of last season.)

The point I am trying to make is that all the above problems are easily resolved by COACHING, the team and its tactics are the responsibility of the manager and his coaching staff. If I and 35,000 other Evertonians can see what the faults and solutions are then whay cant? they. 6 years is a lifetime in football and to be watching the same problems season in and season out is very frustrating.

Arsenal fielded a team against Sheffield of kids who basically cost nothing. Their passing and movement were a joy to watch, they have been COACHED to play this way. Winning trophies is not the motivation for most Evertonians, watching attractive, flowing football allied to effort and workrate is the attraction.

To say that foreign managers have not been successful in the English game is an insult to Wenger (and Ferguson who is also a foreign manager). Liege played the fast attractive football I long to see, all players quick and comfortable on the ball, the team cost little to assemble, the manger tactically astute and basically played Liverpool off the park, did what was necessary against Everton and shut up shop.

Gravesen a journeyman!!???

He was the best midfielder in the Premiership by a mile that season.

And him and Carsley got us fourth.

Shame on you all for shitting on your history.

The problem is we?re missing Pienaar's pace and quality outwide, we?ve brought in two replacements for Carsley (Fellaini and Castillo) and are playing these two similar defensive midfielders together and so we lack creativity in the middle which we had last season in the shape of Manuel Fernandes, but Moyes hasn?t brought anyone in to fill the void left by Manny. Also, it?s unfair to expect the new boys to be instant hits, because they?ve never played in the Premier League before and they can?t speak English, so it?s a difficult midfield partnership at the moment.

I dissagree with you Conner.
You say ?Carsley had his qualities but he can?t stop individual errors nor can he determine how other players play.?

Looking at the Leige game, how often was Lescott exposed after bombing up the wing? Both goals were as a result of Lescott being exposed. This hardly happend when Carsley was playing he was the spare man to double team the opposition forcing them to pass back or lose the ball rather than getting the cross into the box which resulted in the 2 goals. What I will admit is he couldn't have done much about the goals we have conceded from set pieces, which have been a lot this season.