The Mail Bag
Today's attendance
Comments (57)
Just back from today's match, which I was grateful to win despite another dire performance. I was wondering why 4,500 fans made it to the Reebok on an arctic night in midweek but only 31,000 turn up for today's home match.
Now I know it was a 12:00 kick off and live on Sky, i know it's only Fulham and there's a bit of a recession brewing, but why such a poor attendance when the away following is holding up so well? Does it really have anything to do with the style of play ? in which case why do so many continue to travel away?
I'm genuinely perplexed and believe that this trend seriously undermines the case for a new stadium.
Ray Robinson, Posted 01/11/2008 at 17:18:52
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Personally I think there were lots of positives from the game today. We are 7th. There is cause for optimism. The fans need to get behind them. I also think the team is showing nerves in front of their own ?too critical? fans. Sometimes they must feel they are amongst enemies when they play at home.
Still, back in the 70s, 30-odd thousand would have been considered a decent enough crowd even though Goodison would only have been 2 thirds full............
This "garbage football" has been around for last 6 years or so, so unless suddenly several thousand are all, at the same time, becoming disgruntled enough not to go, there must be something more to it.
Personally, I think the turbulent summer and lack of spending (until the last minute anyway) has a lot to do with it.
There was a post earlier this week about "fickleness" and I think we saw some more evidence of it today with the low attendance.
My automatic defence against abuse from the RS has always been to throw back at them about them being "armchair supporters", and that I wouldn’t talk about football with someone who couldn’t be bothered to go to the game - my fear is that we seem to be developing our own army of them....
Of course, it is everyone’s right to spend their money and their time as they wish, but I wonder how many of those who willingly absented themselves today will be posting on here about how rubbish we played today (from what they saw on the TV).
I was brought up on the premise that if I could go to the match, you go to the match - and God knows, I’ve seem some crap over the past 25 plus years. And it might be a controversial viewpoint to post on this website, but I honestly believe that if you choose not to go to the match, but instead watch it on the TV, you forfeit the right to complain about the team. Because you weren’t there.....
No doubt I’ll get lots of abuse, but that is my opinion.
"Yes, we tried to play it better today, on the ground ? pass, and maybe move if they can remember ? far less hoofball. But since Moyes has obviously not trained them to play like this, they are strangers to it... and it shows."
Do you have a season ticket at the training ground? If not then how can you possibly know whether David Moyes trains the players to pass and move?
I’m sure the manager would love it if we went out and passed teams off the park every week but it is not always that easy unfortunately.
Against Fulham today we hit the depths and WON... 'nuff said!!
I?m not saying that we are playing great football right now. We are not.
However, to suggest that the manager "obviously" does not train his players to pass the ball is just stupid.
Away games are in my opinion much more fun occasions. The atmosphere in an away end is general good and being part of a much more focused support is a good crac.
I then decided against going today on a cost basis. £32 for a ticket ain’t cheap on a midweek to be followed by that again on a Saturday is a lot when money is getting tight and you do have the option of watching at home.
The standard of football makes little or no difference to me - as bad as it has been I’ve seen plenty of worse over the years.
We could so easily be in the bottom 3 tonight but we some how manged to get 6 points in the last 2 games despite playing the most horrendous style of football ever seen by Everton fans. We are now in 7th spot but it's a false position alright.
We don't deserve to be up there on this showing and Fulham should've battered us today. The woodwork is still shaking from some of their efforts and Fulham are the worst away team in the world. Lots of work to be done I think.
You seem disappointed that we?ve won the last 2 games???? Yes, the football is not great, but if we can win games when we are playing awful then once we do click, who knows? There might even be some positivity among these pages.
First and foremost the product on offer is not exactly first class.
Secondly the areas surrounding Goodison Park have in effect become no parking zones. We have been parking in the same street for over 20 years which is some distance from Goodison, yet that street has now become a residents permit holder only street.
Thirdly, money is tight and I would argue that many more Evertonians are in employment where weekend working is obligatory rather than voluntary.
Fourthly the transport to Liverpool from outlying areas is less frequent and takes longer than it did some ten years ago.
Last and not least, Sky have hijacked the game and who could argue with someone when they refuse to spend 30 quid or more to watch something they can watch for free in the pub
So, if you take all these factors together plus the lack of real competition, it is no surprise that attendances will start to fall. I am a season ticket holder and more often than not that is the only reason I attend every game.
The clubs have to realise that not every fan is a blind follower, especially when the game can be watched in a variety of ways other than going to the match.
Just off the top of my head but I think that Fulham is always at the lower end of the attendance graph.
One tiny bonus about playing crap and winning is that for some time now we have been playing crap and losing, so I suppose I, very reluctantly, will put it ever so slightly into the glass half-full, with the proviso that, while it is half-full it still tastes like cat's piss.
IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT THE RESULT! Whatever some might say. Football is a business yes, but it is part of the entertainment business.
When was the last time, prior to the United game, you came out smiling? And how long is it since you went away saying this is as good as it gets, that was well worth the money... tip, you won?t have to take your shoes and socks off to count them up.
Unfortunately they have the game by the bollocks so financially Everton losing about £150k in gate money is well compensated for.
Now clubs like Fulham should be penalised by Sky for their lack of support and Everton given the money, what a joke their support is and only marginally worse than the likes of Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn ? it's clubs like these that impact badly on attendances.
We should in future give them a maximum of 1000 and the remaining 2-3,000 to kids for a pound every every time we play one of these clubs... if we converted 25% of them to season ticket holders in the future it would be good business.
While you are right to an extent about 6 years of shite football, I think Moyes has an enjoyed a tremendous honeymoon period of around 5 years ? oodles of time he was given to ’get it right’. A lot of people ? me included ? thought last season had seen him finally break free of his dour, negative, defensive Scottish shackles... Ha! What a joke.
Then came the summer transfers fiasco and the whole contract fiasco... yea there are a lot of factors. But I would not begrudge anyone the decison to go or not go ? for whatever reason ? that is entirely up to them. And on this site we have a very open policy of not requiring any so-called Everton "credentials" before spouting forth about the game.
In fact I discourage that whole issue. We are Evertonians, we are a global family. Only a small percentage of all Evertonians can actually get to the game ? probably far fewer in fact than are confined to their "armchairs" for one reason or another. Only a limited portion are active users of the internet.
We provide this facility for anyone who wants to express their opinion about the game. We frown on making judgements about the right of our fellow Evertoonians to do that. Sermon over!
As for the attendance, an early kick-off disallows many who might work Saturday morning, or travel a distance, from attending ? especially as it is Fulham and on the telly.
I fully accept that there are plenty of people who are unable, for a multitude of reasons, to attend the ground, and I would never suggest that they should be perceived as anything less than an Evertonian - nor would I suggest that they shouldn’t be allowed to offer their opinion.
What I’m really struggling to understand is how anyone could choose NOT to go if they are able to, because they don’t like the football/Bill Kenwright/David Moyes/lack of signings/crap results - particularly if they then complain about what they saw on the TV.
I know if there’s anyone who’s reading this who fits this description won’t lose any sleep over this, but if someone can’t be bothered to go when you’re in the position that, as you say, a lot of people who are Evertonians would love to be in, then I’m not going to treat their comments with the same respect as someone who did go.
31,000 at home is a disgrace no matter how we are playing. Our negative support is affecting the team.
Our lower attendances are due in the main to the effects of the credit crunch. Tightening of the pursestrings means families now have a lot less to spend ? and so people will make obvious cutbacks. When we are playing shite like today, yes I agree Michael, people will not go, but I?m sure there would have been a couple thousand more if people had anything other than mothballs in their pockets.
Man City have had odd attendances, ranging from the high (Robinho transfer) to the bizarrely low. I have no doubt if we were playing as well as Villa and flying high, the fans would find other cutbacks and come to Goodison, but I think you?ll find in general all attendances will suffer in some form from the current economic climate. The more financially astute (i.e. not Everton) will find ways of still drawing fans in for matches.
Look at Spurs in just two games under a manager who wants his teams to play football... and tell me that today Stoke deciding to go for it against Arsenal after taking the lead isn?t exactly what Everton should have done instead of shitting themselves and being ordered to defend deep and get tonked?
The football is abysmal to watch and the credit crunch is rightly turning many regulars off from watching. Six years and counting to learn from mistakes and play football with the conviction you can and should win games isn?t much to ask for.
- It?s our third game in a week. Second at home. A dear-do and maybe a bit of football burnout for a lot of fans.
- It?s half term at a lot of schools in the area. Maybe certain parents decided to do something with the kids?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6667QeZevg4
Why Moyes thinks we can play good football without a functioning midfield who can pass the ball to each other is a mystery. He got out of jail big time yesterday via Saha. To replace Fellaini with Cahill in center mid and Pienaar with Anichebe on the right wing was the act of a man who wasn?t watching the game.
HOWEVER, I think it?s a question of balance and I think it?s important to say the negativity has gone too far and is in danger of being unfairly detrimental and obscuring the acknowledgement of any positives.
I agree with Tony Marsh (did i really just say that?) in as much as we are lucky to be 7th. But it?s not all luck and who doesn?t need some luck. There has been improvement: The passing has a long way to go but it?s a hell of a lot better than it was, as is the determination to get the ball and desire to win appears far more evident.
But the biggest factor I see in evidence is the lack of confidence and I think they fear their own fans, which is a sad state of affairs. So don?t underestimate the power of this website ? it has a far reaching influence amongst the fans and I?m sure is known to the club personnel be it players, manager or someone from the press office.
This is a very crucial point in the season and we could begin to gain momentum. The fans have their part to play in that and support and positivity could go a long way to helping restore some confidence, some pride and ultimately some level of success.
a) Money is getting tighter and even reduced prices is no consolation to someone who has lost (or is about to) their job ? not that reducing prices is bad thing;
b) We?re not regenerating sufficiently by attracting the support of enough new fans;
c) The close season transfer fiasco highlighted the club?s limited ambition / ability to compete;
d) The style of football is not entertaining;
e) The shadow of Destination Kirkby has disgruntled many traditionalists;
f) Sky is having a massive negative effect ? how about a kick-off at 3pm on a Saturday anyone?
g) People are generally getting disillusioned (Hull City fans apart) with the same old 4 winning things all the time.
There are some things that we can?t influence but b, c, d and e are combining to shroud the club in negativity which is persuading some people to stay away. I offer no answers here but the club needs to address these issues if we?re going to avoid a sub 30,000 home league attendance at some point this season
On the whole yesterday, we played, or at least tried to play good football. What was lacking was the final pass on every occasion, apart from the goal of course. That comes with confidence, which we still don?t have yet. It also comes from not having any wingers, something we are really paying for this year. One other possible reason? I?ve never heard Goodison so stale and quiet in my life and the only time there is a noise it?s 30,000 groaning at one mislaid pass (yes unfortunately there were a few too many yesterday). However, it?s not helping.
I know it?s been a very poor 6-9 months off the pitch, and not much better on it, but we need to get behind the Blues, realign our expectations (we simply don?t have the players to play Copacabana football) and push on to stay in the top 8/ top 10.
It is ludicrous to blame the fans for the team?s lack of confidence and poor form. A summer of mismanagement at all levels within inside the club left us with the laughable situation of entering a campaign with new players who barely knew each other, never mind fitting into a system of play. How is that the fans fault?
Everton Football Club have enjoyed loyal and consistent support from its fan base over many years, in fact perhaps we have been too loyal because, let?s face it, we have tolerated some awful football over the last 15+ years that would have brought a rain of cushions and more verbal protests had it been served up in the 70s or 80s. If you doubt the loyalty, check out the attendances through the 90s then look at the league position and goals scored column.
Derek is right, football is as much about entertainment as it is about winning and we are one of the worst sides to watch in the Premier League and have always been. I heard a silver-haired gent ranting to himself yesterday in the Park End about it being a disgrace to play 4-5-1 at home against Fulham; he opined why don?t we (the supporters) care more? He was met with a stony silence. The quality of our football is like the ?Elephant in the Room? ? we all know it's dreadful but (in contrast to your opinion Julie) the fans don?t complain loudly enough. Quiet compliance and an acceptance of mediocrity have become defining features of being an Evertonian.
Before you start slating the fans' loyalty, you need to think about Mr Moyes's loyalty ? who prevaricated over signing a massive contract before apparently receiving reassurances over how the club would be run. Some Evertonians (misguided in my opinion) think the world will collapse if David Moyes wasn?t out manager I really don?t believe this would be the case. I want Moyes to be successful at Everton but I also think it?s high time he delivered some progressive ATTACKING football on a consistent basis.
The fact is that no one except the people who usually go and now don?t will know why.
Fulham is and always has been a crap game; if I didn?t have a season ticket I wouldn?t go to it ? especially with it being on telly and most importantly the fact that Fulham only brought about 150 fans will have a massive effect on the attendance.
Third game in a week; crap opponents and we are not playing well... it?s not surprising the numbers are down, even Marsh has resorted back to type after his unexpected post following the Man Utd game, we have won our last 2 but he still finds time to see the negatives.... "we are lucky to be 7th and it?s a false position"!!!!! ? behave lad, you sound like the bellends from over the park when you talk like that.
Yakubu can put some chances away but his all round game is not good enough. No effort and poor first touch. When Vaughan comes on he instantly puts pressure on the opponents' defence because he's willing to run. Cahill has tremendous enthusiasm and can score but as a midfielder his passing is limited.
Osman is neat on the ball but is in and out all through the game and we can forget about him when we play a big team. Arteta (the latest scapegoat) is still being played out of position and we lack a proper wide man. Lescott doesn't want to be played at left back.
Fellaini has won some of the crowd over with his goals but for £15m his midfield play still looks average and he is not as effective as the likes of Bullard, Sidwell or Malbranque who would have been much cheaper options in the summer. Neville does a decent job at right back but the manager thinks he's a midfielder.
Coupled with the managers lack of tactical ability and overall nouse, too many people now realise we are going nowhere. We'll string together a little run and then, sure as eggs are eggs, there will be another dip/disaster around the corner. And since the chairman gave Moyes 5 more years, some fans have given up. I can't blame them as I think we all now know that Moyes just isn't good enough to be in charge at Everton.
Some of us will admit it; some of us won't... but more and more kids are wearing red shirts. LFC have a bigger waiting list for season tickets each year and we have 30,000 diehards left while our chairmen still wants a ridiculous new stadium in Kirkby. He should be far more concerned about the dreadfull football we play which is driving our supporters away from the club.
What sums Moyes up for me is if he'd kept Carsley by giving him the 2-year contract he wanted and then signed no one in the summer the team would have been stronger. That shows how pathetic his transfer dealings have been.
Even if they haven't got that much money, please please please let there be a buyer of the club out there who has the common sense to end this ridiculous cycle of us going nowhere and stop the worry of what the next disaster will be because me and thousands of other Evertonians are fed up of it.
Moyes?s transfer dealings are pathetic and he has no nouse? Obviously your hatred in Moyes is so entrenched that a debate about this would be meaningless.
Personally, I am no longer willing to subsidise the tenure of Bill Kenwright.
As I mentioned earlier I wouldn’t have gone to watch us play Fulham yesterday if I didn’t have a season ticket. It is always a boring, skilless game
All your post did was slag of Yakubu, Osman, Fellaini and Moyes (the last one for not giving an ageing midfielder a 2 year contract)
We know what to expect from Everton under Moyes and have done for years now so what makes this season any different?
It doesn?t stop me loving the club ? just not how it is right this moment.
?We know what to expect from Everton under Moyes?. Exactly. It?s not good enough. With just a bit more from the manager we could have finished above Liverpool the last two seasons. Imagine how it would have damaged them financially and helped us no end. Instead we had a manager boosting the squad last January by bringing Gardner to the club. It?s pathetic.
Yes, I would have given the ageing Carsley a 2-year contract as he knew his job and did it well and I would have used £15m to bring in Sidwell, Bullard and Malbranque to strengthen our midfield properly well before the season started.
If you still don?t understand, forget it mate.
Yes we look crap but as I mentioned earlier, I wouldn?t attend a Fulham game if I didn?t have a season ticket.
Last season's attendence was only 32,743 so not that much of a difference this year, then again a lot of posters here don?t let the facts get in the way of a good moan.
You say you want an exciting team but you wanted £15m spent on Malbanque, Sidwell and Bullard and wanted Carsley given a two-year contract.
I despair. I really do.
Whether we can get better than Sidwell remains to be seen.
It?s obvious to everyone that Carsley hasn?t been replaced so it was best to keep him until a replacement like Sidwell had settled in. He didn?t need to stay for two years but we did need him at the start of this season. We have to be realistic and shape a side and give it the right balance as we don?t have loads of money. Something Moyes doesn?t have a clue about. His fixation on making the ?big? signing cost us dearly at the start of the season and yes players like Sidwell, Bullard and Malbranque would have helped, and they are players who can actually pass to a team mate! Moyes ?aimed higher? as you put it and look what happened. A disastrous start.
The problem I find is there is a general apathy for the game as a whole that stems from the fact that we are not Everton Football Club now but Everton plc and rather than be a top six side we are a mid-table business. As with all businesses, if you offer a poor level of service you struggle to keep your head above water. If Everton are to become a success, we need to get back to entertaining people/offering value for money, otherwise the club's situation will only get worse. Gates will continue to fall (I have been in Goodison with only 11,000 other "diehards") and we won't be a viable proposition.
Not sure I get the relevance of this old hackneyed point about Everton being a business... they have been a business since 1880 or thereabouts and the name of the business is "Everton Football Club Co Ltd." There is no such thing as "Everton plc". They are a business, they need to operate as a business.... some feel they need to, nay MUST operate far better as a business.
I don’t think you can get too hung up on raw attendance numbers to be honest: they are what they are. Plenty of different factors to consider, as this thread shows. It is funny you can’t see the irony in your last sentence though: Everton have had low attendances... and survivied. It’s the old caveat though: past performance is no guarantee of future returns... especially in this day and age!
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As you can see from the diverse views put forward in our mailbag threads, the 4,500 fans who went to the Reebok represent a large portion of the core fanatic support who will go the game no matter what. And full credit to them ? this club would be nothing without them. But attendance at away games is in large part for the ritual, the camaraderie of the occasion, and least of all in the feint hope of witnessing a footballing feast.
They also, in all likelihood make up a fundamental portion of the less-than 30,000 diehard Evertonians who turned up today for what should have been a home-banker ("mid-table six-pointer, anayone?). It's the less committed so-called "fair-weather" fans if you like who appear to be staying home in droves... and I fully support them in taking a stance against garbage football.
Yes, we tried to play it better today, on the ground ? pass, and maybe move if they can remember ? far less hoofball. But since Moyes has obviously not trained them to play like this, they are strangers to it... and it shows. Fans have every right to vote with their feet, and I think that is exactly what they are doing.