I think you?ll find Arteta played at least half the game on the right anyway - he swapped 2-3 times with Pienaar and was equally inaffective on both sides. Pienaar is one of my favourite players, but face facts, he was having one on Saturday and deserved to be dragged off.

I love it when people who don't even go to the game start slagging off our kids, especially as Vic did more in a few minutes than the two "superstars" did all afternoon, give them a chance or go and watch Aussies rules.

The footbal is dire, but try to understand the reason for that instead of talking shite.

I don't understand why our play is drivel. Moyes has had enough time and money to sort it. I was there on Saturday and 2nd half we were crap; Fulham were better and that's saying something. I don't understand how we create nothing and then blame Yakubu.

I think Vic has done well on the wing, his game has matured a lot in comparison with his bezzie mate Vaughan who is as reckless now as he was three years ago, I wish Moysie would loan Vaughan out to get some play time to mature a bit. Maybe aim your criticism at Cahill, our Talisman who missed three served on a plate.

But you are right, I don?t know how we still serve up poor football when you look at the players we have. Or that subs are always a desperate throw of the dice. I?d love to see a game of 90 mins of good football and a resounding win, we seem to get one of those once a season, and we need one now to pick up everyone's spirits.

Dave Wilson - though Gary may not "even go to the game" it appears he has a far better knowledge of what is going on than you. Assuming you went to the game I suggest you pay a little more attention to the game, try and understand what is going on or go and watch some netball.

Classy reply Dave. Such self-control. Gary, don’t you know you’re obliged to attend matches to have an opinion, even if it means flying in from Australia? Do yourself a favour and watch Aussie Rules indeed. Better entertainment than the shite at GP and you wouldn’t have to put up with such bullshit on here either.

"WE DESERVE BETTER, a better run club, a better new stadium within the city boundaries, better management & better performances from a load of overpaid prima donnas. "

I was with you all the way until the bit about the overpaid prima donnas. Sadly these are the reason throughout the game that you will never again get your wishes.

To balance out the view that we play poor football which, for large parts of the past 2 years and before, I can’t argue with. Moyes took a very average squad and got them playing in an effective yet incredibly unattractive way.

Now that way of playing and the staff that he recruited to play it have been made redundant by the heightened expectations, which are there solely because of how well Moyes has done to this point.

Now, you can call me a Moyes apologist if you like, but up to the end of last season he has arguably been one of the best managers in the Premiership.

Now, we sustained pressure for 2 seasons on the top 4/6 and we’re looking to improve, as is normal. Moyes’ challenge is a new one. Suddenly, UEFA qualification and a bit of a cup run is no longer appreciated, but it is expected. We’re waiting to see how Moyes is going to break Everton into the top-4. It’s the next step and something we all want and expect Moyes to be working at, which again is completely normal.

However, this new challenge is a massively different one from that of the past 3 or 4 years. Moyes has produced a side which don’t play nice football, but get results. I’m not going to argue the point here, between entertainment and results, people want different things. I personally like to see us play good passing football like the middle 3rd of last season. But I will most certainly settle for flat-out commitment and a battling, unattractive performance if it gets us the points, when necessary.

Moyes is going to need a year or 2 to adjust to his new task. We have playing staff that are not up to the job of breaking the top-4 spots. Moyes, in general, has been doing things right. We have Yakubu, Arteta, Pienaar, Cahill, Yobo, Jags, Lescott, Hibbert and Howard all coming into what should be the ’peak’ years of their careers. We have Vaughan, Victor, Fellaini, Baines and Baxter with many years ahead of them and a few old heads to supplement that.

In signing his 5-year contract, Moyes is very likely to be here for a while to come and it is likely that the next couple of years might not be the best, while he reshuffles his deck in order to begin the assault on the CL spots. Very few teams are capable of making a steady transition even when at the top, look at Arsenal, since their unbeaten season.

Personally, I’ll give Moyes until the end of next season to shift things around and prove that he can make the step up. Though I might not be happy about what happens before that and I want us to provide some form of achievement this year, these things take time and I’m realistic about that.

David Jones

You obviously didn't go on Saturday or you?d know what I said was accurate. I noticed you couldn't challenge any of the points I made. Why doesnt that surprise me?

Shane

Everyone's entitled to an opinion and my opinion is Gary is talking shite. I?m getting sick to death of people who never go near GP criticising kids they clealy know nothing about.

Lets get this straight once and for all...Baines is NOT a winger and neither is Big Vic...why the fuck people think it’s right to play players out of position and expect them to change games is utterly beyond me !!

The reason we play shite football is down to ONE man & ONE man only....DAVID MOYES !!

The manager of any/every team dictates the tactics and pattern of play...that’s his job...and if he doesnt then he shouldnt be there.

In the last 3yrs his tactics have ruined 2 proven goalscorers and he is well on the way to ruining a third.
He was a journeyman centre half as a player and his management style and tactics reflect this in our style of play....it’s called percentage football I believe.

Constantly playing people out of position and never admitting when you’ve made a mistake will never lead to a settled football playing team.

FFS he’s now trying to get us to believe that Osman is a holding midfield player....what’s that all about !!

Despite the 6pts from the last two games the performance in both games was absolutely DIRE !!! ( as have all but 45 mins against Man U)....but get used to it cos that’s all you’re gonna get for the next 5yrs.....HOOOOOFFFF !!

I am with Dave on this one fully.

Pienaar was having a mare on Saturday and deserved to be pulled.

Why should Saha have been on from the start?, by all reports he was gash on Wednesday.

Why do we derseve better? especially fans who don?t even offer any financial aid to the club.

Totally ridiculous title aswell, if Saha hadn?t have scored the winner on Saturday it would have been better. The fact that the change made by Moyes resulted in a win just completely negates the dig at his subs.

Just another one in the long line of posts issued because we are pissed off with the start of the season, but ironically we seem to be moaning more now since we have had two wins on the bounce......funny fans we have.

I call it ALEHOUSE football!!

Playing people out of position to ?do a job for the team? and aimlessly punting the ball upfield to no-one in particular can be seen in any park on every Sunday morning up and down the country..... now we get it EVERY Saturday/Sunday/Monday/Thursday whenever Everton are palying.

The majority of you are obviously happy with the way Moyes plays the game... unfortunately I?m not.

Dave Wilson

Don?t you think you?re being a bit hard on a Blue who can?t get to the game? Let?s be honest, you see far more of the game on television than you do going to the match where the biggest benefit is the atmosphere. When there is one, that is.

You also say "Pienaar is one of my favourite players, but face facts, he was having one on Saturday and deserved to be dragged off" " I think that is not the general opinion of his performance, I think Pienaar's biggest problem is that he?s mentally too quick for some of his teamates, witness the ball inside the fullback on a couple of occasions when Arteta, Osman etc. where caught out by his quickness of thought. In an attacking side full of movement he would be an outstanding player.

Gary Lawler makes some valid points, I suggest YOU re-read HIS comments again before putting the boot in. And before you say it, I WAS at the match watching that shite, in my usual season ticket seat in Gwladys St, where I first started 50 years ago.

My biggest gripe on saturday was leaving Cahill on the pitch, playing as a midfielder in both a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3...

Absoutely brainless stuff.

"In the last 3yrs his tactics have ruined 2 proven goalscorers and he is well on the way to ruining a third"

Looks like I will be on a fact finding mission again today. There was a good post sent yesterday detailing the Yaks last 5 seasons....and guess what? Last season he scored the most he has ever scored in a season....hmmmm ruining him you say?

Beattie was a crap forward who has one good year with the Saints and AJ, as we were constantly reminded by his detractors on this site, was also apparantly shite with no first touch and terrible at one-on-ones (which he was), he was brought up from the Fizzy Drink league and didn?t make it... but if you want to blame Moyes for it I will lose no sleep.

I was wondering when you would turn up Ciaran and have you usual Cahill dig....lol

Dave Wilson,

What exactly has going to the game got to do with being able to give a decent analysis?

Are you another one of these twats who thinks that an obscure view of the back of some imbecile's head makes you qualified to dismiss other people's opinions?

Tony,

It’s not a dig at Cahill, it’s a dig at his misuse.

It?s the motto that?s the drivel! Just outdated cant. Everton ceased to be able to afford the best long ago and throughout our Premier history, owners and managers have had to struggle to keep us even competing in the top tier. Only since Kenwright chose Moyes as our saviour have we become respectable again. Davey continues to make silk purses out of pigs ears and we should all be grateful that he does. Pragmatism rules. Count the points and not the good points of how we get them and you?ll be a happier man!

"Nil satis nisi optimum" & "The People's Club" is just a gimmick. You don?t actually believe the club / fans have or will ever aspire to it do you? I wish people would stop banging it around as if it is one of gods commandments!

Doddy?s such a prat but just occasionally he comes out with a gem that for all the wrong reasons hits the nail right on the head. His post this morning is one of those.

Pragmatism rules... well, what next Richard?

For practical reasons Everton will re-name themselves Kirkby Town. EFC will sell all the better players to pay off their debts. For good measure and to be totally pragmatic they will cease to be a Football Club and play another sport where the competition is not so fierce and difficult.

The motto is not an albatross to be dismissed when it doesn?t suit; it is a maxim to attempt to live up to and no amount of revisionist historians can take away the great football that this club has served up in the past... if not the present.

If ever a post revealed what the ?Everton Way? really means then yours is the most accurate and the one most likely to lead to the total demise of what Everton Football Club has been and what it should be.

Might I suggest "Inhabilis caecus bardus Kenwright" ... (on a scroll, beneath a picture of large ?bellus-endus?)

Yes because Baines is a superb winger isn’t he, erm......not he’s not. When you compare Victor performance on the wing to Baines’s there’s simply no competition. Anichebe was the far more productive outlet when he played outwide. Baines on the other hand looked like a lost boy on the left handside.

If Baines is going to play, play him at left back where he’s a very effective player. That’s the only gripe I have with Moyes at the moment. Lescott is lacking confidence and Baines deserves a go.

The groans just proved how clueless alot of Evertonians are, how easily they are willing to turn on there own without diving them a chance to prove themselves. In Moyes’s case prove he can change a game and revert to a different system.

We where struggling in a 4-5-1 and a 4-4-2, that was quite obvious. We couldn’t boss Fulham as we simply don’t have the midfielders. It’s a shame but that’s the truth.

So what do you do? Do you try and play through midield or do you get as many people forward and go for a direct route? We went for the direct route. We went for it and it worked, the players who came on changed the game.

He can’t really win to be honest. No matter what his subs where like against Fulham. The crowd where getting restless at the players inibility to break down Fulham and they took it out on Moyes.

I have a go when there’s something to have a go at. At the end of the day we won the game and Saha changed the game.

Gary - you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I would agree with some of what you and indeed others say about the quality of football. However, let?s not be totally negative. We did win our last two games and whilst I am sure we would all have loved to have seen two great displays of attractive, attacking football let?s not get too picky as it where.

I remember the 1969-70 Champions and whilst for the majority of games they were a joy to watch, I can recall some not so attractive games e.g. 1-0 v Nott?m Forest and a couple of 0-0 draws in Jan or Feb 1970 v Newcastle and Coventry. The point is sometimes you have to "win ugly" as some of the TV pundits would put it.

A mate of mine who is into Aussie Rules (he has actually written a book on the subject ? The Full Points Footy Encylopedia) was telling me of the recent Grand Final where it seems that the better team lost (apologies if you like Hawthorn!!).

In any team sport, there are times when you just have to keep plugging away and win even when not at your best. At least the last 3 results, v Man Utd, Bolton and Fulham, should go some way to boost the teams? confidence ? hopefully the attractive football will follow.

It doesn't matter who we have in charge, we will never win the league (or anything) again ever. Unless the ?top 4? fuck off in to a Euro league of some sort. We simply haven?t got the money to compete with them. Get used to it and stop whinging about it.

It really winds me up when people moan about Moyes - it doesn?t matter who we get, we ain?t got the cash. Another manager might take us down and that would deffo be the fuckin? end of that. Think of it from that perspective lad.

Go and put some snags on the bar-b....!!!!!!!!!!!

Spot on. The football?s shite, the club is the worst run business in the world as Goodison, bereft of directors and direction, is an empty vessel while Kenwright fiddles in London.

It's lucky our motto isn?t that of Rangers or Villa as this season, yet again, we were not "ready" or "prepared".

The groans during the sub were purely because it was clear that if anyone was to be taken off, it was Cahill not Fellaini! Cahill was missing all our best chances and playing rubbish, as was Pienaar and deserved to be replaced! Also, I think Cahill thought he was a striker on Saturday and not the linking midfielder! That game was 4-4-2 from the off and hampered Cahill and Fellaini, then add to that, bad games from Pienaar and Yak, but at least we won and can look to improve for the next game!

Bit by bit, season by season, Moyes has drawn Evertonians into his belief that hoofball is the ONLY way Everton can hope to win matches given their resources. Dodd puts the case perfectly and it's sad how many buy into this philosophy. Of course, it may well be true but I don?t have to buy into it and so stopped going two years ago. I can?t say my life is any worse for that decision.

Dave Wilson -

Last time I checked you weren’t the editor of this website. Whether someone has been to the game, watched it on tv, listened to it on the radio or read the match report in the ’effin paper, they are entitled to their opinion.

I’d be interested for you to fully explain how going to the game, which I did, gives me more of a right to comment than someone who watched it on tv?

It’s always worth stepping back and looking at the bigger picture for a second, DM has one of the most limited budgets in terms of expenditure and wages in the Premier League and yet he has assemebled, in my eyes, what is a very talented squad of players albeit who aren’t on top form at the moment. So ask yourself this: if, 5 years ago, when he was first appointed he said he could guide us to 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th placed finishes, would you have believed him or would you have collapsed laughing into your unbelievably hot half time pie? Further more, would you have been willing to put a tenner on it? Because I’m telling you, given the state we were in that would have been one hell of a set of odds.

Jesus Christ, give the guy a break.

Dave wilson, I appreciate youre comments, & as a born & bred scouser & Evertonian for 38 years I do believe that I?m entitled to an opinion, & as I am not able to go to Goodison Park & have to watch it on the box, where you get the chance to watch replays & highlights at half & full time.

So, in summing this up, I believe I get a better view of the football we play than you do. As for talking shite, you might want to read some of your posts & take a chill pill pal!

Garry

Let me get this straight, so there can be no misunderstanding: I have no doubt in my mind you are entitled to an opinion, at no stage have I said you're not ? despite what the post-twisting rewriters that populate these pages have said ? read my post.

My problem with your article is you don't just disagree with the substitution, you go on to attack one of our youngsters ? Big Vic ? which is talking shite in my book. I don't think you?ve seen enough to make such a statement. I actually tell you this clear as day.

One point I would pick you and others up on is that you say you get a better view of the game than me... you don't. I see all of the pitch, all of the time, I see people drifting offside, I see forwards making intelligent runs ? or not in the Yak's case ? I see injuries, I see subs warming up, I see crowd reactions, feuds develop between players, possible passes, opportunities to create opportunities, the list is endless. I can actually see all of these things at the same time.

When I watch it on the telly, I see what a cameraman allows me to see, I might see it in slow mo, I might see it from 5 different angles, I might see it 20 times, but the TV companies dictate what I get to see and they can only show me one thing at a time.

Btw, I took the trouble to read your article again, Garry, and if I put aside my annoyance ? the bit where you talk shite about Big Vic ? I think you're pretty much on the money, for what it's worth.

Ben Hunt - totally agree. Too many people have forgotten how far we have progressed in the last 5 or 6 years. In the period after we won the league in 1987 and up to 2000-01 season how many times did we finish in the top half of the table? Let?s give Moyes and the team a break ? if some of you can remember back 12 months we had an inconsistent start to last season and it was only in October that we really got going and put a good run together - once we got most of our injured players back that is. I would like to see Liverpool cope with Gerrard missing due to injury for over 10 games.

And on the subject of the quality of football - I didn?t see too many moans from Man Utd fans after a 4-3 win over Hull, with Hull coming back from 4-1 down to give them a bit of a fright. Sometimes you have to "win ugly " - NO team plays brilliant attacking/attractive/entertaining football every match.

How many sets of eyes have you got dave?

While you?re watching something else is it not possible that you miss something others might see?

Of course not... but then again, everyone?s entitled to an opinion... as long as it doesn?t run contrary to yours.

ps: Televisions have inventions nowadays where amazingly you can see the whole of the pitch... FROM A HELL OF A BETTER POSITION THAN YOU?RE IN!

Ciaran

I see all of the playing area all of the time. It's not as you keep saying, an obstructed view, nor do I look at the back of some imbecile's head, as you?ve also convinced yourself. I sit in the front row and the guy infront of me is 25ft below me.

While you're watching some fat Geordie chairman drink a pint in one, I have a panoramic view of a captain bollocking some lazy midfielder for not tracking back.
While you're watching SAF chewing his gum I?m watching feuds develop between players, arguments between team mates, tactical discusions etc . . No camera man is dictating what I watch.

While you're driven mad by some biased git of a comentator as you watch your deodorised snapshot of the game, I?m witnessing everything.

And while I?m watching Lescot play left back for a total of 900 minutes you don't even know he was playing.

Enjoy MOTD by all means but don't delude yourself that you have a better view than me.

Dave,

What wrong? You don?t like presumptions on how people see the match? Surprising revelation, considering your posts are littered with them.

MOTD eh! Never watch it, never will.

ps: The day you hear me commenting on something I don?t see is the day you can call me uninformed.

pps: Astute? Perhaps you should have a word with your cat.

Ciaran,
You commented on Lescott's appearances, well there are 10 games there that you didn't see, so yes your uninformed. Perhaps Lineker, Lawrenson or Hansen just glossed over them...