The Mail Bag
Tim Howard. One of the Best
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I've just seen an article on the official site regarding Tim Howard. Apparently his record is less than one goal a game based on these stats:
Games Goals Conceded Tim Howard 100 99 Neville Southall 100 102 George Wood 100 108 Gordon West 100 113He is currently in better form than even the great Nev Southall. He has his detractors, but I think this stat shows we have a great keeper between the sticks. Keep it going, Tim!!!
Steve Guy, Posted 09/11/2008 at 15:13:23
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Michael Kenrick
I think that says much more about Moyes's total preoccupation with defence, and to me, the fact that Howard's average stat is not significantly lower ? given the Scottish One's expertise as a great defender and constructor of (supposedly) impenetrable defences ? reflects badly on Moyes and his failings when it comes to getting his players to defend. Thus, for most of this season, Everton have had the WORST defensive record, that is the MOST GOALS CONCEDED of anybody.
Tim Howard has played 100 games for us and in these 99 goals have been scored. Even the great Neville Southall conceded three more in his first century of appearances. Let us congratulate Tim and wish him the best for breaking many more club goalkeeping records in the future.
Wow, Michael, you?ve got a major downer on David Moyes this evening!
Thankfully, our position in the table is judged at the end of the season, not after the 12 games you?re highlighting (which really should be 8, given that just 2 goals have been conceded in the last 4 games).
So if you want to judge solely on this season, please wait until the end of the season, not just pick on a section of games to bash Moyes with.
Thankfully, our position in the table is judged at the end of the season, not after the 12 games you?re highlighting (which really should be 8, given that just 2 goals have been conceded in the last 4 games).
So if you want to judge solely on this season, please wait until the end of the season, not just pick on a section of games to bash Moyes with.
Sorry Michael - goals against
Everton; Man City; Newc U. - 20
WBA - 21
Blackbuun R; West Ham - 22
And we had some decent defences back then as well. Just face it, its been a good week for Americans.
Everton; Man City; Newc U. - 20
WBA - 21
Blackbuun R; West Ham - 22
And we had some decent defences back then as well. Just face it, its been a good week for Americans.
Michael,
Okay, Howard’s had a bad start to the season, but he’s kept us in a couple of games recently (Man U, West Ham, for instance).
Forgetting even that, how you manage to then change what is, despite his start to this season, a relatively impressive stat into a criticism of Moyes (for not even being defensive, but his failings at getting his players to defend???) is beyond me. Do you not remember all the clean sheets last season - or the season we finished fourth? Bar the last couple of months, in general, our defence has been excellent since Moyes has been at the helm. And has been the redeeming feature to our often lackluster attacking play.
PS. Blackburn, West Ham and WBA have conceded more goals than us now, isn’t the season judged after 38 games not the first seven or eight, you seem to have stopped at?
Okay, Howard’s had a bad start to the season, but he’s kept us in a couple of games recently (Man U, West Ham, for instance).
Forgetting even that, how you manage to then change what is, despite his start to this season, a relatively impressive stat into a criticism of Moyes (for not even being defensive, but his failings at getting his players to defend???) is beyond me. Do you not remember all the clean sheets last season - or the season we finished fourth? Bar the last couple of months, in general, our defence has been excellent since Moyes has been at the helm. And has been the redeeming feature to our often lackluster attacking play.
PS. Blackburn, West Ham and WBA have conceded more goals than us now, isn’t the season judged after 38 games not the first seven or eight, you seem to have stopped at?
Yea, Bob, I was prepared to give the benefit of the doubt previously but with each passing game, our failings and knowledge of the huge missed opportunity they have cost us are hitting home with greater and greater resonance. If we do finally recover after six months of post-Fiorentina doldrums, the the very real chance to make the final step up has been squandered in the profligacy of those 8 games you mention.
And to my mind it is all down to Moyes. He had nothing to offer after the Fiorentina loss, and it was evident in the very next game. He came close to quitting in the summer, which means he had left the helm unattended and we all know what happened (or more correctly failed to happen) while he pondered his future.
I have no problem waiting until the end of the season to judge the season. But I?ll judge the first quarter of the season after game 10; and I?ll judge the last game now, if it?s all the same to you.
And to my mind it is all down to Moyes. He had nothing to offer after the Fiorentina loss, and it was evident in the very next game. He came close to quitting in the summer, which means he had left the helm unattended and we all know what happened (or more correctly failed to happen) while he pondered his future.
I have no problem waiting until the end of the season to judge the season. But I?ll judge the first quarter of the season after game 10; and I?ll judge the last game now, if it?s all the same to you.
So Michael - a helm unattended while the boss pondered his future. As if he could simply wave the wand which would bring in the new midfield he wanted. Who knows - not me, nor you.
So who else? Big Sam? A new ownership - which many claim is what we need to progress - will bring many changes. How many of them welcome I wonder?
So who else? Big Sam? A new ownership - which many claim is what we need to progress - will bring many changes. How many of them welcome I wonder?
Keith, We were told repeatedly that money was available. (Were they lying???)
We were linked with everyone and their mother, but nothing happened until Deadline Day. Two explanations: (1) Moyes dithering over his contract, hence Kenwright rightly not shelling out on his chosen A-List. Or: (2) Those A-list players to a man turning Moyes down. That doesn?t reflect too well on him either...
And why even give a nanosecond to the thought of another manager??? MOYES IS HERE FOR ANOTHER FIVE FUCKING YEARS!!!
Michael you know that English is not my first language so I want to ask if I understood correct what you have said:
The fact that Tim Howard has the best record of all previous Everton goalkeepers "reflects badly on Moyes and his failings when it comes to getting his players to defend." ?!?
The fact that Tim Howard has the best record of all previous Everton goalkeepers "reflects badly on Moyes and his failings when it comes to getting his players to defend." ?!?
I think you already understand perfectly well what I’m saying but we’ll try it again if you like:
1) Moyes is defensive football personified.
2) Howard has only ever played at Everton under Moyes.
3) Howard’s record would be expected to benefit not just from his own ability as a shot-stopper, but from Moyes’s unparalled genius as a defensive master-tactician. Therefore you would reasonably expect Howard to have a really good record of goals conceded.
Turns out that, with all that going for him, his record is just three goals better than Big Nev’s, who joined Everton not after a number of seasons playing top-flight football for the all-conquering Manchester United, but as a rookie from their near neighbours Bury!!!
I don’t usually bother with such cross-generational comparisons as I think they are really stupid but I admit I am in full-on Moyes bashing mode at the moment and I’ll take any opportunity you throw up to have a good go at him. Peace and love!
1) Moyes is defensive football personified.
2) Howard has only ever played at Everton under Moyes.
3) Howard’s record would be expected to benefit not just from his own ability as a shot-stopper, but from Moyes’s unparalled genius as a defensive master-tactician. Therefore you would reasonably expect Howard to have a really good record of goals conceded.
Turns out that, with all that going for him, his record is just three goals better than Big Nev’s, who joined Everton not after a number of seasons playing top-flight football for the all-conquering Manchester United, but as a rookie from their near neighbours Bury!!!
I don’t usually bother with such cross-generational comparisons as I think they are really stupid but I admit I am in full-on Moyes bashing mode at the moment and I’ll take any opportunity you throw up to have a good go at him. Peace and love!
Here’s a fact: Tim Howard has conceded fewer goals for Everton in his first 100 games than Neville Southall.
Here’s another fact: Neville Southall was the best goalkeeper in the world, Tim Howard isn’t even the best goalkeeper in Liverpool.
Stats mean fuck all and here endeth the arguement.
Here’s another fact: Neville Southall was the best goalkeeper in the world, Tim Howard isn’t even the best goalkeeper in Liverpool.
Stats mean fuck all and here endeth the arguement.
Michael:
And he’s merely 14 goals better than Gordon West, who...erm...won the league in his first season.
I get that you dislike Moyes, and that’s certainly your right. What your original post says is that
(a) Howard only has the best first record over his first 100 games because Moyes is so defensive, and
(b) the fact that he’s only marginally better than Everton’s two most successful goalkeepers of all time is proof that Moyes can’t get his players to defend.
You see the contradiction surely?
You were right in you last post - the stat is meaningless across generations.
There’s been enough reasons to get on Moyes’ back this season to need to resort to meaningless ramblings, and to try to force every single thing into the same argument, throwing all logic out of the window, just turns you into a Marsh or a Dodd. Nobody wants that.
And he’s merely 14 goals better than Gordon West, who...erm...won the league in his first season.
I get that you dislike Moyes, and that’s certainly your right. What your original post says is that
(a) Howard only has the best first record over his first 100 games because Moyes is so defensive, and
(b) the fact that he’s only marginally better than Everton’s two most successful goalkeepers of all time is proof that Moyes can’t get his players to defend.
You see the contradiction surely?
You were right in you last post - the stat is meaningless across generations.
There’s been enough reasons to get on Moyes’ back this season to need to resort to meaningless ramblings, and to try to force every single thing into the same argument, throwing all logic out of the window, just turns you into a Marsh or a Dodd. Nobody wants that.
For me Big Nev was the best that was & the best that will ever be. But to try & compare him & Howard is just ridiculous. In Nev?s time, teams were afraid of us, they were more concerned about not conceding than scoring.
Michael, I?m liking the use of a black font colour for your subsequent comments- it carries much more sense of self than the sometimes imperious blue font you prefer. I?m not saying I agree with your argument - but I see where you?re going with this.........
Let’s remember we weren’t all that great when Nev first came and he was trying to wrestle the green jersey from Jim Arnold (nice one Howard). He was also in goal for the 0-5 Glenn Keeley, Ian Rush Derby disaster.
Michael, with this kind of rhetoric you risk turning TW into a parody of itself (and you somewhat undermine your repeated previous assertions that TW isn?t anti-Moyes). There are valid criticisms to be made of the manager, for sure. But to extrapolate some finger-pointing from that post is pretty silly.
Southall was a world class, all round keeper, Howard is a good shot stopper, and that's it.
Is this the same Howard who was under pressure to be dropped earlier in the season because of his frailty?s against Stoke etc ?? He is nowhere near Southall's standard and stats are rubbish. If you went on goals conceded then the likes of Man Utd and Chelsea would be top of the pile. It's often keepers playing for bottom teams who are the top goalies because they have far more to do. Did you see the saves by Bolton's keeper against Hull.... that's top goalkeeping.
This post is priceless, a fan posts a "Well Done" post to Howard and it end with the usual debate against Moyes?s frailties.
Well I will say, well done Tim, stats don?t mean much and 37.2% of them are made up on the spot but it is still something to be proud of.
Let the Moyes bashing continue...
Well I will say, well done Tim, stats don?t mean much and 37.2% of them are made up on the spot but it is still something to be proud of.
Let the Moyes bashing continue...
Some of the worst distribution in the league. A complete inability to find a blue shirt with a throw or a kick making him unable to start a counter attack. Likes to bounce the ball a few times instead and then punt it towards Osman for the flick on. A wall of silence that leaves the centre backs floundering and making panic clearances. Dog shit. Get rid.
Don’t beat around the bush David, let us know what you really feal about Tim.
It?s bringing a smile to my face reading all of this. Every post comes down to Moyes. Like it or hate it, it?s what being an Evrtonian is all about, a bit of humour. I love you all (apart from Dodd) as MK & Ringo says "Peace & Love" as our pathetic chairman says "watch this Space"
One last thing, isn?t it about time Castillo was given a chance, Rodwell not experienced enough, Osman & Hibbert would fit in well at Sheff Utd.
One last thing, isn?t it about time Castillo was given a chance, Rodwell not experienced enough, Osman & Hibbert would fit in well at Sheff Utd.
Wow!!
A positive post about an excellent achievement and what is the reply?
If some of the great British comedians were to write a parody of a website that wants everything to be turned into an attack then they would have produced this. I love it.
Just to get back to the original post (contrversial I know) but well done Tim Howard. A great achievement from a world class goalkeeper.
A positive post about an excellent achievement and what is the reply?
If some of the great British comedians were to write a parody of a website that wants everything to be turned into an attack then they would have produced this. I love it.
Just to get back to the original post (contrversial I know) but well done Tim Howard. A great achievement from a world class goalkeeper.
I count at least 3 matches we would have lost if it where not for TH. OK, he has his failings but so does every top class player ? it is just more obvious when you're playing in goal. Not a a patch on Big Nev but he was a truly one off, whose like will probably never be seen again.
TH is the best keeper we have had since Big Nev and I for one am happy with him. Anyway we don't have the money to replace him with a truly world class keeper so if anyone has any suggestions as a replacement I would like to hear them. Same goes for DM.
ps: I have followed my beloved Everton for over 25 years now and for basically all of the 90s I was miserable every Monday, at least now I have hope on a Sat morn before the game and something to shout about on a Monday, particulary with the amount of Liverpool and Man Utd fans over here in Dublin, most of whom know SFA about football, which it even more annoying. COYB
So what Michael Kenrick is effecively saying is any goal keeper would have had the best record after 100 games because he has the help of a manager who sets his team out to defend. So Richard Wright would have beat it would he if he had made it to 100 games.
What also makes me laugh Michael is that your criticising Moyes because Howard never beat the record by more. FFS
What also makes me laugh Michael is that your criticising Moyes because Howard never beat the record by more. FFS
Peace and Love ? Are we buying them both in January ?
I think the editor must be sufferring from a heavy dose of PMT...
(Pragmatic Moyes Trauma)
(Pragmatic Moyes Trauma)
I presume Dickey Wright was playing when we got tonked 7-0 by Arsenal.......
Wow, TW gets more surreal all the time ! I put the post in thinking that for once we might actually applaud a player?s achievement.
Instead we get the TW version of "Mornington Crescent". For those of you who have never heard of this game (from a Radio 4 comedy show), it means that basically, wherever you start from on the London Underground station map you always end up back at Mornington Crescent.
In our version, it doesn?t matter what post you write, it always comes back to how poor Moyes and the Team are. Unbelievable!
Instead we get the TW version of "Mornington Crescent". For those of you who have never heard of this game (from a Radio 4 comedy show), it means that basically, wherever you start from on the London Underground station map you always end up back at Mornington Crescent.
In our version, it doesn?t matter what post you write, it always comes back to how poor Moyes and the Team are. Unbelievable!
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