The Mail Bag
Are we really for sale?!
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I have just read an interesting article by Jonny Abrams at the sport.co.uk website about our beloved Chairman, Blue Bill and his attempts to sell Everton. Thought you might like to read it:
Sean Joyce, Posted 23/09/2009 at 19:55:59
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Within the theatre industry he’s known for paying the absolute minimum wages and skimping on production costs to the point of absurdity.
Wow, a very interesting read. He brings to light some points that I have never heard about before. An excellent piece of journalism.
If only we could get some investment like Notts County for example. They have a five year improvement plan and at the end of August signed Sol Campbell on a 5 year deal as the cornerstone of that plan. Oh shit wait.... he has just termintated his contract after a month. However their league position is strong, only slight behind those football powerhouses like Aldershot, Rotherham and Dagenham & Redbridge.
I am sick to death of this comparison of Notts County’s invesment needs being likened to ours. Their entire yearly turnover is probably similar to what we make on shirts alone.
I want somebody to buy us out too, desperately. But if nobody wants to put the kind of money in needed to push us up to title challengers, how can that be the fault of Kenwright? This is the part where I am lost. If he sells the club to someone who doesnt have the finances to compete at the top, what is the point in him selling? He is an Evertonian for fucks sake, he is not going to sell it to someone who is going to make a mess of his club, a la Riley, Gaydamak, Magnusson, Ridsdale, Gibson etc.
And if, as the title of this thread suggests, he is refusing to sell the club, who tried to buy it and was refused? These idiotic posts without any kind of substance are becoming more and more annoying to me. I have tried to keep out of debates recently, as I know that minds cannot be changed now. It just fucking winds me up to read articles from people that suggest BK is deliberately refusing to allow the club to move forward. Its complete bollocks as far as I am concerned.
If only we could get some investment like Notts County for example. They have a five year improvement plan and at the end of August signed Sol Campbell on a 5 year deal as the cornerstone of that plan. Oh shit wait.... he has just termintated his contract after a month. However their league position is strong, only slight behind those football powerhouses like Aldershot, Rotherham and Dagenham & Redbridge.
I am sick to death of this comparison of Notts County’s invesment needs being likened to ours. Their entire yearly turnover is probably similar to what we make on shirts alone.
I want somebody to buy us out too, desperately. But if nobody wants to put the kind of money in needed to push us up to title challengers, how can that be the fault of Kenwright? This is the part where I am lost. If he sells the club to someone who doesnt have the finances to compete at the top, what is the point in him selling? He is an Evertonian for fucks sake, he is not going to sell it to someone who is going to make a mess of his club, a la Riley, Gaydamak, Magnusson, Ridsdale, Gibson etc.
And if, as the title of this thread suggests, he is refusing to sell the club, who tried to buy it and was refused? These idiotic posts without any kind of substance are becoming more and more annoying to me. I have tried to keep out of debates recently, as I know that minds cannot be changed now. It just fucking winds me up to read articles from people that suggest BK is deliberately refusing to allow the club to move forward. Its complete bollocks as far as I am concerned.
This truly is a sad piece of ’journalism’. Nothing at all to add, no new information, just a lot of angry and bitter character assassination. Pathetic. No wonder this guy can’t get a job at a proper newspaper.
What a crock of shit!
Very similar to a piece that might be posted on here ... except for the bit praising Moyes. I like the bit about the boneheaded Evertonians calling Moyes for dithering, though. Never a truer word spoken.
True it is far too negative on this site, but the blinkered backing and praise this compulsive liar recieves is comical.
Please lads just for once rather than stating he is a blue, blah blah blah, admit he has for years took the piss out of us with his endless lies and it is only for Moyes that he has not been ran out of town. And if you disagree then please instead of ignoring it like it never happened explain Fortress, NTL, "Virtually Free" and the other piles of shite he has fed us.
Finally, Dan, from all accounts, below the surface, Everton Football Club is a mess.
Guys, you're like faithful gundogs sat at your master's knee, I have to admire your loyalty in the face of overwhelming evidence, I think this is a perfectly written article describing the situation exactly as I see it.
"Wow, a very interesting read. He brings to light some points that I have never heard about before. An excellent piece of journalism."
Get out more.
This is not journalism. Just reading the first sentence reveals the bile-induced drivel that is to follow. Kenwright has some form of stranglehold on our national media? Oh please fuck off.
Kenwright has faults. Most Evertonians know them. Some feel overall we’re better with him, some feel the exact opposite. It is public knowledge, in fact none other than Bill Kenwright himself revealed it at our EGM, that we have little or no money over & above our normal operating budgets. So transfers are always going to be difficult unless/until we square that circle.
So, just for the avoidance of doubt, this article has as much to do with journalism as Rafael Benitez has to do with common courtesy. It’s a shite-filled, same old same old, dredged up pile of content-free biased bollocks.
But I must say, the idea of ANYONE reading it and thinking "hmm, that’s interesting, I had no idea, wow!, what an inspired piece of journalistic endeavour" makes me piss my pants with laughter... and pity.
Get out more.
This is not journalism. Just reading the first sentence reveals the bile-induced drivel that is to follow. Kenwright has some form of stranglehold on our national media? Oh please fuck off.
Kenwright has faults. Most Evertonians know them. Some feel overall we’re better with him, some feel the exact opposite. It is public knowledge, in fact none other than Bill Kenwright himself revealed it at our EGM, that we have little or no money over & above our normal operating budgets. So transfers are always going to be difficult unless/until we square that circle.
So, just for the avoidance of doubt, this article has as much to do with journalism as Rafael Benitez has to do with common courtesy. It’s a shite-filled, same old same old, dredged up pile of content-free biased bollocks.
But I must say, the idea of ANYONE reading it and thinking "hmm, that’s interesting, I had no idea, wow!, what an inspired piece of journalistic endeavour" makes me piss my pants with laughter... and pity.
You could say this is a character asassination, or your standard ToffeeWeb article. Our ’success’ under Moyes is despite the man, not because of him.
Paul, how were the Fortress Sports Fund and NTL BK’s fault exactly? Were these not two cases of people who agreed to put money in, but pulled out?
I won't dispute that BK has made some errors during his regime. His biggest fuck up has to be the Kings Dock. But the way I see it, the guy has been the Chairman that has overseen a resurgence from relegation fighters to European places for our football club, whether you like it or not. I am sorry if that does not tie in with your ’poisoning the club’ theory.
Bad chairmen are the ones that take their clubs DOWN. Bad chairmen are the ones that spend more than the club can afford, and end up selling players just to pay back loans. I don't see how a chairman that has taken us from the brink of playing in the 2nd tier back to playing European football can be considered as a failure.
I won't dispute that BK has made some errors during his regime. His biggest fuck up has to be the Kings Dock. But the way I see it, the guy has been the Chairman that has overseen a resurgence from relegation fighters to European places for our football club, whether you like it or not. I am sorry if that does not tie in with your ’poisoning the club’ theory.
Bad chairmen are the ones that take their clubs DOWN. Bad chairmen are the ones that spend more than the club can afford, and end up selling players just to pay back loans. I don't see how a chairman that has taken us from the brink of playing in the 2nd tier back to playing European football can be considered as a failure.
Yes, it could have been better. Yes, he has made errors. And yes, there will be people here saying ’it was all Moyes’, but that is complete nonsense. As good a manager as he is, Moyes doesn't broker and finance the deals to bring players in...
If nobody can provide any legitimate evidence that he refuses to sell to someone who is willing to make us into champions, then how can you possibly formulate such scathing hatred based on ficiton? I keep asking who has tried to buy us, and nobody can seem to answer. The only answer we get is ’faithful gundogs’ or how ’naive’ we are. These same people also seem to be the ones to criticise us for supporting the team and manager even when we are playing badly.
Please define ’all accounts from below the surface’ with some factual information please. I am guessing it is all "my mate down the pub who knows a bloke that mows the EFC toilet cleaner's grass" bollocks as always.
Al Kirwin, I guess you missed the heavy dose of patronism in the tone of my post.....
Richard, please! I turned to this article actually hoping that it might tell us something new about e.g. why Kenwright still owns the club, his objectives, perhaps bidders who had been turned away....
What do we get? NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Innuendo about Kenwright’s ’sinister machinations’, but nothing of any substance at all.
Well, apart from the equivalent of ’Gordon Brown gets angry sometimes and even once threw his mobile phone... so he must be a bad PM and he has to go....’.
If there are genuinely new facts or insight about what is going on at our club, I am all ears. But this is lazy, lame and pathetic.
What do we get? NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Innuendo about Kenwright’s ’sinister machinations’, but nothing of any substance at all.
Well, apart from the equivalent of ’Gordon Brown gets angry sometimes and even once threw his mobile phone... so he must be a bad PM and he has to go....’.
If there are genuinely new facts or insight about what is going on at our club, I am all ears. But this is lazy, lame and pathetic.
The article in question is basically a cut and paste job from any one of a number of articles/posts on here. It doesn’t bring anything new to light.
Peter, it actually made me wonder whether it was in fact written by one of our regular anti-Kenwrights on Toffeeweb. It’s basically identical.
Are we for sale?
Of course not...Kenwright’s been very careful not to actually mention the ’S’ word...
Of course not...Kenwright’s been very careful not to actually mention the ’S’ word...
James Cadwaladr summed it up best me thinks!
There may be some who fall for his ’lies and bullshit’, but most of those who recognise the good Kenwright has done also recognise the mistakes he has made. The problem with those who concentrate on the ’fuck ups’ as they call them don’t recognise any of the good he has done. Like appointing Moyes - oh sorry, I forgot, he didn’t, Walter Smith did. Like taking us from perennial relegation fodder to regular European qualifiers - oh sorry, I forgot, Moyes did that despite him. Like getting us an EXTRA £9m for Lescott - oh sorry, I forgot, City were always gonna pay it.
I’ve yet to read a single article criticising Kenwright which is balanced and has substance, and until I do, I’ll continue to form my own opinion thank you very much.
There may be some who fall for his ’lies and bullshit’, but most of those who recognise the good Kenwright has done also recognise the mistakes he has made. The problem with those who concentrate on the ’fuck ups’ as they call them don’t recognise any of the good he has done. Like appointing Moyes - oh sorry, I forgot, he didn’t, Walter Smith did. Like taking us from perennial relegation fodder to regular European qualifiers - oh sorry, I forgot, Moyes did that despite him. Like getting us an EXTRA £9m for Lescott - oh sorry, I forgot, City were always gonna pay it.
I’ve yet to read a single article criticising Kenwright which is balanced and has substance, and until I do, I’ll continue to form my own opinion thank you very much.
Wow, Ross’s press room is full today... Christ lads, take 5 and have a coffee.
Neil Pearse - many of those supporting Kenwright on Toffeeweb actually make me think they work (or worked) for the club, as their views are often ’basically identical’ to the likes of grasping, grinning, hopeless bums like Wyness and Elstone.
Dan, bad chairman sell players to pay off loans! Why do you think Rooney was sold? And that sale was instigated by our chairman months before fat arse went. You can throw the Lescott sale into that too, as selling him prevented us from borrowing more to buy players.
You can bet your bottom dollar he was shitting bricks when Moyes was taking his hardline stance against City as he wanted him sold to bail him and the club out.
As for the Fortress Sports Fund, Dan, it is common knowledge that was all a set-up to get shut of his former pal Gregg and as an investment it was never going to happen.
Credit where due, he picked Moyes and also refused to sack him when we had a bad season, but it has been Moyes who has saved his bacon year-in, year-out, his ability to turn £2M players into £10M — £15M players overnight as eased the pressure on Bill.
And finally below the surface, I mean we are mortgaged to death, we have sold all our assets, our yearly accounts are shite and the annual pre-season debacle should tell you enough in itself. The only man down the pub shout I could use was that Robert Green allegedly said the club is run like a circus or Mr Carter claiming Kirkby is not going to happen as we cannot afford it... do I believe them rumours? I do more than don't and that is because of Bill's previous — he is a liar and that is a FACT.
Alan Kirwin,
Perhaps you should consider further than the first paragraph before letting us all know your opinion... you may have then realised that
Dan Brierley (Ian Ross?) was being sarcastic.
I suppose I can write what I want to you now as you’ll already be frothing at the keyboard busily typing your content-free biased bollocks response. Oh, and change your pants!
Perhaps you should consider further than the first paragraph before letting us all know your opinion... you may have then realised that
Dan Brierley (Ian Ross?) was being sarcastic.
I suppose I can write what I want to you now as you’ll already be frothing at the keyboard busily typing your content-free biased bollocks response. Oh, and change your pants!
A lot of this is the usual rehash of arguments for or against Blue Bill. For what’s worth I’m in the camp that he did a good job in the initial takeover, but his time has long since past.
But for all those that are saying we should sell out to whoever comes along — be VERY careful what you wish for. I live in Nottingham, have very close family connections working in areas that have dealings with Notts County, and financially things are not all sweetness and light.
For our long term future I don’t know what the answers are — but this particular article says nothing that is not already common knowledge.
There is no need to repeat all the bullshit we have been fed over the last few years by BB.
The last two pre-season transfer windows tell us all we need to know about his financial clout, and ability to raise funds.
There is strong evidence however, that no consortium or rich benefactor has shown an intrerest in EFC. That is the circus of Newcastle.
£100 mill was the official asking price.
New stadium, huge merchandising operation, one team city, 50,000 week-in, week-out... They couldn’t give the club away, so maybe we aren’t as attractive a proposition as some on here like to think.
The last two pre-season transfer windows tell us all we need to know about his financial clout, and ability to raise funds.
There is strong evidence however, that no consortium or rich benefactor has shown an intrerest in EFC. That is the circus of Newcastle.
£100 mill was the official asking price.
New stadium, huge merchandising operation, one team city, 50,000 week-in, week-out... They couldn’t give the club away, so maybe we aren’t as attractive a proposition as some on here like to think.
Another bollocks post intended to do nothing but provide a platform for the usual unsubstatiated shit slinging at BK.
Paul Gladwell - "I do more than don't and that is because of Bill's previous, he is a liar and that is a FACT." - Putting FACT after your statements doesn’t add any validity to them, but you are probably right he is a liar, and so are you and so am I and everyone in fact. Most of us have made promises that we cannot (at the time of proclamation) guarantee to be able to deliver. It is an aspiration, a hope, and if it doesn’t come true it doesn’t necessarily make you a liar. You believed you could deliver something and didn’t. You could argue that makes you a failure but a liar? We all know his faults and he loves to make bold claims and empty promises, but deep down I believe he wants to be able to deliver and often believes he can until it all comes to nothing.
There is no doubt that Kenwright has been a muppet on occasion and clearly EFC still have much to learn about how to run a successful football club, but having no money and trying to maintain the challenge at the correct end of the table must be bloody difficult. You're going to have to borrow because you have no cash of your own but know you must improve and spend just to "stand still". This means debts which must then be settled in order for the club to remain solvent. What other club has been able to achieve the consistency of performance on the level of budget that we have now done for 4 to 5 seasons? It’s almost an impossible task, certainly implausible. It can’t all be down to Moyes, can it?
Anyway, as I’ve said before and many have repeated above, these posts have become tiresome mainly for one reason. Most Evertonians have already made their mind up whether they hate, tolerate or respect Mr Kenwright and these posts never change anyone’s mind. There was nothing new in this article, no notable FACTS (it seems it has to be written in capitals these days) and therefore was posted purely as a trigger for all the same people (on both sides) to argue the same tired old points and fail to change each others entrenched view.
I don’t believe that it is so polar. You can’t just pigeon hole people as pro- or anti-BK. Granted, some are most definitely anti as posts like this demonstrate and I’ll agree that there are some who to a certain extent put their heads in the sand about some of Bill’s not-so-finest hours, but not everyone wishes to expend so much energy hating someone based on a lot of rumour, supposition and conjecture.
I’d rather talk about the team at the moment and our resurgence on the pitch. All this BK bashing is depressing. Maybe he is a skint wally, but the evil scheming poisoner that he is portrayed as by some on here I find to be over the top and unnecessary. But hey that’s just my opinion and I’m sure it won’t change anyone’s mind.
Here’s to the continued improvement on the pitch!
Paul Gladwell - "I do more than don't and that is because of Bill's previous, he is a liar and that is a FACT." - Putting FACT after your statements doesn’t add any validity to them, but you are probably right he is a liar, and so are you and so am I and everyone in fact. Most of us have made promises that we cannot (at the time of proclamation) guarantee to be able to deliver. It is an aspiration, a hope, and if it doesn’t come true it doesn’t necessarily make you a liar. You believed you could deliver something and didn’t. You could argue that makes you a failure but a liar? We all know his faults and he loves to make bold claims and empty promises, but deep down I believe he wants to be able to deliver and often believes he can until it all comes to nothing.
There is no doubt that Kenwright has been a muppet on occasion and clearly EFC still have much to learn about how to run a successful football club, but having no money and trying to maintain the challenge at the correct end of the table must be bloody difficult. You're going to have to borrow because you have no cash of your own but know you must improve and spend just to "stand still". This means debts which must then be settled in order for the club to remain solvent. What other club has been able to achieve the consistency of performance on the level of budget that we have now done for 4 to 5 seasons? It’s almost an impossible task, certainly implausible. It can’t all be down to Moyes, can it?
Anyway, as I’ve said before and many have repeated above, these posts have become tiresome mainly for one reason. Most Evertonians have already made their mind up whether they hate, tolerate or respect Mr Kenwright and these posts never change anyone’s mind. There was nothing new in this article, no notable FACTS (it seems it has to be written in capitals these days) and therefore was posted purely as a trigger for all the same people (on both sides) to argue the same tired old points and fail to change each others entrenched view.
I don’t believe that it is so polar. You can’t just pigeon hole people as pro- or anti-BK. Granted, some are most definitely anti as posts like this demonstrate and I’ll agree that there are some who to a certain extent put their heads in the sand about some of Bill’s not-so-finest hours, but not everyone wishes to expend so much energy hating someone based on a lot of rumour, supposition and conjecture.
I’d rather talk about the team at the moment and our resurgence on the pitch. All this BK bashing is depressing. Maybe he is a skint wally, but the evil scheming poisoner that he is portrayed as by some on here I find to be over the top and unnecessary. But hey that’s just my opinion and I’m sure it won’t change anyone’s mind.
Here’s to the continued improvement on the pitch!
In the "exclusive deal“, struck with "Tesco“ is clearly stated that :” the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club.”
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=108&cntnt01returnid=85
All this “24/7” is bullshit, as I always prefer to look at the facts and not the words to make a conclusion, IMO Everton was never put up for sale, as this written binding document proves it.
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=108&cntnt01returnid=85
All this “24/7” is bullshit, as I always prefer to look at the facts and not the words to make a conclusion, IMO Everton was never put up for sale, as this written binding document proves it.
Stepping aside from any mud-slinging and looking purely at facts, the only time Everton FC would be bought is if a multi-millionaire came offering a ridiculous price that the board could not refuse. Period.
Even before the Tescos deal was inked, reasonable offers were put forward to buy the club or a majority shareholding, and all have been turned down.
Even before the Tescos deal was inked, reasonable offers were put forward to buy the club or a majority shareholding, and all have been turned down.
Paul, fair enough. I see your points. Let's discuss in a bit more detail.
1. You state that BK had sold Rooney months before he actually left. Firstly, who exactly in United was he dealing with behind the scenes then? Or is this one those "Oh, I cannot say but I swear it's true" situations? All we know for sure is that EFC offered him the highest ever salary in the history of the football club, which he rejected and promptly submitted a transfer request. Rooney then made a statement about why he wanted to leave, and hoped the Everton fans would understand. I don't know how this ties in with the "he was sold months before" theory.
2. Ah, so BK also sold Lescott months before? I won't even go into that one...
3. So the Fortress Sports Fund was a smokescreen to get rid of Gregg? Could you please explain why the Fortress Sports Fund would make Paul Gregg want to sell up? And why Gregg’s Misses apparently loaned BK £7 million? Again, I am completely lost on that one. I thought it was Robert Earl that bought out Gregg, and not Kenwright.
4. This one is my favourite. How can you sell all your assets, and then get mortgaged to death? Club debt at the last measurment was £39 million, this was the 4th lowest in the Premier League.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/03/english-premier-league-debt
I look forward to your response. Please try and support your ’facts’ with at least a bit of evidence.
1. You state that BK had sold Rooney months before he actually left. Firstly, who exactly in United was he dealing with behind the scenes then? Or is this one those "Oh, I cannot say but I swear it's true" situations? All we know for sure is that EFC offered him the highest ever salary in the history of the football club, which he rejected and promptly submitted a transfer request. Rooney then made a statement about why he wanted to leave, and hoped the Everton fans would understand. I don't know how this ties in with the "he was sold months before" theory.
2. Ah, so BK also sold Lescott months before? I won't even go into that one...
3. So the Fortress Sports Fund was a smokescreen to get rid of Gregg? Could you please explain why the Fortress Sports Fund would make Paul Gregg want to sell up? And why Gregg’s Misses apparently loaned BK £7 million? Again, I am completely lost on that one. I thought it was Robert Earl that bought out Gregg, and not Kenwright.
4. This one is my favourite. How can you sell all your assets, and then get mortgaged to death? Club debt at the last measurment was £39 million, this was the 4th lowest in the Premier League.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/03/english-premier-league-debt
I look forward to your response. Please try and support your ’facts’ with at least a bit of evidence.
Neil McKinney
You’re even resorting to redefining the meaning of a word, now, c.f
Lie
McKinney Dictionary...
1. A promise that cannot (at the time of proclamation) be guaranteef to be able to be delivered.
2. An aspiration, a hope, which, if doesn’t come true, isn’t necessarily a lie.
English Dictionary...
Lie
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Bollocks
1. A definition by Neil McKinney
I know which dictionary I’d use!
You’re even resorting to redefining the meaning of a word, now, c.f
Lie
McKinney Dictionary...
1. A promise that cannot (at the time of proclamation) be guaranteef to be able to be delivered.
2. An aspiration, a hope, which, if doesn’t come true, isn’t necessarily a lie.
English Dictionary...
Lie
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
Bollocks
1. A definition by Neil McKinney
I know which dictionary I’d use!
Dan
I emailed you at your club address last week asking for info about Ramon (Ray) Wilson and any club plans for a tribute event. I’d be grateful for a reply from yourself or one of your staff in the press office.
Cheers
Phil
I emailed you at your club address last week asking for info about Ramon (Ray) Wilson and any club plans for a tribute event. I’d be grateful for a reply from yourself or one of your staff in the press office.
Cheers
Phil
Stefan, if you are going to provide some evidence, why cut out the most relevant part?
"6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club’s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club."
I think it's only fair you print the whole statement, rather than the last sentence.
"6.10 A further point that is of relevance to any debate on the options that might be available to the Club to fund a new stadium, is the willingness and abilities of the Club’s directors to sell some or all of their interests in the Club in order to attract an investor who or which might have the ability in financial terms to fund a new stadium in its entirety or at the very least fund the shortfall that exists in the context of this proposals. As is pointed out in greater detail in the financial statement document 26), this is not an option as the current directors have no intention of selling any of their interests in the Club."
I think it's only fair you print the whole statement, rather than the last sentence.
Phil,
We are sorry to inform you that your post has been mislaid. I was advised that your post was ringfenced, but appears to have not been in the post box in the morning. However, please watch this space for future news, we are working 24/7 to find your letter.
BR
Cuddly Bill
We are sorry to inform you that your post has been mislaid. I was advised that your post was ringfenced, but appears to have not been in the post box in the morning. However, please watch this space for future news, we are working 24/7 to find your letter.
BR
Cuddly Bill
Phil - I am not trying to redefine the word lie, but we have all lied in our time and I honestly believe that Kenwright says most of these "lies" believing he can deliver. Therefore, your dictionary definition IMO does not fit.
"A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood"
That suggests that he KNOWS he cannot deliver, not that he cannot GUARANTEE it will be delivered. I’m not going to get into an argument about semantics, I was just trying to point out that we don’t all just accept the labels that are put on BK by the obvious anti BK posters. If you don’t agree then fine, but if you are going to pick apart my post then you might as well at least tell us what you think about him rather than just being snotty about what I’ve said.
Thing is, whether he is trying to deceive us or not, there is no absolute evidence to back up these claims. Like I said, I’d rather talk about the team anyway as this has all been done before and this article adds no more to it.
"A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood"
That suggests that he KNOWS he cannot deliver, not that he cannot GUARANTEE it will be delivered. I’m not going to get into an argument about semantics, I was just trying to point out that we don’t all just accept the labels that are put on BK by the obvious anti BK posters. If you don’t agree then fine, but if you are going to pick apart my post then you might as well at least tell us what you think about him rather than just being snotty about what I’ve said.
Thing is, whether he is trying to deceive us or not, there is no absolute evidence to back up these claims. Like I said, I’d rather talk about the team anyway as this has all been done before and this article adds no more to it.
Thanks for the prompt reply Ian... typical club admin.
I’ll resend last week’s email; as I’m sure you know, Ray is the oldest surviving member of both ’66 teams and the club needs to be thinking of recognising his ability and service.
I’ll resend last week’s email; as I’m sure you know, Ray is the oldest surviving member of both ’66 teams and the club needs to be thinking of recognising his ability and service.
That was not journalism, that was an opinion piece. There is a difference. For example, you would not find a respected journalist referring to "the dreaded Kirkby Tescodrome". This is a blog piece no different than any piece you can find on this website by the likes of Tony Marsh. You may want to believe those opinions, but they are just that, opinions, and should be held in that regard.
Neil,
I think Bill is an Evertonian, same as you and me. I think he is also an actor, theatre impresario, self-publicist and has lied as Chairman of Everton Football Club.
I think Bill is an Evertonian, same as you and me. I think he is also an actor, theatre impresario, self-publicist and has lied as Chairman of Everton Football Club.
I think (if all goes badly) that he will be remembered for taking Everton to a mid-range, not effectively free stadium on a retail park park on the banks of the Alt
If all goes well, he will be remembered as the man who lost us the chance to have a modern stadium on the banks of the second most famous waterfront in the world.
Funny Funny stuff...
What a site this is!
What a site this is!
Dan I never said we sold Lescott months before or Rooney, I said the Rooney deal was instigated long before he left (Newcastle bid etc). If you can honestly feel that Kenwright wanted these two to stay then that's your opinion but to me it is bullshit, he had to sell them both and made them both look the bad guys big time...
As to where I get my info from, ’the man in the pub’ etc probably the same source as the people who said to you Gregg's Mrs lent Bill £7M.
As to where I get my info from, ’the man in the pub’ etc probably the same source as the people who said to you Gregg's Mrs lent Bill £7M.
I dont work for Everton Football Club so how can I bring you solid evidence? But certain things are common knowledge, maybe these things are not all right, but the way you spout your 'bed of roses' shite, it appears you have closer links than me and many more blues for that matter. I have supported Everton long enough to know such rose-tinted views are garbage.
Phil - Fair play. That is a moderate way of saying that you don’t trust the guy and feel let down by his administration. I much prefer that to the over the top vitriol and the portrayal of BK as some sort of twisted evil plotter greedily siphoning of cash or setting himself up for a big pay day. I just don’t see it.
When presented with a camera in his face or a microphone is thrust in front of him, he often gets carried away and before you know it he’s come out with one of his gems and promised the world, but like you say he’s an Evertonian and gets caught up in the romance a lot of the time.
I have never challenged the accusation of BK being rubbish at the business of running the club, and I have always known he was skint, but — even with those huge flaws — we have still progressed as a club during his tenure, in spite of him or otherwise, so I struggle to adopt this fierce hatred of him that some have.
I accept however that yours appears to be a more tempered view and I respect your opinion.
When presented with a camera in his face or a microphone is thrust in front of him, he often gets carried away and before you know it he’s come out with one of his gems and promised the world, but like you say he’s an Evertonian and gets caught up in the romance a lot of the time.
I have never challenged the accusation of BK being rubbish at the business of running the club, and I have always known he was skint, but — even with those huge flaws — we have still progressed as a club during his tenure, in spite of him or otherwise, so I struggle to adopt this fierce hatred of him that some have.
I accept however that yours appears to be a more tempered view and I respect your opinion.
Thanks Neil. I think a lot of us on here are guilty of patrolling our corners, point-scoring and getting into cat ’n dog fights. When that happens, we forget why we’re on the site — we’re Evertonians, and we care about the club, its heritage and its future. It’s only right we should take a breath and reflect on that, now and again.
Eugene, since you were I assume ignorantly referring to me as following the Wyness / Elstone line ... Can you show me where either of them have said:
Kenwright needs to sell up because he does not have the financial resources to own this club;
Wyness was a bad mistake;
The commercial side of the club has been a disaster (although some signs of improvement);
Our PR is mostly baffling rubbish (e.g. why on earth say we will get in players before the end of the transfer window when we know we won’t?);
We should have been trying as first priority to get a groundshare rather than build our own new ground....
etc. etc..
I have said (and here repeat) all these things. Got your references to Wyness and Elstone?
And as Neil McK points out above, that’s the difference. The so-called ’positives’ (maybe Doddy apart) regularly criticise aspects of Kenwright and the running of the club. The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever (the give-away being the hilarious way Walter Smith of all people gets the credit for Moyes!). It’s like arguing with people who believe in Creationism.
Kenwright needs to sell up because he does not have the financial resources to own this club;
Wyness was a bad mistake;
The commercial side of the club has been a disaster (although some signs of improvement);
Our PR is mostly baffling rubbish (e.g. why on earth say we will get in players before the end of the transfer window when we know we won’t?);
We should have been trying as first priority to get a groundshare rather than build our own new ground....
etc. etc..
I have said (and here repeat) all these things. Got your references to Wyness and Elstone?
And as Neil McK points out above, that’s the difference. The so-called ’positives’ (maybe Doddy apart) regularly criticise aspects of Kenwright and the running of the club. The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever (the give-away being the hilarious way Walter Smith of all people gets the credit for Moyes!). It’s like arguing with people who believe in Creationism.
And in case it’s not clear what I think about many of Kenwright’s pronouncements, again I am fully with fellow Neil above: at least 50% of what he says is unhelpful nonsense and it would be best for the club if he kept his mouth shut.
The divide in these arguments is not over whether Kenwright has run the club superbly or even ’very well’. No-one believes that (apart maybe from Doddy...).
It is whether Kenwright is - as shoddily hinted at in the original article that started this thread - an evil machiavellian genius manipulating the club for his own financial self interest.
I don’t buy it, because I don’t see the slightest evidence for it.
The divide in these arguments is not over whether Kenwright has run the club superbly or even ’very well’. No-one believes that (apart maybe from Doddy...).
It is whether Kenwright is - as shoddily hinted at in the original article that started this thread - an evil machiavellian genius manipulating the club for his own financial self interest.
I don’t buy it, because I don’t see the slightest evidence for it.
Neil, why don’t you show me the post — any post from anyone — that says ’I think Kenwright is an evil machiavellian genius’.
I’ve certainly never used the term — I always say he’s a PROVEN, shifty, bullshitting cunt and therefore I’m prepared to believe nothing he says and always expect the worst (same as I would with anyone who constantly let me down and made promises he/she didn’t keep).
You also state "The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever".
Well.... DURR!! I think you’ll find that’s just how making your point works
I mean when the ’Yorkshire Ripper’ was being tried, the prosecutor didn’t say "He is an insane violent murdering psychopath loon... but by all accounts a very good truck driver, VERY punctual".
It’s just... not how the world works, even (or maybe particularly) in debate.
Actually, it’s kind of the debate form of survival of the fittest — something (you being a Darwin man), I’d have expected you to be all for.
Please don’t respond with "Oh so now you’re comparing the Ripper to Kenwright!!?"
No — just used him to make a point. (Besides, I think he eventually came clean!)
I’ve certainly never used the term — I always say he’s a PROVEN, shifty, bullshitting cunt and therefore I’m prepared to believe nothing he says and always expect the worst (same as I would with anyone who constantly let me down and made promises he/she didn’t keep).
You also state "The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever".
Well.... DURR!! I think you’ll find that’s just how making your point works
I mean when the ’Yorkshire Ripper’ was being tried, the prosecutor didn’t say "He is an insane violent murdering psychopath loon... but by all accounts a very good truck driver, VERY punctual".
It’s just... not how the world works, even (or maybe particularly) in debate.
Actually, it’s kind of the debate form of survival of the fittest — something (you being a Darwin man), I’d have expected you to be all for.
Please don’t respond with "Oh so now you’re comparing the Ripper to Kenwright!!?"
No — just used him to make a point. (Besides, I think he eventually came clean!)
Eugene - You made the accusation against me, and you haven’t been able to back it up apart from saying (so far as I can understand your meanderings): the way argument works is that two sides take up polarised and extreme positions. Certainly true in your case!
I was trying to suggest in discussing Kenwright (not Hitler, or the Ripper) that we might proceed in a more balanced and evidence based manner. I take it from your post that you would rather continue to rave like a madman. I won’t be joining you.
I was trying to suggest in discussing Kenwright (not Hitler, or the Ripper) that we might proceed in a more balanced and evidence based manner. I take it from your post that you would rather continue to rave like a madman. I won’t be joining you.
It is common knowledge that there are aliens held in Area 51, Roswell, New Mexico.
It is common knowledge that a giant monster lives at the bottom of Loch Ness.
Just because something is ’common knowledge’ doesn’t make it true. It is just as bad as writing FACT after you put forward an opinion.
As for BK, he has never said he is trying to sell the club; he wants investors, and let's be honest it doesn’t serve KEIOC to make him look bad (do I need to point out the sarcasm?).
It is common knowledge that a giant monster lives at the bottom of Loch Ness.
Just because something is ’common knowledge’ doesn’t make it true. It is just as bad as writing FACT after you put forward an opinion.
As for BK, he has never said he is trying to sell the club; he wants investors, and let's be honest it doesn’t serve KEIOC to make him look bad (do I need to point out the sarcasm?).
When BK came in, he took a risk on a young, inexperienced manager — something that no rich arab would do. He steadied the ship financially — compared to most football clubs our debts are going up relatively slowly, if at all.
He has made the decision not to spend money we don’t have; in the current climate that is probably wise. He is trying to get a new stadium, good, in Kirkby — the worst decision ever made; he tries to make things sound better than they really are — possibly with good intentions, but in reality not appreciated by us.
Kings Dock was infuriating; Lescott was a good deal; between him and DM, they get quality players to accept low wages and be happy about it; he does some good stuff and he does some bad stuff.
He makes mistakes... but he has not brought our club to the verge of bankruptcy (unlike those across the park), nor has he turned us into a Championship-level club. At the moment we are one of the best financially controlled clubs in the country and one of the best footballing clubs in the country.
I don’t like the way our summers are going because the 6 points we have lost (not counting the Arsenal game) could prove to be vital come the end of the season — and this team should not lose to the likes of Burnley and Fulham. No rights to victory just a higher level of quality in the team.
I blame the board for failing to get the players in — not DM; he just says who he wants and the money men thrash out the deal.
So do I hate BK? No. Am I grateful for what he has done for Everton so far? Yes. Do I want him to stay? No. Do I want to go to Kirkby? Heck no!
I find it baffling that some people can still argue that Kenwright has been a success. Moyes has been the success and has took a lot of attention away from Kenwright's lies and fuck-ups.
Do you Kenwright boys take into consideration that we have spent fuck all this summer and last summer? Fellaini was paid for by the sale of Johnson and McFadden. What will be the pricks excuse be when we sell Rodwell?
But you can all come on and say "hey he’s an Evertonian, he got rid of Johnson, he was at Wembley singing along to Z-Cars... blah blah blah..."
Watch how quick he finds an investor when he moves us to Kirkby. That's right Kirkby, remember... the Virtually Free 50,000-seater stadium with one of the best transport infrastructures in the country, which we can hold concerts in?
Oh that's right... it was more spin and fucking lies.
Eugene - if you want to know what a post looks like that adds more than wild ravings to the debate, look at Steve immediately above. I don’t agree with 100% of it, but overall I think it is a pretty fair and balanced view of Kenwright. Probably the majority view, apart from the fanatics at both extremes.
The importance of this is not so that we can ’be nice to Kenwright’ or ’support Kenwright’ (I assume a man in his position can look after himself). The importance is that if we don’t have a clear and reasonably accurate view of where our club is now, how on earth can we make any progress in working out where we should go?
The importance of this is not so that we can ’be nice to Kenwright’ or ’support Kenwright’ (I assume a man in his position can look after himself). The importance is that if we don’t have a clear and reasonably accurate view of where our club is now, how on earth can we make any progress in working out where we should go?
Eugene, Wayne Rooney is a fat ugly lying traitorous twat, but he is a hell of a footballer.
See it’s easy, and it makes your argument better if you accept that there are positives but that, in your opinion, the negatives are more prominent.
Andy, would you rather he put the club into administration buy spending more money than we have?
Have you ever tried to get planning permission for anything. Sometimes the council look at your plans and say "you can’t do that". Your 'lies about Kirkby' argument stinks in that all Bill did wrong was tell us of the plans before they were approved; you would have preferred him to ’take the Fifth’ as they say in the US until it was all set in stone? Or would the "we have a right to know" argument have surfaced?
See it’s easy, and it makes your argument better if you accept that there are positives but that, in your opinion, the negatives are more prominent.
Andy, would you rather he put the club into administration buy spending more money than we have?
Have you ever tried to get planning permission for anything. Sometimes the council look at your plans and say "you can’t do that". Your 'lies about Kirkby' argument stinks in that all Bill did wrong was tell us of the plans before they were approved; you would have preferred him to ’take the Fifth’ as they say in the US until it was all set in stone? Or would the "we have a right to know" argument have surfaced?
As someone who has on occasion posted both positive and negative Kenwright points, can someone explain to me the following:
Why does Moyes stick with Bill year-in, year-out if he is constantly lied to and is fucked around all the time? If our success is entirely down to Moyes and not Kenwright then why hasn’t Davey gone somewhere else where he will have been able to spend money to his heart's content? i.e. Newcastle or Sunderland? Why hasn’t he shipped out to Celtic?
I don’t have the answers just wanted someone to explain this to me please.
Why does Moyes stick with Bill year-in, year-out if he is constantly lied to and is fucked around all the time? If our success is entirely down to Moyes and not Kenwright then why hasn’t Davey gone somewhere else where he will have been able to spend money to his heart's content? i.e. Newcastle or Sunderland? Why hasn’t he shipped out to Celtic?
I don’t have the answers just wanted someone to explain this to me please.
Steve,
You’re confusing me now. I presume you are against our going to Kirkby?
Are you trying to say the lies in the pre-ballot brochure and the lies told by the club which misled fans to vote as they did, were not lies but, rather, "things-to-be-wished-for" — if we get permision for them?
You’re confusing me now. I presume you are against our going to Kirkby?
Are you trying to say the lies in the pre-ballot brochure and the lies told by the club which misled fans to vote as they did, were not lies but, rather, "things-to-be-wished-for" — if we get permision for them?
After all the bullshit we have had to put up with from BK over the years, I still can’t believe that we have fans who still defend the man to the hilt.
The man is a compulsive liar.
The man is a compulsive liar.
Chris Leyland, I think Davey Moyes came perilously close to that during the Summer of 2008, when he was seriously reconsidering his future at Everton. In his words, it was what Sir Bobby Robson said about commitment that caused him to reconsider and decide to stay (although the decent money in his new contract may have been a factor!).
I got the impression in his earlier years with Everton that Moyes relished the challenge of fighting with the big boys on a small/none-existent [delete as appropriate] budget. But in the last couple of years he has become disheartened to some extent as he started to believe thet mantra that the lack of money really would prevent him from succeeding.
Where he is now, I have no idea. I believe he is fully committed to the terms of his contract (four years) but eventually I think the ultimate futility of it may get to him before the end of that period.
I got the impression in his earlier years with Everton that Moyes relished the challenge of fighting with the big boys on a small/none-existent [delete as appropriate] budget. But in the last couple of years he has become disheartened to some extent as he started to believe thet mantra that the lack of money really would prevent him from succeeding.
Where he is now, I have no idea. I believe he is fully committed to the terms of his contract (four years) but eventually I think the ultimate futility of it may get to him before the end of that period.
Let me try this taking into account people's positive points.
Let's take Peter Johnson, he was a cheating kopite who sold Duncan Ferguson.
His positive points are he won us the FA Cup, he built us the Park End and he he set up the much envied football academy that has since found us Rooney, Jeffers, Ball, Rodwell, Vaughan, Anichebe etc... Fuck me, I can see where your coming from, Neil.
Let's take Peter Johnson, he was a cheating kopite who sold Duncan Ferguson.
His positive points are he won us the FA Cup, he built us the Park End and he he set up the much envied football academy that has since found us Rooney, Jeffers, Ball, Rodwell, Vaughan, Anichebe etc... Fuck me, I can see where your coming from, Neil.
Phil, I did not believe the brochure. I believe the Kirkby stadium to be for certain the lowest cost new stadium we will get, but not "virtually free" —- that’s silly. I think Wyness was an idiot to put it this way because it actually undermined his case because it wasn’t credible.
I think in this case "virtually free" would count as a lie, because it is KNOWINGLY (that’s important) stating an untruth. He should just have stuck to saying that, at least in terms of cost, it was a bargain (almost certainly true).
Also not all ’lies’ are bad. Saying "We won’t sell Rooney for even £50M", or "We simply will not sell Lescott" — both clear lies. Fine by me, as they got us more money. Probably the truth on Lescott is that we would have sold for £20M. Do you think we should have told City that?
Many of Kenwright’s statements are hard to judge. Take the most celebrated one: "The Kings Dock money is ring-fenced". It is possible that Kenwright believed this to be true (in the sense that he would almost certainly be able to find the money). More importantly though, this can be seen as rather like the Lescott statement. Kenwright wants to stay in the Kings Dock deal; he knows that doubts are surfacing about our ability to come up with the funds; so he makes his statement to reassure and buy some time. A dreadful lie? Not obviously. Maybe he would have found the money, and then this statement would have helped us.
Some people on here seem to take an extreme position on so-called ’lying’ which amounts to: (a) a lie is whenever someone says something which does not turn out to be true; (b) it is always bad and to be condemned.
I cannot believe for a moment that you follow this code in your own lives. Nobody does, so why hold Kenwright to it? There are far more shades of grey in life than this.
I think in this case "virtually free" would count as a lie, because it is KNOWINGLY (that’s important) stating an untruth. He should just have stuck to saying that, at least in terms of cost, it was a bargain (almost certainly true).
Also not all ’lies’ are bad. Saying "We won’t sell Rooney for even £50M", or "We simply will not sell Lescott" — both clear lies. Fine by me, as they got us more money. Probably the truth on Lescott is that we would have sold for £20M. Do you think we should have told City that?
Many of Kenwright’s statements are hard to judge. Take the most celebrated one: "The Kings Dock money is ring-fenced". It is possible that Kenwright believed this to be true (in the sense that he would almost certainly be able to find the money). More importantly though, this can be seen as rather like the Lescott statement. Kenwright wants to stay in the Kings Dock deal; he knows that doubts are surfacing about our ability to come up with the funds; so he makes his statement to reassure and buy some time. A dreadful lie? Not obviously. Maybe he would have found the money, and then this statement would have helped us.
Some people on here seem to take an extreme position on so-called ’lying’ which amounts to: (a) a lie is whenever someone says something which does not turn out to be true; (b) it is always bad and to be condemned.
I cannot believe for a moment that you follow this code in your own lives. Nobody does, so why hold Kenwright to it? There are far more shades of grey in life than this.
Good to see you are being converted to reason at last Richard. I have never said that Peter Johnson was evil, and as with most people I’m sure he had some positives along with the negatives, just as you say.
Now that you’ve had a warm-up attempt at Peter Johnson - would you like to tell us all Richard what you think the positives are about Kenwright?
Now that you’ve had a warm-up attempt at Peter Johnson - would you like to tell us all Richard what you think the positives are about Kenwright?
Neil, a question for you: how much money, as a return on his total investment, did Peter Johnson make out Everton FC Co Ltd?
I really don’t know Michael. Happy to be told though!
Come on, you’re a smart lad with your finger on the pulse... how much? I can’t believe you don’t have even a rough figure in mind...
In the far off days when I had hair on my head and some faith in even the most desperate of causes... World Peace, a Beatles Reunion the business ability of the Everton Board and so on, early Saturday evenings featured TV variety programmes which occasionally presented performing seals.
For younger readers, the seals would sit on little platforms in a semi-circle around their master. At a shouted command, they would perform various little tricks such as balancing a ball on their noses. They would then clap their little flippers. The master would reward them by throwing a small fish into their gaping mouths.
Curious to find the act has been resurrected on the pages of Mailbag, with one major alteration: Mr Kenwright has no need to shout a word of command to his apologists, nor do they expect the reward of a small fish (thus saving their master those extra important pennies) before they honk their hooters, clap their flippers and deliver a dozen more feats of balancing opinions on their noses, flicking them in the air, and proclaiming them as facts.
It may be that God is Kenwright's representative in Heaven; Moyes might be able to walk over the river to Wallasey... and it could be that Osman will one day be hotly pursued by Barcelona. Could those of us who doubt these things, however, have less of the sixth form arrogance and personal sneers, I wonder? Or is the genuine seeking of truth one trick the master has yet to teach them?
On Moyes potentially leaving, I think you’ve got it about right Michael in terms of Moyes’s waverings.
But I think Chris’s point was a bit different. Namely: why would Moyes stay all these years if his boss was (I quote from recent posts) "a compulsive lying shifty bullshitting cunt who keeps fucking up"?
It’s easy to see that he will eventually leave when it is clear that he will never get the money to take Everton to the heights. But why hasn’t he left already if Kenwright is such an immoral untrustworthy man? It’s not as if he can’t get another job.
But I think Chris’s point was a bit different. Namely: why would Moyes stay all these years if his boss was (I quote from recent posts) "a compulsive lying shifty bullshitting cunt who keeps fucking up"?
It’s easy to see that he will eventually leave when it is clear that he will never get the money to take Everton to the heights. But why hasn’t he left already if Kenwright is such an immoral untrustworthy man? It’s not as if he can’t get another job.
Eh! Pearsey!...who’s talkin’ to you? I was talkin’ to Pughy!
(though, shame about those Batman searchlights)
(though, shame about those Batman searchlights)
Michael, i really don’t know. Believe it or not, in the Peter Johnson days I did not blog endlessly about the financial affairs of the football club. (Happy days indeed!)
Just tell me where you are going with this, Michael (although I think I can guess).
I assume Johnson made a decent return on of his shares, but nothing like Kenwright will make. This is simply because the football business in England, a lot of it through Sky, has become a lot more lucrative since PJ’s days, and Kenwright has (lucky for him) ridden that wave. And also of course because Everton are a lot more successful than some clubs (some credit to him), and so won’t need to go in for a fire sale a la Newcastle.
Just tell me where you are going with this, Michael (although I think I can guess).
I assume Johnson made a decent return on of his shares, but nothing like Kenwright will make. This is simply because the football business in England, a lot of it through Sky, has become a lot more lucrative since PJ’s days, and Kenwright has (lucky for him) ridden that wave. And also of course because Everton are a lot more successful than some clubs (some credit to him), and so won’t need to go in for a fire sale a la Newcastle.
Crossed lines Phil! Still, makes a better debate, no, when we all pitch in?
Granted, Neil.
You have to see the funny side in these posts sometimes; it gets quite Pythonesque - we’ve had Hitler, Yorkshire Ripper, sixth-form mass debating, Loch Ness monster, performing seals...
You have to see the funny side in these posts sometimes; it gets quite Pythonesque - we’ve had Hitler, Yorkshire Ripper, sixth-form mass debating, Loch Ness monster, performing seals...
Steve Pugh - What Rooney is like as a footballer is genuinely of no interest to me. Once he had proved himself (happy to use your description) a ’fat ugly lying traitorous twat’, that was it.
For me, his ability is of no relevance so..end of story (for me). If you, or anyone else, wants to want to analyse Wayne further? Absolutely fine but..not me.
So as you can gather (and as I suggested earlier), for me, most argument is a ’this or that’ thing. Sure there might be greys as well as blacks an whites, but if there is a great big looming black/white, that’s generally what the debate/argument will boil down to...
So to be clear, once (or ten times) I’ve been lied to by someone, that’s it — they are a bullshitter, i don’t trust them.
(nb: and I don’t give a flying shite if they used to pull the head over Davey Hickson in the boys pen — still a liar).
Neil Pearse — No real idea what you’re on about? In one sentence I am guilty of ’meanderings’... in very next, I’m taking up ’polarised and extreme positions’... (or maybe you think it’s possible to meander in a really direct, to-the-point way?)
You say "the importance is that if we don’t have a clear and reasonably accurate view of where our club is now, how on earth can we make any progress in working out where we should go?"
No — wrong! It’s NOT the importance, not to me it isn’t.
The ’importance’ for me, is that we have somebody in charge who has been proved (per-oooooved!!) to be full of shite and we have people prepared to say "yeah I know that but...."
As long as that situation is happening, I’ll Know EXACTLY what the problem is and won’t need to engage myself in a myriad of side arguments to get there.
For me, his ability is of no relevance so..end of story (for me). If you, or anyone else, wants to want to analyse Wayne further? Absolutely fine but..not me.
So as you can gather (and as I suggested earlier), for me, most argument is a ’this or that’ thing. Sure there might be greys as well as blacks an whites, but if there is a great big looming black/white, that’s generally what the debate/argument will boil down to...
So to be clear, once (or ten times) I’ve been lied to by someone, that’s it — they are a bullshitter, i don’t trust them.
(nb: and I don’t give a flying shite if they used to pull the head over Davey Hickson in the boys pen — still a liar).
Neil Pearse — No real idea what you’re on about? In one sentence I am guilty of ’meanderings’... in very next, I’m taking up ’polarised and extreme positions’... (or maybe you think it’s possible to meander in a really direct, to-the-point way?)
You say "the importance is that if we don’t have a clear and reasonably accurate view of where our club is now, how on earth can we make any progress in working out where we should go?"
No — wrong! It’s NOT the importance, not to me it isn’t.
The ’importance’ for me, is that we have somebody in charge who has been proved (per-oooooved!!) to be full of shite and we have people prepared to say "yeah I know that but...."
As long as that situation is happening, I’ll Know EXACTLY what the problem is and won’t need to engage myself in a myriad of side arguments to get there.
Fine Eugene, we see it differently. You think Kenwright is SO dreadfully bad, that it would be misleading and irrelevant to say anything positive about him, and the only important thing now is that he leaves the club.
I just don’t see him as THAT bad (although I hope very much for a good new owner). I think he has made a lot of mistakes and often makes himself sound like a fool — but I just can’t see what he has done that is so dreadfully immoral. I don’t agree with you that he has been "proved" to be full of shite (unless making exaggerated statements as part of public negotations counts as that). So I am not saying "yeah I know that but..". We see it differently.
I just don’t see him as THAT bad (although I hope very much for a good new owner). I think he has made a lot of mistakes and often makes himself sound like a fool — but I just can’t see what he has done that is so dreadfully immoral. I don’t agree with you that he has been "proved" to be full of shite (unless making exaggerated statements as part of public negotations counts as that). So I am not saying "yeah I know that but..". We see it differently.
Neil you say..
"You think Kenwright is SO dreadfully bad, that it would be misleading and irrelevant to say anything positive about him, and the only important thing now is that he leaves the club"
Well, I don’t know about misleading, but for me, DEFINITELY irrelevant (see Ripper!).
"You think Kenwright is SO dreadfully bad, that it would be misleading and irrelevant to say anything positive about him, and the only important thing now is that he leaves the club"
Well, I don’t know about misleading, but for me, DEFINITELY irrelevant (see Ripper!).
Thought of another positive on Johnson Neil an area which I think your master is sadly lacking, he told it straight, When Johnson was selling he said "I’m selling the club I want £20 million".
Can you tell me what Kenwright told the shareholder who asked him that question at the Shareholders Forum?
Can you tell me in general what Kenwright's stance is on selling the club?
Oh, by the way... Kenwright appointed Moyes and stood by him when he was going through a rough patch (quite fuckin right too).
Can you tell me what Kenwright told the shareholder who asked him that question at the Shareholders Forum?
Can you tell me in general what Kenwright's stance is on selling the club?
Oh, by the way... Kenwright appointed Moyes and stood by him when he was going through a rough patch (quite fuckin right too).
Neil Pearse,
As polarized as Eugene is in his opinion on our glorious leader, Bill, (which he’s perfectly entitled to be) you’re sweeping statements about "The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever" have too be worse in terms of having a constructive debate.
Regardless as to whether you partially/wholeheartedly disagree with his, the author of the original letter or anyone else’s contribution perhaps you should heed your own words "makes a better debate, no, when we all pitch in?" rather than labouring on and on.
As polarized as Eugene is in his opinion on our glorious leader, Bill, (which he’s perfectly entitled to be) you’re sweeping statements about "The so-called negatives will not concede that Kenwright has ever done anything positive whatsoever" have too be worse in terms of having a constructive debate.
Regardless as to whether you partially/wholeheartedly disagree with his, the author of the original letter or anyone else’s contribution perhaps you should heed your own words "makes a better debate, no, when we all pitch in?" rather than labouring on and on.
True Chad, I get caught up in the debate too much and should stop labouring on and on as you say. So this is my last for today.
Richard, as you well know Kenwright is not "my master" (I think he should sell up), and so I’ve no more information on most of your questions than you have. I assume he will sell to someone who offers a decent price and who he doesn’t think is likely to wreck the club. You?
Not sure of the context of PJ’s £20M comment, but more likely to be some sort of negotiating ploy rather than the boy scout morality you are praising him for. Johnson wasn’t exactly known for being a soft negotiator and giving his money away. (Nothing wrong with that.)
"Telling things straight" when negotiating deals may be admirable in some abstract moral sense, but is usually stupid. And of course is almost unheard of (don’t try it the next time you buy a car or a house).
Anyway, thank God we didn’t follow your advice with Lescott, or we’d probably have lost £5M or so. But, hey, Kenwright wouldn’t have ’lied’, so we could all feel better about it, wouldn’t we?
And Kenwright would have been an amazing fool if he’d told a Shareholders Forum how much a prospective bidder needed to pay him for his shares. Even he’s not that crazy.
Mike Ashley has been ’straight’ about his £100M asking price not because he is morally upright, but because he’s frantically signalling that he will virtually give the club away. Fortunately for all of us Evertonians, your friend Mr Kenwright hasn’t got us into anything like that condition yet.
Richard, as you well know Kenwright is not "my master" (I think he should sell up), and so I’ve no more information on most of your questions than you have. I assume he will sell to someone who offers a decent price and who he doesn’t think is likely to wreck the club. You?
Not sure of the context of PJ’s £20M comment, but more likely to be some sort of negotiating ploy rather than the boy scout morality you are praising him for. Johnson wasn’t exactly known for being a soft negotiator and giving his money away. (Nothing wrong with that.)
"Telling things straight" when negotiating deals may be admirable in some abstract moral sense, but is usually stupid. And of course is almost unheard of (don’t try it the next time you buy a car or a house).
Anyway, thank God we didn’t follow your advice with Lescott, or we’d probably have lost £5M or so. But, hey, Kenwright wouldn’t have ’lied’, so we could all feel better about it, wouldn’t we?
And Kenwright would have been an amazing fool if he’d told a Shareholders Forum how much a prospective bidder needed to pay him for his shares. Even he’s not that crazy.
Mike Ashley has been ’straight’ about his £100M asking price not because he is morally upright, but because he’s frantically signalling that he will virtually give the club away. Fortunately for all of us Evertonians, your friend Mr Kenwright hasn’t got us into anything like that condition yet.
Wow, Neil... I think you've been listening to Elstone for advice on spin, when did I advise than I merely predicted the situation whilst I think you were believing the club line that he was going nowhere? My point was that we had to sell to buy and what annoyed me was that we left it so fucking late.
As for the condition of our club, I believe it is in a dogs dinner of a state and believe me, Neil, if we go to Kirkby, Newcastle United will be nothing to the state we’ll end up in.
As for the condition of our club, I believe it is in a dogs dinner of a state and believe me, Neil, if we go to Kirkby, Newcastle United will be nothing to the state we’ll end up in.
Phil, yes I am against Kirkby and will remain that way unless they prove me wrong and it does elevate Everton to the proverbial next level.
I think I get frustrated with some of the arguments people use on here to try and make a point. Although I’m probably just as bad.
However, I don’t think that all of the statements were lies. I believe that, in the original planning application, Everton requested to use the ground for concerts, that request was turned down by Knowsley Council. What they did was they told the fans everything that they had put in those original plans, almost certainly to make the proposition as appealing as possible. But that isn’t lying, at worst it is manipulating the truth to the best advantage. If they had carried on claiming it after the plans were rejected, then that would have been lying.
Where they did lie was to claim there were no alternatives, that was a blatant out and out lie, as pretty much everyone could see.
I think I get frustrated with some of the arguments people use on here to try and make a point. Although I’m probably just as bad.
However, I don’t think that all of the statements were lies. I believe that, in the original planning application, Everton requested to use the ground for concerts, that request was turned down by Knowsley Council. What they did was they told the fans everything that they had put in those original plans, almost certainly to make the proposition as appealing as possible. But that isn’t lying, at worst it is manipulating the truth to the best advantage. If they had carried on claiming it after the plans were rejected, then that would have been lying.
Where they did lie was to claim there were no alternatives, that was a blatant out and out lie, as pretty much everyone could see.
Richard, Eugene and others so scandalously outraged by Kenwright: what on earth would you guys find to say if we had owners like THESE??
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/24/liverpool-owners-loans
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/sep/24/liverpool-owners-loans
I don’t care about them, Neil, I’m only bothered about Everton. They will always come up smelling of roses, what Kenwright has done with us, either by selfish financial motivation or by getting backed into a corner financially, is unforgivable and I do not share your view that 'moving to Kirkby to get rid of him' is a reason to go there.
Even if you were convinced before, now that there’s no transport plan, no proof of funding, it's not effectively free. Neil, we're paying £78million for a £78million shed — there will be no revenue from concerts etc and now to add to it there will be a cap of 40,000 on spectators less than we have now all your credible arguments are gone Neil.
Dan Brierley - an apology clearly in order old chap & gladly rendered. Read your first para & clouded the issue. Oh no, surely not again, was my first thought. That will teach me. It would appear we’re of similar mind on such nonsense.
As for Chad Schofield — unclear quite where you stand on this (because, oddly, you don’t refer to the article in any shape or form), but your haste to slag me off, when quite clearly I’d misread Dan’s piece and, by implication, broadly agreed with him, makes your post even more useless than mine. At least it was clear what my opinion was. Do you have one? I think your stone needs you back.
As for Chad Schofield — unclear quite where you stand on this (because, oddly, you don’t refer to the article in any shape or form), but your haste to slag me off, when quite clearly I’d misread Dan’s piece and, by implication, broadly agreed with him, makes your post even more useless than mine. At least it was clear what my opinion was. Do you have one? I think your stone needs you back.
Neil, you are wasting your breath with such open & balamced endeavours. You could add Mike Ashley to that. Or the cowboys who took over West Ham (I recall vividly my many West Ham chums regaling thoughts of Champions League & big signings.
Obviously that could never happen at Goodison. No... we’d only ever accept investment or a takeover from an individual or organisation of the highest propriety and liquidity, with bottomless pockets and only the very best interests of our great club in mind.
In fact, those were almost the very words & musings of a certain Mr David Moores of Merseyside, just before selling his majority stake in Liverpool FC to Statler & Waldorf. My oh my, what a fantastic reception they received, wearing their red scarves over their corporate outfits and saying all the right things.
You'd think that the people who just want Kenwright out would have given some thought to who or what they want in. I have. I’d love us to become the first membership owned club in the UK. I don’t want a billionaire and anyway, that will be a non-issue in 3 years’ time when clubs have to pay their own way if they want to play in Europe.
Obviously that could never happen at Goodison. No... we’d only ever accept investment or a takeover from an individual or organisation of the highest propriety and liquidity, with bottomless pockets and only the very best interests of our great club in mind.
In fact, those were almost the very words & musings of a certain Mr David Moores of Merseyside, just before selling his majority stake in Liverpool FC to Statler & Waldorf. My oh my, what a fantastic reception they received, wearing their red scarves over their corporate outfits and saying all the right things.
You'd think that the people who just want Kenwright out would have given some thought to who or what they want in. I have. I’d love us to become the first membership owned club in the UK. I don’t want a billionaire and anyway, that will be a non-issue in 3 years’ time when clubs have to pay their own way if they want to play in Europe.
Thank god, sanity awaits us on the horizon. Thank you Michel Platini. You may be a slimey, jealous, anti-English, froggy twat to some. But to others you are the solution to the nonsense that we currently endure.
If the only defence of BK that can be mustered is - he is not x, y, z — then you don’t have an argument.
Now list his achievements, not David Moyes's achievements, Bill's. If you can’t make a list of the positive changes that he has made to the club, then shut your keyboards.
Now list his achievements, not David Moyes's achievements, Bill's. If you can’t make a list of the positive changes that he has made to the club, then shut your keyboards.
I would say ’best of the rest’ for the past five years. But you would say: 100% Moyes. So what’s the point David? You’ve made your mind up already.
By the way, I would give Moyes substantially more credit for this achievement than Kenwright. I just wouldn’t give Kenwright 0% credit. That’s the bit I don’t get.
I think it is utterly absurd to say that there is this organisation which has perfomed above its resources for more than half a decade - despite its very active owner and Chairman (who is in fact a selfish lying untrustworthy charlatan). I work with different organisations every day of my life, and I have never seen such a thing, nor can imagine ever seeing it. It’s simply not credible.
I’ve also never understood this idea that we can look at the health of our club without looking at our competitor clubs. If I said that comparing, say, Saha with Torres was utterly irrelevant ("Me, I only care about Saha!!"), or it was stupid to compare the performance of David Moyes with that of Ferguson or Redknapp - well, you’d think I was a bit of an idiot. And you would be right.
By the way, I would give Moyes substantially more credit for this achievement than Kenwright. I just wouldn’t give Kenwright 0% credit. That’s the bit I don’t get.
I think it is utterly absurd to say that there is this organisation which has perfomed above its resources for more than half a decade - despite its very active owner and Chairman (who is in fact a selfish lying untrustworthy charlatan). I work with different organisations every day of my life, and I have never seen such a thing, nor can imagine ever seeing it. It’s simply not credible.
I’ve also never understood this idea that we can look at the health of our club without looking at our competitor clubs. If I said that comparing, say, Saha with Torres was utterly irrelevant ("Me, I only care about Saha!!"), or it was stupid to compare the performance of David Moyes with that of Ferguson or Redknapp - well, you’d think I was a bit of an idiot. And you would be right.
I suppose, Neil, it depends on who you consider your competitors. If it's the top four, then we are failing to keep up; if it's the top ten, we are failing to keep up. We are failing on finance and infrastructure if not the playing side with the latter group and on all counts with the former.
The club has to sell to buy, has not resolved the stadium issue, and crucially has a smaller turnover in comparison to our debts than our competitors.
The board's job has been to be fund and plan the club's future. Bill has not done this our competitors have done this for the past five years.
As for that second paragraph, are you a club stooge? Many organisations do a good job in spite of their poor leadership... how do I know this? I worked in a council department. Also think of Robert Maxwell and Conrad Black — they were very active chairmen who were crooks and charlatans.
Neil, your mind is made up, but it is the mind of a fantasist, so maybe I should take no notice.
The club has to sell to buy, has not resolved the stadium issue, and crucially has a smaller turnover in comparison to our debts than our competitors.
The board's job has been to be fund and plan the club's future. Bill has not done this our competitors have done this for the past five years.
As for that second paragraph, are you a club stooge? Many organisations do a good job in spite of their poor leadership... how do I know this? I worked in a council department. Also think of Robert Maxwell and Conrad Black — they were very active chairmen who were crooks and charlatans.
Neil, your mind is made up, but it is the mind of a fantasist, so maybe I should take no notice.
Alan,
The reason that I did not serve up my thoughts is that I’ve been reading this thread with interest. Not because this is a subject which has not come up before, or because I am bereft of my own thoughts on the matter, but simply because I am interested in other Evertonians’ opinions (however polarized or otherwise) on the matter... hence why I spend probably a bit too much tome on this site.
Fortunately you managed not to completely spend yourself on your response to my hasty personal attack, and having told us how pointless it was of Niel to request a more balanced view point from those on the more negative side of the Bill fence (where I would put myself), you then go on to add some interesting points.
Niel further on asks David O’Keefe why he should bother listing Bill Kenwright’s achievements as he feels David has already made his mind up. Which is precisely why I picked you out initially, because you had made your mind up having read the first paragraph of an article, before then going on to berate someone because you’d only read the first paragraph of their response. You didn’t misread Dan’s response, you simply responded without bothering to read it in full... which is why I crawled out.
I appreciate how at times debating certain topics may seem a little like banging you’re head against a brick wall and that if you frequent internet forums you can often end up reading what seems like the same paraphrased opinions from either side. But perhaps you should sit back rather than simply dismissing people’s opinions from the off, otherwise it’s tantamount to watching 5 minutes of the match before writing a match report on how great/shit/indifferent we are.
Oh, and Niel, at least with PIKs we would have had the transparency of knowing what we were expected to pay, and albeit 100% over five years, who knows how many pounds of Everton flesh Bill will be serving up to his benefactors?
The reason that I did not serve up my thoughts is that I’ve been reading this thread with interest. Not because this is a subject which has not come up before, or because I am bereft of my own thoughts on the matter, but simply because I am interested in other Evertonians’ opinions (however polarized or otherwise) on the matter... hence why I spend probably a bit too much tome on this site.
Fortunately you managed not to completely spend yourself on your response to my hasty personal attack, and having told us how pointless it was of Niel to request a more balanced view point from those on the more negative side of the Bill fence (where I would put myself), you then go on to add some interesting points.
Niel further on asks David O’Keefe why he should bother listing Bill Kenwright’s achievements as he feels David has already made his mind up. Which is precisely why I picked you out initially, because you had made your mind up having read the first paragraph of an article, before then going on to berate someone because you’d only read the first paragraph of their response. You didn’t misread Dan’s response, you simply responded without bothering to read it in full... which is why I crawled out.
I appreciate how at times debating certain topics may seem a little like banging you’re head against a brick wall and that if you frequent internet forums you can often end up reading what seems like the same paraphrased opinions from either side. But perhaps you should sit back rather than simply dismissing people’s opinions from the off, otherwise it’s tantamount to watching 5 minutes of the match before writing a match report on how great/shit/indifferent we are.
Oh, and Niel, at least with PIKs we would have had the transparency of knowing what we were expected to pay, and albeit 100% over five years, who knows how many pounds of Everton flesh Bill will be serving up to his benefactors?
Thanks for the side swipe idiot remark, Neil, I wouldn’t worry too much about the state of Liverpool’s finances — we’ll be leaving them to a city of 650,000, they’ll be fine, whilst we enjoy all the benefits this town of 40,000 on the outskirts can bring us. Only an idiot would believe in this business model for our long term future.
"If the only defence of BK that can be mustered is - he is not x, y, z — then you don’t have an argument."
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Why not? You suggesting we just dispense with Kenwright and leave a vacuum of ownership and shares? Content please, not drivel.
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"Now list his achievements, not David Moyes’s achievements, Bill’s. If you can’t make a list of the positive changes that he has made to the club, then shut your keyboards."
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Who the hell are you? Did someone make you a prefect on here without telling the rest of us? Add some content next time, or shut your own fucking keyboard you arrogant knob.
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Why not? You suggesting we just dispense with Kenwright and leave a vacuum of ownership and shares? Content please, not drivel.
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"Now list his achievements, not David Moyes’s achievements, Bill’s. If you can’t make a list of the positive changes that he has made to the club, then shut your keyboards."
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Who the hell are you? Did someone make you a prefect on here without telling the rest of us? Add some content next time, or shut your own fucking keyboard you arrogant knob.
Steve Pugh - excellent posts sir. Almost too insightful and realistic for this place. Well done. As Julius Caesar once said, I came, I saw, I concurred.
David O’Keefe: I actually agree with you that we are falling behind the top 5. I believe that there are much deeper and longer-term reasons for this than simply ascribed to Kenwright’s tenure. I don’t agree we are falling behind all of the rest of the top 10 (Newcastle, Portsmouth and West Ham once in that group — they define ’falling behind’). But you know I basically agree with you that we are not rich. We are just not completely screwed up either.
Black and Maxwell’s organisations both went into considerable disarray as a result of their ownership and management, so you rather prove my point. You might think we are heading there with Kenwright — but it certainly hasn’t happened yet.
On Kirkby, Richard, I didn’t know that people outside the 40,000 inhabitants weren’t allowed to go to our future games. Obviously missed that one. Agree then that we will have a major problem. Blow for me as I travel all the way from London.
By the way, Liverpool are in a much riskier condition than you think. They need to qualify for the Champions League again to avoid severe financial problems. Watch for panic in January if they are not near the top.
Chad, sorry, but your comment about PIKs is ridiculous. Borrowing money at such extortionate rates is a sign of utter desperation and is pissing away the chance to compete with the remainder of the Big Four. Our borrowings are both more modest and at much better rates. If you have evidence that Kenwright is illegally siphoning off our club’s money to his friends, I suggest you provide it. Or otherwise stop talking such nonsense.
Black and Maxwell’s organisations both went into considerable disarray as a result of their ownership and management, so you rather prove my point. You might think we are heading there with Kenwright — but it certainly hasn’t happened yet.
On Kirkby, Richard, I didn’t know that people outside the 40,000 inhabitants weren’t allowed to go to our future games. Obviously missed that one. Agree then that we will have a major problem. Blow for me as I travel all the way from London.
By the way, Liverpool are in a much riskier condition than you think. They need to qualify for the Champions League again to avoid severe financial problems. Watch for panic in January if they are not near the top.
Chad, sorry, but your comment about PIKs is ridiculous. Borrowing money at such extortionate rates is a sign of utter desperation and is pissing away the chance to compete with the remainder of the Big Four. Our borrowings are both more modest and at much better rates. If you have evidence that Kenwright is illegally siphoning off our club’s money to his friends, I suggest you provide it. Or otherwise stop talking such nonsense.
By the way, Richard, I have asked you this before, but since it is clear that you are so against the Kirkby business model, do you have other any positive suggestions of what business model the club might practically adopt at this point?
As you know, I am not exactly thrilled by Kirkby either. So could you tell me what alternative you think we should go for and how we might afford it?
As you know, I am not exactly thrilled by Kirkby either. So could you tell me what alternative you think we should go for and how we might afford it?
Richard,Just a word of warning — do not respond to Neil as this will be in contravenetion of the exclusivity agreement you signed with 99p Stores Ltd. Breaking this agrrement will cost you 30p
I answered at the time Neil and gave you the link to the KEIOC presentation about redevelopment or the loop site. I'll provide it again if you like?
Neil,
So you think that Everton having a loan agreement with Rothschild and Merrill Lynch would be worse than Kenwright’s cronies who presumably have their own agendas? Even though you know nothing of the nature of these deals and further accuse me out rightly of saying Kenwright’s "illegally siphoning off our club’s money to his friends"?!!!
Really?
So Payment In Kind from established, world renowned finance houses = bad... borrowing from Bill’s rich buddies (PIK no?) = fine?
I mean don’t most rich people just love giving money away?
So you think that Everton having a loan agreement with Rothschild and Merrill Lynch would be worse than Kenwright’s cronies who presumably have their own agendas? Even though you know nothing of the nature of these deals and further accuse me out rightly of saying Kenwright’s "illegally siphoning off our club’s money to his friends"?!!!
Really?
So Payment In Kind from established, world renowned finance houses = bad... borrowing from Bill’s rich buddies (PIK no?) = fine?
I mean don’t most rich people just love giving money away?
Please send again Richard. Does this say how we are going to afford it as well? I can’t wait.
Chad, you strongly implied that the club was paying money to Bill’s friends. If not, what do you mean by "serving up pounds of flesh to his benefactors"? Your further implication is that we may be HIGHER rates of interest to Bill’s friends than if we took out a PIK.
I apologise if I’ve got this wrong, so please explain to me what you think is happening. If you don’t in fact think that the club’s money is going (illegally or not) to Bill’s friends, I’m not sure what you are saying. So what the hell are you saying?
Chad, you strongly implied that the club was paying money to Bill’s friends. If not, what do you mean by "serving up pounds of flesh to his benefactors"? Your further implication is that we may be HIGHER rates of interest to Bill’s friends than if we took out a PIK.
I apologise if I’ve got this wrong, so please explain to me what you think is happening. If you don’t in fact think that the club’s money is going (illegally or not) to Bill’s friends, I’m not sure what you are saying. So what the hell are you saying?
Very mature, Mr Kirwan... touch a nerve did I?
Dan Brierley said: 3. So the Fortress Sports Fund was a smokescreen to get rid of Gregg? Could you please explain why the Fortress Sports Fund would make Paul Gregg want to sell up?
Well firstly, if you think back, Paul Gregg had also claimed to have put a consortium together who were looking to take over and this was Kenwright’s "even better" version.
I was at the AGM where Samuelson was unveiled and spoke to Paul Gregg immediately after. He was not a happy man — he had never seen Samuelson before that day, and there was most certainly no exclusivity agreement in place as he would have had to sign it and he hadn’t.
A senior member of EFC’s communications department (who I won’t name as he’ll threaten to sue me — he’s like that) also confirmed via e.mail at a later date that the whole Fortress situation had been "a means to an end" — it was the final straw for Paul Gregg and who can blame him ?
Well firstly, if you think back, Paul Gregg had also claimed to have put a consortium together who were looking to take over and this was Kenwright’s "even better" version.
I was at the AGM where Samuelson was unveiled and spoke to Paul Gregg immediately after. He was not a happy man — he had never seen Samuelson before that day, and there was most certainly no exclusivity agreement in place as he would have had to sign it and he hadn’t.
A senior member of EFC’s communications department (who I won’t name as he’ll threaten to sue me — he’s like that) also confirmed via e.mail at a later date that the whole Fortress situation had been "a means to an end" — it was the final straw for Paul Gregg and who can blame him ?
David O’Keefe, regarding your comment about Everton falling behind the rest of the top 10 Premier League teams... I found this list of the top 20 Premier League teams, based on the number of points won:
Man Utd 1319,
Arsenal 1164,
Chelsea 1098,
Liverpool 1095,
Villa 877,
Newcastle 872,
Spurs 834,
Blackburn 805,
Everton 800,
Leeds 692,
West Ham 645,
Boro 601,
Southampton 587,
Man City 507,
Bolton 413,
Coventry 409,
Sheff Wed 392,
Wimbledon 391,
Charlton 361,
Leicester 342.
So of the top 10 teams we are falling behind Newcastle? Blackburn? Leeds? I’ll pass judgement on the Villa and Spurs at the end of the season, but based on the last 2 seasons we are definitely ahead.
Now before you say that I am looking at the past, the top 10 teams in the Premier League is such a woolly term it can’t be substantiated. The teams occupying these positions are constantly changing, this list gives a longer term view.
Bit scary that outside of the top ten only 3 teams are still in the Premier League.
Man Utd 1319,
Arsenal 1164,
Chelsea 1098,
Liverpool 1095,
Villa 877,
Newcastle 872,
Spurs 834,
Blackburn 805,
Everton 800,
Leeds 692,
West Ham 645,
Boro 601,
Southampton 587,
Man City 507,
Bolton 413,
Coventry 409,
Sheff Wed 392,
Wimbledon 391,
Charlton 361,
Leicester 342.
So of the top 10 teams we are falling behind Newcastle? Blackburn? Leeds? I’ll pass judgement on the Villa and Spurs at the end of the season, but based on the last 2 seasons we are definitely ahead.
Now before you say that I am looking at the past, the top 10 teams in the Premier League is such a woolly term it can’t be substantiated. The teams occupying these positions are constantly changing, this list gives a longer term view.
Bit scary that outside of the top ten only 3 teams are still in the Premier League.
Wow, just read all this and my head is spinning!
On the subject of whether BK is a liar or untruthful on a regular basis, I have to say that over the years I have sadly come to the conclusion that he is.
I think the "I’ll reveal everything at 5pm on Friday" quote at the height of his struggles with Paul Gregg in Summer '04 set me wondering as that day and time came and went with nothing said.
Soon after we had the Fortress Sports Fund episode, which only somebody as gullible as could possibly be would now believe to be anything other than a well-constructed charade to buy time while he ousted Gregg.
And you know what, sometimes it’s the smallest things that tell the biggest secrets. The compelling evidence that the Club’s hierarchy think we fans are totally stupid was Wyness’s assertion that 1000 fans would CYCLE to the match at Kirkby.
On the subject of whether BK is a liar or untruthful on a regular basis, I have to say that over the years I have sadly come to the conclusion that he is.
I think the "I’ll reveal everything at 5pm on Friday" quote at the height of his struggles with Paul Gregg in Summer '04 set me wondering as that day and time came and went with nothing said.
Soon after we had the Fortress Sports Fund episode, which only somebody as gullible as could possibly be would now believe to be anything other than a well-constructed charade to buy time while he ousted Gregg.
And you know what, sometimes it’s the smallest things that tell the biggest secrets. The compelling evidence that the Club’s hierarchy think we fans are totally stupid was Wyness’s assertion that 1000 fans would CYCLE to the match at Kirkby.
Utter nonsense, and if he believed it then clearly the Board have no clue whatsoever. Clearly though, they expected us to swallow it and frankly that shows contempt for us. Not far off the Freddie Shepherd and Douglas Hall ’all Geordie girls are slappers and they are mugs buying all them shirts’ when you think about it.
From that moment, I have not trusted a single word that BK or any other official at Goodison has said. How can you, really? I suspect that one day we will find out the Spurs mafia have been puppeting BK for pay off in Kirkby, but we’ll see. One thing is for sure, it would not surprise me.
Neil,
Actually I implied that Bill had borrowed money using less orthodox finance channels — his friends. Presumably these friends will have requested some kind of return for their help — they are businessmen after all.
It is highly unlikely that we have paid these debts off, but also as these are not loans from finance house or banks there could be more tied than simply interest on the loan. If you look on wiki for the definition of a PIK it explains this.
I have no evidence of what we/Bill owes his friends, or how loans have been structured. Obviously I do not wish to be slanderous, but others have implied that perhaps Bill is not behind the club’s dedication to Desperation Kirkby and that he is being manoeuvred there because of people in the background. Again, I have nothing to substantiate this... but I am not implying that anything illegal is happening.
I would always question why a business would offer you money. The men that Bill has allegedly jumped into bed with (and by that I am not inferring any bum action, Neil!) would have presumably had their own agendas and would have been looking for some kind of return. As I am am not privy to how the loan was set up, how can I say whether the interest would be higher than from other routes? Given the definition of a Payment In Kind, then this sounds like what may have been arranged with his friends — but I do not know this. Perhaps you do Neil, I don’t know.
Oh and apologies for the very slow response — I have considered writing an article, but to be honest I don’t really want to land myself in the shit, and frankly your tone slightly concerns me.
Actually I implied that Bill had borrowed money using less orthodox finance channels — his friends. Presumably these friends will have requested some kind of return for their help — they are businessmen after all.
It is highly unlikely that we have paid these debts off, but also as these are not loans from finance house or banks there could be more tied than simply interest on the loan. If you look on wiki for the definition of a PIK it explains this.
I have no evidence of what we/Bill owes his friends, or how loans have been structured. Obviously I do not wish to be slanderous, but others have implied that perhaps Bill is not behind the club’s dedication to Desperation Kirkby and that he is being manoeuvred there because of people in the background. Again, I have nothing to substantiate this... but I am not implying that anything illegal is happening.
I would always question why a business would offer you money. The men that Bill has allegedly jumped into bed with (and by that I am not inferring any bum action, Neil!) would have presumably had their own agendas and would have been looking for some kind of return. As I am am not privy to how the loan was set up, how can I say whether the interest would be higher than from other routes? Given the definition of a Payment In Kind, then this sounds like what may have been arranged with his friends — but I do not know this. Perhaps you do Neil, I don’t know.
Oh and apologies for the very slow response — I have considered writing an article, but to be honest I don’t really want to land myself in the shit, and frankly your tone slightly concerns me.
Very interesting comments, Chad. I’d always assumed Bill had come up with his £7M portion of the True Blue Holdings investment in Everton (£20M) himself... but mortgaging his house would get.. what? £1M or £2M at most.
Seems there may be enough out there now to construct a better picture of how the club was bought from Peter Johnson, and with whose money. It’s always intruiged me that Jay Harris is convinced the TBH "investment" went straight into the club books as a loan (as with Man Utd’s and Liverpool’s owners more recently). Yet it the Gregg family involvement seemed real enough, and their shares were apparently sold to Earl for around £9M if I recall.
The idea that Bill is somehow beholden to Sir Phillip Green for the lion’s share of his original £7M has some merit... and would help explain the involvement of this ’silent director’ in the shadows for so many years. Does it extend to control on how the money is repaid, and from what source? I guess it would if Green is looking to maximise his return on investment, as any good businessman would.
Perhaps this provides a better financial model than the one some of us have claimed that sees Bill wanting to gain a big wedge when he finally sells Everton. If in fact it is Sir Phillip Green who is driving the yacht, then it could perhaps expain the bind Bill is in, and the need he has to deliver Destination Kirkby so that Green gets his payoff.
Neil, would that be more paletable to you?
Seems there may be enough out there now to construct a better picture of how the club was bought from Peter Johnson, and with whose money. It’s always intruiged me that Jay Harris is convinced the TBH "investment" went straight into the club books as a loan (as with Man Utd’s and Liverpool’s owners more recently). Yet it the Gregg family involvement seemed real enough, and their shares were apparently sold to Earl for around £9M if I recall.
The idea that Bill is somehow beholden to Sir Phillip Green for the lion’s share of his original £7M has some merit... and would help explain the involvement of this ’silent director’ in the shadows for so many years. Does it extend to control on how the money is repaid, and from what source? I guess it would if Green is looking to maximise his return on investment, as any good businessman would.
Perhaps this provides a better financial model than the one some of us have claimed that sees Bill wanting to gain a big wedge when he finally sells Everton. If in fact it is Sir Phillip Green who is driving the yacht, then it could perhaps expain the bind Bill is in, and the need he has to deliver Destination Kirkby so that Green gets his payoff.
Neil, would that be more paletable to you?
Furthermore Michael, as other credit streams dried up, there could have been further "help" from Green or others - I mean you’d have had to consider most things having been seeking investment 24/7 for all this time right?! The problem is that it is of course all supposition... I can’t imagine Neil adding any more to this, as A) This is now slightly buried but B) He seems to have a tendency to look past anything that he doesn’t want to answer.
It would be interesting to hear Jay’s views (or from people who have more facts to hand), otherwise again there’s nothing based on hard evidence.
It would be interesting to hear Jay’s views (or from people who have more facts to hand), otherwise again there’s nothing based on hard evidence.
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1 Posted 24/09/2009 at 05:24:07
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Describes him perfectly.