The Mail Bag
I Sold Us Down The River?
Comments (51)
I thought it only fair to try and reply en masse to those Evertonians out there who appear to believe that my admission to having voted Yes to Destination Kirkby is an admission to some sort of crime... Could this be that now, with the ever helpful hand of hindsight, I admit that, as things stand, I would change my mind?
At the time of the vote, I believed that everything on offer would be nothing but good for the club and in voting Yes I had the best interests of the club at heart. Time has moved on and it would appear that the stadium (should it be built) will not be "World Class". It would also appear that it may not have "the best transportation links in the country"
And, at today's prices, an extra £10 million in revenue would only seem to go to whoever we will be lending the £80 - £100 million off for our "virtually free" stadium.
Like a lot of people who post on ToffeeWeb, I too am amazed that the vote went through — especially as it would seem I was the only person who voted Yes!
So my question — because there is one — Is Who else voted Yes? Will you admit it? ... Are you that ashamed? Let's face it, it's looking highly unlikely that it's going to happen anyway...
I have posted replies to several articles of late and it would seem that any of the points I am either disagreeing or agreeing with have managed to fall by the wayside simply because I have admitted to voting Yes. Does this really give my opinions less credence say than somebody who for the past 3 season at least has posted that, in his opinion, we would be relegated or be fighting relegation at best?
Terry Maddock, Posted 09/07/2009 at 06:36:51
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Q) Would I vote yes today?
A) Probably not.
Q) Would I still go if the Stadium was built in Kirkby?
A) Definately Yes
Q) If I keep asking myself questions can I be sectioned
A) 1947.
Terry, you’re always entitled to your opinion, no matter how you voted, and I think some of your recent observations have carried a touch of dignity and class that others seem powerless to achieve.
The extra £10 million in revenue is what the OS claimed would be the benefit from the stadium in gate receipts.
The "same old bullshit from back then" is myself actually listing the reasons (which now appear to have been proven to not exist) why I voted yes at the time...
Once again apologies if that's not clear.
No matter how many of us begged, pleaded and swore at you not to do it, no matter how many times you where told is was a con job and the figures were misleading, no matter how many experts exposed the club's lies, YOU just wouldn't have it, mate. You went ahead and voted YES. Now live with it.
If the pathetic shambolic ground move to Kirkby ever did come off then you would be partly responsible for our decline as a football club.
Yesterday you were telling anyone who would listen how good our future looked even with DK looming on the horizon, DK that you wanted, DK that you voted for, the DK that could eventually ruin us.
You ask if your points of view are less valid because you made the mistake of a YES vote, well I say they are less valid simply because you are easily fooled, gullible and naive. How can anyone take what you say seriously?
I wouldn't trust you to open a tin of beans, let alone give me any advice on football matters.
Your problem is that you believed the OS in the first place....and you’re still doing it. Is that clear enough?
Live with your ignorance and don’t try to curry support to ease your own conscience. Which I think is what this post is all about. As far as an apology is concerned, you can shove it mate! Live with the shame and consequences of what you have achieved.NSNO.
However, some of the comments above are crazy. Tony "you would listen to more clued-up Everton supporters regarding the matter of moving to Kirkby. No matter how many of us begged, pleaded and swore at you not to do it, no matter how many times you where told it was a con job and the figures were misleading, no matter how many experts exposed the club's lies, YOU just wouldn't have it mate. You went ahead and voted YES. Now live with it."
So let me get this straight, I take it you are an expert on all matters Everton? You are always right? If we had listened to you, Moyes would have been sacked years ago and where would we be now?
I would not base my decision on what I read on ToffeeWeb so to throw this out as an attack is a bit of a joke. There were also an equal amount of fans and "experts" saying how great it was. Why should Terry or anyone else for that matter listen to a few fans who in your opinion are more clued up? I think you have a cheek to suggest just because a person voted Yes they are some sort of lesser Evertonian. Should this not be worthy of a yellow card?
Terry believed the hype and now regrets it; so do I guess a lot of people. Hindsight is a great thing. All we can do is hope this never happens. Terry, I applaud your honesty.
Dave Lynch... When the Kirkby deal was struck, myself, Tony, Ciaran (sorry mate, I don’t know how to do a fother, or spell it for that matter) and many others, tried to debate on what I would call an intelligent if passionate manner.
From what I remember, you treated our points with ridicule, sarcasm and more than a hint of arrogance.
I think you will find that many Evertonians were actually threatened with violence by some of you "more intelligent and passionate No Brigade"....
I will say it now... if the club could have delivered what it said, I would vote Yes again. As it happens, I was misled.
It may well be that should we still eventually go to Kirkby, the club will still progress; sadly, I doubt this. If all the problems with transport, financing and the limited use of the stadium are all upheld, then I can't see it being built anyway.
I have to laugh though at being described as "partly responsible for the decline of our club". If that's true, my continued support of David Moyes must make me partly responsible for our recent (by our standards of the last 20 years) success... so thanks very much!
I don't for one minute think I am an expert on al things Everton but I did vote No to DK. My conscience is clear on that score at least. As for sacking Moyes a few seasons back, who didn't want him gone after Bucharest, Bolton, Shrewsbury etc?????
The sad thing about all this is the falling out amongst fellow Blues. Still at least you’ve attempted a rational debate and admiited you think you may have been wrong unlike Tony Marsh who is always right and continually castigates us mere mortals for our stupidity in matters Moyes, Osman, Hibbert, BK, DK etc etc.
Would that life were so black and white as Mr Marsh would have it, trouble is most of us can see the shades of gray in between.
I don’t feel the need to suck up to you or any other No voter now, nor frankly do I care about being insulted as a result of my vote. I will continue to state my opinion from time to time as I feel the need, if people think it is worthless, so be it.
I dream of seeing Everton find the funds and the will to build a super stadium on Scotland Rd. I’m not joking, it really would be a dream come true... but if half our fans saw it as their worst nightmare and were desperate to avoid it, I wouldn't never vote for it.
I would opt for unity every time; I couldn't live with the fact that I was betraying fellow blues. Some of these guys didn't just vote for it, these pages were littered with people actually gloating and telling people to "move on" and "get over it".
Tony Marsh isn't seeing things in black and white, he is recalling and understanding the complexities and the bitter divisions this fucken nightmare caused.
Tery Maddock, fair play to you lad. Terry Leahy has pulled the wool over the eyes of cleverer people than you — and me. You’ve said your piece, you can't beat yourself up forever over something you once thought was right.
Look forward to your next post.
Ultimately, we ALL love the club, ALL want it to grow, and ALL want success. Wouldn’t it be much more constructive to find a way of getting the club to address the debate head on? We need to send the club a clear message that the previous ’Yes’ vote should not stand, that we need a new vote.
I’m not professing to have the solution to this and how to make this happen, but I’m convinced there are enough brains amongst the Evertonians viewing this website to come up with some good ideas.
Perhaps the all-knowing Tony Marsh might have some ideas????
Yes, we need a new stadium. I think it was Ciaran who made the valid point that Champions League football alone would not provide the finance we need. Qualifying for the Champions League is not what makes the Sky Four what they are. Frankly, we need 15,000 extra supporters and a new Goodison Park, or a rich benefactor.
Right now I would throw the Kirkby idea down the Khazi and go back to square on and start from scratch. At least then I wouldn't be blamed as the man who took Everton FC away from the people to some poorly thought-out retail park.
Howard, Dave this is my point; I hate what this has done to the fan base. Blues at each others throats. All we can do is hope this shambolic idea gets dropped.
If it does not and we move, it will not change a single thing for me; I will still buy a season ticket. After all, Everton is all that matters here — the club we all love.
Oh and Tony, for the record, I did not want Moyes out and never have. At times I have been annoyed, don't get me wrong, but I have always thought he would come good. If only he got the backing from the board and our "beloved Blue Bill" ... but that is a whole different debate.
Let’s get one thing straight. I have NEVER even considered threatening violence upon anyone over anything connected with the Kirkby debate. I take great offence in your statement suggesting that I did.
Yes, I was passionate, but never to the point of violence. The fact that you suggest I did, just proves to me the futility of your post in trying to curry favour to ease your conscience.
The great sadness, however, is that club management are still determined to push this through. After all the debates, after the embarrassment the club and its advisors suffered at the inquiry, after the knowledge the management must have regarding opinion change, they are still determined to push ahead. That is the real shame.
I never accused you of threatening anybody with violence... But my son was threatened less than 5 yds from the turnstiles on Goodison Road for ripping off a KEIOC sticker that was placed on him by some thug... and he was not the only one.
And I'm not trying to apologise or "ease my conscience". My regret in voting Yes is that I now realise that I will not be getting what I voted Yes for... my point was, simply because somebody lied to me and I believed it does not mean that my opinion on anything else Everton related is worthless. FFS.. don't you people actually read what's written?
People are taking the moral high ground, yet the last time I looked we were still playing at Goodison Park... and with all that has come out in the last 3 years, I believe we will still be at Goodison for at least another 10.
I merely made two points:-
1) Just because Terry may or may not have got it wrong on one issue, it’s plain daft to suggest, as did Tony Marsh, that he has no other valid opinions.
2) In Marshworld there are no valid opinions other than Tony’s and all who disagree will be subjected to the full fury of Der MarshenFuhrer. No calm debate will be tolerated.
How does the saying go? You've made your bed, so lie in it, because the damage has been already done.
Firstly, ’intelligence’ CAN actually be overrated. As Woody Allen said to Diane Keaton in Manhattan... "Your first husband was a genius AND your second? You should meet some stupid people - you might learn something".
I actually think most people lack imagination, but understandably, very few (if any) would admit to it. It’s odd - for some reason, we’ll all happily admit to being useless with say engines ("Me fix a car? I can’t even change a light-bulb! Haw haw") but when did anyone ever take you into their front room and say..
"Yeah decorated it myself - have to come clean, looks like an insane, blind, pissed ape did it doesn’t it?" More likely he’ll put his hands on his hips, look around and say, "Yeah we’re quite pleased with the way it’s turned out"
I suspect many of the people who voted Yes are not classic dense drooling idiots, but it is obvious that most didn’t have the imagination to imagine (REALLY imagine!) what a purpose built ground, surrounded by B&Q, Tesco etc would be like.
Nor what a horrible empty experience watching Everton in such a gaff would be like. Or the imagination to think what it would REEEEALLY like, standing in the rain/sleet/snow for possibly an hour and a half on Kirkby railway station<.br />
It’s like when I hear F1 drivers described as ’brave’. I always think of course they’re not - they simply don’t possess the mental wherewithal to imagine the pain of their own body on fire’.
This is not to say I have anymore imagination than anyone else. Well...actually that’s not true. I believe I do have more imagination than anyone who voted Yes. It’s not a crime of course (lack of imagination) and a world run by people who’s imaginations run wild, I admit would be up shit creek by next Wednesday.
Just a shame though with this issue, there weren’t more creative thinkers running the club and/or voting.
Now?....... A WANK!
Terry, don’t feel bad about voting Yes and ignore the supposed superior intellects who now preach on about how right they were. The day Marshy, Ciaran and Joeynkoo ever admit to being wrong about Moyes and Everton this season, perhaps then we can all look at our own mistakes.
What was more fanciful and imaginative than telling us we could have a truly world class stadium for less than £80 million!! Both sides of the arguement had experts and experts have said that a 50,000 seat stadium can be built both on Scotland Rd.
Can you honestly say that the club, Tesco and Knowsley council won the debate at the inquiry? DK may still come to fruition — God forbid — but if it does, it will not win on open truthful debate.
I voted No and, as has been well publicised on here, have no time for Kenwright and his bullshit baffles brains approach.
Kirkby, if it does go ahead, has so many issues of disastrous proportions, it doesn't bear thinking about and hopefully it won't.
Dave Usher, did you know the cost of making the "Bestway site" suitable for a 55,000 seat stadium is less than the cost of decontaminating the land at Kirkby that the Tescodome is supposed to be built on.
And HOK, who are internationally renowned stadium developers (unlike Barr construction that Tesco use to build grocery stores) did a feasibility study that confirmed a "world class" 55,000 seat stadium could be built on Scotland Road... to which, Wyness responded by saying it had to have the potential capacity of 75,000.
Now Kirkby has been capped at 50,401 for £80 million whereas the Park End could add 8,000 to the current capacity of GP for around £20 million.
Do the maths!!
I would vote Yes again and again.
Nothing has changed to make me consider my vote was wrong.
1. I am of the view that a new ground would lead to a takeover with investment leading to hopefully a winning team
2. New ground that we can afford. We need Tesco to finance it and can't do it on our own.
3. We wouldn't be with Liverpool FC City Council.
4. No obstructed views.
5. Adequate facilities
6. Kirkby would be revitalised.
7. Our best players wouldn't get cherry picked by Utd and City.
8. We might finish higher than Liverpool once more without having to wait another 20 years.
9. Reasoned judgment would prevail
In fact, there isn't a decent argument to stay.
1. Maybe. Could also happen at revamped Goodison, maybe.
2. Tesco have said they will NOT finance any ground. Read the inquiry report.
3. Stupid.
4. Maybe. Could also happen at revamped Goodison.
5. Adequate. What does that mean. The facilities at Goodison are presently "adequate".
6. Not our business to revitalise Kirkby... What about Walton?
7. Why wouldn’t our players be cherrypicked by any bigger club than us regardless of where we play???
8. If DK gives us greater potential, why wouldn’t LFC expect a similar growth at Stanley Park?
9. What reasoned judgement???
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but at least be sensible, FFS.
We will have to disagree.
Number 3 wasn't stupid. If you know your history, you will see that they have treated us differently to Liverpool.
I read and read every bit of information I could get my hands on regarding the move. I scoured every Everton related website for info and opinions before voting. It was more than just a hunch to know that the move was wrong. I doubt those who voted YES dedicated as much time to their decision making and shame on you if you didn’t.
I am still clinging on to the hope that Everton are so skint they won’t be able to come up with the money to move.
(So we move out of our city to get rid of Bill)
"2. New ground that we can afford. We need Tesco to finance it and can't do it on our own."
(As John said, Tescos have said quite clearly they are not paying anything towards the ground and that's a fact — there's no begging to differ here, Ian.)
"3. We wouldn't be with Liverpool FC City Council."
(Kings Dock gift horse, I'll say no more, we all know they fucked that up.)
"4. No obstructed views."
(I'll give you that one; when we have more than 36,000 inside Goodison, it can be awkward for the 4,000 really obstructed views.)
"5. Adequate facilities."
(You know I've been to these mid-range stadiums, go for a piss at Wigan at half time and take your life in your own hands, I gave up last season and waited for the second half to kick off, I've still never managed to get a cup of tea at half time at Bolton or Middlesbro.)
"6. Kirkby would be revitalised."
(No relavance to EFC, what about Walton?)
"7. Our best players wouldn't get cherry picked by Utd and City."
(Are you takin the piss?)
"8. We might finish higher than Liverpool once more without having to wait another 20 years."
(As above.)
"9. Reasoned judgment would prevail."
(You do your fellow yes voters proud Ian.)
"In fact, there isn't a decent argument to stay."
(There are many, Ian.)
Ok, it’s a crap move, to an awful part of the county. It’s not Everton, and never should be associated with Everton. But please, spare us the sanctimonious bleating about you having told people this all along. The fact is, some people bought what they were sold. They didn’t vote Yes to screw the club, or you (Tony Marsh and minions). Their votes were mistaken in my view, but their votes were in good faith.
I also love playing "blame game", but the level of personal abuse by two people, and one in particular, is just too much to stomach.
I voted Yes because Goodison needs a complete revamp and it seems we could not afford it. If Goodison is rebuilt then it is not really Goodison is it? But of course you will not have to change the pub you go to for the pre-match pint, which is really the point of a lot of the posts. Why should you change anything? Just let the board develop the club without asking us to change our bus route. I don’t know if Kirkby would work but the level of contention is dismal.
Trouble with a lot of Scousers is that they refuse to recognize anything beyond their own little world... which is why the City has struggled for god knows how long. And before you leap to the professional scouse attack, I doubt you could be more inner City than me but now gladly outta City except on matchdays.
Why is Kirkby bad but Kings Dock good? What is so great about Liverpool that setting one foot outside of it is a hanging offence? Argue the business case or shut up and don’t abuse people because they have a different but reasoned opinion.
How many clubs in this country would leave a big city to go to a provincial town like Kirkby? How could anyone trust Keith Wyness on something like this? He did the same thing at Aberdeen and that went tits up. I hope to god it fails with us. A bit of research was all that was needed.
But no, people read the OS saw figures of an extra £10million and creamed their pants. £10 million doesn’t even buy you Fabien Delph and Kyle Naughton anymore. It still beggers belief that people voted to go to Kirkby. Totally duped by Tesco’s PR machine.
And to those who say people should do their research before voting, why exactly? A vote is the chance for a person to express their opinion on a particular matter - it doesn’t come with any pre-condition of reading every tiny bit of bollocks out there ’else you’ve been reckless!’ How many no voters voted no simply cos it was in Kirkby without reading a fucking thing? We’re each entitled to our opinions - just cos you don’t like them, it doesn’t give you a right to try to tell them how they should go about things.
I have never questioned your right to have an opinion on anything Everton and never will. After all, opinions are like arseholes: we all have one. And long may it remain so.
NSNO.
Remember, they are very clever business men and would not risk their investment lightly. My personnel opinion is that the sale off the club is dependant on a new stadium and DK is the quickest and cheapest way of acheiving this.
What exactly is it that I have got wrong about Moyes this season?
Ian Edwards with respect to number 3, if you care to check Liverpool Planning Office records (freedom of information act if you want it via the post or just call in) you’ll find Everton Football Club never even asked about Stanley Park and most other claims, the well publicised KD fiasco shows where LCC tried their best to help only to be bullshitted so much they pulled the plug.
I voted no for a multitude of reasons and would vote no again, I looked at all the factors, small town v city, knowledge of Kirkby and football there, BK’s form, KW’s form and the "free lunch" scenario which very few fall for. Unfortunately in terms of proportional representation, more voted against than for but this was not how it was counted. I really hope it never comes to fruition as I still believe firmly it will burden the club and destroy it’s core support and any chance of growth.
If you are trying to use that argument at least acknowledge that would be tantamount to a flattening and complete rebuild and that Tom Hughes and Trevor Skempton’s stirling pieces of work were gradual and sympathetic improvements and replacements of components of the ground but retention of key architectural elements. The Archibald Leitch work at Ibrox is listed so they build with that in mind; Everton could easily do the same but for one massive factor: no will, no way.
--------------------
Is that a serious question? If so, it beggars belief.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 09/07/2009 at 13:39:24
Report abuse
What ’extra £10 million’ are you talking about?
You’re still repeating the same bullshit you were fed back then... which kind of undermines the whole cathartic point of this article!