The Mail Bag
Ownership
Comments (93)
I think it's about time 'we' the fans took some form of action in regards the lack of financial progress our club is making. The fact that so many investors are still sniffing around every Premier League club apart from us has to raise serious questions as to what's happening at the top. Just look at Portsmouth. How can they have two new owners in one Summer when we haven’t had any potential suitors in 4 years.
The report in the Daily Mail in regards the wealth of owners highlights what a pauper we are in comparison with even Hull City. We need a collective organisation and start petitioning for answers from Kenwright. I am a Kenwright fan but the recent behaviour is appalling and a detriment to Everton.
I was shocked that we managed to follow last Summer's inactivity with yet another nail-biting finale. The Club in my eyes is very badly managed. To sell all of its assets and to be run on a shoestring is too close to the nail. I’m not here to regurgitate the article that described what’s wrong. I’m here to say lets start to do something about it!
I think we should start taking action before our club falls too far behind the rest of the pack.
Henry Jones, Posted 08/10/2009 at 10:08:13
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Take action? What are you going to do, have a whip around?
We don’t want to start becoming like Newcastle fans and demonstrating at matches at everything we don’t like, surely?
And to use Portsmouth as an example? It’s not exactly worked out great for them so far, has it?
We don’t want to start becoming like Newcastle fans and demonstrating at matches at everything we don’t like, surely?
And to use Portsmouth as an example? It’s not exactly worked out great for them so far, has it?
Henry, I share your feelings that the club has been appallingly managed for several years and have advocated for a while that a fan buyout be organised - even to the point of suggesting this to the club itself (with no answer forthcoming).
For me there are many facets of this poor management, resulting in the disgracefully run proposed move to Kirkby and the frankly poor PR policies/ tactics the club has developed. The selling off and renting back of assets I think is only ever a short term solution and I do not think that short termism works in the modern football world.
At the end of the day, however, the current owners have to be willing to sell and, to me, it is eveident that they are not. Even were the fans to club together and wallop £200m in Kenwright’s paw, there is no obligation upon him (or any of the other shareholders to sell).
So the question is ’how?’
If the supporters where to get together to do something about this... how would we get together and what exactly would we do?
Shouting Kenwright out is a waste of breath — we might as well stand outside of Virgin and shout Branson out... it's never going to happen because he OWNS part of the club, we can't force his hand in that way.
The only way we can do it is to organise a fan buyout which is extremely difficult to do.
It's almost (but not) impossible to carry out — I think if you were to see how long it is taking the ’spirit of shankly’s mums dog’ to get their act into gear you would realise that it's very difficult to do anything about those who own a football club.
I would love a fan buyout — but it's complex at the very least!
If the supporters where to get together to do something about this... how would we get together and what exactly would we do?
Shouting Kenwright out is a waste of breath — we might as well stand outside of Virgin and shout Branson out... it's never going to happen because he OWNS part of the club, we can't force his hand in that way.
The only way we can do it is to organise a fan buyout which is extremely difficult to do.
- Firstly, you need enough fans.
- Secondly, it has to be regulated because it's financial and it could tie us all in together.
- Thirdly, what happens when.... ...someone wants out, someone wants in, someone is not happy... if it was via a share option then we could just end up at the same point we are at now — one or a group of fans would own the majority and they wouldn’t have enough money... blah blah blah.
It's almost (but not) impossible to carry out — I think if you were to see how long it is taking the ’spirit of shankly’s mums dog’ to get their act into gear you would realise that it's very difficult to do anything about those who own a football club.
I would love a fan buyout — but it's complex at the very least!
Big, burning question:
if the Yahoo report is anywhere near close to the mark, and if Mr Granchester has so much control and so much wealth.... why the fuck is everyone on Blue Bill’s back all the time and why doesn't Lord "G" cough up £50 million out of goodwill? I mean, Jesus, it sounds like small change to a man with £1.2 billion to his name.
I'm serious, did I miss something from years back? It looks to me like the club is in very VERY safe hands. Please do enlighten me, those who are in the know about this.
if the Yahoo report is anywhere near close to the mark, and if Mr Granchester has so much control and so much wealth.... why the fuck is everyone on Blue Bill’s back all the time and why doesn't Lord "G" cough up £50 million out of goodwill? I mean, Jesus, it sounds like small change to a man with £1.2 billion to his name.
I'm serious, did I miss something from years back? It looks to me like the club is in very VERY safe hands. Please do enlighten me, those who are in the know about this.
Maybe if a few matches were boycotted during the season... Would that make Kenwright stop and see the sense of not going to Kirkby? Surely he’s not a 100% stubborn. Or we could gather together a lynch mob...
Eric, Lord Grantchester isn’t on the Board.
Spot on Dennis, Lord Grantchester has a relatively small proportion of the shares too — 2,773 or 7.9% of the 35,000 outstanding, as of my last information, and exerts little to no control over the club's affairs.
There was a lot of talk that he should buy the club off Peter Johnson back when... but word was his mother(!) forbade it, and did not want the Moores family to have any more involvement with the club.
However, Lord Grantchester has been a major figure in bringing forward the Everton Collection. But to imply he is one of the richest guys involved in football, and that all his money is available to Everton FC, is way way wide of the mark.
There was a lot of talk that he should buy the club off Peter Johnson back when... but word was his mother(!) forbade it, and did not want the Moores family to have any more involvement with the club.
However, Lord Grantchester has been a major figure in bringing forward the Everton Collection. But to imply he is one of the richest guys involved in football, and that all his money is available to Everton FC, is way way wide of the mark.
Yes... it's a real shame we haven’t been able to attract new owners of the calibre of those at Portsmouth.... or Notts County.... or Newcastle.... or Liverpool.... All beacons of light in the darkness they are.
I can't wait 'til Kenwright sells us to some foreign consortium like the one now in control at Portsmouth. What a fantastic proposition that would be.
Some people need to get real.... Yes the club is poorly managed in various departments (and has been for years) but some Evertonians don’t look beyond the knee jerk ’We need new owners to pump in money.’ Apart from one startlingly clear example (Abramovich), NONE of the foreign owners in charge of Premier League have brought instant success or investment (granted, City have the investement but no guarentee of success). In fact there are more examples of them taking money out of the clubs or piling them up with debts (Liverpool.... United).
Some of the Evertonians on here seem to live in a fantasy land where every other club, apart from ours, is run in a smooth, professional way with the fans contented with their lot... a quick chat with any Villa, Spurs, Liverpool supporter should really disabuse them of that notion.
I’m no great fan of Kenwright's but to suggest the club has not made progress under his chairmanship is to deny factual evidence. His bullshit winds me up and the whole Kings Dock / Kirkby debacle will prove to be his epitaph... BUT if we think that any new owners (especially any foreign owners) would behave in a different way, that's naive at best.
He is undoubtedly never going to have the finances to compete with billionaires who can splash their own cash but we have acquired, through different means, the strongest squad we have had at this club for 20 years. I’m not syaing that all foreign investment, is bad (Lerner is a good example, but speak to Villa fans unhappy with their performance in the transfer market and failure to capitalise on their scorching start last year.... it's like reading some articles on here!) but the debacles at Portsmouth, Notts County, QPR, Man City (who were sold to a convicted human rights abuser and fraudster before then being sold to oil-rich Arabs from a state which is run like a feudal oligarchy) should begin to spell the end for this foriegn ownership fad.
No other country in the world would allow the MAJORITY of clubs in their flagship league in the national sport to be owned by foreigners... It is a scandal that nothing has been done about it. The Premier League are spineless and simply interested in making money through strengthening the ’global brand’, whilst this government is equally spineless when the ’free market’ card is played.
Uefa and Fifa seem well intentioned, but how they might go about resolving this mess is difficult without the support of the country involved. If any (notoriously apathetic) Evertonians are desperate to get involved in a campaign, then this is where they should be focussing their efforts — not on trying to get our club to join the gravy train before it spectacularly implodes.
Rant over!
Off topic I know but I just found it ironic/funny that a post about poor financial management comes from a an Evertonian from Leeds.
Colin, how can boycotting matches help with our finicial situation, it won’t make Bill think any differently about Kirkby but it will make a dent in our already threadbare/overdrawn bank account.
If we have a fans buyout, what happens when the bills come in the season after and the Sky money doesn’t cover them? Do we the fans then keep on paying "subs" each season to stay afloat? Where will the money for new signings come from?
Colin, how can boycotting matches help with our finicial situation, it won’t make Bill think any differently about Kirkby but it will make a dent in our already threadbare/overdrawn bank account.
If we have a fans buyout, what happens when the bills come in the season after and the Sky money doesn’t cover them? Do we the fans then keep on paying "subs" each season to stay afloat? Where will the money for new signings come from?
Here we go again, I think we’ve heard it all before. I must admit though, I’m amazed as to why Portsmouth are such an attraction to buyers of football clubs. Shit ground, not exactly a hotbed of football down there, half the gate that we get, spent most of the last 50 years in the lower divisions and not exactly a history that would get your pulse racing. It certainly makes me wonder what the attraction is with Portsmouth, I’m fucked if I can see it.
So, that article states that our owners have far less money than teams such as Villa and Spurs (that many neutrals would put on a par with us), as well as Blackburn, Fulham, Hull, Stoke, Wigan and Wolves (that most people would consider to be inferior). That suggests that our owners are using their resources far more judiciously than their rivals. Doesn’t that mean that they are actually doing the job very capably?
As for the usual cries for “investment”, simply put only an idiot would invest in Everton. Investors, by definition, are in it to make money. Anybody throwing money at us in order to take us to the “next level” with be playing a very high risk game for astronomical stakes in the middle of a global financial crisis. It isn’t going to happen.
Think about it. How would you feel if the people looking after your savings / pension fund / whatever told you that they had invested your financial future in Everton Football Club? I dunno about you, but I’d be absolutely gutted.
As for the usual cries for “investment”, simply put only an idiot would invest in Everton. Investors, by definition, are in it to make money. Anybody throwing money at us in order to take us to the “next level” with be playing a very high risk game for astronomical stakes in the middle of a global financial crisis. It isn’t going to happen.
Think about it. How would you feel if the people looking after your savings / pension fund / whatever told you that they had invested your financial future in Everton Football Club? I dunno about you, but I’d be absolutely gutted.
Steven Connor
Well said, couldn’t have put it better myself.
Well said, couldn’t have put it better myself.
Steven Connor, quite a rant mate but I couldn't agree more. Top post fella.
Does it really matter that our main board members have £110M to their name, against say £500M in the Jack Walker Trust? Did Blackburn dip in and splash £30M on a few new players or throw £50M at expanding one of the smallest grounds in the Premier League? Same could be said for Arsenal, whose board could write off their debts with pocket change!
It means nothing. The clubs all run independently from the people who own them, and the last time I checked, it wasn’t a requirement to spend all your hard earned on the club you just bought.
Jamie,
Contrary to our disagreement on the other thread... in this one you have my total accord.
Contrary to our disagreement on the other thread... in this one you have my total accord.
Steven Connor, please allow me to be another Evertonian to say: ’hear hear’.
How many more clubs do we need to add to the list that already includes the likes of Leeds, Newcastle, Portsmouth and West Ham etc, before we realise that yes, although things are not as prosperous as we would like them to be, the outlook is not as bleak as some would paint?
We still have great aspiration and ambition, but unfortunately our time is not now. Be patient, it will surely come again.
Ex United chairman, Martin Edwards was quoted only today bemoaning the fact that if the Glazers sell out, the club could be saddled with the £700m debt it acquired as part of the takeover.
So I’m happy as we are, rather than be owned by some foreign mystery moneyman or overseas consortium.
Has the short-term pursuit of money - irrespective of the long-term consequences - overtaken everything?
How many more clubs do we need to add to the list that already includes the likes of Leeds, Newcastle, Portsmouth and West Ham etc, before we realise that yes, although things are not as prosperous as we would like them to be, the outlook is not as bleak as some would paint?
We still have great aspiration and ambition, but unfortunately our time is not now. Be patient, it will surely come again.
Ex United chairman, Martin Edwards was quoted only today bemoaning the fact that if the Glazers sell out, the club could be saddled with the £700m debt it acquired as part of the takeover.
So I’m happy as we are, rather than be owned by some foreign mystery moneyman or overseas consortium.
Has the short-term pursuit of money - irrespective of the long-term consequences - overtaken everything?
Firstly, let me be another one to congratulate Steve Connor on an excellently constructed "rant". I could have written it myself.
I was hoping the latest fiasco at Pompey might stop people throwing them up as an example of how easy it is to get investment, or as a stick to beat Bill with. Clearly I was mistaken!
It may well be astounding or even perplexing that these clubs can be bought several times over while we seem to be left out in the cold, but having seen the circus role in and out again with no improvement at the club I don’t think I would swap places with them, would you?
Bill has many flaws, but some times it’s better the devil you know.
COYB
I was hoping the latest fiasco at Pompey might stop people throwing them up as an example of how easy it is to get investment, or as a stick to beat Bill with. Clearly I was mistaken!
It may well be astounding or even perplexing that these clubs can be bought several times over while we seem to be left out in the cold, but having seen the circus role in and out again with no improvement at the club I don’t think I would swap places with them, would you?
Bill has many flaws, but some times it’s better the devil you know.
COYB
Tony, it was just a thought that, if peole did stay away for a couple of matches, it may, with a bit of luck, start his brain ticking over, because if he can realize that if 10,000 stay away from Kirkby permanently, this club will be in shit street, and in my opinion it will never recover. Desperate times need desperate measures.
Steven Connor, Matthew Lovekin, Chris Lawlor, Neil McKinney and any other sycophants — can you enlighten us all on your galactic wisdom in selective argument: Portsmouth? How about Man Utd? Newcastle? How about Aston Villa? how about Chelski? how about Man City? How about Prince Faisal of Saudi Arabia, who is just another (choose from any usual slur) could well be about to invest mega bucks into the RS?
I’d rather have a new owner at Everton to put their money where their mouth is than the current board who have in black and white admitted they have and are unwilling to spend a penny of their own money on the club or dilute their shareholdings to do so. I’d rather have someone capable of running this club and business than the old boy lying bastard network we have.
What a load of bollocks. Bullshit Bill has turned us into a second rate club, the whole of the media world now believe us to be a small club. I didn't like P Johnson but we weren't deemed small then — only since BK and his cronies took over, he should've gone for Rooney £50 million or he won't be going anywhere.
They actually fought harder to keep Lescott, I digress, let's see if everyone thinks better the devil you know when that fucking devil has dumped us in Kirkby and fucked off with £250 million.
Get real he's ruining us, and when were stuck out of the city in a shit stadium we will all say we should of got rid. I don't care if Curtis Warren or Jack the fuckin' Ripper takes over with no money, mark my words he will finish us, if he suceeds with DK were gone. Forever.
I for one would support any action to get rid of him.
Gavin, a familiar tactic used by Kenwright's apologists is we don’t want these dodgy new owners, with a hint of xenophobia thrown in. They do this because they can’t think of a positive reason to defend Bill through citing a particular achievement of his tenure.
Like you, I won’t allow this to stand, in light of the suicide option of Kirkby.
Like you, I won’t allow this to stand, in light of the suicide option of Kirkby.
Henry,
We have plenty of reason to protest against the board, I tried to get one started after the Arsenal game but It didn’t get off the ground due to a lack of interest.
The club’s support is rather conservative, which is one of the reasons Bill has support amongst the fanbase, if not the shareholders, and why they fear the prospect of new owners (change).
We have plenty of reason to protest against the board, I tried to get one started after the Arsenal game but It didn’t get off the ground due to a lack of interest.
The club’s support is rather conservative, which is one of the reasons Bill has support amongst the fanbase, if not the shareholders, and why they fear the prospect of new owners (change).
David, He also manipulates the media with all this Blue Bill stuff, the media and most of the soccer pundits would all come out in sympathy for him... Saying he's doing a wonderfull job keeping that small club Everton up with the big boys, he's already convinced the football world he's a true leader of a football club with his heart on his sleeve.
Truth is, he is probably following orders from those other true blues Green and Earl. Mind you... dont they support Spurs?
Billy Bullshit has split Evertonians over numerous points, that it makes it harder to gain any momentum for a protest. I think they call it divide and conquer, and he's winning.
I know Robert, I covered that topic back in August. I wouldn’t ever deny that he’s a blue, but by god whenever he’s in trouble he milks it for all it's worth.
Gavin Ramejkis... before you describe me as a ’sycophant’, try reading what I have written. I stated quite clearly I am no Kenwright supporter and the actual ’rant’ was directed more at the ridiculous naivety of people like yourself who see ’foreign ownerhsip’ as a panacea to all our ills (such ills as they are having the most consistently ’successful’ side we have had in 20 yeras... but that's an argument to have with others).
Again mate, if you actually read the post I mentioned Liverpool, United, Spurs, Newcastle, Villa et al... I did not select Portsmouth as the example, that was done in the original post.
But since you bring it up, let's see then... as I stated, apart from Chelsea, which of these foreign owners of other clubs have brought the instant improvement and cash that the ’lying bastards’ in charge at Everton are unable to provide.
You mention United... well, their financial stability and success has absolutely nothing to do with the Glazers... It has been built up over the last 20 years through domestic dominance, sound commercial management and, dare I say it, a nice slice of luck at enjoying the most successful period in their history at the exact moment football finances went ballistic. The Glazers have managed to squander all of that and Manchester United, the biggest global brand in football are spectacularly in debt... all as a consequence of foreign ownership.
Liverpool... virtually ditto the above.
City... One disasterous messiah from Thailand departs... enter messiah number 2 from Arabia.... awaiting results here. Yes, lots of money spent, but let's wait and see. If this one comes off the ’foreign’ ownership brigade can add it to their list of successful examples, but until then.
Chelsea... agreed, THE barometer of success under foreign ownership... although it's something of a myth that they went from Zero to Hero overnight... they were regular Top 4 and Cup winners in the ten years prior to Romans arrival.
Villa... I dealt with in original post.
Spurs.... fuck me, how many managers in how many years and now they have Redknapp... there's a ’lying bastard’ for you if ever there was one.
I could go on, but its pointless as you have proven you prefer not to actually read what someone writes, but instead use it as an opportunity to plough the ’anyone but Kenwright’ furrow.
Be careful what you wish for... that's all.
Again mate, if you actually read the post I mentioned Liverpool, United, Spurs, Newcastle, Villa et al... I did not select Portsmouth as the example, that was done in the original post.
But since you bring it up, let's see then... as I stated, apart from Chelsea, which of these foreign owners of other clubs have brought the instant improvement and cash that the ’lying bastards’ in charge at Everton are unable to provide.
You mention United... well, their financial stability and success has absolutely nothing to do with the Glazers... It has been built up over the last 20 years through domestic dominance, sound commercial management and, dare I say it, a nice slice of luck at enjoying the most successful period in their history at the exact moment football finances went ballistic. The Glazers have managed to squander all of that and Manchester United, the biggest global brand in football are spectacularly in debt... all as a consequence of foreign ownership.
Liverpool... virtually ditto the above.
City... One disasterous messiah from Thailand departs... enter messiah number 2 from Arabia.... awaiting results here. Yes, lots of money spent, but let's wait and see. If this one comes off the ’foreign’ ownership brigade can add it to their list of successful examples, but until then.
Chelsea... agreed, THE barometer of success under foreign ownership... although it's something of a myth that they went from Zero to Hero overnight... they were regular Top 4 and Cup winners in the ten years prior to Romans arrival.
Villa... I dealt with in original post.
Spurs.... fuck me, how many managers in how many years and now they have Redknapp... there's a ’lying bastard’ for you if ever there was one.
I could go on, but its pointless as you have proven you prefer not to actually read what someone writes, but instead use it as an opportunity to plough the ’anyone but Kenwright’ furrow.
Be careful what you wish for... that's all.
You're right, David, I wouldn't deny that he's a Blue but it doesn't make any difference as he is on a path to total destruction for our club. If it was anyone else, they would've already been hounded out. We're all to passive over this and Henry's right — we do need to make a stand.
All of these clubs with foreign owners, Steven, are doing better than EFC. In the case of Chelsea, Abramovich made then Champions, they had hit a glass ceiling up till that point. The Glazers have allowed the Mancs to compete with and beat Chelsea, they were falling behind until the takeover.
The others that you mention, Villa, Redshite, Spurs, Man City have transfer budgets and ambition.
Careful what you wish for? Bollocks to that — embrace the future.
The others that you mention, Villa, Redshite, Spurs, Man City have transfer budgets and ambition.
Careful what you wish for? Bollocks to that — embrace the future.
Tony Williams — due to work, I’ve been living in Leeds for 6 years now. I hope to be living back in the North West sooner rather than later. Why this has anything to do with this debate is beyond me.
I have no solution to the Board problem. However, as a collective, we may be able to find a solution.
I’m not saying Kenwright is evil or bad BUT something is not right within our Club. Moyes has even raised questions as to what the Board are up to in regards transfers. His recent comment about what was paid this summer in transfer fees, certainly made his feelings known.
A course to be taken could be to force Kenwright to give us some answers. I’m sure he’s a great bloke but I want answers....
I presume Kenwright is a Director as well as a Shareholder. We could seek out any shareholders who are willing to propose his removal as a director under the Companies Act 2006.
This is just one avenue. My main concern is that all we do is complain. Nothing is ever done and no progress is ever made in regards finances. Yes, the Club has a fantastic manager but I fear how long he and the players will want to keep swimming against the tide.
COYB.
I have no solution to the Board problem. However, as a collective, we may be able to find a solution.
I’m not saying Kenwright is evil or bad BUT something is not right within our Club. Moyes has even raised questions as to what the Board are up to in regards transfers. His recent comment about what was paid this summer in transfer fees, certainly made his feelings known.
A course to be taken could be to force Kenwright to give us some answers. I’m sure he’s a great bloke but I want answers....
I presume Kenwright is a Director as well as a Shareholder. We could seek out any shareholders who are willing to propose his removal as a director under the Companies Act 2006.
This is just one avenue. My main concern is that all we do is complain. Nothing is ever done and no progress is ever made in regards finances. Yes, the Club has a fantastic manager but I fear how long he and the players will want to keep swimming against the tide.
COYB.
David O’Keefe — as an investment-fantasist/ whingenesta, you fall into that classic trap of "all those clubs with foreign powers are doing better than us" nonsense. Yes, that’s right, Portsmouth — I wish we were them. West Ham — oh how I long to be in their position. Birmingham — now that’s a club going places. Aston Villa — erm hang... on haven’t we finished above them for the last 3 seasons? Spurs — oh but they finished below us last year and the year before. Man City — can’t remember them finishing above us last year under their new owners or the year before when they were also owned by Sinawatra. The Shite - wouldn’t want to be them for a whole host of reasons but their dodgy owners aren’t exactly something to aspire too are they?
So you want some positves of Bill’s tenure?
Appointing David Moyes... which in turn has led to regular European Football. Regularly breaking our transfer record. Having a far better, younger squad than at any other point in the last 20 years. But none of this has anything to do with the board does it?
So you want some positves of Bill’s tenure?
Appointing David Moyes... which in turn has led to regular European Football. Regularly breaking our transfer record. Having a far better, younger squad than at any other point in the last 20 years. But none of this has anything to do with the board does it?
Well said Chris Leyland.
Everton have emerged as THE main contenders to the so-called ’big four’ in the last four years.
We’ve got a terrific manager, a team/squad that gets stronger every season and might just be on the crest of something big.
We’re all ambitious and want Everton to start winning again, but I wish some of the critics would apply some perspective.
This is consistently the best Everton side for almost quarter of a century — apart from a short, unsustained period under Joe Royle.
Can anyone remember how dire, predictable and toothless Everton were until Moyes took over?
We’re no pushovers now and have more than a few players who would seriously merit a place in any of the top four teams.
We haven’t got money to burn, but we have got a great manager. Be patient.
Everton have emerged as THE main contenders to the so-called ’big four’ in the last four years.
We’ve got a terrific manager, a team/squad that gets stronger every season and might just be on the crest of something big.
We’re all ambitious and want Everton to start winning again, but I wish some of the critics would apply some perspective.
This is consistently the best Everton side for almost quarter of a century — apart from a short, unsustained period under Joe Royle.
Can anyone remember how dire, predictable and toothless Everton were until Moyes took over?
We’re no pushovers now and have more than a few players who would seriously merit a place in any of the top four teams.
We haven’t got money to burn, but we have got a great manager. Be patient.
Leyland, he cannot take any credit for Moyes's achievements they are his and his alone.
Bill is the chairman, the man who runs the club and signs the cheques. He can’t do the former and he because of that he can’t do the latter. EFC are skint and are on course to make the worst business decision in its history-Kirkby.
Those clubs that had foreign investment all had money spent on them and in the cases of West Ham and Portsmouth been the victim of circumstances beyond their control related to the recession.
Bill is the chairman, the man who runs the club and signs the cheques. He can’t do the former and he because of that he can’t do the latter. EFC are skint and are on course to make the worst business decision in its history-Kirkby.
Those clubs that had foreign investment all had money spent on them and in the cases of West Ham and Portsmouth been the victim of circumstances beyond their control related to the recession.
I posted this on the 24/7 thread, I'll post it again on here. I was with you by the way, Dave, I think we saw the appathy at what we tried to achieve even though there are clearly many Evertoinans upset with what's going on.
Personally I think what Bill has in store for us with regard to Kirkby, is far worse than what any foreign conman could ever have dreamed up. So let’s have less of this "I’d rather have one of us looking after the club" bullshit, because anyone else would never have been able to have even suggested that we move out of our city.
I will add further that we chased one charlatan out of town and we can chase another one out... I can still remember Johnson’s car speeding off down Gooodison Road with an angry blue hanging off the back and he was never seen here again, the difference is what you saw with him is what you got.
Personally I think what Bill has in store for us with regard to Kirkby, is far worse than what any foreign conman could ever have dreamed up. So let’s have less of this "I’d rather have one of us looking after the club" bullshit, because anyone else would never have been able to have even suggested that we move out of our city.
I will add further that we chased one charlatan out of town and we can chase another one out... I can still remember Johnson’s car speeding off down Gooodison Road with an angry blue hanging off the back and he was never seen here again, the difference is what you saw with him is what you got.
The two requirements for breaking the top 4: a good manager and money. We have one of those requirements... we need the other. It doesn’t get more complicated than that...
I think what those financial analyses say to me is what a miraculous job Moyesy and the lads are doing.
Everyone knows Kenwright is a lying, deceitful, incompetent charlatan so no point in going over old ground. However, I would like to make the point that Billionaire or Millionaire owners (doesn't matter if they’re foreign or not to me) very rarely put any of their own money into a club, so I wouldn't criticise Kenwright for that nor envy half the "Rich Club" because at the end of the day there’s only so many trophies and "Cash prizes" and, as we know from our history, everything goes in phases so it must be our turn soon.
However, apart from the blatant lies, I would criticise Kenwright and his buddies for not having a proper business plan and not running the club on a better commercial footing than he has.
At the end of the day, he is the Chairman and must accept responsibility for everything under his control and while the playing side has done well in the face of adversity the complete reversal is true on the finances.
At a time, when potential income is at its highest, Kenwright has presided over the worst financial performance in EFC’s history, taking debts from £5M to over £75M, operating losses for 8 out of 10 years of his reign and mortgaging or selling every asset he inherited, including future gate receipts. And all of this despite the money for Rooney and Lescott.
For all those who put down the Glazers and Hicks-Gillets of this world take a proper look at our own club. We are much nearer the financial abyss than you think.
Kenwright's legacy may well be to sink the club he professes to love.
Everyone knows Kenwright is a lying, deceitful, incompetent charlatan so no point in going over old ground. However, I would like to make the point that Billionaire or Millionaire owners (doesn't matter if they’re foreign or not to me) very rarely put any of their own money into a club, so I wouldn't criticise Kenwright for that nor envy half the "Rich Club" because at the end of the day there’s only so many trophies and "Cash prizes" and, as we know from our history, everything goes in phases so it must be our turn soon.
However, apart from the blatant lies, I would criticise Kenwright and his buddies for not having a proper business plan and not running the club on a better commercial footing than he has.
At the end of the day, he is the Chairman and must accept responsibility for everything under his control and while the playing side has done well in the face of adversity the complete reversal is true on the finances.
At a time, when potential income is at its highest, Kenwright has presided over the worst financial performance in EFC’s history, taking debts from £5M to over £75M, operating losses for 8 out of 10 years of his reign and mortgaging or selling every asset he inherited, including future gate receipts. And all of this despite the money for Rooney and Lescott.
For all those who put down the Glazers and Hicks-Gillets of this world take a proper look at our own club. We are much nearer the financial abyss than you think.
Kenwright's legacy may well be to sink the club he professes to love.
Richard, I don’t know what disappoints me more, the apathy or Bill’s ever faithful though decreasing in number sycophants.
Anyway, the main problem is conservatism, but what are we conserving exactly? A stooge for two wealthy retail behemoths who is a blue, but is about to kill the club.
Don’t want to be like Spirit of Shankly... neither do I, Munich chants and being manipulated by Rafa? No thanks. How about Geordies, well they may have had a point considering the revelations that Keegan’s employment tribunal revealed.
On the other hand, let's do nothing while the board, lie to us, silence us and kill the club. At least make a stand before the club dies, if only so we can look ourselves in the mirror each morning... or we could just moan on the messageboards day and night, night and day, day and night etc etc.
Anyway, the main problem is conservatism, but what are we conserving exactly? A stooge for two wealthy retail behemoths who is a blue, but is about to kill the club.
Don’t want to be like Spirit of Shankly... neither do I, Munich chants and being manipulated by Rafa? No thanks. How about Geordies, well they may have had a point considering the revelations that Keegan’s employment tribunal revealed.
On the other hand, let's do nothing while the board, lie to us, silence us and kill the club. At least make a stand before the club dies, if only so we can look ourselves in the mirror each morning... or we could just moan on the messageboards day and night, night and day, day and night etc etc.
David or should it be "O’Keefe" to keep it in your own Schoolmaster style, of course anything good has nothing to do with the Kenwright but everything bad is all his fault.
It was, after all, Moyes who appointed himself as manager and Moyes who stuck by himself when we finished 17th. It was Moyes and Moyes alone who consistently broke our record transfer and this has nothing to do with Kenwright.
And as for the those great other clubs you talk of... let’s look at our nearest rival over the past 2 years - facts:
Aston Villa: Turnover £75M, debt of £73M, wages of £50M... compared to Everton with debts of £39M, turnover of £76M and wages of £44M.
We actually have one of the lowest debts in the Premier League and here is just some of the clubs at the end of 2007-08 (the last published figures) with a bigger debt: Arsenal, Villa, Bolton, Chelsea, Fulham, Liverpol, Man City, Man Utd, Newcastle, Boro, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Spurs, Wigan. Oh, and during that period, 15 Premier League clubs had a bigger wages-to-turnover ratio than us.
Jesus, this board are a joke what with wages under control and lower debt than the majority of other clubs finishing in the top 6 regularly. Still, as we know, this is nothing to do with Kenwright is it?
It was, after all, Moyes who appointed himself as manager and Moyes who stuck by himself when we finished 17th. It was Moyes and Moyes alone who consistently broke our record transfer and this has nothing to do with Kenwright.
And as for the those great other clubs you talk of... let’s look at our nearest rival over the past 2 years - facts:
Aston Villa: Turnover £75M, debt of £73M, wages of £50M... compared to Everton with debts of £39M, turnover of £76M and wages of £44M.
We actually have one of the lowest debts in the Premier League and here is just some of the clubs at the end of 2007-08 (the last published figures) with a bigger debt: Arsenal, Villa, Bolton, Chelsea, Fulham, Liverpol, Man City, Man Utd, Newcastle, Boro, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Spurs, Wigan. Oh, and during that period, 15 Premier League clubs had a bigger wages-to-turnover ratio than us.
Jesus, this board are a joke what with wages under control and lower debt than the majority of other clubs finishing in the top 6 regularly. Still, as we know, this is nothing to do with Kenwright is it?
Leyland, write 100 times:
"I must acknowledge reality"
"I must acknowledge reality"
Does Kenwright pick the team, coach them, recruit them? No he does not, so let's leave it at that shall we.
If the finances are so rosy as you claim, what happened to the transfer budget? Why must the club sell to buy?
If the finances are so rosy as you claim, what happened to the transfer budget? Why must the club sell to buy?
O’Keefe (again to match your own purile insistence of using last names) — repeat a thousand times "don’t let the facts stand in the way of a whinge"
You talk of reality but yet you choose to ignore the reality of the facts I just presented to you. Pathetic so instead resort to juvenility.
No, Kenwright doesn’t pick the team. He employs the manager and sticks by him, to do that. He also provides the wages and budget to enable Moyes to do that.
You talk of reality but yet you choose to ignore the reality of the facts I just presented to you. Pathetic so instead resort to juvenility.
No, Kenwright doesn’t pick the team. He employs the manager and sticks by him, to do that. He also provides the wages and budget to enable Moyes to do that.
I don’t know what happened to the transfer budget and neither do you. Maybe Moyes couldn’t find anyone. Maybe Kenwright blew it all on trying to wreck the club.
Ask yourself one more question before you slip back into your whinging, whining, fantasy world of investors queuing up if only if wasn’t for evil Bill -— if Kenwright is so, so bad and Moyes so, so wonderful, then why has Davey stuck with Kenwright for so long?
LEYLAND, finish your lines.
The facts you presented regarding EFC’s finances are just wrong.
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=263&cntnt01returnid=15
The facts you presented regarding EFC’s finances are just wrong.
http://www.keioc.net/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=263&cntnt01returnid=15
Oh yes, it must be true as it is on KEIOC that well known unbiased website which has no axe to grind of any kind against the Board. Carry on in that dream world you live in.
My figures actually came from Companies House, which, by the way is the official published accounts for all limited companies. Hmm which is true an anti-board website or Companies House? Just to empahise the point here is the table from the Guardian:
Club Debt (£ms), Turnover (£ms), Wages (£ms), Wages/turnover
Arsenal 416 223 101.3 45%
Aston Villa 73 75.6 50.4 66.6%
Blackburn Rovers 17 56.4 39.7 70%
Bolton Wanderers 52 59.1 39 67%
Chelsea 701 213.6 149 68%
Everton 39 76 44.5 59%
Fulham 197 53.7 39.3 73%
Hull City (2007 figures) 1 9 6.9 77%
Liverpool 280 (est) 159 80 (est) 50%
Manchester City 147 82.3 54.2 66%
Manchester United 699 256.2 121.1 47%
Middlesbrough 93 48 34.8 73%
Newcastle 106.2 100.8 74.6 74%
Portsmouth 57.7 70.6 54.7 78%
Stoke City 2.3 11.2 11.9 106%
Sunderland 69.2 63.6 37.1 58%
Tottenham Hotspur 65 114.8 52.9 46%
West Bromwich Albion 8.9 27.2 21.8
West Ham United 36 57 44.2 76%
Wigan Athletic 66.4 43 38.4 89%
Now, get your coat fella, you're leaving.
Nice to see you're addressing my key question about why Moyes sticks with Bill though. Thanks for that.
My figures actually came from Companies House, which, by the way is the official published accounts for all limited companies. Hmm which is true an anti-board website or Companies House? Just to empahise the point here is the table from the Guardian:
Club Debt (£ms), Turnover (£ms), Wages (£ms), Wages/turnover
Arsenal 416 223 101.3 45%
Aston Villa 73 75.6 50.4 66.6%
Blackburn Rovers 17 56.4 39.7 70%
Bolton Wanderers 52 59.1 39 67%
Chelsea 701 213.6 149 68%
Everton 39 76 44.5 59%
Fulham 197 53.7 39.3 73%
Hull City (2007 figures) 1 9 6.9 77%
Liverpool 280 (est) 159 80 (est) 50%
Manchester City 147 82.3 54.2 66%
Manchester United 699 256.2 121.1 47%
Middlesbrough 93 48 34.8 73%
Newcastle 106.2 100.8 74.6 74%
Portsmouth 57.7 70.6 54.7 78%
Stoke City 2.3 11.2 11.9 106%
Sunderland 69.2 63.6 37.1 58%
Tottenham Hotspur 65 114.8 52.9 46%
West Bromwich Albion 8.9 27.2 21.8
West Ham United 36 57 44.2 76%
Wigan Athletic 66.4 43 38.4 89%
Now, get your coat fella, you're leaving.
Nice to see you're addressing my key question about why Moyes sticks with Bill though. Thanks for that.
Ad-hominem argument, Leyland, bad form.
Leyland, you did not read the Keioc article, so is it worth continuing this debate? Thus far you have used ad-hominem arguments and sarcasm.
If the debts are so low, why does the club have no money for transfers? Is it because Companies House is wrong? No, it's because of accountancy rules. Add the £30 million 25-year loan that the club borrowed from Bear Stearns and the finances picture doesn’t look so rosy.
Nice try, Leyland, not buying it. Either engage with the opposition honestly or go to bed.
Leyland, you did not read the Keioc article, so is it worth continuing this debate? Thus far you have used ad-hominem arguments and sarcasm.
If the debts are so low, why does the club have no money for transfers? Is it because Companies House is wrong? No, it's because of accountancy rules. Add the £30 million 25-year loan that the club borrowed from Bear Stearns and the finances picture doesn’t look so rosy.
Nice try, Leyland, not buying it. Either engage with the opposition honestly or go to bed.
"If the debts are so low, why does the club have no money for transfers?"
When we’re dealing with intellect like this is there really any point in this argument continuing?
Some of you can wish for instant improvement and being saddled with debt. Others can long for slow improvement and minimal debt.
The rest of us can just support the team. COYB!!!
When we’re dealing with intellect like this is there really any point in this argument continuing?
Some of you can wish for instant improvement and being saddled with debt. Others can long for slow improvement and minimal debt.
The rest of us can just support the team. COYB!!!
Chris Leyland please get up to date.
The figures at companies house are 2 years out of date.
Kenwrights head of finance the eminent Robert Elstone reported debts in excess of 75 million at the shareholders meeting a few months ago.
Also unlike a lot of the clubs you are comparing us to we do not have the asset or income base to service them as well.
You cannot have continuous operating losses for almost 10 years and still claim to be financially well run.
And please stop this constant referral to he appointed Moyes and stuck by him when we finished 17th.
But for the supporters, Walter ("I talk to Walter every day on the phone") Smith would still be in charge.
Please don't cling to straws on Kenwright's behalf I’m sure he wouldnt return the favour.
The figures at companies house are 2 years out of date.
Kenwrights head of finance the eminent Robert Elstone reported debts in excess of 75 million at the shareholders meeting a few months ago.
Also unlike a lot of the clubs you are comparing us to we do not have the asset or income base to service them as well.
You cannot have continuous operating losses for almost 10 years and still claim to be financially well run.
And please stop this constant referral to he appointed Moyes and stuck by him when we finished 17th.
But for the supporters, Walter ("I talk to Walter every day on the phone") Smith would still be in charge.
Please don't cling to straws on Kenwright's behalf I’m sure he wouldnt return the favour.
£39mill debt? If only... Conservative figures have it at around £70mill... others have it at £90-100mill....
But we don’t know what it actually is because we’re still waiting on figures for the last two seasons... So, where were we... Oh yes, transparency...
But we don’t know what it actually is because we’re still waiting on figures for the last two seasons... So, where were we... Oh yes, transparency...
If you go back to the start of the arguement, before mssrs O’Keefe and Leyland started their private little war, I am sure that there are those who love Bill unconditionally, that's their choice and they must see things that others can’t.
There are also those who hate Bill with such a passion that he could give DM £100m to spend in January and it still wouldn’t be enough. (Please don’t reply by saying that will never happen; I know. It is an extreme example to make a point). Then there are those in-between.
The extreme haters claim that any other chairman would be better than Bill, they would rather be saddled with the £700m debt that the Glazers burdened United with when they took over, or a chairman that like Fahim, the guy that took over Pompey with loads of big promises and then had no money (BK Mk 2 perhaps).
They want us to increase our debt buy £50m every transfer window so that we can spend as much as all those bigger and better run clubs around us.
They will dismiss figures because they were 07-08 figures whilst quoting figures from 07-08 themselves (O’Keefe, maybe you should read the KEIOC article properly).
Finally they insist that the club has progressed in spite of BK... he doesn’t pick the team, correct. But he does get heavily involved in the negotiations that bring players to the club on lower wages than they were demanding. Big players like Distin, Arteta, Pienaar, Saha, Bilyaletdinov could all have gone to other clubs on much more money, but they don’t. Why? Maybe they think that Everton is a well run club.
Now me, I want Bill gone, but I want him to go when the right replacement is found, not when the first conman with £-signs in his eyes knocks on the door before moving on to Notts Co and getting investigated by the FA.
And stop slagging each other off because you can’t make a proper argument. I’m guessing Michael hasn’t read this yet, he closes threads down for less.
The whole ground move situation has caused a massive divide between the fans. All we have to go off now on DK, is the information from the public enquiry. This information was different to what was told to the fans by the board prior to the ballot.
They may have acted with good intentions and told us what they were told, but frankly I’m not interested now, it’s done. The ground move, however, is not done. My point is, in light of the current facts, would Kirkby still get a 59% "yes" vote?
Put your BK opinions to one side and ask yourself in the short, medium and long-term is Kirkby right for Everton? If not, what are you willing to do about it?
For those who say there is nothing you can do you are wrong. Without the fans the club doesn’t exist. Divide and conquer is what they have thus far achieved.
We should have had a full independent survey into redeveloping GP, cost, timescale, future revenue etc.
We should have been given some viable options in the City from LCC to again assess costs, timescale, future revenue etc. Even if we never had the money, we should have had a concrete option.
We haven’t. All we have on the table is DK or stay where we are for now. I know which I would prefer.
"They will dismiss figures because they were 07-08 figures whilst quoting figures from 07-08 themselves (O’Keefe, maybe you should read the KEIOC article properly)"
Actually I did, but it's good to re-read it. But in this thread, I only quoted a more accurate figure from 07-08, so why the scorn?
Also Pugh, your idea that Bill is an ace negotiator with international footballers is a rather lame defence, when factoring into consideration the fact that he was in no position to negotiate a Deal of the Century with two corporate behemoths.
Actually I did, but it's good to re-read it. But in this thread, I only quoted a more accurate figure from 07-08, so why the scorn?
Also Pugh, your idea that Bill is an ace negotiator with international footballers is a rather lame defence, when factoring into consideration the fact that he was in no position to negotiate a Deal of the Century with two corporate behemoths.
I don't think it takes a genius to work out that we are in financial dire straits. The only reason that we still exist as a going concern is because we can hide the debts and appear to operate at a gain (albeit slight).
Companies House does not allow, I think, a company to operate at a loss for more than two fiscal years. (I think I recall my accountant telling me this.) In respect to this, didn’t the club record a slight gain of around £26,000 this year? As such, it then keeps the administrators away! But I think it's clear that we are skint and it's not going to get better any time soon.
Where will the money come from for the new stadium? How can the club make funds available to Moyes next year?
We are in a terrible predicament at a time when finances globally are decimated. Where any sort of investment is going to come from is a mystery and, if we have to put any serious money into a stadium (or other big venture), then it could be fatal.
So, whether the debt is at £70m or £39m — we can't service it sufficiently and it could lead to a disaster. COULD!
Companies House does not allow, I think, a company to operate at a loss for more than two fiscal years. (I think I recall my accountant telling me this.) In respect to this, didn’t the club record a slight gain of around £26,000 this year? As such, it then keeps the administrators away! But I think it's clear that we are skint and it's not going to get better any time soon.
Where will the money come from for the new stadium? How can the club make funds available to Moyes next year?
We are in a terrible predicament at a time when finances globally are decimated. Where any sort of investment is going to come from is a mystery and, if we have to put any serious money into a stadium (or other big venture), then it could be fatal.
So, whether the debt is at £70m or £39m — we can't service it sufficiently and it could lead to a disaster. COULD!
Thank you for proving my point about extreme haters refusing to acknowledge any arguments, David. I will actually support Chris Leyland by saying who is more likely to be accurate - Companies House in 07-08 who have no agenda, or KEIOC in 07-08 who have a rather big agenda? Your argument in that particular case is very shaky to say the least.
Secondly, I did not claim he was an ace negotiator, I simply answered the much asked question of "give an example of something good that BK has done?" Well, he has helped to negotiate favourable terms with several top name players at our club. The fact that you don’t want to hear something like that makes you come back with a pathetic retort shows how blinkered your view of what happens at Goodison really is.
Again thank you for proving my point. Please continue to do so in your next reply.
Secondly, I did not claim he was an ace negotiator, I simply answered the much asked question of "give an example of something good that BK has done?" Well, he has helped to negotiate favourable terms with several top name players at our club. The fact that you don’t want to hear something like that makes you come back with a pathetic retort shows how blinkered your view of what happens at Goodison really is.
Again thank you for proving my point. Please continue to do so in your next reply.
’Well he has helped to negotiate favourable terms with several top name players at our club.’
--------------------------
You’ve no idea of his input in negotiations... he could have been a complete and utter liability for all you know.
In fact, the terms of the Rooney deal suggest anything but an effective negotiator.
--------------------------
You’ve no idea of his input in negotiations... he could have been a complete and utter liability for all you know.
In fact, the terms of the Rooney deal suggest anything but an effective negotiator.
Actually, Ciaran, it is when you quotes from people like Piennaar "when I sat down with the chairman and he laid out his plans for the club, it really impressed me"
That does tend to give the impression that he was not a liability.
That does tend to give the impression that he was not a liability.
Steve, I wonder if what impressed Pienaar, was the world class stadium, 50-60,000 capacity, with one of the best traffic infrastructure’s and virtually free?
Brian, God I hope not, I quite like the lad.
Steve Pugh: another voice of reason being hung, drawn and quartered on here by the usual aggressive protagonists (who now think it enhances their case to refer to anyone who expresses a contrary opinion by their surname).
Interesting that the glass half-full people on here — amongst which I happily include myself — generally have the ability to remain polite and objective, whilst the half-empty mob can repeatedly be relied upon to debase their arguments with a mixture of personal insults and playground psychology.
I sometimes wonder if we all follow the same team? We certainly have nothing else in common.
Sure, things could be better, but are things really so bad? It’s just looking at things from different ends of the telescope. For example, I wonder how many Liverpool supporters criticised their team after they beat Hull 6-1 at home recently? Not many, if any I would wager.
Compare that with the voluminous bile on here from all the usual suspects after we ONLY beat them 4-0 away.
Does the word ’compromise’ have a place in their vocabulary?
I may not be a big fan of the Kirkby proposal and this Summer’s late, late show in the transfer market was tense if nothing else. But we ended up doing rather well out of it and will doubtless do well as a team again this season and improve on last year.
At least Kenwright cares. He’s been an Evertonian for much longer than most of us on here, so doubting his loyalty is ridiculous. Sure, he may want to make a bob or two... who wouldn’t? But he won’t sell the club he loves down the river to some anonymous Arab — and that pleases me.
This is Everton. We still stand for something don’t we? And if that means having to ’settle’ for fifth place and a FA Cup runners-up spot, I’m not unhappy with that.
Just look a few hundred yards across Stanley Park. Would you swap Kenwright for those two Yankees and their (lack of) dollars?
Interesting that the glass half-full people on here — amongst which I happily include myself — generally have the ability to remain polite and objective, whilst the half-empty mob can repeatedly be relied upon to debase their arguments with a mixture of personal insults and playground psychology.
I sometimes wonder if we all follow the same team? We certainly have nothing else in common.
Sure, things could be better, but are things really so bad? It’s just looking at things from different ends of the telescope. For example, I wonder how many Liverpool supporters criticised their team after they beat Hull 6-1 at home recently? Not many, if any I would wager.
Compare that with the voluminous bile on here from all the usual suspects after we ONLY beat them 4-0 away.
Does the word ’compromise’ have a place in their vocabulary?
I may not be a big fan of the Kirkby proposal and this Summer’s late, late show in the transfer market was tense if nothing else. But we ended up doing rather well out of it and will doubtless do well as a team again this season and improve on last year.
At least Kenwright cares. He’s been an Evertonian for much longer than most of us on here, so doubting his loyalty is ridiculous. Sure, he may want to make a bob or two... who wouldn’t? But he won’t sell the club he loves down the river to some anonymous Arab — and that pleases me.
This is Everton. We still stand for something don’t we? And if that means having to ’settle’ for fifth place and a FA Cup runners-up spot, I’m not unhappy with that.
Just look a few hundred yards across Stanley Park. Would you swap Kenwright for those two Yankees and their (lack of) dollars?
’Actually Ciaran it is when you get quotes from people like Pienaar "when I sat down with the chairman and he laid out his plans for the club, it really impressed me" '
-----------------------
Firstly, and most obviously, that gives no indication of his negotiating capacity... it simply suggests he can spin a good yarn...
And secondly, what plans?
-----------------------
Firstly, and most obviously, that gives no indication of his negotiating capacity... it simply suggests he can spin a good yarn...
And secondly, what plans?
Ahhh,
The old... my side are polite and objective argument and your side are the devil... in a cunningly (?) disguised ad-hominem which has nothing to do with the argument.
Classic Booth.
By the way, I can cite several recent instances were you were neither polite or objective — and personal — including a reference to contrary arguments as a ’lynch mob’... add to that the use of phrases like ’voluminous bile’ in the very post were you claim to be polite and objective.
The old... my side are polite and objective argument and your side are the devil... in a cunningly (?) disguised ad-hominem which has nothing to do with the argument.
Classic Booth.
By the way, I can cite several recent instances were you were neither polite or objective — and personal — including a reference to contrary arguments as a ’lynch mob’... add to that the use of phrases like ’voluminous bile’ in the very post were you claim to be polite and objective.
David Booth:
"At least Kenwright cares. He’s been an Evertonian for much longer than most of us on here, so doubting his loyalty is ridiculous. Sure, he may want to make a bob or two... who wouldn’t? But he won’t sell the club he loves down the river to some anonymous Arab — and that pleases me."
I hope that statement doesn't come back to haunt you.
"At least Kenwright cares. He’s been an Evertonian for much longer than most of us on here, so doubting his loyalty is ridiculous. Sure, he may want to make a bob or two... who wouldn’t? But he won’t sell the club he loves down the river to some anonymous Arab — and that pleases me."
I hope that statement doesn't come back to haunt you.
So do I, Jay! I do not want Everton to be owned by one. Do you?
Ciaran McGlone: I was referring to personal insults, not descriptive adjectives. But of course, you’ll do anything for a good scrap won’t you?
Ciaran McGlone: I was referring to personal insults, not descriptive adjectives. But of course, you’ll do anything for a good scrap won’t you?
And to stick to specifics Ciaran, I have to agree with your assertion that Kenwright can "spin a good yarn". If so, it got Pienaar to sign for us, and many others too no doubt. Perhaps he’s quite good at something after all?
That may be the case David, but I doubt he would retain much respect if those ’yarns’ turn out to be misrepresentations...
And I’m not so sure deception is a commendable trait... I’m not a believer in ’whatever the cost’...
And I’m not so sure deception is a commendable trait... I’m not a believer in ’whatever the cost’...
As usual, we digress: spinning a yarn to me implies more dreaming than deception. And Piennaar’s still here, as are many others he may well have spun similar ’yarns’ to.
Rooney and Lescott are the ONLY two significant departures during Kenwright’s tenure. Both were inevitable and unpreventable. Rooney forgot his roots whilst his head got too big for his boots. And Lescott was not unnaturally tempted by the doubling of his salary.
On the flip side, I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone about the ever-growing quality and quantity of very good players we now have on our payroll. Go back to the years immediately before Kenwright’s took over. Be honest, would anyone swap then for now? If so, please tell me why?
Rooney and Lescott are the ONLY two significant departures during Kenwright’s tenure. Both were inevitable and unpreventable. Rooney forgot his roots whilst his head got too big for his boots. And Lescott was not unnaturally tempted by the doubling of his salary.
On the flip side, I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone about the ever-growing quality and quantity of very good players we now have on our payroll. Go back to the years immediately before Kenwright’s took over. Be honest, would anyone swap then for now? If so, please tell me why?
David Booth: you yourself mentioned it: that brief period under Joe Royle — the last time we actually won something. That and having Kanchelskis running wild... far better than anything I have seen since.
But of course the question you pose is stupid: there ain't no such swopping going on. Try to be realistic please!
And why, in the name of all creation, do you have to cite kopite twats as part of your (previous) argument? For me, anyone doing that on an Everton site loses all credibility in an instant.
Pugh if you want to side with Leyland so be it, but I’m not going to accept that you're a moderate and that I am an extremist hater. Such labels are meaningless. You made a claim that you can’t prove, however in response to that, a recent poster I’Anson had a meeting with Elstone cancelled; the reason? he was negotiating the deal for Billy the Russian.
Pugh, by way of reconciliation I will apologise for my ad-hominem attack, but you must acknowledge that your characterisation of myself and other critics of Bill as extreme haters is an ad-hominem; as is claiming that even if he gave Moyes a generous transfer budget we will still hate him is characterising our criticisms of him as irrational. They are not and the truth is that there are many valid reasons to hate Bill, if you think were being harsh so be it.
In future let's not play the man but the ball.
In future let's not play the man but the ball.
David (Booth), it doesn't matter to me whether they’re Arab, Hindu, Chinese or Russian as long they run EFC with Financial competence and don't go to Kirkby, unlike the current incompetents.
IMO we don't need a billionaire on a profit-making mission, we just need some business nous and energy upstairs and not people who make statements like "What do I know about the running of the club? I’m only the chairman," and "Only Newcastle fans buy shirts".
IMO we don't need a billionaire on a profit-making mission, we just need some business nous and energy upstairs and not people who make statements like "What do I know about the running of the club? I’m only the chairman," and "Only Newcastle fans buy shirts".
I did Michael, but also tried to put it in context.
But was one glorious blip in a sadly typical period of underachievement wasn’t it?
It surely doesn’t compare with the current crop’s regular and more sustained European runs and our consistent four/five season establishment as the closest rivals to the so-called top four?
It’s not a stupid question either: I was simply trying to make the point that things are measurably better now then they were before Kenwright took over.
And my reference to the differing perspectives with regard to beating Hull is surely relevant. Some of the negative reaction on here to our win was incredible. I very much doubt if you’d have found anything like it from them after their 6-1 victory. Dismissing it with terrace references to Kopite twats isn’t balanced and completely ignores a validly-made question.
The point I was trying to make was that there is a lot of pessimism and criticism on here, even when things go right.
Once again you provide further evidence of the more negative correspondents’ tendency to revert to taunting and terrace talk instead of countering respectfully.
But was one glorious blip in a sadly typical period of underachievement wasn’t it?
It surely doesn’t compare with the current crop’s regular and more sustained European runs and our consistent four/five season establishment as the closest rivals to the so-called top four?
It’s not a stupid question either: I was simply trying to make the point that things are measurably better now then they were before Kenwright took over.
And my reference to the differing perspectives with regard to beating Hull is surely relevant. Some of the negative reaction on here to our win was incredible. I very much doubt if you’d have found anything like it from them after their 6-1 victory. Dismissing it with terrace references to Kopite twats isn’t balanced and completely ignores a validly-made question.
The point I was trying to make was that there is a lot of pessimism and criticism on here, even when things go right.
Once again you provide further evidence of the more negative correspondents’ tendency to revert to taunting and terrace talk instead of countering respectfully.
Michael: you’re also taking me out of context. My actual reference to the Joe Royle period was:
"This is consistently the best Everton side for almost quarter of a century — apart from a short, unsustained period under Joe Royle.
Can anyone remember how dire, predictable and toothless Everton were until Moyes took over?
We’re no pushovers now and have more than a few players who would seriously merit a place in any of the top four teams."
So please, is this not the best side for 25 years (with that one, brief, 6-month exception) and can you remember how dire and predictable we were?
"This is consistently the best Everton side for almost quarter of a century — apart from a short, unsustained period under Joe Royle.
Can anyone remember how dire, predictable and toothless Everton were until Moyes took over?
We’re no pushovers now and have more than a few players who would seriously merit a place in any of the top four teams."
So please, is this not the best side for 25 years (with that one, brief, 6-month exception) and can you remember how dire and predictable we were?
David (Booth), I dont think anyone can dispute our "on the pitch" results are significantly better than when PJ was here. However the only change has been David Moyes.
Kenwright presided over a disastrous Walter Smith period with his "I talk to Walter everyday" stance and but for the fans refusing to put up with it I’m sure Walter would still be here under Kenwright.
Moyes has had less financial support than any other top half Premier League manager during his reign so IMO he has succeeded despite Kenwright but the main frustration for most fans is that we have failed to capitalise by building on this success and how much longer can we "punch above our weight" without proper financial support.
Kenwright has been extremely lucky to preside over a period of large chunks of money being paid to the premier league teams and the sales of Rooney and Lescott.
Previous chairmen have not had that luxury.
Kenwright presided over a disastrous Walter Smith period with his "I talk to Walter everyday" stance and but for the fans refusing to put up with it I’m sure Walter would still be here under Kenwright.
Moyes has had less financial support than any other top half Premier League manager during his reign so IMO he has succeeded despite Kenwright but the main frustration for most fans is that we have failed to capitalise by building on this success and how much longer can we "punch above our weight" without proper financial support.
Kenwright has been extremely lucky to preside over a period of large chunks of money being paid to the premier league teams and the sales of Rooney and Lescott.
Previous chairmen have not had that luxury.
David Booth, forgive me if I’m a bit old-fashioned, but winning a trophy and playing some decent attacking football, albeit briefly, provides a better memory of real achievement than consistently being best of the rest and consistently failing to win a trophy, which is what we have now.
And as I said, the kopite stuff is so irrelevant; if Evertonians are looking for a higher standard in terms of performance, you should respect that for how it relates to Everton — not to any other team — and certainly not our hated rivals, rather than using kopite logic in a poor attempt to drive a wedge between Evertonians who think like you and Evertonians who don’t.
And as I said, the kopite stuff is so irrelevant; if Evertonians are looking for a higher standard in terms of performance, you should respect that for how it relates to Everton — not to any other team — and certainly not our hated rivals, rather than using kopite logic in a poor attempt to drive a wedge between Evertonians who think like you and Evertonians who don’t.
Jay: under Walter Smith I agree we played the worst football I have seen in all my time following Everton. He had to go.
Whether he would have been here now is not really true though.
I’m a firm believer in giving a manager time. You only have to look at Alec Ferguson to give that some creedence. Moyes too, after that 17th-spot season. Newcastle and Leeds provide any counter-evidence you need.
Under Walter Smith we just snowploughed, getting worse with almost every performance.
But dour and dull as he and his teams were, he was unoubtedly an honest man and the board were obviously mindful of that. I thought he should have gone long before he did, but admire the board sticking with him - as infuriating as it was at the time.
So yes, fan pressure may have contributed, but it was not THE sole factor. It may have taken a little longer, but he would have gone irrespective.
Whether he would have been here now is not really true though.
I’m a firm believer in giving a manager time. You only have to look at Alec Ferguson to give that some creedence. Moyes too, after that 17th-spot season. Newcastle and Leeds provide any counter-evidence you need.
Under Walter Smith we just snowploughed, getting worse with almost every performance.
But dour and dull as he and his teams were, he was unoubtedly an honest man and the board were obviously mindful of that. I thought he should have gone long before he did, but admire the board sticking with him - as infuriating as it was at the time.
So yes, fan pressure may have contributed, but it was not THE sole factor. It may have taken a little longer, but he would have gone irrespective.
Michael: we were 88 minutes from wining a trophy last year and beaten semi-finalists a year previously. Things ARE improving and it will come don’t you think?
And if using Liverpool as a means of comparison is irrelevant, please tell me which clubs I am allowed to use?
I rebuff your assertion, especially as you have again refused to answer the point I was making:
We beat Hull 4-0 and they beat Hull 6-1. Two thashings, by neighbouring clubs, within days of one another.
We were slated by several people on here and as you well know, I was suggesting that they would not have been.
So many negative people on here...
And if using Liverpool as a means of comparison is irrelevant, please tell me which clubs I am allowed to use?
I rebuff your assertion, especially as you have again refused to answer the point I was making:
We beat Hull 4-0 and they beat Hull 6-1. Two thashings, by neighbouring clubs, within days of one another.
We were slated by several people on here and as you well know, I was suggesting that they would not have been.
So many negative people on here...
David, I suppose you can only beat what is put in front of you, and if you are going to compare our result with the shites, the big difference, was that we beat Hull reserves and the shite beat their first team.
Brian, I know, but is there much difference between Hull’s ’first’ and ’second’ teams and we were away from home and missing a few too weren’t we?
We still thrashed them - yet people still complained on here!
We still thrashed them - yet people still complained on here!
Richard Jones, At least you knew where you were with Agent Johnson eh???? If memory serves me well, didn't he sell big Dunc under Walter's nose while we were actually playing Newcastle!!!!!!!! Let's bring someone else like him in then eh???
All people on here would love an owner who is going to provide funds, but I read an article that another 5 or 6 Arabs were looking at Premier League clubs... if that is the truth and let's say in 3-4 years time all clubs in the Prem have a RICH owner 3 clubs would still be relegated — what would the rich owner do then??
David, this side may be the best in 25 years on paper (I’d agree actually)....but until they show that on the pitch you’re eulogising is a little premature...
Apart from a fabulous game against AEK there’s been little to celebrate in terms of joined up football on the pitch..
No doubt you’ll come back with the ’we’ve won games on the trot’ — but wins through terrible football are, I would suggest, not what Goodison craves....
Apart from a fabulous game against AEK there’s been little to celebrate in terms of joined up football on the pitch..
No doubt you’ll come back with the ’we’ve won games on the trot’ — but wins through terrible football are, I would suggest, not what Goodison craves....
Ciaran, I agree, while a win is a win, some of the football has been woeful.
What makes it worse, is we have hardly had the most difficult start to the season, beaten by Fulham and Burnley, scraped through against Wigan and Pompey, a draw at home with Stoke, and our one good performance against Blackburn. Shouldn’t we (if we are as good as some of you make out) be beating everyone of them?
What makes it worse, is we have hardly had the most difficult start to the season, beaten by Fulham and Burnley, scraped through against Wigan and Pompey, a draw at home with Stoke, and our one good performance against Blackburn. Shouldn’t we (if we are as good as some of you make out) be beating everyone of them?
We're actualy 3 points off a relegation position. I'm not suggesting that will happen but i think it's a bit early to be hailing thus far anyway a success.
As for our much maligned chairman, he has to tell us how much he wants for the club, to not say leads to thinking that it's not for sale.
As for our much maligned chairman, he has to tell us how much he wants for the club, to not say leads to thinking that it's not for sale.
Fans who voted on the previous manifesto for Kirkby should vote again on here and other sites, and if the balance of opinion has changed we then should let BK know and inform him he's lost his mandate to move us. Then, if he chooses to ignore us, we should protest, and he will be forced to listen.
Jay Harris, I agree with you in your views on Bill Kenwright but why denigrade Walter Smith? He kept Everton in the Premier League under dire circumstances. He has been a winner throughout his career, and before anyone says that being an old firm manager is easy, remember Liam Brady, Lou Macari, Kenny Dalglish, Alex McLeish, John Barnes and the French guy who’s name I can’t recall. He also produced a Rangers team, including Laudrup and Gascoigne that played some fine football.
He was badly treated by Everton and doesn’t deserve the abuse he gets on this site.
Andy — the only response to that is Everton 0 Tranmere Rovers 3. Why he was not sacked after that debacle, no-one will ever know.
David, using that game as your arguement as the reason he should have been sacked, then should Moyes be sacked after Shrewsbury, Oldham, Bucharest?
Meant to say should Moyes have been sacked after each of these debacles?
Brian, for me that game is my own personal nadir, losing 3-0 to your lower league neighbours being out-played and out-fought at home. True there were other low points, but none lower than that for me.
Under Moyes, the disasters you brought up are abberations in an otherwise upwards curve; under Smith, we trod water.
Under Moyes, the disasters you brought up are abberations in an otherwise upwards curve; under Smith, we trod water.
Andy, I agree with you and did not feel I denigrated Walter Smith in any way but his results amd performances were woeful at Everton especially compared to his spell at Rangers.
Moyes by comparison under the same regime has been relatively successful and transformed the squad from has-beens or never-will-bes to young talented team who all play for each other.
David, I apologise if I gave’the impression that your criticisms are irrational, that was not my intention, I agree that there are many reasons to criticise. If you read my posts elsewhere I want Bill out, but only when the right replacement is found.
What I find irrational is some people's inability to accept that Bill has done some good things during his tenure at the club and that he should sell to the first Tom, Dick or Ari, that comes along. Would these people really prefer to be in the situation of Man Utd where they are paying more in debt coverage than they are in wages to their entire staff? Or making a loss of £42m like the RS did last year (although they tried to hide it and claim a profit, the losses showed up in the holding company)?
Personally I want Bill to keep the club where it is now, both financially and geographically, until an investor comes along with enough cash to buy a few quality players, but more importantly to have the business brain to lift our annual turnover to the sort of levels that Spurs enjoy. If we get that then Everton will really start to challenge to big 4. I will not accept City as bigger than us until they prove it on the pitch.
What I find irrational is some people's inability to accept that Bill has done some good things during his tenure at the club and that he should sell to the first Tom, Dick or Ari, that comes along. Would these people really prefer to be in the situation of Man Utd where they are paying more in debt coverage than they are in wages to their entire staff? Or making a loss of £42m like the RS did last year (although they tried to hide it and claim a profit, the losses showed up in the holding company)?
Personally I want Bill to keep the club where it is now, both financially and geographically, until an investor comes along with enough cash to buy a few quality players, but more importantly to have the business brain to lift our annual turnover to the sort of levels that Spurs enjoy. If we get that then Everton will really start to challenge to big 4. I will not accept City as bigger than us until they prove it on the pitch.
Alex, I was merely pointing out that in my eyes Johnson was no different from Kenwright, he was just a less palatable non-bullshitter and when he put the club up for sale, we knew how much, and that it definitely was up for sale. What was it Kenwright said "I’m looking for investment" and "No, I wont answer your question about how much I want. I’m bored with your question."
I think everyone’s missing the point here; why should an industry — any industry — have to rely on rich people essentially propping it up when that industry has never had so much cash to play with. I think the term ‘basket case’ applies to football...
How true, David: football’s gone mad and is all about money, money, money.
Sure, it’s always helped, but nowadays people don’t talk about winning any more — just how many millions it will make. And how ironic that, at a time when the so-called Premier League is literally awash with money... everyone except Chelsea and City are skint or owe multi-millions of pounds (or both).
Can’t wait until the first domino falls and we get back to the real world, where footballers — mere footballers — no longer earn as much in a month as most of us do in 10 - 20 years... Basket case is putting it mildly.
That’s why I want Everton to stay relatively as they are. We might not have Abramovic’s billions, but we do have principles and tradition and will still be here as Everton FC when the others begin to fall on their own swords.
Sure, it’s always helped, but nowadays people don’t talk about winning any more — just how many millions it will make. And how ironic that, at a time when the so-called Premier League is literally awash with money... everyone except Chelsea and City are skint or owe multi-millions of pounds (or both).
Can’t wait until the first domino falls and we get back to the real world, where footballers — mere footballers — no longer earn as much in a month as most of us do in 10 - 20 years... Basket case is putting it mildly.
That’s why I want Everton to stay relatively as they are. We might not have Abramovic’s billions, but we do have principles and tradition and will still be here as Everton FC when the others begin to fall on their own swords.
Having lit the blue touch paper, I sat back and watched the debate unfurl. A couple of points however to all those finance "experts" on here:
1. the only figures we can accept are the published accounts and not any of this "we are £70M to £80M in debt" because, until accounts are published and unless we have access to monthly management accounts, then we simply don’t know.
2. I merely presented the facts from the last published accounts.
3. Sorry for statign facts that Kenwright appointed Moyes and stuck by him when we finished 17th but alas it is the truth.
4. Sorry for comparing Moyes's consistency to Big Joe’s one year of success. If we are to be considered a big club then surely it is the league we should be judged on and not cups? Yes, Joe won our last trophy and we finished 6th the following year but Moyes has 5 top 7 finishes to his name in in 7 years.
There you go again, Chris, mixing Moyes's success as a manager and Kenwright's shortcomings as chairman.
Thank you, Chris, for letting us know that you are a wind-up merchant. In future, I shall pay no attention to your attention-seeking ways.
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1 Posted 08/10/2009 at 08:45:28
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...and the Yahoo report here
So who is right?