I watched the Wigan game yesterday and they played the ball out from defence with Bramble, Boyce, Diame, Thomas, Scharner etc. knocking the ball about on the deck and creating chances. That is down to Roberto Martinez and his philosophy of playing passing football. West Brom, Burnley etc can do it with weaker sides than ours, but no doubt people will point to the fact they struggled and we’re in Europe.

The point is we have better players who are capable, as shown in short spells here and there but never sustained periods. Regardless of who is on the treatment table. For some reason we don’t and some fans are growing disillusioned.

Passing and attractive football is an art, one which our manager doesn't have the renaissance for. We could and should be playing better fooball but Moyes is a grafter with no time for flair! It really does put you/me off watching the Toffees, don't it? :(

Yes, Gareth, what Moyes needs to do is say to Osman, "I want you to play good football today, I want you to beat people, like Messi, and spray the ball around, like Beckham. Hibbert, I want you to do more attacking than defending and be up and down like Glen Johnson, I want us to play like Barcelona today lads."

It doesn't work like that, Gareth. Hibbo has his strengths, which is defending, but to expect him to play brilliant football is ridiculous.

All these teams you mention who play good flowing football, where does it get them? And you can bet your life if they lost their better players to injury they wouldn't be knocking it around like they are now.

West Brom played great football until they got past the half-way line, lots of pretty football in triangles, but not much end product. Any team would struggle without their best players, it's just common sense. Look what's happend to Liverpool without Torres and Gerrard.

Ian Tunstead — I don’t think anybody is expecting Hibbo to play great football. I think Gareth is looking at the midfielders and striker to pass the ball about, which they are capable of.

You say look where it got West Brom but I wouldn’t put us in their category. Look where it has got Sunderland aginst the RS and Utd at Old Trafford. Wigan against Chelsea and City. Villa against RS and Chelsea.

Why should we accept for large parts of our performances the uneasy, incoherent hoofball when teams of a similar and lesser standard don’t?

Free kicks, corners and throw-ins is the sum total of our ways and means of attacking football at the minute.

Like I said, Peter, Liverpool struggled against Sunderland because they were without their two best players.

Also Sunderland have spent a lot of money over the last couple of seasons and made some very good buys. Catermole and Cana can match most teams especially a Liverpool midfield missing Mascherano and Gerrard playing Lucas and the young kid Spearing instead, who were awful.

Plus they only won because of a freak goal.

As for Villa, we all know they are a good side and that they are capable of beating the top sides because they have finished closely behind us the last couple of seasons and they have improved again since.

Their strongest 11 is available to play but ours isn't, when it is I'm sure you will see us getting results against the better sides.

Would you all prefer we lost playing pretty football or won/drew digging in and grafting?

We can, and do play attractive football when we have two good passers in the side. When we don’t have two passers in the side, we tend to try a few passes early on, give the ball away, lose confidence and then hoof it.

Everton are getting some points, albeit against teams we should be beating, especially at home. Our goalscoring in the Prem is poor this season which was predictable without our ace playmaker Arteta. The other midfielders just don’t match up.

The poor passing and tackling is apparent to everyone except Moyes but the same culprits still keep getting picked. The soccer is quite good but not good enough to set us aside from the others.

I don’t expect anywhere above mid-table until January when hopefully the return of Jags and Mikel, along with full match fitness of Yaks, will start to pay dividends.

2 points:

1. People who complain that we don’t have a go at teams also tend to feel we should play 4-4-2. But... that would mean Moyes dropping Cahill/Fellaini or playing them in a two-man central midfield. He won’t do either. Fellaini is so hopelessly limited that he has to be hidden away in a packed midfield. And this guy cost €15 mill? Nice work, Moyes!

2. Moyes has overloaded his squad with defenders. Heitinga is looking like an expensive indulgence. Could that money not have been spent on another SKILFUL midfielder, perhaps even someone with PACE?

When Jags is fit, where on earth does Heitinga fit into the first 11? He will be accommodated, just like the other white elephant Fellaini, and Moyes’s pets Cahill, Osman, Hibbert etc. But it will be at the expense of quality football. Sad, so sad.

And as long as the Kenwright/Moyes/Sycophantic Media axis prevails, nothing will change.

Did Villa beat the RS and Chelsea by just "digging in and grafting" or did they take the game to the opposition to beat them? Spurs againt the RS? I’m using these teams as examples because they are our rivals for a European place. Wigan beat Chelsea at home and Villa away with a side not as good as ours by playing good football. Believe it or not, you can win a game by playing football.

Is it too much to expect our team when we have the ball to pass and move to carve out chances? Or are we only allowed to do that when Arteta and Pienaar are fit? Fellaini, Rodwell, Bily and Osman are all capable of passing the ball to feet.

John - I agree

Let's get one thing straight: Moyes has done a superb job for us but some people think he can do no wrong and to me the past two games have been his fault more than anyone else's, he is negative and I am sick of seeing players played out of position.

He has spent £25M on two players whom he claims he does not know their best position in Bily and Felli, one he bought as a holding midfield player but has played him there no more than five times! So much for all this homework shit he does before signing players.

It is about time he had some balls and went for shite teams at home instead of this "keep it tight" shit. We had well enough fit players to see off these last two teams and coming out with comments about how we are going to take a while to get back to form is not good enough either.

Gareth,

No, the money we spent on Heittinga wouldn’t have bought a pacy skillful midfielder, nor would sucha a player be on affordable wages.

They’re an expensive commodity.

It's a good thing Moyes has the sense to see the bigger picture, unlike a lot of the fans.

Gareth; by the time Jagga gets fit (and we have no idea when that will be), correct me if I'm wrong but Yobo will be away playing in the African nations so it will be very important having Heitinga around, he is also a step up from Hibbert for the RB position and good cover for Neville while he's out, I cant see your argument.

As for a SKILLFULL midfielder, Moyes tried to get one from Valencia but it didn't quite work out because the player wanted to stay and prove himself there... these things can happen in football.

Peter, as for all this great football Villa play against the top teams, from what I can remember, all of their goals have come from corners.

And Dennis, Moyes does have the players — it's just most of the better ones are injured, but we can't afforD to be like Spurs and City and have superstars sitting on the bench.

Paul; Jagga was a holding midfielder at Sheffield but he was crap for us there but went on to become player of the season for us at CB. Moyes will have a good idea where he wants Bily and Heitinga to play but is it not worth trying them out in different positions like Jaggs?

Utter tripe, Ian. Moyes sets his team out not to lose & to try & steal a goal to nick the points. It’s the sort of tactics that teams battling at the bottom of the table might employ when they know the opposition are a class above — we do it against these teams & don’t even seem to be all that effective at it any more. We are making mediocre teams look good — but that’s ok because we’ve got a couple of players out injured — poppycock!

Yes, Dennis, and those tactics worked brilliantly the season we finished 4th, winning 1-0 every game, and we would have won 1-0 again only for an uncharacteristically sloppy bit of defending.

With our injury list and our most creative players out, I can't blame Moyes for the way he has been setting his team out because, frankly, with the players we have left, I'm not sure this team is as good as the team that finished 4th, at least we had Arteta playing.

Our injury list:
Our most expensive and perhaps our best striker, Yakubu.
Our most expensive player in our history, Fellaini.
Our best and most creative player for the past 5 years, Arteta.
Our player of the past few months including last season and second most creative player, Pienaar.
Our player of the season and best defender, Jaggs. I wouldn't call it a couple of players injured.

Forgot to add our Captain to the list who had a fantastic season last season.

Any team would struggle with that kind of loss, even a team with the riches and depth of squad Chelsea has. I'd love to see Chelsea play without:
Drogba
Anelka
Lampard
Malouda
Ballack
and Terry

I doubt you would see the flowing football then somehow, there already getting beat by the likes of Villa.

Look what happend to Liverpool with just ’a couple of players missing’ they were no better than Everton. Good players make good teams, but if the good ones are missing and you replace them with average or poor Prem players you will get average or poor performances, it's not rocket science.

Moyes has to get the best out of what he's got which is what he is doing. Unfortunately, not only is our 1st choice midfield out injured but our 2nd 3rd and 4th choice players were all out as well.

Ian, Stop making excuses. I have seen Tony Hibbert play some decent stuff with the right man in front of him. I have seen Osman play some decent stuff in the middle although not against the top sides.

We had more than enough good players to take on Wolves, playing the ball on the floor. If Moyes is not confident of winning then he will turn to pub football tactics. I know we are not relegation fodder anymore and he has brought hope but I am getting fed up watching awful football.

I don’t remember Alan Ball having to execute 70-yard passes to be great. Just give and go, it is tactics not players that are the problem.

You see, whilst everybody bleats on about the ’small squad’, it is actually quite a decent squad of good players and we are able to field a good side despite the injuries.

As we were short in the middle, then why was Osman stuck out on the wing? His fans say he is best in the middle and Moyes could have played him there. Gosling would be perfectly adequate on the right against Wolves.

I am still bloody angry that my time and money was completely wasted on Saturday (not to mention four hours of driving) to watch that performance orchestrated by a gutless manager.

School of Science my arse!

Rob, I don't know how you can bring Alan Ball into this, that's like me saying we should play like Pele and Maradona, it's easier said than done.

The truth is Osman can't give and go because he's not quick enough or good enough in possession. Are you trying to tell me that Moyes's team talk before the game is to tell the players just to hoof the ball anywhere up field but, when Arteta and Pienaar are playing, he suddenly says, "Right lads, let's play football today"? Somehow, I don't think so.

Fair point about Gosling playing on the wing instead of Osman — I would have done the same but a lot of fans on here don't rate Gosling and maybe Moyes doesn't rate him as highly as Osman but that's his opinion. Either way, I don't think playing Gosling would have made that much difference to the game. Surely a Dutch International, Heitinga, is better on the ball than Gosling. I can't blame Moyes for his decision.

How many people would like to see Jagielka given a run up front? Or to see how Yakubu fares in defence? Probably no-one because we realise that is not their natural game and it will more than likely result in us losing. So why do we suggest Moyes should get his team to play flowing one-touch passes all over the park? It is not his natural game.

Moyes's strength is in getting his players to play in a set system and style. This style, while not very attractive to watch, is what has got us into Europe for the past few seasons, so it obviously works. While we would all like to push further on and finish in the top 4, playing attractive football is no guarantee that this will happen, in fact it could be just as easily argued that trying to play like Barcelona could see us slide down the table instead of up.

While we all want to see the pretty football, the manager's job is to get points on the board. And more often than not, the current system achieves that.

With our last two games ending in dissapointing home draws against teams we should beat at our place (Stoke and Wolves), I couldn't help but think that the teams we put out had no balance to them and the side won't get that back until we have Pienaar, Arteta and Neville back from injury.

Once we get them back, I believe that the balance will return and I think you will see the return of passing football and composure in our midfield as it's just not there at all right now.

My wife jumped on the Burnley Bandwagon at the start of the season. The woman knows nothing about football — or practically any sport for that matter.

She said to me this weekend, "Burnley is so much more fun to watch [compared to Everton]. We pass it. You guys just kick it up to the striker."

I love our team and its potential. I love Moyes and what he’s done. But the lady has a point. And if she can see this, why the hell can’t Moyes?

Injuries or not, I agree with the sentiment. Can we please just have a go at it? It’s getting damn frustrating!

If this continues I think I’m going to start a petition to install Tony Marsh as Manager... Or maybe my wife?

As Mark Hughes said the weekend the top 4 aren’t invincible. If you sit back against the top sides and invite them on, or play long balls that don’t stick continually conceding posession they will keep coming and eventually get a goal. If you have a go at them you may get a goal and a result, or you could still lose.

Sunderland played a 4-4-2 at Old Trafford and were unlucky not to get the 3 points. They beat the RS at home, and apart from the beach ball they hit the post and were the better side deserving to win.

Spurs played 4-4-2 at home to the RS and beat them.

Wigan beat Villa away and Chelsea at home.

City beat Arsenal and were unlucky not to beat Utd.

Villa beat the RS away and Chelsea at home.

All these teams had a go at the opposition. They never got 10 men behind the ball and looked to snatch one from a set piece. They went for it and were rewarded.

As I’ve said before if Arteta and Pienaar are out, Rodwell, Fellaini, Bily and Osman are all capable of passing the ball to feet.

If any top side loses their key players they wont be as effective but I can’t see Ancellotti or SAF saying right boys such and such is injured so we’re going to just hoof it up today and try and snatch one.

Ian we may have Arteta and Pienaar out and if we had played one of the bigger sides you could certainly have an excuse but we have played two poor teams at home and played one up front, right backs in midfield, central midfielders on the wing, its just poor and negative, we have enough quality to go for these teams without those two.
We have spent a fair bit of money on players he does not know where to play.
When we pay £15M or £10M on a player you want a fairly quick impact for that price, not to be told wait till next season for them to start showing a bit of form.
Its the same with everything, we start the season and he tells us the aim firstly is to stay up FFs have some ambtion.
As I have said before he has been superb for us and has had the credit thrown at him but you cannot deny the football this season has been dire and negative.

Peter you are right all those teams you have mentioned did have a go at the big 4, but that is because they had the tools to do so by having more or less a fully fit squad to pick from, and most of their key players available. But lets be honest all the teams youve mentioned apart from Wigan, such as Spurs, City and Villa have very good sides capable of breaking the top 4, they have spent a lot of money. If anything apart from Chelsea all of the top 4 sides have lost key players and are not as strong this season so i am not surprised if the other teams get more results against the top 4.

Of course Moyes tells his side to go out there and play football to feet, but unfortunatley they are not up to it

Paul you are right i cant deny the football had been dire but you can not expect us no play brilliant football when he has osmen in the side and 2 defencive midfielders on, and only Gosling and jo fully fit to come on and make an impact.

It is also good management by Moyes telling the fans to give players a chance to settle, because Moyes knows fans are only to keen to jump on a players back within the 1st couple of games if the player isnt scoring every game, it also takes a lot of pressure off the player. Bily has already got a few fans giving him stick saying hes not quick enough or he cant beat a man but they seem to forget that he scored and has half a dozen assists already.

Jesus !
Iv’e read some bollox on here before. (Some of it my own probably).
But to state we are not, or can’t play passing footy because of injuries is idiotic.
Most of the players mentioned have been out long term, correct me if i’m wrong.
But haven’t we played some joined up footy already this season to great effect.
To suggest we have no players capable of passing a football is laughable, the first thing you are taught as a footballer at a young age is to pass a football to player in the same coloured shirt.
It’s tactics that dictate how we play, not the players abillity to kick a football along the ground to a team mate.

Im not sure if many of you fans have played football at any level by some of your comments. Yes we are ’’taught as a footballer at a young age to pass a football to player in the same coloured shirt.’’ Its very simple when it comes to passing backwards and sideward but when it comes to moving forward it a different thing all together. Opposition defenders dont just allow you to pass it through them they close down quickly an put pressure on the attacking player.

To move forward the attacking player must have the abilty and control to create space for himself and have the vision and awarnes to pick out the right pass. This might be easy for the likes of Osmen in lower leagues when the game is slower and defenders dont have as much quality but in the prem he struggles to do it as do many of our other players. Osmen is fine against lower league opposition when pienar or Arteta are around and make the forward passing, but Osmen can only do the simple things.

Dave yes we have played some good football this season but only with a midfied of Bily Fellaini Pienar and Rodwell who can all keep the ball comfortably and can make forward passes.

Ian.
Yes i have played football. At a good standard actually, albeit amature.
I have also coached teams with some success.
Let’s look at this from another angle.
It is up to the players who DO NOT have the ball, to create the space for the player who DOES HAVE the ball to enable the pass.
In other words. Movement off the ball creates space, it pulls defenders out of position and upsets defensive formations.
Arsenal are brilliant at it when playing well.
They attack in numbers with players flying down both flanks as well as the middle of the park giving many options.
When executed correctly it is devastating and defenders can’t cope with it.
I played in defence myself and believe me, the one thing you hate is pace coming at you in numbers, you don’t know which way to turn.
You don’t have to have world class players to do this, just the tactical nouse to make it work.
The shite do it. Watch Pepe the clown charge to the edge of his box looking for a quick option to start an attack.
After 71/2 years we are still left scratching our heads as to why we are so inconsistent. We can pass the ball. Moyes just has to let his players believe in it.

Wigan’s first 11 are not as good as ours. They lost Heskey, Catermole and Valencia arguably there best players. Roberto Martinez comes in and there team play passing football (as he did at Swansea with worse players), regardless of which members of their squad are in the first 11. They beat Villa away and Chelsea at home.

Ian- We had Rodwell, Fellaini, Osman, Bily, Gosling, Heitinga and Cahill all available to play in the midfield Saturday. 3 of the 4 you listed. All are capable of passing a ball and in my opinion better than the Wigan midfield.

So why can’t we play football, when Wigan can? Forget Pienaar and Arteta, you can only p**s with the c**k you have got. The lads listed above are more than capable of playing football so why don’t they? Is it their fault? Is the manager responsible?

Dave - You are right about movement, players need to show for the ball and make a run into space for a pass to be played.

Dave you make it all sound so easy, if what you say is correct why arnt you playing at the highest level or managing up at the top. By the sounds of things you have been taught to pass and move from a young age so surley nobody can get the ball off you and you must be able to create all kinds of chances, you would be wasted in defence. Try playing in midfield and put all your theories to the test.

Peter we will see where Wigan end up at the end of the season. Yes Wigans first 11 are not as good as our first 11, but our first 11 are not available, i would say only 5 of our first 11 are available.

Also there was only 2 of the 4 i mentioned available which means we will be lucky to string 2 passes together. Fellaini wasnt available untill the 2nd half and he made a big difference when he came on, but the lad had just come back from an operation.

Bily created some great chances that on another day would have been finished and Rodwell is still young and is not always consitant and plays best with an experiences member of the team ,preferebly Arteta or Neville.

Ian
Yes we have all played and don’t be so patronising. If we have players in the squad who are not capable of giving a pass and moving then who the hell picked them.

This team is good enough to thump Wolves, injuries or not.

Moyes is too frightened of losing. I could understand that with the post - Rooney squad. In fact we did very well but the current players deserve better tactics because they are too small to play hump and hope.

Maybe you have not played and don’t understand why teams have a midfield?

Sorry to sound patronising rob but i just cant understand how you cant see the obvious.

We do not have a devine right to beat Wolves even with our best team available but its obviously going to make things difficult if half a dozzen of our best players are missing.

With the players we have missing im not sure if this team is much better than the post rooney squad as i said at least we had Arteta in that team.

Yes i understad why teams have a midfield but the fact is 2 of our midfielders were defenders and Osmen has never been able to cut it in the prem but is forced to play because there is nobody else.

Ian.
Don’t talk bollox.
Some of the greatest managers in football have been shite players.
Alex Ferguson, Arsen Wenger, our very own Harry Catterick.
You don’t have to have played at the highest level to understand football.
And no. We don’t have a divine right to beat Wolves.
But I and other supporters have the divine right to air our views when we are shite.
And the reason i am not playing at the top level is I am nearly 50. But can still pass a ball along the deck to another player in a same coloured shirt.

Dave i think you are exagerating slightly when you call those managers shite players, they played at a far higher level than amature level. But they did realise they didnt have greatest of ability, but know how to spot talent.

I dont get what point you are trying to make. I understand and agree with you that we were shite and you have the right to air your views, but the point i am trying to make is the reason we were shite was not down to Moyes telling the players to hoof the ball. The players are told to pass the ball i have heard Moyes say so in interviews but the players he has available at the moment are not as good as the ones we have missing. There passing, vision and awarness skill and speed and many other attributes are inferior which means they get caught out much easier and make more mistakes.

If you dont agree with his team selection and negative formation fair enough but you should take into account the other options he had which were an unfit Yak an unfit Fellaini an off form Jo and a 19 year old Gosling. Moyes couldnt have changed it very much in all fairness

Your still talking bollox !
Do you remember Laurie Macmenami (spelling ).
Never played footy in his life, but still managed at the highest level and won trophies to boot.
The team play to Moyes instructions. End of....
If he can’t put a team together after nearly 8 years that can pass a football then he can fuck off as far as i’m concerned.
I’m now off on me jollys to Florida for 2 weeks.
Speak to ya when i’m back.
NSNO.

You’re no longer making any sense at all, Ian. Moyes’ teams have never consistently played decent football & you seems to recognise this when you claim : "those tactics worked brilliantly the season we finished 4th" - although as I recall it seemed to be a 4th place we couldn’t give away in the second half of that season. Moyes has had over 7 years to assemble this squad, so if most of his players can’t pass the ball or perform effectively at this level then he is still culpable. However, I don’t believe that is the case - I suspect that when we have all the players back that you mention the style of football will still be the same & we will only see glimpses of the true potential of these players for maybe a handful of matches, same as every season. The way Moyes teams play will not enable Everton to win any silverware & will become increasingly less effective. So whether it’s tactics or players, the buck stops with Moyes - I don’t see any valid excuses after all this time.

Hope you have a good holiday Dave, another manager you missed who never played at the highest level or any level i think is Jose Mouriniho, but i think we were getting away from the point i was trying to make.

Dennis what team does play consistantly good football? The season we finished 4th was a near miracle, that team was very poor as proved by the 17th place finish the season before with Rooney and Graveson so to try and take credit away from it is a little unfair, yes the team ran out of steam towards the end but that was to be expected for such a small squad.

With the odd exception the team and its players were relagation favourites every season, but Moyes is slowly piece by piece trying to assembled a sarting 11 that can compete against the best, which he has done, only 1 or 2 positions he has not yet improved and that is RW (Osmen) and maybe RB (Hibbert) we will have to see where Heitinga establishes himself.

In the last couple of seasons we have reached an FA cup final beating Liverpool and Man U only to be beaten in the final against a chelsea side that were cheated against the eventual European Champions and we had the spine of our team out injured.

We have also reached the semi final of the league cup again being beaten by Chelseas millions. The same season we came top of the group winning every game in the UEFA cup beating the eventual winners and super cup winners Zenit and also beating a few other teams who are now doing well in the Champions League, i think Alkmar just got a draw against Arsenal tonight, Im sure Hamburg wernt far off winning the league in Germany and made the Champions league. We were only beaten on penalties against a good Florentina side who are doing vey well in the Chamions League at the moment beating Liverpool and again winning tonight.

The other teams we have lossed to in Europe have usualy gone on to greater things, Villa Real reaching the smis of the CL Standard Liege are also doing well. These team are proving themselves to be some of the best in Europe and yet we are beating them or at least holding our own.

As far as i am concerned with a fully fit squad and a little luck it wont be long before we see a trophy arrive.

You say ’’Moyes has had over 7 years to assemble this squad, so if most of his players can’t pass the ball or perform effectively at this level then he is still culpable.’’

Most of his players can perform effectively. His defence performs effectively conceding very few goals. His striker has been performing effectively scoring 6 or 7 goals so far this season, and Yakubu didnt do too bad before his injury. The midfield also performs effectively when fit Unfortunatly against Wolves most of our creative players were not available, no Arteta Pienar Fellaini or Neville.

If Moyes doesnt have the funding for a bigger and better squad i cant see how the buck stops with him. It sounds like we are in crisis because of a couple of draws even though we havnt lost in 7 games and have only conceded 2 or 3 in that time and scored about 12 or 13. You should have a look at whats happend to Liverpool and theyve only lost 2 or 3 of their better players and look like they are going to loose 5 on the bounce. Things could be a lot worse.

Ian, Dennis is right about the season we finished 4th. We were so lucky to end up on the top half of the table at all come the end of the season. Every time we dropped points, those around us did exactly the same. If it had been Villa or Spurs in our place we would have been jumping up and down shouting about conspiracies.

I agree with you that the system we have been using has been very good for us in the last couple of seasons. Yes, we have been very consistant over the last couple of seasons and have improved on what has been a very limited budget compared to other clubs. And yes, this we have a lot of our better players out injured. But, Spurs, Vila and City have clicked this season, not just in terms of money of the quality of their players, but in terms of their aproach to the game and their ideas in how it should be played.Everton, for all our consistancy and supposed growth over the last couple of seasons, have learned absolutely nothing by comparison. Right now, we’re stuck in eleventh, looking like we couldn’t outthink our under twelve team. And before you go telling me that they all have loads more money than us, Spurs have had loads more than us for several seasons now without getting anywhere before this season? And what has changed? They now have a manger who, like him or loathe him, has them playing positive football. And before you go telling me that our best players are injured, Villa have lost their best defender and midfielder from last season and have’nt suddenly become one dimensional and lacking in ideas this season.

Ask yourself this Ian, even with Arteta, Jags, Yak and Pienaar all fully fit and back in the squad, do you really think that Moyes will stop being so cautious? Do you think that we will really see us suddenly playing like Barcelona week in week out? Yes, we will improve, of course we will, but caution and a lack of real tactical creaitvity is ingrained in Moyes and I don’t thinmk we will ever see the skill and the flair that the current squad is so capable of. Right now for me Ian, that’s the most depressing part of the current situation.

Kieran as far as im concerned you create your own luck, and the league table doesnt lie, you cant be lucky for 38 games. The only time luck comes into it is when refs make poor decisions, or if players make uncharacteristic mistakes or if a team suffers a lot of long term injuries to key players. Perhaps a freak occurance like a beach ball being on the pitch. Either way It seems to me that this season we are the ones who have been unlucky.

As i remember it we had a vey poor team the season we finished 4th that should have been fighting relegation but Moyes found a system to get the best out of what we had, yes it wasnt prity and we won a lot of games just by the 1 goal, but i also remeber from that season that only 1 or 2 teams giving us a good kicking, we matched most teams, and luck never came into it. If other teams around us dropped points then it was because they lost fair and square, and thats why nobody jumped up and down shouting conspiracy theories, because we deserved to be where we were.

Ask yourself the question Kieran if Moyes doesnt have the attacking options available how can he put out an attacking formation? Yakubu cant play 90 mins, and Jo is out of form everybody else who are realistically going to play are defensive minded.

But yes when our better players return and are fully fit i do believe that Moyes wont have to be cautious, i think of the times we have had a fully fit team last season destroying villa 3-1 in the cup or the seaon we came top of the group in Europe and being unbeaten in about 16 games, and times we were thrashing teams 7-1 .

I dont think we will be playing like Barcelona because only Barcelona are good enough to play like Barcelona, but we will be playing better football the Villa Spurs and City that is for sure.