The Mail Bag
Let's have a real go!
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Most of the time our football is crap. Did we track Bily and Heitinga before we bought them, or were they panic buys as we were late in selling Lescott? I am certainly not attacking those two, as it is too early to judge, and I am confident Bily has the intelligence and ability to blend in well after another dozen games or so.
Moyes just makes me so angry when we are at home against "weaker" teams and we have the attacking potential to beat these teams, and yet it is almost as if Moyes won't let our attackers fully off the leash because he is scared of leaving the back door open (but look at the strength of our defence)!!!
Surely at home, you really must be prepared to have a go at teams (whoever they are) if you have enough confidence in your own players.
I try to put myself in the position of players like Bily and Pienaar and think, "Jesus, is this why I have been brought to this club? To track back endlessly to help out a defence which is perfectly capable of looking after itself?"
Why should people like Bily and Arteta have to think about defending? No wonder the likes of Pienaar and other forwards/midfielders are taken off long before the 90 minutes is up. They should be constantly threatening the opposition, not endlessly tracking back (and wasting energy) to help the defence.
Moyes would rather stop the opposition from winning, rather than try to win the game himself. Our game plan seems to be the same thing every time — try and nick one, then defend for all it's worth. Against Lisbon, we will defend, defend, defend, and if we come away with a draw, Moyes will say what a great result. OK. but will that attitude win you cups and championships?
Let them be scared of you, don't you be scared of them. We could have beaten Wolves, and I blame Moyes for that. If we have aspirations for cup wins, or to finish higher than 5th or 6th, then we really must be prepared to take the fight to the opposition.
I really wonder what must be going through the minds of some of the new arrivals, when they see the negativity out there on the field, and look at the quality that there is available. Once Arteta and Jagielka are back, if we don't start winning the majority of our games in style, I can see certain members of the squad thinking, "With this approach, we are not going to win anything; at the next window, I'm off!"
For god's sake, Moyes, take the reins off, and let's have a real go!!!
John Brennan, Posted 20/10/2009 at 02:10:44
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John - Are you for real.
Your criticism as now stretched to Davey making our midfield & frowrds defend occasionally - my goodness how negative.
If you remember watching Newcastle when Keegan was in charge or maybe Swindon Town when they wer ein the premier lieague, that’s what happens to teams who rely on defenders only to defend.
The whole point of midfield players is that they have to be able to do both jobs, not just attack for a bit then have a rest (otherwise you end up with a team of Robinho’s who look great going forward but concede too many goals for it to make any difference.
This is by far the most ludicrous criticsm I have read on here this week and that’s saying something.
You even start off by criticising Davey for buying 2 players, at least on eof whch is getting rave reviews every time he plays!
Your criticism as now stretched to Davey making our midfield & frowrds defend occasionally - my goodness how negative.
If you remember watching Newcastle when Keegan was in charge or maybe Swindon Town when they wer ein the premier lieague, that’s what happens to teams who rely on defenders only to defend.
The whole point of midfield players is that they have to be able to do both jobs, not just attack for a bit then have a rest (otherwise you end up with a team of Robinho’s who look great going forward but concede too many goals for it to make any difference.
This is by far the most ludicrous criticsm I have read on here this week and that’s saying something.
You even start off by criticising Davey for buying 2 players, at least on eof whch is getting rave reviews every time he plays!
Chris, how can it be ludicrous to suggest Everton should try and attack more? Are you happy with Everton playing 6 defenders at home to Wolves? Do you think Moyes doesn’t deserve any criticism when his £15 million man is sat on the bench whilst he plays a right back, who has stated his preferred position is centre half, in midfield? And if Fellaini is not good enough to get in the midfield ahead of Rodwell and Heitinga then why the fuck did Moyes waste £15 million on him?
This thread just states the obvious but I don’t see why Moyes can’t see it.
This thread just states the obvious but I don’t see why Moyes can’t see it.
Fellaini just had his wisdom teeth done. It’s a miracle he was even on the bench, Alan.
I agree the line up he started with was wrong, but Moyes changed it at half time.
If you look at the wider picture there is a lot of moaning going on ( some justified ) but we are unbeaten in 7 games of which 5 were victories and with the top 7 at present all losing games, there is time to get in there..
That said, I would have expected a minimum of 4 points from those last 2 home games and the next 3 league matches against Bolton, Villa and West Ham, we need 7 points minimum before a run of 4 tough matches against Manure, Beach Boys, Spurs and Chelsea.
I agree the line up he started with was wrong, but Moyes changed it at half time.
If you look at the wider picture there is a lot of moaning going on ( some justified ) but we are unbeaten in 7 games of which 5 were victories and with the top 7 at present all losing games, there is time to get in there..
That said, I would have expected a minimum of 4 points from those last 2 home games and the next 3 league matches against Bolton, Villa and West Ham, we need 7 points minimum before a run of 4 tough matches against Manure, Beach Boys, Spurs and Chelsea.
Oh well Chris how dare anyone criticise your beloved Moyes, our saviour! Moyes will never change - his nature is to be totally defensive. We have far too many defenders - if one goes or gets injured, he immediately replaces them. If it is a midfielder he doesnt. Against Wolves he had 6 outfield defenders leaving 4 to cover the rest of the park. How did he ever imagine that would work? And Alan Clarke is right, to do it against a crap side like Wolves is scandalous.
But that is what you get with Moyes and always will. Some Evertonians seem content with watching shite defensive football every week as long as our league position is ok. The majority of us, however, long for the days of fast attacking exciting football. But while people like you Chris continue to see Moyes as our Messiah, those days are a long way off.
But that is what you get with Moyes and always will. Some Evertonians seem content with watching shite defensive football every week as long as our league position is ok. The majority of us, however, long for the days of fast attacking exciting football. But while people like you Chris continue to see Moyes as our Messiah, those days are a long way off.
Karl - Fellaini was not fit, that was why he was on the bench. I was not Felli’s biggest fan last season, despite the goals, but he has looked a far better player when he has come on for 15 minutes at the end of matches this season than he has when starting this or last season. Some of that will have been injuries, some of it getting used to the Premier league and som e of it getting used to his teammates. Either way I think Moyes is right to edge him in. We have the squad to cope, now, and he will be a more effective player if the pressure is off.
John - I don’t think the problem was the midfield on Saturday. We created enough to chances to win 3 matches on Saturday, we just missed them all. You get games like that - Stoke was the same, but we are edging closer to good form. Cutting edge is what is missing and we have the players. Saha has been shouldering all the responsibility of scoring our goals, but once Cahill puts a couple away and Yak nicks one somewhere we will start to be more effective in front of goal.
Our midfield is creative; Arteta, Piennar, Bilyaletdinov and Fellaini are capable of delivering exceptional final balls. Baines has a quality delivery and (hopefully) Heitinga can develop into a similar style full back on the other side.
We’ll be fine. We just need something to fall for us.
John - I don’t think the problem was the midfield on Saturday. We created enough to chances to win 3 matches on Saturday, we just missed them all. You get games like that - Stoke was the same, but we are edging closer to good form. Cutting edge is what is missing and we have the players. Saha has been shouldering all the responsibility of scoring our goals, but once Cahill puts a couple away and Yak nicks one somewhere we will start to be more effective in front of goal.
Our midfield is creative; Arteta, Piennar, Bilyaletdinov and Fellaini are capable of delivering exceptional final balls. Baines has a quality delivery and (hopefully) Heitinga can develop into a similar style full back on the other side.
We’ll be fine. We just need something to fall for us.
I see Moyes saying that this time THE recovery will take longer. So a shit start to the season is compulsory then? He’s done a lot of good things but he’s just too defensive for me. We had every right to have a go at all the teams weve played this season. Each one of them vulnerable at the first whistle, yes even Arsenal who everyone was saying could be got at this season, but we have sat back and let the opposition dictate the pace in every game. Perhaps AEK are shite, perhaps they are better than that, but we had a go and looked ok against them. Why cant we show it more often????
I generally agree with the criticism Moyes has come in for in the last few days but can people PLEASE stop with this ridiculous "6 defenders" nonsense. We get it every time people want to slag off Moyes and it’s rubbish. Rodwell hasn’t played a single game in defence to my knowledge (and if he has it’s a rare occurence). For the time being he’s a midfielder and should be treated as such. We have the same whenever Neville and Gosling play - they suddenly become defenders despite rarely playing in defence any more.
Why not claim we finished the match with 5 strikers since Jo, Yak, Cahill, Fellaini and Bilyaletdinov have all played there at some point in their careers? Alternatively you could argue we started with only one defender since all of Yobo, Distin and Baines have played in midfield.
Yes the line-up was defensive, no there were not 6 defenders.
Why not claim we finished the match with 5 strikers since Jo, Yak, Cahill, Fellaini and Bilyaletdinov have all played there at some point in their careers? Alternatively you could argue we started with only one defender since all of Yobo, Distin and Baines have played in midfield.
Yes the line-up was defensive, no there were not 6 defenders.
I don’t have a problem with criticism of negative tactics (although I do think the level of it on here is far too over the top).
What was ludicrous was the lines about
"Why should people like Bily and Arteta have to think about defending? No wonder the likes of Pienaar and other forwards/midfielders are taken off long before the 90 minutes is up. They should be constantly threatening the opposition, not endlessly tracking back (and wasting energy) to help the defence"
To suggest that the midfield players shouldn’t have to defend is completely missing the point of the game of football. Their job is to defend & attack not to go forwards and then wander back when they feel like it just in case the defenders get the ball back.
Football is a team game, therefore all palyers have to play their part in all aspects of it.
That was what I thought was ludicrous!
What was ludicrous was the lines about
"Why should people like Bily and Arteta have to think about defending? No wonder the likes of Pienaar and other forwards/midfielders are taken off long before the 90 minutes is up. They should be constantly threatening the opposition, not endlessly tracking back (and wasting energy) to help the defence"
To suggest that the midfield players shouldn’t have to defend is completely missing the point of the game of football. Their job is to defend & attack not to go forwards and then wander back when they feel like it just in case the defenders get the ball back.
Football is a team game, therefore all palyers have to play their part in all aspects of it.
That was what I thought was ludicrous!
Okay John, you’d have started with that team against Wolves would you?
Regardless of whether Rodwell is a centre half or not he is still defensive. The Daily Mail showed Rodwell made 33 passes on Saturday of which 28 were either sideways or backwards. That’s hardly attacking is it? I’ll accept that stat providing he’s the only holding midfielder but when you then stick another defensive player alongside Rodwell who also plays sideways or backwards passes, we become an incredibly defensive team with fuck all creativity.
So what Moyes made changes towards the end? Saturday’s starting 11 showed Moyes’ boring defensive mindset against a very average Wolves side. It irritates me beyond comprehension for people to defend Moyes’ tactics on Saturday and against Stoke.
Regardless of whether Rodwell is a centre half or not he is still defensive. The Daily Mail showed Rodwell made 33 passes on Saturday of which 28 were either sideways or backwards. That’s hardly attacking is it? I’ll accept that stat providing he’s the only holding midfielder but when you then stick another defensive player alongside Rodwell who also plays sideways or backwards passes, we become an incredibly defensive team with fuck all creativity.
So what Moyes made changes towards the end? Saturday’s starting 11 showed Moyes’ boring defensive mindset against a very average Wolves side. It irritates me beyond comprehension for people to defend Moyes’ tactics on Saturday and against Stoke.
Really this article should be titled "What FFS is happening!?!"
What is Hibbert and that twat Osman doing anywhere near Goodison Park, never mind the first team?
What is Moyes doing playing negative tactics against a team who are new boys to the Prem?
What is Kenwright doing allowing this pathetic performance from Moyes?
Why is Moyes making excuse after excuse, from Fellaini's teeth, to players back late from international football, to players not arriving in time to gel and now the excuse is the injured parties will not be back to later.
Moyes, you are a prat of the highest calibre, go now for the sake of the club, pound for pound the worst tactician ever!
What is Hibbert and that twat Osman doing anywhere near Goodison Park, never mind the first team?
What is Moyes doing playing negative tactics against a team who are new boys to the Prem?
What is Kenwright doing allowing this pathetic performance from Moyes?
Why is Moyes making excuse after excuse, from Fellaini's teeth, to players back late from international football, to players not arriving in time to gel and now the excuse is the injured parties will not be back to later.
Moyes, you are a prat of the highest calibre, go now for the sake of the club, pound for pound the worst tactician ever!
"Moyes, you are a pratt of the hightest calibre go now for the sake of the club, pound for pound the worst tactician ever!"
Lord save us!
One by one, Hibbert is in the team, as on performances he is a far better right back than Heitinger......Osssie not so much.
Negative tactics, or his normal tactics of a 4-5-1 with an attacking midfielder in Cahill but because it is Wolves they now become negative?
No idea what Kthe Kenwright rant is about.
So explaining why a man is on the bench or if a player is fatigued and hence is subdues performance cannot be classed as an excuse anymore? I suppose we can’t mention that our only creative players are injured yet we are still getting scoring opportunities.
Losing key players doesn’t really affect teams does it? I mean look at the Redshite, without 2 players but they are still brushing aside all before them......oh wait they’re not, the same with Arsenal last season with only the loss of Fabregas....but no we can’t use that excuse because we’re Everton.
Lord save us!
One by one, Hibbert is in the team, as on performances he is a far better right back than Heitinger......Osssie not so much.
Negative tactics, or his normal tactics of a 4-5-1 with an attacking midfielder in Cahill but because it is Wolves they now become negative?
No idea what Kthe Kenwright rant is about.
So explaining why a man is on the bench or if a player is fatigued and hence is subdues performance cannot be classed as an excuse anymore? I suppose we can’t mention that our only creative players are injured yet we are still getting scoring opportunities.
Losing key players doesn’t really affect teams does it? I mean look at the Redshite, without 2 players but they are still brushing aside all before them......oh wait they’re not, the same with Arsenal last season with only the loss of Fabregas....but no we can’t use that excuse because we’re Everton.
The negativity on here is really pretty amazing. Some of you need to get a grip, seriously. Moyes isn’t the best manager in the world, he has his faults. But he’s also nowhere near the worst. Come off it, what’s wrong with you people?
Yes, Moyes is inclined to play a highly structured, fairly conservate game. That’s true. But it’s a philosophy that has served him and us well in terms of making the most of the resorces we have to grind out results. It’s not always pretty, especially when our best ball-players are unavailable, but it’s frequently effective.
But some people take this Moyes=defensive stereotype far too far. When he thinks he has the resources, Moyes is perfectly capable of putting out an attacking team. He’s also perfectly capable of getting a team to play good joined up, passing football - when he thinks the resources are available.
Only a few weeks ago we were demolishing some admittedly mediocre teams - the difference being that Pienaar and Fellaini were available.
What we all think he should be trying to do is get his teams to play good attacking football even when his best passing and attacking players are unavailable or only partially fit. I agree with that, though no doubt it’s difficult.
Look - Moyes himself is acknowledging the team isn’t playing well right now. I’ve got no doubt that, in time, we will improve. In the meantime - sure, lets voice our critcisms and frustrations, but how about keeping a bit of perspective, huh?
Yes, Moyes is inclined to play a highly structured, fairly conservate game. That’s true. But it’s a philosophy that has served him and us well in terms of making the most of the resorces we have to grind out results. It’s not always pretty, especially when our best ball-players are unavailable, but it’s frequently effective.
But some people take this Moyes=defensive stereotype far too far. When he thinks he has the resources, Moyes is perfectly capable of putting out an attacking team. He’s also perfectly capable of getting a team to play good joined up, passing football - when he thinks the resources are available.
Only a few weeks ago we were demolishing some admittedly mediocre teams - the difference being that Pienaar and Fellaini were available.
What we all think he should be trying to do is get his teams to play good attacking football even when his best passing and attacking players are unavailable or only partially fit. I agree with that, though no doubt it’s difficult.
Look - Moyes himself is acknowledging the team isn’t playing well right now. I’ve got no doubt that, in time, we will improve. In the meantime - sure, lets voice our critcisms and frustrations, but how about keeping a bit of perspective, huh?
Alan, you wrote:
"So what, Moyes made changes towards the end? Saturday’s starting 11 showed Moyes’s boring defensive mindset against a very average Wolves side. It irritates me beyond comprehension for people to defend Moyes’s tactics on Saturday and against Stoke. "
Firstly, the tactical change was made at half-time when 0-0 — the fact it didn’t overly affect the outcome of the result sort of negates the whole issue a bit.
Secondly, as discussed at length on here, 4-5-1 is not always a defensive mindset — are Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal negative! — the only issue on Saturday was the presence of Heitinga & Rodwell in the middle, but as also discussed elsewhere at length, we weren’t blessed with lots of options, Fellaini wasn’t fit enough & Pienaar etc were injured.
Finally, you combine Wolves with the game against Stoke — OK, case in point we played 4-5-1 with Fellaini & Cahill both available, drew 1-1 and had 29 shots on goal. Now I don’t know about you but I would hardly describe a team who have 29 shots on goal as being negative!
"So what, Moyes made changes towards the end? Saturday’s starting 11 showed Moyes’s boring defensive mindset against a very average Wolves side. It irritates me beyond comprehension for people to defend Moyes’s tactics on Saturday and against Stoke. "
Firstly, the tactical change was made at half-time when 0-0 — the fact it didn’t overly affect the outcome of the result sort of negates the whole issue a bit.
Secondly, as discussed at length on here, 4-5-1 is not always a defensive mindset — are Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal negative! — the only issue on Saturday was the presence of Heitinga & Rodwell in the middle, but as also discussed elsewhere at length, we weren’t blessed with lots of options, Fellaini wasn’t fit enough & Pienaar etc were injured.
Finally, you combine Wolves with the game against Stoke — OK, case in point we played 4-5-1 with Fellaini & Cahill both available, drew 1-1 and had 29 shots on goal. Now I don’t know about you but I would hardly describe a team who have 29 shots on goal as being negative!
I’d be interested to know what starting 11 these critics would have picked, given that they weren’t happy with Moyes’ selection.
Bear in mind that Pienaar was injured, Fellaini was not 100% fit and Yak is still not 100% match fit.
Obviously we have no Arteta or Jagielka yet — so what side would you have picked, under the circumstances?
Bear in mind that Pienaar was injured, Fellaini was not 100% fit and Yak is still not 100% match fit.
Obviously we have no Arteta or Jagielka yet — so what side would you have picked, under the circumstances?
Alan Clarke,
I made my views clear in my column. I think some of the criticism is OTT but generally well-aimed. This listing of every conceivable player as ’defenders’ just gets on my nerves.
I made my views clear in my column. I think some of the criticism is OTT but generally well-aimed. This listing of every conceivable player as ’defenders’ just gets on my nerves.
I wouldn’t be labelled as a ’critic’ but I’ll have a go at that Alasdair.
Well actually there were only really two options for a more attacking lineup - either 4-5-1 but with Osman in the middle in place of Heitinga and Gosling down the right, or a 4-4-2 with Jo and Saha up front and Cahill in place of Heitinga in centre mid. In either formation you could also replace Hibbo with Heitinga.
Personally I would have liked us to start with that 4-4-2 lineup. I think without Pienaar and Fellaini we needed more pace and attacking threat than the lineup we started with. Moving Cahill back into orthodox midfield and putting Jo and Saha up front might have offered that. Heitinga at RB also offers a bit more than Hibbo going forward.
Having said all that I don’t know if it would make that much difference, and the players are used to the 4-5-1 system, so I can’t fault Moyes for putting out the lineup he did.
(I wouldn’t have gone for the more attacking 4-5-1 with Gosling down right and Osman centra, mainly as I don’t rate Gosling very highly, especially as a midfielder).
Well actually there were only really two options for a more attacking lineup - either 4-5-1 but with Osman in the middle in place of Heitinga and Gosling down the right, or a 4-4-2 with Jo and Saha up front and Cahill in place of Heitinga in centre mid. In either formation you could also replace Hibbo with Heitinga.
Personally I would have liked us to start with that 4-4-2 lineup. I think without Pienaar and Fellaini we needed more pace and attacking threat than the lineup we started with. Moving Cahill back into orthodox midfield and putting Jo and Saha up front might have offered that. Heitinga at RB also offers a bit more than Hibbo going forward.
Having said all that I don’t know if it would make that much difference, and the players are used to the 4-5-1 system, so I can’t fault Moyes for putting out the lineup he did.
(I wouldn’t have gone for the more attacking 4-5-1 with Gosling down right and Osman centra, mainly as I don’t rate Gosling very highly, especially as a midfielder).
Mathew,
Anyone with eyes could tell you that Cahill as an ’orthodox midfielder’ is practically useless..
And how the hell can you not fault Moyes for playing a right back in midfield!!! I knew when we signed Hietinga - Moyes would be tempted to use him in midfield..And the problem is that he’ll persist with it - just as he persisted with Neville.
Now, I’m all for balance - but you’re being ludicrous. Moyes MUST, I repeat - MUST shoulder some of the blame for the poor performances this season - incuding his continued playing of Osman and his little penchant for playing people out of position.
Now I think Moyes is a good manager, but his innability to learn from his mistakes or see the blindingly obvious is beginning to extremely grate...
Anyone with eyes could tell you that Cahill as an ’orthodox midfielder’ is practically useless..
And how the hell can you not fault Moyes for playing a right back in midfield!!! I knew when we signed Hietinga - Moyes would be tempted to use him in midfield..And the problem is that he’ll persist with it - just as he persisted with Neville.
Now, I’m all for balance - but you’re being ludicrous. Moyes MUST, I repeat - MUST shoulder some of the blame for the poor performances this season - incuding his continued playing of Osman and his little penchant for playing people out of position.
Now I think Moyes is a good manager, but his innability to learn from his mistakes or see the blindingly obvious is beginning to extremely grate...
So can you lot defending Moyes honestly say we had a real go at Wolves on Saturday? Did Moyes do everything he could to win that game? I think he did everything he could to not lose it.
Also 29 shots on goal against Stoke! That’s a shite stat to throw around. How many were on target? I remember Rodwell and Osman twatting the ball towards the corner flag a few times each so there’s some shots for you. We were shit in that game and we were shit against Wolves.
Also if we’re going down the route of blaming our lack of options, why didn’t Moyes spend more money on attackers instead of defenders? Why is he so quick to buy Jagielka’s replacement but not Arteta’s? And before anyone mentions the premium cost of attackers, how much did Arteta and Pienaar cost? Again it demonstrates Moyes’ boring defensive mindset. I doubt Moyes even bothers to scout attackers. He signed Fellaini as a defensive midfielder and Billy as someone who can cover as a left back.
Also 29 shots on goal against Stoke! That’s a shite stat to throw around. How many were on target? I remember Rodwell and Osman twatting the ball towards the corner flag a few times each so there’s some shots for you. We were shit in that game and we were shit against Wolves.
Also if we’re going down the route of blaming our lack of options, why didn’t Moyes spend more money on attackers instead of defenders? Why is he so quick to buy Jagielka’s replacement but not Arteta’s? And before anyone mentions the premium cost of attackers, how much did Arteta and Pienaar cost? Again it demonstrates Moyes’ boring defensive mindset. I doubt Moyes even bothers to scout attackers. He signed Fellaini as a defensive midfielder and Billy as someone who can cover as a left back.
Is this it? Is this the end result of Moyes's lengthy tenure?? Has all hope of fast-flowing on-the-ground football disappeared??? Are we doomed forever to watch slow-motion dross???? How long does it take for a manager to define his own brand of football????? Is what we currently see all we can expect into the future??????
Every hoof ball is down to him. He can or should be able to stop it... Thrice voted by his peers as best manager, the same peers that win trophies while he wins nowt!
His game plan is for low-scoring games then he moans about missed chances from very few that are created. Many ex-defenders have been top class innovative managers but our David cannot throw off his ultra-cautious mind-set. I think he spends far too much time plotting ways to stop opponents from scoring... or, in the case of top teams, how to drag them down to our level. Not enough is spent on how we can penetrate defences and score.
I hoped Steve Round might provide an attacking balance but so far he also does not show any inspiration.
Hi Ciaran
I agree Cahill isn’t a fantastic orthodox centre-mid. I think you’re being a bit harsh on him though, he would have been more use alongside Rodwell that Heitinga I think.
We’ve discussed this before, but Heitinga does not have "right back" stamped on his forehead. He has played defensive mid for Atheltico, he lists hit as one of his positions on his own website for goodness sake. I do agree that he isn’t showing signs of adapting to playing there in the premier league, but there’s no reason that he can’t adapt over time.
I’m curious though - what team would you have liked Moyes to put out? You don’t seem to want Osman, Cahill or Heitinga in centre-mid - so who?? Put Arteta out there on crutches?
I agree Cahill isn’t a fantastic orthodox centre-mid. I think you’re being a bit harsh on him though, he would have been more use alongside Rodwell that Heitinga I think.
We’ve discussed this before, but Heitinga does not have "right back" stamped on his forehead. He has played defensive mid for Atheltico, he lists hit as one of his positions on his own website for goodness sake. I do agree that he isn’t showing signs of adapting to playing there in the premier league, but there’s no reason that he can’t adapt over time.
I’m curious though - what team would you have liked Moyes to put out? You don’t seem to want Osman, Cahill or Heitinga in centre-mid - so who?? Put Arteta out there on crutches?
Oh well I guess if Heitinga says he’s a midfielder then we of course must play him there...
Irrespective of the fact that he’s clueless there...
Who would I have put in midfield on Saturday? Fellaini and Rodwell...with Baxter/Wallace and Billy either side.
I wouldn’t have had Coleman anywhere near the bench considering there was three right backs in the line-up...or Jo for that matter who I think is utter shíte.
Irrespective of the fact that he’s clueless there...
Who would I have put in midfield on Saturday? Fellaini and Rodwell...with Baxter/Wallace and Billy either side.
I wouldn’t have had Coleman anywhere near the bench considering there was three right backs in the line-up...or Jo for that matter who I think is utter shíte.
Dick, exactly! Why does Moyes get voted manager of the year? Alex Ferguson is hardly going to vote for Wenger or the FSW is he? Similarly, Wenger is not going to vote for Ferguson. Moyes is an inoffensive manager who does okay but doesn’t upset the fellas at the top so they like him. They like his work ethic. But our record against the top 4 is crap. If we beat them regularly and managed to win stuff they would hate Moyes and there’s no way he’d win manager of the year. Also managers like Allardyce, Bruce, Brown, Pulis, McLeish and Megson vote for Moyes because they’re of the same mould.
It’s hardly an accolade and what does it matter anyway? Does having manager of the year win US anything?
The most annoying thing about all of this is as soon as Everton win again, we’ll have to read all the crap about how good Moyes is. Marsh was right, our performances never change only the results. We’ll still be awful to watch.
It’s hardly an accolade and what does it matter anyway? Does having manager of the year win US anything?
The most annoying thing about all of this is as soon as Everton win again, we’ll have to read all the crap about how good Moyes is. Marsh was right, our performances never change only the results. We’ll still be awful to watch.
Dick, exactly! Why does Moyes get voted manager of the year? Alex Ferguson is hardly going to vote for Wenger or the FSW is he? Similarly, Wenger is not going to vote for Ferguson. Moyes is an inoffensive manager who does okay but doesn’t upset the fellas at the top so they like him. They like his work ethic. But our record against the top 4 is crap. If we beat them regularly and managed to win stuff they would hate Moyes and there’s no way he’d win manager of the year. Also managers like Allardyce, Bruce, Brown, Pulis, McLeish and Megson vote for Moyes because they’re of the same mould.
It’s hardly an accolade and what does it matter anyway? Does having manager of the year win US anything?
The most annoying thing about all of this is as soon as Everton win again, we’ll have to read all the crap about how good Moyes is. Marsh was right, our performances never change only the results. We’ll still be awful to watch.
It’s hardly an accolade and what does it matter anyway? Does having manager of the year win US anything?
The most annoying thing about all of this is as soon as Everton win again, we’ll have to read all the crap about how good Moyes is. Marsh was right, our performances never change only the results. We’ll still be awful to watch.
Ok 20+shots on goal is apparently a dubious statistic so I will clarify it a little
From the BBC website
Shots on goal 24
Shots on target 17
Shots off target 7
Now, there may have been 1 or 2 that went near the corner flag, but 17 shot son target in 90 mins is pretty good by any bodys book (even Arsenal don’t get that on their good days very often!)
The team for this negative display
Howard
Hibbert Heitinga Distin Baines
Osman Cahill Fellaini Rodwell Billy
Saha
451 - Hibbert & Osman included
Lets just face facts here some days it works, some days it doesn’t, but there is no guarantee that 442, 433, 424, 532, 4141 or whatever would work any better!
From the BBC website
Shots on goal 24
Shots on target 17
Shots off target 7
Now, there may have been 1 or 2 that went near the corner flag, but 17 shot son target in 90 mins is pretty good by any bodys book (even Arsenal don’t get that on their good days very often!)
The team for this negative display
Howard
Hibbert Heitinga Distin Baines
Osman Cahill Fellaini Rodwell Billy
Saha
451 - Hibbert & Osman included
Lets just face facts here some days it works, some days it doesn’t, but there is no guarantee that 442, 433, 424, 532, 4141 or whatever would work any better!
Did you go to that game Chris? Because I certainly don’t remember us annihilating Stoke. I distinctly remember walking away from that game the same as Saturday feeling like we were the same old defensive crap. You’re right though, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. The performances are still crap to watch.
I guess that simply proves how manipulative and deceiving stats can be...
I prefer to believe my eyes...which told me we were utter crap...
I prefer to believe my eyes...which told me we were utter crap...
Careful now Ciarán - stats can be very misleading of course. The number of fouls committed, for example, should be ’free kicks awarded’ or "fouls in the opinion of the referee". Goals scored? Collina famously decided how to interpret that. Cards awarded? Hibbo red, Kuynt yellow according to Clattenburg) Such figures are accurate but clearly don’t tell the whole story.
’Shots on target’ doesn’t tell the whole story against Stoke either, and nobody says it does. But if you believe your own eyes to the exclusion of other information that’s fine, and will be ttreated as seriously as that of the next guy on the phone in.
’Shots on target’ doesn’t tell the whole story against Stoke either, and nobody says it does. But if you believe your own eyes to the exclusion of other information that’s fine, and will be ttreated as seriously as that of the next guy on the phone in.
Are you saying I shouldn’t believe my own eyes Keith?
Ciarán - you can obviously believe anything you want. But a firmly held belief is not simply the truth.
You may believe that, for example, we were crap against Stoke (and many may agree with you). But we either got 17 shots on target or we didn’t. And if we did, something must have been going right that day which makes the overall assessment of "crap" seem either harsh or one based on some other criterion.
And what we see very much depends on what we are looking for.
You may believe that, for example, we were crap against Stoke (and many may agree with you). But we either got 17 shots on target or we didn’t. And if we did, something must have been going right that day which makes the overall assessment of "crap" seem either harsh or one based on some other criterion.
And what we see very much depends on what we are looking for.
I’ll ask you again Keith..Should I or should I not believe my eyes?
Ciaran
Well absolutely I agree if Fellaini was fit to start then certainly he should start alongside Rodwell. I’m just assuming that he isn’t fit to play 90 mins yet or Moyes would surely have started him. On the basis that Fellaini wasn’t fit I think playing Heitinga at centre mid was a reasonable experiment (which failed), though as I say I would have preferred to try starting Cahill and Rodwell in a 4-4-2.
Incidently I agree that Jo is pretty shite, which is why I don’t really fault Moyes for not starting him and for sticking with 4-5-1, even though I think it would have been worth trying the 4-4-2 here. Can’t comment on whether Baxter/Wallace should start down the right, I’ve barely seen them play. It’s certainly a bold call...
One other thing I agree 17 shots on target doesn’t mean much in isolation. A ’shot’ can be anything from a tame pass/scuff to a bullet drawing a heroic save. Since ’shots on target’ says nothing at all about the quality of the chances or execution of the shots, it’s is borderline useless except as another measure of posession.
Well absolutely I agree if Fellaini was fit to start then certainly he should start alongside Rodwell. I’m just assuming that he isn’t fit to play 90 mins yet or Moyes would surely have started him. On the basis that Fellaini wasn’t fit I think playing Heitinga at centre mid was a reasonable experiment (which failed), though as I say I would have preferred to try starting Cahill and Rodwell in a 4-4-2.
Incidently I agree that Jo is pretty shite, which is why I don’t really fault Moyes for not starting him and for sticking with 4-5-1, even though I think it would have been worth trying the 4-4-2 here. Can’t comment on whether Baxter/Wallace should start down the right, I’ve barely seen them play. It’s certainly a bold call...
One other thing I agree 17 shots on target doesn’t mean much in isolation. A ’shot’ can be anything from a tame pass/scuff to a bullet drawing a heroic save. Since ’shots on target’ says nothing at all about the quality of the chances or execution of the shots, it’s is borderline useless except as another measure of posession.
Well Ciaran if I remember correctly you went fishing instead of watching the match. So I dont think your assesment of the game is worth much. I dont care if the yak is 20% fit he has to start its the only way he is going to get match sharp. The chances we have wasted in the last two home games the yak would bury them. I agree Jo has been shite although his ball in to the box for the goal was quality.
Anybody who went to the game on Saturday will surely tell you how shit we were. The line up was a joke in the 1st instance. 4-4-1-1 at home to Wolves was disgraceful. Same as it was against Stoke. Heitinga was like a fish up a tree in midfield. His best position is centre defence in my opinion. He said he moved from Madrid to get more games in this position. Cahill should have been in the centre with rodwell and Yak/Jo upfront with Saha. But you just know that wouldn’t happen under this manager.
It summed it up for me when against Blackburn, at 3-0 up, he took saha off for Jo rather than going for more goals.
I just pray when our football improves when Mikel is back because at the moment it’s boring going to Goodison.
I’m a big Moyes fan usually but the football this season has been a joke.
It summed it up for me when against Blackburn, at 3-0 up, he took saha off for Jo rather than going for more goals.
I just pray when our football improves when Mikel is back because at the moment it’s boring going to Goodison.
I’m a big Moyes fan usually but the football this season has been a joke.
You can argue all night about whether Rodwell is a midfielder or defender and how many shots we had. In fact in the first half on saturday wolves had 4 shots on target and we had none. Nothing will alter the fact that Moyes plays defensively even against the bottom sides. 7 years of defensive football and still people defend him. Surely they only watch 3 minutes on Match of the Day and think that was a fine display of attacking football. What they must realise the other 87 is just defensive dross.
Just to weigh in on the 17 shots against Stoke, a warning from history: -
According to the programme from the Sheffield United v Everton match of 1 February 1902 (http://www.evertoncollection.org.uk/object?id=796+EFC%2f7%2f16%2f1&p=4&z=1#title) "Shots are not goals, says a Wolverhampton man".
I am becoming a little addicted to this Everton Collection!
According to the programme from the Sheffield United v Everton match of 1 February 1902 (http://www.evertoncollection.org.uk/object?id=796+EFC%2f7%2f16%2f1&p=4&z=1#title) "Shots are not goals, says a Wolverhampton man".
I am becoming a little addicted to this Everton Collection!
Kevy,
I turned the match off and went fishing..that’s different from missing the match to go fishing..
The motive was one of disgust..unfortunately I’d already sat through the first 60 minutes of the match...time I’ll never get back.
I turned the match off and went fishing..that’s different from missing the match to go fishing..
The motive was one of disgust..unfortunately I’d already sat through the first 60 minutes of the match...time I’ll never get back.
Lets state the obvious to start with
(i) Moyes prefers 4:5:1 to any other formation and it has brought “success”
(ii) Moyes prefers Cahill as the supporting attacker
(iii) Moyes has a doctrine of prioritising clean sheets as his number 1 target (and to be fair as do most managers , apart from Rednapp and O’Neill)
(iv) All midfield and attackers have a demanding defensive role to play
(v) Fellaini’s best role
Moyes’s problem at the moment is that he doesn’t trust his current back 4 . As we all know Yobo is prone to make mistakes and he isn’t quite yet 100% sure of Distin (he had total faith in the Jags/Lescott partnership) and to compound the problem both Hibbert and Baines haven’t looked assured defensively this season. What this means is that Moyes wants to play 2 defensive midfielders – on Saturday, Heitinga and Rodwell to ensure that the back 4 is shored up. Heitinga is there as Moyes is unsure of Fellaini as a true holding midfield player.
His sole creative plan at the moment is either:
(a) provide width with Ossie and Billy supported by Baines and Hibbert, hopefully to get crosses into Saha and Cahill
OR
(b) use the long ball from defence to Saha and Cahill and feed off knock-downs.
When we fail to get width as what happened on Saturday then the pressure builds on the players and we revert to plan (b).
What Moyes wants more than anything is to get Jags, Arteta and Pinnear back quickly. He will undoubtedly find places straight away for all 3, Jags in for Yobo , Arteta as one of the two central holding players , preferably with Neville as it worked so well last year and finally get Pinnear with Hibbert/Heitinga as the right side combination. He will still play 4:5:1 with either Saha or the Yak as the sole forward supported by Cahill or Fellaini.
Our bench will be , Hibbert , Ossie Fellaini/Cahill, Jo , Rodwell , Gosling
I’m afraid as Moyes latest comments state, that until Jags and Arteta reappear we will always be struggling to attack any Premiership team. WE should hopefully move up a notch with Pinnear back , but we will be solely relying on him for any creativity – we have a long wait ahead.
(i) Moyes prefers 4:5:1 to any other formation and it has brought “success”
(ii) Moyes prefers Cahill as the supporting attacker
(iii) Moyes has a doctrine of prioritising clean sheets as his number 1 target (and to be fair as do most managers , apart from Rednapp and O’Neill)
(iv) All midfield and attackers have a demanding defensive role to play
(v) Fellaini’s best role
Moyes’s problem at the moment is that he doesn’t trust his current back 4 . As we all know Yobo is prone to make mistakes and he isn’t quite yet 100% sure of Distin (he had total faith in the Jags/Lescott partnership) and to compound the problem both Hibbert and Baines haven’t looked assured defensively this season. What this means is that Moyes wants to play 2 defensive midfielders – on Saturday, Heitinga and Rodwell to ensure that the back 4 is shored up. Heitinga is there as Moyes is unsure of Fellaini as a true holding midfield player.
His sole creative plan at the moment is either:
(a) provide width with Ossie and Billy supported by Baines and Hibbert, hopefully to get crosses into Saha and Cahill
OR
(b) use the long ball from defence to Saha and Cahill and feed off knock-downs.
When we fail to get width as what happened on Saturday then the pressure builds on the players and we revert to plan (b).
What Moyes wants more than anything is to get Jags, Arteta and Pinnear back quickly. He will undoubtedly find places straight away for all 3, Jags in for Yobo , Arteta as one of the two central holding players , preferably with Neville as it worked so well last year and finally get Pinnear with Hibbert/Heitinga as the right side combination. He will still play 4:5:1 with either Saha or the Yak as the sole forward supported by Cahill or Fellaini.
Our bench will be , Hibbert , Ossie Fellaini/Cahill, Jo , Rodwell , Gosling
I’m afraid as Moyes latest comments state, that until Jags and Arteta reappear we will always be struggling to attack any Premiership team. WE should hopefully move up a notch with Pinnear back , but we will be solely relying on him for any creativity – we have a long wait ahead.
Moyes likes playing 4-5-1 and likes Osman. We all bang on about how Osman is either a) complete and utter shite at all times or b) just crap out on the right. Therefore even given Moyes’ defensive streak surely this would have been the perfect time to play Osman in the middle along with Cahill and Rodwell?
Put Bily on one side and Gosling on the other with Heitiga at RB and we’d see if Osman can pull the strings in the middle. But alas even this limited opportunity was lost.
Put Bily on one side and Gosling on the other with Heitiga at RB and we’d see if Osman can pull the strings in the middle. But alas even this limited opportunity was lost.
Anyone who wants Neville back in midfield should take a look at themselves...
It should be Young Rodwell with Fellaini and Arteta given a free role in the middle...with pienaar and billy either side..
It should be Young Rodwell with Fellaini and Arteta given a free role in the middle...with pienaar and billy either side..
So when we reach another cup final / Wembley semi final , I presume it will be very easy to get tickets , the " gentlemen " who are so much anti-Moyes won’t want to go , how could you be bothered watching them even if Arteta , Pienaar , yakubu , Jagielka are fully fit and in form and Heitinga and Bily are more attuned to the premier league , we will still be playing crap unattractive football ........ Won’t we ??? .... Some of you need to see past the ends of your noses .. Of course we are going to improve , and with a fully fit team firing on all cylinders we can beat anyone ... try looking at the fact we are now a selling club in order to fund incoming transfers rather than blame the manager who operated on a none existant budget for 7 years
So it seems there were three options as an alternative to the actual line-up on Saturday.
1) Jo instead of Cahill - I am not sure which is the better option as a support striker. Jo hasn’t been playing as out-an-out striker this season, he likes the ball into feet rather than over the top or through. I am not sure whether this is tactical or down to a lack of confidence in his own ability to get in behind, but it is the case either way. This means you are getting a Cahill without the midfield energy which was so apparent on Saturday.
2) Ossie in the middle, Heitinga to RB and Gosling on the right hand side - The problem here is that Billy was most effective when cutting in to his left foot. He didn’t have the turn of speed to get away from there right back who was very quick. I am not sure of Gosling would have solved the problem or made it worse.
3) As with 2, but Baxter and not Gosling - This may have worked, but we are not sure what kind of trouble Baxter is in at the moment.
It is very easy for us all to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and pick a team, but Moyes had 2 or 3 choices and had to make a decision about who to play against a side he had never faced before. I don’t think he was a million miles off. A little more composure and confidence in front of goal and we would have been crusing at 2-0 at half-time and bringing the Yak off the bench.
1) Jo instead of Cahill - I am not sure which is the better option as a support striker. Jo hasn’t been playing as out-an-out striker this season, he likes the ball into feet rather than over the top or through. I am not sure whether this is tactical or down to a lack of confidence in his own ability to get in behind, but it is the case either way. This means you are getting a Cahill without the midfield energy which was so apparent on Saturday.
2) Ossie in the middle, Heitinga to RB and Gosling on the right hand side - The problem here is that Billy was most effective when cutting in to his left foot. He didn’t have the turn of speed to get away from there right back who was very quick. I am not sure of Gosling would have solved the problem or made it worse.
3) As with 2, but Baxter and not Gosling - This may have worked, but we are not sure what kind of trouble Baxter is in at the moment.
It is very easy for us all to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and pick a team, but Moyes had 2 or 3 choices and had to make a decision about who to play against a side he had never faced before. I don’t think he was a million miles off. A little more composure and confidence in front of goal and we would have been crusing at 2-0 at half-time and bringing the Yak off the bench.
"Why is he so quick to buy Jagielka’s replacement but not Arteta’s? And before anyone mentions the premium cost of attackers, how much did Arteta and Pienaar cost? Again it demonstrates Moyes’ boring defensive mindset. I doubt Moyes even bothers to scout attackers. He signed Fellaini as a defensive midfielder and Billy as someone who can cover as a left back."
1, Because Distin and Heitinga only cost £10-11m between them and were available.
2, Arteta and Pienaar were cheap but cheap talent is rare otherwise everyone would snap them up. They both took a little time to settle to.
3, Castillo was signed in as the defensive midfielder, not Fellaini.
4, Crazy to say Bily was signed as cover for left back, no basis for this at all. He was signed as a left mid who can play right and possibly in the middle and it was Hiddink who said he could play left back, Moyes repeated this as a bonus not his position.
As for the rest I will admit I am a Moyes fan but I can also admit that at times he is over cautious and we should be going out and attacking Stoke and Wolves at home. However take away Arteta, Jags, Yak, Fellaini, Pienaar and any team would struggle (look at our friends accross the park without just their two best). Jags aside all the others are arguably our most creative.
Howard, Heitinga, Jags, Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Arteta, Rodwell, Fellaini, Bily, Yak. That is a pretty good starting 11 and that is without Saha Cahill and a few others.
1, Because Distin and Heitinga only cost £10-11m between them and were available.
2, Arteta and Pienaar were cheap but cheap talent is rare otherwise everyone would snap them up. They both took a little time to settle to.
3, Castillo was signed in as the defensive midfielder, not Fellaini.
4, Crazy to say Bily was signed as cover for left back, no basis for this at all. He was signed as a left mid who can play right and possibly in the middle and it was Hiddink who said he could play left back, Moyes repeated this as a bonus not his position.
As for the rest I will admit I am a Moyes fan but I can also admit that at times he is over cautious and we should be going out and attacking Stoke and Wolves at home. However take away Arteta, Jags, Yak, Fellaini, Pienaar and any team would struggle (look at our friends accross the park without just their two best). Jags aside all the others are arguably our most creative.
Howard, Heitinga, Jags, Distin, Baines, Pienaar, Arteta, Rodwell, Fellaini, Bily, Yak. That is a pretty good starting 11 and that is without Saha Cahill and a few others.
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1 Posted 19/10/2009 at 20:19:44
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If Moyes hasn’t got the players by now I doubt he ever will have, if he is still unable to get them to play decent football consistently, then I doubt he ever will. Moyes’s teams just play the way he coaches them to & it ain’t pretty but, over the course of the season it’s generally pretty effective. However, I fail to see how a team coached by Moyes is going to challenge regularly for silverware.
I guess it’s just a matter of what level of "achievement" you consider to be acceptable for our club.