The Mail Bag
Endless debate
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Have not been on this site for long but was quite suprised when I did join how much vitriol was directed at David Moyes.
I have watched Everton a lot over the years andI agree with the criticism that we may not be the most creative team in the league but we have secured a measure of relative success with very limited resources. I don't see how that can be debated by anyone here. With the money Moyes has had at his disposal I don't see how any other manager could have done any better. Maybe another manager would have played better football at times but maybe would have sacrificed the consistency and solidity that made us so hard to defeat at times.
The problem is two fold, fans here now expect us to push on to the next level and do it by playing better football. Easy to say, hard to do. Also our rivals are not standing still and teams like Spurs, Man C and Villa now threaten to eclipse us at the top and I don't see how any Everton fan can really complain about this and blame Moyes when you see the disparity of resources that Spurs and Man C have which Everton don't.
So I think you should all give Davie a wee break. Yes I agree he is not the best tactician, I doubt he is that charismatic in selling the club to potential signings and he is a tad over-cautious but I think the latter characteristic is his belief (he may not admit it) that his squad has now overachieved for a few years and he has done this by playing in a certain way and format, if he threw caution to the winds now and played more expansively then he probably fears they are not good enough to do that and it would unravel. I also feel that Everton's position is precarious where we are now (5th) and too much change will have us on a downward spiral not an upward one.
An analogy is my home town club Wrexham. Under Brian Flynn, Wrexham achieved a certain measure of stability and Brian took the club from 92nd in League Two to a mid-table League One side that flirted with the playoffs to the championship on a few occasions. However, inevitably the fans wanted more and accused Flynn of negativity, lack of ambition, poor substitutions etc etc. In fact everything became his fault.
To his credit the board and him listened and splashed some cash one close season and radically changed the squad. The result? Relegation... chairman resigned, manager left, administration and eventually the Blue Square Premier League.
I also hope like many fans here that our standard of football will improve and I am sure it will when we get our full squad back in business, but like many fans here I hope I don't have to experience another hopeless pre-season transfer policy at Everton, that is one aspect of the criticism I read here that I cannot defend the club on...
Alun Jones, Posted 25/10/2009 at 00:43:25
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We all want better football for sure but only a fantasist expects a top four finish on the resources we have.
Where you are in the table shows how good a football club you are. Everton used to be the 5th best in England for the last couple of years. We earnt that right and we did it by not spending much and working hard whilst the likes of Spurs and Newcastle spent loads but fucked up. That was their problem. Now Spurs, Villa and City are working hard on and off the pitch and earning the right to improve their football clubs and being higher in the league table. Everton seem to stand still and expect the status quo to remain. It doesn’t. We have been bypassed by betting equiped football clubs. At the moment we are only the 11th best team in the country.
Using the position of a club at any one time part way through the season does not give you a true picture. Michael says we can’t be good because we were bottom for a month. Mathew says that football moves quickly and so we are only the 11th best side in the prem at the moment.
Well based on current form, over the last 4 games, we are currently the third best team in the prem. Or over 6 games we are the 7th best team in the prem.
You can only judge how good a team is when they have played every other team home and away, in other words at the end of the season.
This whole post is nonsense, we have all seen this team play some excellent pass and move football which co-incided with our best run of results for a very long time.
Against benfica we played it mostly on the floor in the first half and whille not playing brilliant, were in the game and had a chance. As soon as they scored we started booting it long playing route one shite! What did Moyes do? Did he come steaming out the dugout and demand we pass the ball? No he sat there and accepted it as he always does. A manager with a true footballing philosophy would not allow his team to resort to the kind of shite Everton have played for most of this season and the last.
And don’t bother saying the players arent good enough, there all top internationals.
I’m fairly well up on Wrexham F.C and Flynnies reign wasn’t all sunshine and roses...
It amazes me watching Everton how Moyes never has a plan B... He’s frequently outwitted by very average managers..
Did anyone else notice how the Benfica manager was up, organising and shouting tactics even when his team were 4-0 up, whilst Moyes looked like one of us, sat there shellshocked... don’t think Alex Ferguson would have sat there taking a 5-0 fucking in the arse like that somehow...
Rev up the taxi boys, Colin Harvey got sacked for much much less....
Anyone can criticise, but what would you actually DO? If you don’t want to sack Moyes you’re wasting your time because he won’t change, at least not overnight. Who would you replace him with? There’s a fat waiter looking for a job, how about him?
We’ve got basic quality all round the squad now but in the absence of Arteta and Pienaar we’re so predictable that most Prem teams have a chance against us. OK, that’s the way it is, not the way we’d like it, but we can’t afford more creative players and we’ll just have to do our best until those guys are back. That’s reality, not the imaginary ‘downward spiral’ that we are supposed to recognise to ‘Get with the programme!‘ if we post on this site.
Yes we SUPPOSEDLY have the best squad for 20 years, but look at other teams squads that have spent far more money than us, their fans are probably saying the same. Not to mention the fact that the best players in our squad, Arteta, Yakubu & Jagielka have not played all season(ok the Yaks managed a handful of cameo’s) and others have been injured too, Pienaar, Pip, Baines etc etc.
Our blitzing in Europe was against a pretty good side and we had a defence of Gosling, Distin, Hibbert and Coleman !
Alun Jones has made an attempt at a balanced post, making some comparisons, wether they are valid or not is obviously debatable, and Kenrick has resorted to name calling, sarcasm,condescending and outright rudeness.
Its one of the most unbalanced, ill thought and rude posts Ive seen on here for a while and its aimed at a fellow blue
SHAME ON YOU KENRICK !
The way you go on, you would think Moyes only had a few grand to spend. How much did he spend on the Yak, Beattie,Fellaini? How many times has he broke our transfer record? How much did he spend this summer?
Some of you lads must have the book, titled ’101 exscuses when you get beat ’ We have had the injuries one, the money one, it’s the F.A’ s fault one, the referee. There can’t be many left now.
We all agree that so far this season the performances (Europa apart), but they are eerily reminiscent of last season before the Man U game, so stop being fair-weather supporters and get behind the team, and do what it says on the tin-support them FFS
Alun, your views are matched by more Evertonians than you would realise reading some of the tirades on here.
We’ve been here ( post Blackburn FA Cup 2007, Clattenburg Derby 2007, Wigan away last November, Burnley this season ) and the Team have always bounced back. Of course, nothing is guaranteed, but let them get on with it and see what happens. I don’t think any team would not notice its two most creative players ( Pienaar and Arteta ) missing and the style of play suffering. For those who doubt Moyes’desire to play attractive football, it’s only 8 weeks since he as trying to bring in Ever Banega.
No doubt, some foaming at his keyboard grumpy old man will call me an apologist for saying this, but in response all I’d say is take a look at the players available and if you’re still in denial, well I’ll indulge in a bit of childish namecalling myself and call you a Fantasist.
When we win, they want us all to creme in our kecks, and call Moyes a genius, and say this is the best Everton squad ever.
When we lose, they just want us to keep quiet, not criticise, and just shrug our shoulders, as if to say ’ It’s just one of those things ’
That must be why managers are never sacked during the course of the season, eh?
It’s only fair to say that Moyes isn’t being criticised because his team are playing badly & that this is uncharacteristic - quite the reverse. His teams have been fairly consistent in producing poor quality football, but his relative success in the league seems to be adquate compensation for most. I think it’s fair to say that most supporters are probably looking at Moyes whole tenure as manager, not just the last couple of months.
Look at the team he’s being forced to put out. It’s disjointed and the football will naturally be the same. Time for a reality check and also time to get behind the players who are fit and grinding out a 1-0 will have to do until most of the injured players return.
Yes we do have a good squad but half the squad has been injured. I also give a fuck about wrexham because if you dont learn from other teams mistakes u will likely make the same mistakes that they have.
We played some good stuff toward the end of last season with cahill in the middle of the park and other players taking responsibilty, If your happy playing one up front to the likes of stoke and wolves, good for you.
In my opinion we still have a much better team than both of these and should beat them playing football, not at their own game. One stoke in particular have perfected.
We have hardly played a good team yet and we are nowhere in the league. The first good team we play in europe forced us to resort to twatting the ball up the pitch, to a striker who jumnps about three inches off the floor and couldnt get his head on a beachball.
Are you telling me a midfield of england’s brightest young prospect, belgiums best young player, Australia’s talisman who they all look up to and a 24yr old russian with a load of caps for his country and has the distiction of having created more goals in the europa league than any other player cannot pass the ball along the floor and move into space to retrieve it for each other? We do have the players to play football!
Don’t be put off by the unduly aggressive reaction you have received from some in this thread - there are more of us who can see the broader picture.
Dismissing Flynn/Wrexham as being irrelevant is ridiculous.
Whether we ’care about them’ is irrelevant in itself. The parallels are clear to see, as they are in many other places: from Curbishley at Charlton to Ferguson at Manchester United.
Things are tough right now and we have a long way to go. Crucial to how soon we begin to make tangible progress are the key players who also have a long way to go before they can exert their much-needed influence.
In the meantime, we’re doing OK, with a run of seven undefeated games before Benfica.
Even then in the first half, we looked at ease and as good as them. Then we were sucker-punched and the match began to reflect the respective team sheets.
But until someone can suggest a better, feasible, more effective alternative, I’m proud of the year-on-year progress David Moyes is achieving and believe we have the best squad we have had for more than 20 seasons.
Yesterday’s results from Stoke and Wolves (not to mention Wigan and even Burnley in recent weeks), should have quietened some of the more the blinkered critics on here who regard them as nothing more than cannon fodder. Clearly not.
So keep your tin hat handy... you’ll need it!
We’d all love to watch good football AND get the results, but ultimately we all know which is more important.... even though we are seeing neither just now with a severely weakened squad.
Re - your point about the midfield: Yes you would think those 4 could produce something on the face of it, but think again - is that 4 the right blend? So much of football is about how players fit together and we have been a Team greater than the sum of its parts for a while now because of Moyes finding the right combination. The Quartet you mention is lacking a ball winner, a tackler, a person who gives the others room to play, hence we get overrun and look powder puff at times.
When Carsley and Neville played together the balance swang too far from creativity. With Neville in there, he gives us that platform to play. I say this Knowing full well his limitations and that he is the worst passer of a ball at the Club in my opinion. It’s all about combinations and currently we have too many players missing and new players fitting in for us to find the right blend. That won’t last foever though.
We have a very good first 11 but 3 or 4 of them are out injured and the squad players we have to replace them with are not as good so playing more defensively we have more chance of getting a 1-0 win or a draw. Unless all or most of our first 11 are fit and in form we will have to play the way we do as the quality of the whole squad is not able to keep to the standard required to beat teams, even mediocre teams, week in week out..
The likes of the shite fall apart without their two lady boys and even the Mancs (both) would struggle with losing so many first choice players. So, without mega money (please, one day, please) and a much improved squad, we will have to put up with grinding out results any way we can and wait till we have a full squad of players to pick from.
So, until we have investment or a fully fit squad, both not going to happen in the near future, we will carry on playing boring negative football and grinding out results, most weeks positive results. But we must not blame the manager, we have to look at the investment put into the club; other clubs have grown, we have not had the chance.
So, to finish off Davy Moyes is doing as good as any one could with the players that are available to him and without investment this looks as good as it gets. Sorry but that's my view... and to all those who say, "Be careful what you wish for" look at Chelsea and the Mancs — that's what I wish for.
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We've already been on the downward spiral — did it even register with you that we were BOTTOM of the league for the best part of a month! Only now we are clawing our way back up.
Talk about "Endless Dabate"... it's simple: We supposedly have the best squad for 20 years... so why aren't we playing better football and getting better results? Instead of playing the most turgid garbage, drawing at home to beatable teams, and losing horribly in Europe?
And pardon my French but who gives a flying fuck about bloody Wrexham!?!?!