The Mail Bag
Injured Logic
Comments (54)
The impact of injuries on Everton’s performances has been grossly overstated. Before the Bolton game, David Moyes was quoted by Sporting Life saying, “I will just have to wait and try to find 11 players to face Bolton." I love that: “try to find.” It sounds like he is beating the bushes around Finch Farm and shaking people off the treatment table to make up the numbers.
But look at the side that took the field against Bolton. Howard, Hibbert, Distin, Cahill, Saha and Fellaini are all regulars. Rodwell had appeared in 7 league games this season before Sunday, Jo has had two starts and five substitutions but can’t be said to be inexperienced. He’s supposed to be a big-ticket premium signing.
Both Heitinga (47 caps for Holland) and Lucas Neill (more than 250 Premier League appearances) are very experienced at this level. Indeed, Neill was signed precisely because he could theoretically play in any defensive position. So where is all this inexperience? Gosling. That’s it.
The bench was full of kids, and that’s a problem, but it was the experienced players in the starting XI that lost that very winnable game. I’m not saying having Yobo, Osman, Pienaar & etc wouldn’t have strengthened the team, but if players like Heitinga and Neill, Distin and Fellaini can’t perform adequately at this level, why were they signed?
Ironically, some missing players, like Neville, Baines, Yobo and Osman who would have made such a difference according to some, are routinely excoriated by critics as not good enough when they do play.
You can’t use injuries as an excuse for every lost game. It masks the real problems. There are always injuries. We lost because experienced players played badly and we — again — gave up three soft goals.
Unless David Moyes has more than excuses to deal with the free-fall down the table, I hesitate to think where we will be at the end of November after playing Aston Villa, Manchester Utd and Liverpool.
Peter Fearon, Posted 25/10/2009 at 15:17:38
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Michael, Neill was not match-fit he hadn't played for months.
A fit Arteta, Jags, Yakubu, Neville, Pienaar, Baines, and possibly Bily would have walked straight into this team.
Bolton are also full of experience and probably playing an XI closer to their prefered team than we are, yet coming from two down and losing at the end bring out the Tony Marsh in most ToffeeWebbers.
Everyone was crying out for signings in the summer, and though we have so many of our better players out we are again split into the two groups. Those who have empathy for the situation (though defeat still hurts) and those who think the second XI of our underinvested squad should still beat Bolton away.
Perhaps its the hightened expectation that Moyes gives us every season, and after a few negative results our dreams seem to come to an end. But some of us believe we’ll be in the top 6 come May. Just like we did when the club were on the same points at this stage last season.
Michael, during the summer people wrote in demanding signings or they will never go to a match again etc. You were always quick to respond along the lines of ’Another one snaps and loses it’.
Given a few of your responses recently, I’d say the same about you.
Though couldn’t agree more, I don’t give a flying fuck about Wrexham either!
We’re missing the entire heartbeat & creative core of the team. Of course it will have an effect. Some people seem incapable of distinguishing between adequate and excellent. Many of the players we are missing are in the latter category.
Doesn’t excuse everything Moyes does, but try and see our plight for what it really is, rather than using it as another bogus excuse to beat someone with.
We need Yobo and Baines back asap and we can then leave Hibbert out (as hard as he tries he is just not good enough) and Heitinga and Neill can fight it out for RB.
I think the scoreline sort of reflected our predicament, we still have good players as the goals showed but our defence is in bits.
I am really looking forward to having a fully fit squad. Giving Moyes some great options at the back and a MF of that contains 5 of the following — Cahill, Fellaini, Rodwell, Billy, Pienaar, Neville and Arteta in MF (Osman will be watching on).
I just wished that we had played the likes of Chelsea, Utd, City, Spurs etc already as we may as well lost to those ... rather than picking up a combined 2 pts against Stoke, Wolves, Fulham, Burnley & Bolton.
That’s 9 players usually conisdered ’first 11’ by Moyes.
It's likely if all were fit Jo, The Big Hair, Neill, Gosling, Heitinga and Rodwell would not be playing.
Ok, that’s only half a team but Jags, Yobo, Osman, Vaughan, Anichebe, Arteta, Bily, Baines, Neville... probably some more would have given Moyes the chance to play to his gameplan.
We should have been able to deal with Bolton’s threat with the players we had on the field. When we were humiliated by Benfica, I heard people say, "Well, if only Heitinga and Neill had been eligible, the result would have been different." After Bolton shove three past us, I’m hearing, "Well, what do you expect. Heitinga and Neill were playing instead of..." [perm any two from five].
Yobo cost us 2 points against Wolves — but we lost against Bolton because he was injured? Yakubu was invisible against Benfica — but we lost against Bolton because we lacked his threat? It makes no sense.
My reasoning for Neville: In my opinion he’s the best balance between offence and defence in that position; our other options tending to good at one or the other (in general!). When he played with somebody of Arteta's quality in front of him, Neville linked up fantastically but knew when to stick and when to twist. He’s also a talker... a vital element in a back four... and he never hides.
I’d be the first to agree he’s not the greatest ball player in the world but good teams are about blending different types of player to make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. For me, Neville would be in that blend.
Give ya Distin though... inspired signing by Moyes and on current form probably would get the nod over Joey Yo.
The PL is bloody competitive this season with everybody beating everybody else and margins fine. At the moment, all our ’margins’ are sat in the treatment room. Depressing.
On the otherhand, although we have signed replacements, there is only Hibbert from last season's defence still playing at present (the others being Lescott, Jags and Baines), and even he is playing centre/left back!!
Let us hope we see some improvement both on the pitch, and in the treatment room very soon.
Obviously, I think today’s performance underscores how incredibly thin our squad is. With Pienaar and Baines out, it looks like we’ve fallen off a cliff. We don’t have a second string. Frankly, I thought Saha was the only quality player on the pitch for us. Neill made some great passes but could not carry his weight in defense. Rodwell was fine but hardly inspirational. I thought Gosling, Hibbert, Heitinga, and Coleman were poor. And I don’t know what Jo is but he doesn’t look like an out-and-out striker.
I also think today’s performance showed how severely limited Fellaini and Cahill are as "creative" or "game-changing" players. In terms of Fellaini, I’d sell him but I don’t know who would buy him. I don’t care that he scored today or that he’s 21. I don’t see what he brings to any truly quality Premier League 11. And I think Cahill is having an awful season. Who is the midfield player that is going to inspire the rest of the team to raise their game? Pienaar? Neville? Arteta?
Yet, I contend, with more prior match practise for Dan Gosling, he would perhaps have done the right thing at the crucial moment; the scoreline would have been reversed, and we would have a win to celebrate. The margins really are that fine.
Jagielka
Neville Yobo Baines
Bilyaletdinov Arteta Osman Pienaar
Yakubu Anichebe Vaughan
And no doubt we will pick up another injury to go with another defeat against Spurs followed by more injuries and defeats to Villa and Benfica the football gods will only be happy until we field an entire team of youth players.
Play the whole Milk Cup winning side in the Carling Cup and don't risk the wrath of Lady Luck.
Rodwell, for a young guy, was totally out of it in the first half and Gosling got in some good crosses but we don’t have a Joe Royle or Duncan Ferguson these days. He didn’t seen to have the confidence to get into the box himself when he had time to do so.
So another not too surprising a result in the end but the lack of speed in midfield and poor passing is inexusable and continues to cost us.
''They have been told — you don't play like that and play for Everton, So it is up to them to sort it out now. I will help them and coach them but at the end of the day they are the ones who cross the white line and they need to roll their sleeves up. I'll protect them. But if they don't do basic things like head the ball and defend set-pieces, then it is themselves they need to look at."
Personally, I couldn't have put it better myself, but feel free to rip me apart and give your own opinions!
We have the Moyes apologists claiming it is unreasonable to expect understudies to The Stars to perform even the basic tasks of professional football... while on the other hand, we have Moyes himself (by his standards) reading those players the riot act for continuing to disappoint him with their lacklustre performances.
While the third school of thought maintains that the fault lies with Moyes himself, and his abject failure to prepare the squad (that is, ALL his players) adequately for the rigours of the season.
A lot of finger-pointing, and a generally rather sad state of affairs.
We appear to be carrying dead wood, far too much of it and nowhere near enough fans and supporters voicing their disgust at the spectacle put before them as paying customers. What I don’t accept is more worthless soundbites not accepting responsibility for another turgid match, another toothless display, another defeat from the guy paid an awful lot of cash to deliver results.
Take Gosling for example, he would have played the game for at least 10 years. Most of that time under qualifyed coaches.
He should be at or near the peak of his physical powers. Dan's fabulous wage, by ordinary standards, ought to be an incentive for him to strive for perfection.
Despite all that, against Benfica he was out-muscled, out-paced, out-thought, out-jumped... was useless in the tackle and a woeful passer of the ball. On top of that, he lacked any semblance of positional sense. He was completely out of his depth and there was nothing about him that I found worthy of praise..
I can only say what I see and I make no apology should it seem a bit harsh on the lad.
A few have pointed out, and I agree 100%, that the Premier League this season is a very different beast. It is a much more competitve situation. Most teams, IMO, are improved. The League itself is much more balanced. I’m convinced points are going to be, and have been, much more difficult to grab.
Man City, Spurs, Sunderland, Stoke, Fulham - all much better. Even most of teams we should steam-roll aren’t push overs: Wolves, Birmingham (new ownership), Wigan, hell even Burnley.It seems just a more level playing field and a true challenge week in and week out.
Could it be we just simply can’t expect to beat some of these mid-table teams the way we have in the past? Therefore do we have to accept the loses to Burnley and Bolton, and draws and draws to previously inferior teams? Is it just going to be that kind of season?
I’m making no excuses for some real poor play we’ve seen at times the last few weeks.But doesn’t the entire league just seem hugely competitive this season? Hence, the lack of points we have come to expect, especially against teams we "should" beat?
Don’t misread — there’s a zillion things affecting our form currently. But it does seem more difficult, and the improvement around us is making life challenging. I’d enjoy hearing some opinions about this poorly thought out, knee-jerk hypothesis.
Not just us of course, Arsenal allowed the hammers to share the points against lowly West Ham having been two-nil up with on 15 mins left! Moneybags Manc City chuck away a 2-goal home lead to Fulham with Lescott directly at fault for both goals... Even the RS managing a win over a much better team... Freak results abound this season in general but this weekend in particular.
I always think we are more entitled to realistically appraise the season once 10 plus games in, which we are obviously approaching. Beyond question the team has let the fans and themselves down as we are miles away from where every objective observer would predict.
The number of injuries are obvioulsy relevant but do not explain all our failings. Mistakes have cost us dearly. I expect Gosling has learnt an important lesson from his failing to pass to give us a near certain goal, and that Moyes will now will give Neill a run at Right Back having seen him give the best RB performance for us this season by a country mile, creating both our goals while doing so.
One thing I hope (but sadly don’t expect) is that the team show more attacking aggression, particularly versus the teams we have been too negative against in the past. If we can do that and turn a couple of them over that will be a big confidence and points boost and enable us to claw back some of the shocking results so far. If the likes of Villa and Sunderland can win against the CL regulars then in no way should we be unable to either.
Having the likes of Jags and Arteta back and firing will obviouly help and thank Christ they are not far away.
COYB!
The people who claimed we would be better off when Heitinger and Neill were available are not neccasarily the same people who are saying, "What do you expect these two were playing" nor are the people who bemoaned the absence of the Yak likely to be the same people who complained he was annonymous in Lisbon.
You’re taking every point of view you disagree with and claiming they all belong top the same group of people. They dont.
Michael
You dismiss A Kirwin's post as defeatest, Why ? God knows I’ve had my disagreements with this guy, but isn't he just stating the facts? Like Peter you seem to believe there are two camps here — although you seem to now be accepting a third point of view — you are wrong too.
Are you really claiming anyone who recognises we have an injury crisis — because thats what it is — is a Moyes apologist ?
Going on to the nature of the beast, if you don’t set out your team with a season long strategy of where you need to gain points to stay in the league, "bankers" then where exactly would you expect the forty or so points just to stay in the league to come from? On top of that you’d expect again rationally to improve from your previous season’s exploits; beat teams you came close to beating the season before and give the teams you got battered by a game to remember this time round.
The manager and his staff should be watching every game they can or having them watched to probe and analyse the oppsoition’s strentghs and weaknesses and organise the team they need to put out to play them and ways they can change the game as it goes on with substitutions.
All of this sounds like teaching your gran to suck eggs but it’s not working at Everton as the style and approach of games is stale and predictable, you can bet every other manager knows what to expect from Everton and watching the games so far you can clearly see that homework come to fruition. So this level playing field is the making of a lack of preparation and investment and another season of stagnation at Everton and not some miraculous or unfortunate circumstances.
I repeat again, if we can't gain points from lower and mid-table teams then where will the points come from to stay in the league?
Players moving on and injuries have always been part of the game and it’s very rare for any manager to have a full squad and the right balance of players to choose from.
As far as Neill not being match-fit — whose fault is that? He’s only appeared in the Reserves once and he’s been here weeks. Still we can blame it all on Kenwright — that always makes it feel better!
And why are we getting so many injuries? Poor training? Poor physio treatment? Probably a combination of both. I would sack the lot including Moyes. Yeh, I know it won't happen but that doesnt mean I’m not right.
Arteta was easily one of the top midfielders in the country. He could have gone for £20 million plus if one of the big Spanish sides had come in for him.
Pienaar’s maybe not up to the same level but his performances for Everton this (calendar) year and for South Africa in the summer would have seen his value increase sharply.
The Yak is back, but he’s not REALLY back, at least not yet. He’s a 20-goal-a-season player who should be approaching the peak of his career. Fully fit, who knows what price he’s fetch?
Bilyaletdinov’s fee is presumably much the same as it was in the summer.
We all know that Lescott’s price was inflated, but there’s no denying that Jags was the better defender. You’d have to figure that he’d attract offers in excess of £10 million.
You could say the same about Baines, who’s improved dramatically since coming in to the side.
Yobo is a (mostly) solid performer who’d fetch a reasonable sum.
You might same the same of Neville, although his age will reduce his value.
Even lesser players like Osman, Vic & Vaughan would fetch a few million between them.
Add that lot up and you’re looking of something in the region of £100 million.
With the possible exception of Real Madrid, how many teams can you name that could afford to have that much talent ripped out of the squad? To suggest that we should be any different is just utterly, utterly deluded.
3-2 away to Bolton with 10 players out to me is acceptable. Not nice. But acceptable.
The players we are fielding are not members of the crowd who brought their boots along..they are highly paid, expensive premier league...and in most cases international footballers...
And they are failing miserably to do the simple things.
A lot of people on hear whinge about the repetition of the ’negatives’ on this site... do any of those people realise that the constant repetition is due to the same bloody mistakes being repeated week-in, week-out by the manager and players?
Lazy overpaid waste of space! Not to mention Moyes is using him to destroy Tim Cahill by playing Cahill outwide to accomodate this useless dope.
However, it’s obvious for us all to see that we have square pegs in round holes at the moment - so although the players on paper look good, they are either not playing there natural position or are making their first appearance for us.
I’ll reference Jags as a case in point to highlight this. When he joined us 2 years ago - he started in Midfield and looked appalling. When he settled (i.e. after a run of games) into his natural position of CB he looked class. Unfortunately we have no options at the moment than to put people into these types of positions, i.e. cahill, Hibbert, Heitinga — which takes away their effectiveness and also creates weaknesses for us. Or play Neill, Gosling etc when they are not up to speed.
Anyway, to try and draw a line under this, does anyone know when the following will be back and playing for us:
Pienaar, Yobo, Baines, Neville, Billy, Osman.
As with 2 or 3 of these players back in contention we will look a different proposition. Especially Pienaar & Baines on the left and Yobo back in defence.
I’m not going to even mention Arteta & Jag’s return dates as no-one knows yet to what standard they will be able to get back too.
Firstly, some people seem to be on auto-pilot. Whilst Sunday’s game was a disappointing result, I actually thought we played a lot better football than we have recently. The goals were a class apart from the usual set-pieces, crosses and scambles which lead to our goals. Generally the ball was kept on the floor (until we conceded the third at which point we lost our heads) and both Saha and Jo were effective at holding up the play and creating space for themselves. It certainly wasn’t the ’turgid’ display Gavin claims.
Secondly, it’s all very well claiming that the team that was put out had sufficient experience to play well. However, quality counts for as much. No, I wasn’t ashamed of the names on the team-sheet (although the bench was a depressing sight) but Saha was the only player I would be excited to see. There’s very little inspiration or sense of players a class apart in the team at the moment. That’s what the injury crisis deprives us of and that’s what separates the Everton of 2007-08 when we played some great football from the team that struggled against Wolves/Stoke/Bolton.
Lastly, to the editor, I thought we’d banned the word ’apologist’ due to it being a cheap-shot used to belittle any opinion that supported Moyes. I know you like to keep things open and uncensored but it really is depressing when that tag is bandied around like those who disagree are societal outcasts "don’t worry about his opinion, he’s an apologist".
Not likely.
Jagielka, Baines, Yobo, Neville, Arteta, Pienaar, Bily, Osman, Yakubu, Vaughan, Anichebe. All missing.
Howard, Neill, Heitinga, Distin, Hibbert, Gosling, Fellaini, Rodwell, Cahill, Jo, Saha. An unbalanced side, but one with ability and experience.
As has happened several times this year, we don’t get started until we’re behind. Why? Lack of leadership? Morale?
2 points against Burnley, Fulham, Wolves, Stoke and Bolton is not good enough, whichever way you look at it.
First of all he is 19, and even Stevie G admitted to feeling out of his depth at a similar age when he was up against David Ginola in his prime.
For all we know Dimaria could take next year's World Cup by storm. This also shows that 19 is not your prime for a midfielder, the peak years for a midfielder are between 22-28.
We also don't really know Dan's true position, is he a RB is he a midfielder?
On top of this he never had much cover from Tim Cahill who is not a right winger or Tony Hibbert who is not a CB. I think it is a little harsh for you to judge him on the performnce against Benfica.
Lucas Neill was an absolute disgrace yesterday, he was blowing out of his not inconsiderable arse after about 40 minutes. I’ll accept he couldn't be match sharp, but fucken hell, there was people in the ale house fitter than him! He didn't have the energy to take any of the free kicks he wasted around their area after we’d got level, was too tired even to hoof it in the second half, hitting the attacker twice and only getting out of jail through poor finishing.
This guy has sat around for months doing nothing, you’d think professional pride would make him train a bit harder. His pathetically weak header that ultimately cost us the game just about summed him up. No wonder no one wanted him, he should only have been taken on under Saha-like terms.
Oh and a question to all those Ossie haters who said he was the weak link and the main reason we were playing so badly... Enjoying his absence are you?
Do these people train...?
The fact that we are still struggling without him hardly proves that he was actually doing really well on the pitch — it simply proves that he wasn’t and isn’t the only problem...
Fact is, without Arteta and Pienaar, and possibly Bily, we have no creativity at all and it’s going to be a struggle to create.
So all I’m asking is when are these vitally important three going to be back for us? Until then, we will struggle.
I can't believe Gosling didn’t have the vision to pass when through on goal. The goals we conceaded yesterday wer embarrassing and I don't know what Howard was playing at for the second goal. The header went in the middle of the net for fuck's sake.
I think the players and Moyes are feeling sorry for themselves with the current injuries. Well they need to snap out of it soon or the season is going to be over quick!!
I thought Jo actually played pretty well. He’s been poor this season but his all-round game, to me, seemed more reminiscent of his debut. He was far more combative in the air and seemed able to make space for himself for once. There were still frustrations with him, but he was worth keeping on the pitch in my view.
As for Gosling, it wasn’t vision that was the problem, if you watch the video he’s angling to square it, he gets an accidental touch with his left foot — clumsiness under pressure was the problem.
Compared to other Premier League teams, our players quite clearly lack sharpness and stamina. Our team takes every opportunity to pause for breath. Where others take fast throws and free kicks to quick-moving team-mates, ours are ceremonial, almost cathedral-like and only after players of both sides have duly taken their designated places. Long ball punts to nowhere are another sign of a desperate team seeking a breather.
We have had more than our fair share of soft tissue and ligament injuries. Poor physical condition, not only bad luck is recognised as being a major cause. Now that Moyes has belatedly and publicly identified the problem — what will he do about it?
I would say in defence of the team that realistically how much game time has that 11 had together before, certainly in the defence area that was a completly new line-up.
Most people would agree that Hibbert isn’t good enough at right back, but he has played right across the back line now.
Times are hard, but Wolves, Stoke and Bolton we should have beaten with the team that we used.
I’ve read many other times that Everton are regarded as one of the fittest and most dogged teams in the Premier League. Moyes has always made it clear he sets high standards of fitness and that paid off last season with a large number of late goals.
Perhaps the reason we ran out of steam was that Heitinga, Neill and Distin weren’t signed during pre-season (a problem in itself but not the one you were talking about) and Fellaini was ill pre-season and, by most accounts, is still recovering. On top of that, it’s hardly unheard of for teams to suffer a hangover after a midweek European trip.
If you read the full gist of mine, or other, posts you will note that I have a number of issues with Moyes. Not for the first time you ensure the facts don’t get in the way of a stupid post.
By your superiority logic, it doesn’t matter what team Everton put out, or how many times our defensive line up has changed recently (8 times in 8 games) we should simply win the fucking game. Right?
Is this the quality of debate that you want on this site? Are you seriously suggesting (and the answer seems to be yes) that any other team could do without 7 - 9 first choicers and just perform as usual? It doesn’t matter that it was against fucking Bolton. Bolton have played well of late and should have beaten the mighty Spurs (that some on here seem to get off on) and Spurs had their first team out.
As I said on here (if you fucking read) and elsewhere, it doesn’t absolve Moyes of everything. He has cases to answer. But to dismiss our current plight as though an utter irrelevance is, frankly, vaccuous bollocks.
The fact that the team we put out, with all it’s absentees, last minute changes and inexperience, got so close to even winning the game actually is a positive. Our defence, usually our bedrock, is a problem area. If you really can’t see why that should be right now then I worry for you.
It’s a pity that points can’t be made on here, even when explicitly balanced & mitigated, without being instinctively polarised by the fucking editor himself.
The second problem is the injuries we have are to the players who are most capable of keeping the ball therefore denying Bolton the opportunity to launch anouther ball into our box.
Thirdly, the defense have never played together before, just proving why losing Lescott and the understanding built up with Yobo or Jags over 3 or 4 seasons was such a big issue in the summer.
Does anybody think that a stronger outfield 10 would have been Neville, Jags, Yobo, Baines, Osman, Arteta, Peanuts, Bily, Anichebe, Yakubu. I think that says it all really. Perhaps we should not be looking to blame anybody. It's just sheer bad luck.
My specific point is that the idea that one can measure and complain about either our results &/or performances without any heed to our injuries (as you have done) is either being deliberately obtuse or provocative, or simply doesn’t understand the game.
And yet again you put words in someone else’s mouth. I won’t bother asking you to point out where I claim to be "happy" about our performances because I didn’t say that, you just made it up. You really must stop doing that.
What I am, Michael, is aware of the challenges in winning games at the highest level, the margins involved in such games, and the impact upon a team’s ability to do so when faced with the loss of many major team members.
When Liverpool lose Torres and Gerrard they are often shite, and they have a first team squad of 55 by the way. When Chelsea don’t have Lampard or Drogba or Cole or Terry they also suffer.
Stoke won at Spurs. Wolves deserved to beat Villa. Bolton deserved to beat Spurs’ first team recently. Wigan beat Chelsea. Burnley beat Man Utd. Do any of these results resonate with you?
It’s very simple, whilst you may think on paper we should have the beating of Bolton, Stoke, Wolves et al, the reality (shown time & again) is that we need our best players on the pitch to make that difference. You, and others, make the strange claim that it doesn’t mater who plays out of our squad, they should all be more than capable.
Whilst I may share the disappointment of our performances or losses (rather than being happy), your claims are nonsense.
Could not agree more.
Is there a time when the injury list gets to breaking point and where Everton can ask for their season to be put on hold?
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
