The Mail Bag
Small Club Mentality
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I've noticed it more and more over Moyes's tenure that the whole mindset around Everton is that of a small club. Right from the Board down to the fans.
As fans, if we truly believed Everton were a big club, would we really sit back and just accept the position we're in today? When I was a lad, Everton were winning things and challenging at the top of the table. When my dad was a lad, Everton were Merseyside's biggest club. I'd always regarded us as one of the country's biggest.
Now it seems we are gripped by total apathy. Most fans seem to have accepted that anything above mid-table and a good cup run is a good achievement. Most fans seems to have accepted it's okay that we're shit to watch because Moyes has brought us 'stability'. The first sign of a goal at Goodison and we'll hear Gwladys Street chanting Moyes's name again. Where's this grattitude towards Moyes come from?
It's obvious how one dimensional he is and we'll never win anything with him. Is it all to do with not wanting the bad old days of Wally Smith? So we should all just be grateful that we're no longer perrenial relegation battlers (although this season may see us turn back that way). Does this fear of going backwards again stop us having any ambition? When did people begin to accept losing to Bolton or drawing at home to Wolves or losing to Burnley?
What the hell has happened to us? There seems to be no fight amongst a lot of the fans to really challenge this Kirkby disaster that would see us move to the equivalent of the Riverside stadium or the Reebok.
There's no challenge from the fans to really demand answers from the board on why there's been no investment or what the hell is Green's involvement? Why was our summer of transfers more shambolic than the summer before?
Would Man U fans or Arsenal fans or even Liverpool fans sit back and watch their club slide into the hole we've been sliding into over the past two decades? We seem to be accepting our transition into a club of the same stature as Middlesborough. I want more from Everton.
I want our rich traditions to be upheld and I want to feel positive about the future of the club. The whole malaise surrounding Everton just leaves me feeling very depressed and utterly powerless so should I just accept it all and stop moaning?
Alan Clarke, Posted 26/10/2009 at 08:07:32
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If we were to play a cup final against the recognised so called "Big clubs" our demand for tickets as proved in last seasons cup run, would be greater than any of them. So we have a fan base of a big club. If you believe being in the top flight for ever makes you a big club, we tick that box too. Only Three teams have won more trophies — another box ticked.
Ask any fan to name three big traditional English clubs and we would probably be in there. But I believe these days a big club is measured by the size of its owner's wallet, in which case we are indeed a small club.
My miissus has always assured me size doesn't matter... and I refuse to listen to anyone who says any different!
When your missus has been pounded by someone, with something very big, then I’m sure she will let you know that bigger is better.
As at Everton, we are all waiting for someone with pockets very deep to come along and save the day. Big club!!! Well we were a couple of decades ago but then again so were Sheff Weds and Southampton. It's all fucking history mate.
Who would win? ...only one way to find out...
I got sent the true blue survey 2009 last week and at the very end there was a caption saying is there anything further you wish to add. I think they’re still reading it now!!!!!
Nil satis....
Fans of, amongst others, Preston, Sunderland, Huddersfield, Sheffield Wednesday, Adton Villa, Portsmouth, Wolves and Leeds Utd can all say exactly the same thing. Just depends how far back you care to travel.
I’m amused by people like yourself who think that, because our club was up there fighting for trophies when you were a lad, we should be so today. No doubt kids who started following Everton from the early 90’s will, with the exception of 1 season (until Moyes arrived) have very low levels of expectation because we were so utterly fucking shite season after season and relegation was a regular topic of conversation.
Times change, everything changes. There may be some bad luck along the way (and there was) but please, can we stop this dreamy nonsense about how good Everton were at a particular point in time. Up until recently Chelsea had won 1 league title, over 50 years ago and only on goal average. So fucking what?
Everton are one of countless clubs who have enjoyed some success at some point since English club football started. And the relevance to things today is?.....correct, zero.
How many of us expected and accepted what happened at Benfica and again at Bolton? We knew weeks in advance what Moyes would do in games this season and a sense of apathy has now engulfed the fan base.
I know real diehards who have given up and can't be arsed anymore.I am on the verge of spewing it myself and if Kirkby gets the nod, that's me done with football.
Small-club mentality? NO... but sick of being lied to and fed SHITE HOOFBALL for years? YES. We are slowly being drained of our spirit and the soul of the club the fans who are dying off one by one. Without the fans, the club is nothing.
It's not small-time mentality problems but more of a general "not interested and can't be arsed" problem. It will stay the same way as long as Moyes and Kenwright run the show and that's the biggest worry of all. Two clueless men running our club.
In previous lean years the supporters just would not accept it to the point of throwing cushions (that used to be given out in the seated areas) onto the pitch and howling for the manager or board to be sacked. Even PJ got the fans treatment.
Secondly, of all the clubs you mention only Villa even come close to EFC’s rich history.
If you say history doesn't matter would the media still be bigging up the RS who haven't won the league for nigh on 20 years?
Everton have a history to be proud of and we should be fighting to force the board to get us back where we belong in Football’s elite.
I personally can't wait to see the back of Kenwright and I don't care who we get.
Your claim that only the mention of Villa has any merit on the list I quoted is wrong. Huddersfield won 3 successive league titles in the 30s. Even Preston were a fine team at one point. Are you seriously sugesting Leeds don’t have a proud history? Have you actually seen how many 1st’s, 2nd’s, cup wins & losing finalists they had between 65 and 75?
Everton do have a proud history. But a) it isn’t ALL proud, and b) so do plenty of other teams. And again, it all depends how far back you are prepared to go.
We had a 5-year period in the 80s and our best league decade in the 60s with 1 title, two 3rd’s, two 4th’s, two 5th’s, 6th, 11th and 16th... one cup win and one losing final.
It is incontestable that top flight football is less egalitarian than it was in the 60s, i.e. it’s more difficult to succeed due to the disparity with the Sky 4.
With that in mind, and by contrast, in Moyes’s 7 years we have had a 4th, two 5th’s, 6th, 7th, 11th and 15th. And one losing cup final.
I’m really sorry but, with the exception of 5 years out of 122 (1984 - 89) our recent record isn’t bad by any measurement. Many would argue (and plenty of people in the game, as well as independent pundits do) that we actually do excpetionally well to achieve what we do right now given the cash imbalance and the fact that our gates are now well down the league, unlike the 60s when we were always near the top.
And as for this: "I personally cant wait to see the back of Kenwright and I dont care who we get."
Words fail me.
To turn your statement round, the only supporter of this club that I can remember who has done anything to improve it is Blue Bill.
And the best ’small club’ statement I have ever heard came from someone who said he would never go to Kirkby to support EFC because it was too far from his local.
It is now acceptable to you that we lose 5-0 in Europe and 6-1 at home. It is now acceptable that we play dour football. No one is really accountable because there seems to be an excuse for everyone involved:
- Moyes. It’s not his fault he’s got injuries / small squad / lack of resources;
- Kenwright: It’s not his fault he’s got no money... after all, he loves the club.
All I know is that it’s someone’s fault that we are shit to watch and we’re losing to the likes of Bolton and we’re unable to beat Wolves at home. It’s someone’s fault we’ve not won anything since 1995 and we look very unlikely to at any point in the future.
Although my mailbag submission may read like a rant (probably because I’m so pissed off with Everton at the moment), I’m raising the point: do the likes of me, Tony Marsh, Wrende, and McGlone need to re-adjust our mentality to that of a Bolton or Middlesborough fan? When we were a big club, the fans used to do something. Now, no-one seems that arsed.
I’m neither pro- or anti-BK, but he hasn’t got the money needed to be a Prem club owner — he’s said that at regular intervals— it’s just the ranters don’t want to hear it.
Turn up? Buy season tickets? Be the best away support in the land/world?
How did the fans create the great days of the 80s. Kendall was one game away from the sack.
Count your blessings.
What have you done?
I think not only challenging and even breaking the top for the past 5 years is a massive achievement and we have improved. There is so much we can do with a first team of players out injured, including our captain and main playmaker.
And look where Nottingham Forest are? You talk about big club mentality when they have 2 European cups to their name. The best they have is Championship football. So come on, top 5 in the top league with no money is some achievement!
Kevy, look at the main response to this thread. The response I’d get would be "count your blessings!" Count my blessings for what? Shite football and an empty trophy cabinet? Endless mediocrity and a one-dimensional manager?
My perceived plight of the club is obviously not shared by more than a few, is it? I’m testing people here to see what the reactions are. It’s obvious a lot of fans have a small club mentality.
I will adjust mine accordingly from now and lower my expectations. If I accept we are nothing more than a Bolton or Middlesborough, then perhaps we’re doing okay.
There are two answers.
If the answer is Yes then tell me what I can do.
If the answer is No, then we should should contact Everton now and demand we have a better stadium.
Do you want to us to be a big club in spite of a Kirkby location? If so, then ask for a stadium that can reach a larger capacity, and look for ways that the transport can be improved.
Everyone sitting here saying it’s crap is getting us nowhere.
Most pundits know fuck all about anything that isn’t placed in front of their faces... and even then it’s a stretch. Lets' stick to cogent reasoning rather than bollocks.
Oh and bile filled rants win as the apologists were too apathetic to throw a punch...
It is now acceptable to you that we lose 5-0 in Europe and 6-1 at home"
No I haven’t, I have always been a pessimist in terms of Everton. "Everton never let you down" and that is true, just when you think something exciting is coming, they kick you in the nads.
Of course losing 5-0 and 6-1 is not acceptable; however as I and many have said numerous times, you can see why it happened and it just wasn’t the tactic of the manager, it was the "big" players not performing but most of all it was by fielding a team that would never have been fielded in a month of Sundays if it hadn’t have been for the injuries.
I am neutral if not a little anti Kenwright because the dozy bastard needs to keep his trap shut but I am not going to have a go at him because he isn’t a billionaire.
What part of my last paragraph on my first post is not true? You may call it small minded but I call it factual information, readily accessible by anyone.
How dare you ascribe words or views to me. If I want to share a view I will. You don’t have any idea what you are talking about.
For the avoidance of doubt, I can’t stand losing 1-0, nevermind 5-0. However, like most intelligent people, I am able to look at the full context of situations and make a call on what is worth getting upset about and what isn’t.
You talk utter bollocks in almost every sentence. Idiots like you who waltz around with this bizarre idea that a team with the 10th highest attendances, who have won next to fuck all for 22 years, and who have the 2nd worst stadium in the EPL, should somehow be up there every year challenging because we did for a few years in the 60s and 80s.
Tell me, on what basis should Everton expect to be more successful than Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool? I’m not asking if you want us to be (because I do too), I’m asking why we have a right to expect to be.
Dream on all you like, but don’t invent crap or put words in other people’s mouths to gloss over your own dreamy blue world.
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That’s the modern reality...and the reason why I consider Kenwright’s initial purchase of the club as negligent..he simply didn’t have the means to be financially beneficial to this club. And his purchase was simply a selfish act of indulgence.
Certain people on here have asked why the owner of a company should be expected to invest their own money in said company...I consider that an utterly daft question.
I don’t know what Abramovich’s motivation is for owning his club, but the super-rich aren’t well known for giving away free lunches.
I’m saying there are a lot of your types around who don’t believe we are a big club and therefore we shouldn’t expect to be winning things. We should all accept our place in the current game. Maybe that’s why so many Evertonians accept our place in the modern game and are also so accepting of the shite Moyes puts out week after week.
Maybe I’ve gone too far in saying you’re happy with losing to Bolton or being tonked in Europe but essentially what I’m saying is correct — you have a small club mentality. Dave Wilson was right about you though, you are a conceited arsehole.
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I’ve no idea how you managed to extrapolate what I said into what you posted...but investment in a business is usually done with the aim of increasing the profitability of that business...not losing money..
Although football can be considered substantially different from a normal business - it’s still very clear that investment can generate an increased bottom line...otherwise the likes of Arsenal and United and countless other clubs wouldn’t engage in costly marketing exercises or spending money creating the ability to increase their revenue streams..
What frightens me the most is this acceptance that Bullshit Billy is not to blame for the way the club has fallen. When we lose matches does David Moyes not take stick for the teams performances?? However, Moyes can only buy players with what money the board makes available to him which if you look at this summer was NOTHING until Lescott was sold! Is this good enough?
Please don’t give me the name the investor / buyer bollocks because that really is pathetic. The question is if you were going to put your money into something would you do it for the option of part owning it or would you expext to fully own it?
I love Everton but I would not put my millions (should I have them) into this club to allow the Clown that is Kenwright to stay at the helm I’d want him out. Fact is that’s not what the board wants they do not want to sell until Kirkby is done then they can make a tidy profit from their shares, end of story.
I can’t say I blame them for wanting to make money but it is holding Everton back. We have been in the top 6 for the last 3 seasons and stood still which is disappointing.
I will never lower my standards as far as Everton are concerned because for me we are the 4th MOST SUCCESSFUL English club with a fabulous history and that is worth fighting for. If we just accept and try to justify in our minds otherwise then for me that is a very sad day .
Nil Satis...
You can call Moyes and Kenwright all you want but ,with the possible exception of Wenger, who else would you have? People moan about our current state (which, injuries aside, could be a lot worse) yet give no answers to our problems.
1/ Goodison? Kirkby is a no no because it’s outside the city limits, So what , i’m from outside the city limits, big deal. Ground share is a no no because we dont want to share, Oh grow up.
2/ Finances? answer rich benefactor or qualify on a regular basis for the champions league, as for the latter we aren’t good enough and wont be without finances. The rich benefactor will come along once the Goodison issue is resolved. The guy from Audi [I think] said dont give me something to make us 1000% better, give me 1000 things to make us 1% better, and there are lots of fuck ups that need sorting , our marketing for one.
3/ Kenwright, see finances
4/ Moyes, see finances
5/ Moyes's tactics, ok I’ll concede that point.
You certainly cannot now claim any higher ground over me when you’re calling me an idiot, silly fool and fuckwit. I have never claimed to be a better Evertonian than you. I wouldn’t level that at you, as in your own eyes, you are obviously the greatest. You’ve obviously got your finger on the button as you are a ’realist’. I’m not so therefore I must be a fuckwit like a few others you’ve called on these pages. To me it’s your attitude that acts like a tumour on our great club because as long as we’ve got people like you we’ll always have Kenwright and we’ll always have Moyes and therefore we’ll always be stuck where we are.
In spite of your beliefs as well Kirwin, your posts are far from balanced Alan and your latest tirade cannot be classed as anything but infantile crap as well. Perhaps me and Dave Wilson are lovers? Nice one!
Maybe I have youth as an excuse but I don’t see what your excuse is - perhaps too much of that fucking Rose you boast about drinking.
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That’s the modern reality...and the reason why I consider Kenwright’s initial purchase of the club as negligent..he simply didn’t have the means to be financially beneficial to this club."
Sounds like being a benefactor to me Ciarán.
You seem to be stating that it’s beyond your comprehension that investing money in the development of revenue streams, could not possibly provide an increased return for both the business, and vicariously - the owner.
That’s a pretty one dimensional view of business investment.
Seeing as you classed me akin to Alan I will take this one.
So me not jumping up and screaming for Moyes head after an embarrassing defeat is the cause of our club not winning anything? Fook me why didn’t you point it out sooner, we could have won a few leagues by now.
Silly me trying to find reasoning behind a heavy defeat sue to the inj.....shhhhh, we can’t mention that word or use it as an excuse anymore apparantly.
Sorry to put it to you but our great club, hasn’t been great in decades now. I suppose that is our fault aswel, we should have been like the knowledgeable Newcastle FAns getting a new manager every six or seven months, that worked out well didn’t it or better yet lets overspend and hope something clicks, forget the consequences.
We are an average team without a pot to piss in, there are few very good players in our team, that when fit, lift us aabove mediocrity but lets not pretend we are a "great team" anymore.
And to suggest that my apathy towards football in general now has any effect on whether Bullshit Billy sells his "trainset" or your ranting for that matter is just purly ridiculous. Don’t try and suggest because you moan more than I do, you somehow contribute more to what Everton FC stands for and my actions are more detrimental.
Abramovich and the Abu Dhabi United Group for Development and Investment are playing the market with shrewd investments? They’re weighing up the %ages and profiling the revenue streams? A much more likely scenario is that they are moving their assets for the time when Putin strikes at the oligarchs, or the oil runs out.
So who is going to make money out of EFC? Or buy a bit of Walton?
If you could stay away from benefactors and the problem case studies for one second you might be able to understand my point...
And please don’t resort to the ’who’ argument....
I still nearly cry every time I go to the Echo Arena. I still have the season ticket with the first priority voucher for the King’s Dock.......I’m off again....
And if you took any notice of what anyone says, you might notice that my question wasn’t ’who’ but ’why’?
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Looks like ’who’ to me.
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1 Posted 26/10/2009 at 14:13:46
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I think in comparison to the teams usually above us we are a small team, small in the matters of money, small in the matters of squadsize and small in the matters of winning anything in the last two decades.