The Mail Bag
Don't get Shirty with me!
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So relieved after the win against Burnley last night. However, I was left feeling disgusted after seeing scorer Pienaar, rip off his Everton shirt and throw it to the floor.
That shirt is to be respected, worn with pride and passion and occasionally to die for! I hope the club fine him for this public display of shirt abuse. I don't give a flying fuck about the hidden message under his shirt... it's the Everton shirt that means everything to me.
To see it thrown to the floor like that is disgraceful. Will somebody at the club remind Pienaar that the name on the front of the shirt means everthing... the name on the back of the shirt means nothing.
Tony Williams, Posted 29/12/2009 at 09:47:11
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Martin, I think Tony has a point...
I agree, Tony. I hope they all put them neatly in the wash basket when they have finished as well.
Christ on a bike Tony! If that is all we have to worry about we will have a bloody good season. A lot of players celebrate in a different manner and I for one am still glad to see that Piennar takes so much happiness in scoring for the Blues. Didnt the much lauded Ferguson pull his shirt off at times?
Tony - Ever thought about getting yourself a life, sounds like its long overdue.
Have to agree with Chris on this one, it’s not like he wiped his arse with it, he scored and celebrated big fucking deal, worst thing was the ref wasn’t even going to book him for it until some snide Burnley fucking pig breeding Dingle player complained.
We finally win a game that our performance more than deserves and still we get someone moaning about something trivial!!
Heaven forbid we start to win a few more games from now on, imagine the abuse the team will get, next time it’ll be someone complaining about the players spitting out their drinks or using their sleeves to wipe the sweat from their faces..........disgusting behaviour indeed!!!! Get a life!!
Heaven forbid we start to win a few more games from now on, imagine the abuse the team will get, next time it’ll be someone complaining about the players spitting out their drinks or using their sleeves to wipe the sweat from their faces..........disgusting behaviour indeed!!!! Get a life!!
I agree. if he wants to show his affinity for a mythical deity..he can go on songs of praise.
He knows that taking your shirt off is a sanctionable offence..and therefore is a muppet for doing it.
He knows that taking your shirt off is a sanctionable offence..and therefore is a muppet for doing it.
Tony,
Can you name me a player taking in to account injuries who has given more for the shirt this season than Piennar? With the exception of Cahill I don’t think theres another player who gives so much.
On a day when we struggled to break down the opposition the lad kept going right up to the whistle and sealed victory with wonderful goal.
Fine him? I’d much prefer us to offer him an improved contract and do what ever we have to in order to get him to sign it.
Can you name me a player taking in to account injuries who has given more for the shirt this season than Piennar? With the exception of Cahill I don’t think theres another player who gives so much.
On a day when we struggled to break down the opposition the lad kept going right up to the whistle and sealed victory with wonderful goal.
Fine him? I’d much prefer us to offer him an improved contract and do what ever we have to in order to get him to sign it.
Pienaar is undoubtedly one of our better players, but I’m not much interested in his personal superstitions, especially when he picks up a yellow card for advertising them - plonker!
Some people are too touchy.
Agree with Ciaron though, he knows he shouldn’t take his shirt off so why do it.
Agree with Ciaron though, he knows he shouldn’t take his shirt off so why do it.
If you are going to moan about something Tony then how about moaning at Moyes for bringing on Neville when Cahill went off rather than bringing on a forward.
Mythical in your opinion Ciaran!
The ruling about this type of celebration is absolutely pathetic and another erosion of the fan to player relationship. How many times do we see stewards almost assaulting players when they try to celebrate with their fans?!
Uefa/Fifa really are doing their best to kill the game we all fell in love with.
The ruling about this type of celebration is absolutely pathetic and another erosion of the fan to player relationship. How many times do we see stewards almost assaulting players when they try to celebrate with their fans?!
Uefa/Fifa really are doing their best to kill the game we all fell in love with.
If he scores more goals like that, I don’t care what he does with his flippin shirt!
The Everton shirt is occasionally to die for??!! This is the most pathetic post I have ever read. As someone already said, GET A LIFE!!! It’s a football club, they play a game, period. Anyone who would die for or kill for a fucking football shirt is worth less than the price tag of said shirt. Seriously, grow the hell up.
Bloody Hell, Tony! Whilst I agree that it is a stupid thing to do, as they all know they will get booked, to suggest he is disrespecting the shirt is just ridiculous. It’s called emotion and to be honest Pienaar hasn’t been playing that well for the last couple of games and has finally got a shot on target and celebrates with some relief probably. Yes, stop doing it because you get booked, not because some nutter thinks he is somehow disrespecting his employers.
At Christmas, the season of goodwill to all men, only an Everton player could get booked for celebrating God. It would've made more sense if the referee held up a Christmas card instead of a yellow one.
Personally, I think badge kissing should be a bookable offence. Fellaini has been booked for less.
In Steven’s position (in my dreams) my T-shirt might have been "Faith Is Murder" - but why should my belief be part of a footy match?
Steven was wrong in what he did.
Which makes me think he will go to the highest bidder, possibly in January and certainly if he has a good World Cup.
In Steven’s position (in my dreams) my T-shirt might have been "Faith Is Murder" - but why should my belief be part of a footy match?
Steven was wrong in what he did.
Which makes me think he will go to the highest bidder, possibly in January and certainly if he has a good World Cup.
Tony, would you perfer next time Pienaar was about to put the ball in the net, he decided against it because so-called fans criticise him for doing it?
Get your priorities right. Scoring goals and winning games is most important. Everything else is secondary.
Get your priorities right. Scoring goals and winning games is most important. Everything else is secondary.
Like millions, sorry billions of other people worldwide, Pienaar obviously draws strength from his faith. This was merely a demonstration of that faith.
Respect the guys beliefs, that's what makes him a player, that's who he is.
The stupid rule is wrong, not the lad's actions.
Respect the guys beliefs, that's what makes him a player, that's who he is.
The stupid rule is wrong, not the lad's actions.
Dave - had Steven’s slogan read -
"Suicide Bombers Go Straight To Paradise"
would you sttil agree?
Doubt it. Or am I wrong?
No place in my life. I look forward to the day when the Islamic owners of MCFC ban alcohol (an Arabic word) from Eastlands. The Mancs (as they used to be the only true ones) will say, yes, that’s right. And try to smuggle drink into the ground.
"Suicide Bombers Go Straight To Paradise"
would you sttil agree?
Doubt it. Or am I wrong?
No place in my life. I look forward to the day when the Islamic owners of MCFC ban alcohol (an Arabic word) from Eastlands. The Mancs (as they used to be the only true ones) will say, yes, that’s right. And try to smuggle drink into the ground.
The back of his shirt read, ’...but Big Dunc is greater’. Seriously, whatever drives the little man is up to him. With about 15 minutes to go, another chance went begging and Pienaar flapped his hands in exasperation, clasped them together and looked up to the skies. He went on to have a hand in both goals. I’m all Dawkins but fair play to him.
Tony, you’re spot on.
Great to see some emotion in times when most players don’t give a toss about the teams that pay their wages. However, I am annoyed that the inevitable booking brings him one match closer to a ban. Disrespect to the club and shirt, no way - stupidity, yes.
Having said that, what sort of bloody rule is it that bans players showing emotion? If you get booked for taking your shirt off when celebrating a goal, why doesn’ the whole team get booked at the end when the players exchange the bloody things?
Having said that, what sort of bloody rule is it that bans players showing emotion? If you get booked for taking your shirt off when celebrating a goal, why doesn’ the whole team get booked at the end when the players exchange the bloody things?
Anyone who has supported Everton for the past 20 years must know God may be great but he doesn’t like Evertonians. No amount of praying stopped the red shite getting us kicked out of Europe or stopped that bastard Collina disallowing that goal. If there is a God, He is clearly a red shite with the amount that’s swung their way over the years.
Chris Lawlor - mythical until proven otherwise. People have tried for thousands of years to debunk this myth but none have succedeed yet and I doubt they ever will. It will remain a myth forever for sad insecure people who need a crutch.
Ste -
It's no part of our life. Go to the theatre to be shocked in the way it promises (if you’ve got nothing better to do). Opera is usually OK. And about £40 a ticket.
You might pay £40 to see (the late great) Billy Graham - which is I’m sure what he would charge to get into his tent if he wasn’t already enjoying eternal bliss wherever he is. Perhaps some Catholics’ faith lead them to believe that he is burning in hell.
Steven has no right to use our club to propagate — propaganda is a Roman Catholic, not a leftie term -— his own faith.
By the way, if by any chance the God Steven was referring to was the one who let Lot shag his daughters — drunk at the time your honour — is the one he’s celebrating, he needs a bit of civil — not footballing — education.
It's no part of our life. Go to the theatre to be shocked in the way it promises (if you’ve got nothing better to do). Opera is usually OK. And about £40 a ticket.
You might pay £40 to see (the late great) Billy Graham - which is I’m sure what he would charge to get into his tent if he wasn’t already enjoying eternal bliss wherever he is. Perhaps some Catholics’ faith lead them to believe that he is burning in hell.
Steven has no right to use our club to propagate — propaganda is a Roman Catholic, not a leftie term -— his own faith.
By the way, if by any chance the God Steven was referring to was the one who let Lot shag his daughters — drunk at the time your honour — is the one he’s celebrating, he needs a bit of civil — not footballing — education.
Ooooooo good, this has turned into a religious debate, time for my tuppence worth!
If he had stripped his top off to reveal a message about a recently deceased friend or family member for example, I would have understood, but to do it to show people your faith in an entity that is no less made up than Inspector Gadget or the Thundercats is just ludicrus in my eyes!
Remember people, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof!!!
If he had stripped his top off to reveal a message about a recently deceased friend or family member for example, I would have understood, but to do it to show people your faith in an entity that is no less made up than Inspector Gadget or the Thundercats is just ludicrus in my eyes!
Remember people, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof!!!
Great celebration. If he wants to flaunt his beliefs so be it. Nice to see someone beleive in something more than just materialistic possessions these days.
As for the post itself... yawn.
Amen, Frank Nolan
Frank Nolan.
Don’t you mean the top ONE?
Don’t you mean the top ONE?
Without faith there’d be no St Domingo’s / Everton FC. As Dave Wilson said, beliefs should be respected.
It’s not faith that’s the problem, but lack of tolerance (be it due to colour, creed, goal scoring celebrations or whatever).
Pienaar was grateful to score and no harm intended, only good.
It’s not faith that’s the problem, but lack of tolerance (be it due to colour, creed, goal scoring celebrations or whatever).
Pienaar was grateful to score and no harm intended, only good.
It is always nice when Everton find the target, and I can fully understand that players showing their delights when scoring. But everyone knows that taking your shirt off results in a yellow card. Every fifth goal from Pienaar ends up in a suspension by doing this celebration. No other player in the league does this regularly, and neither should he.
Why don’t he stick to that "wheeling somersault-thing" he did some time ago? That is a celebration with dignity. But taking of your shirt to show of another t-shirt with "God is Great", how cool is that? I wonder how he thinks. "Well, let’s see here. If I score today, what kind of celebration shall I do then? Perhaps that eye-catching wheeling somersault that is spectacular and cool? Hmm... No, I go for that "God is Great" shirt, that will give me a yellow card. Yeah, bring Burnley on!"
But if you really want to send out an announcement by having a "secret" t-shirt under your match-shirt, why go for such a wimpish message as "God is Great"? I thought they were real men out there? Can you imagine, Duncan Ferguson after he scored the winner against United, four years ago, that he would display a hidden tank top with Mother Theresa's face on it? Or what about Barry Horne, after that screamer against Wimbledon in THAT game, showing a pink shirt with little red hearts all over it. And is it possible that Tony Hibbert upon his 35th birthday, just when he scores his first ever goal, the winner in the last second against Liverpool, rips his jersey off and proudly shows his yellow "Barbie-pyjamas" decorated with flowers and polka dots?
No, if Pienaar is to continue this art of celebration why not go all in with some cool shirts such as "Benitez is a FSW", "Torres is a girl", "El-Hadji Diouff is a stupid dick". One new shirt for every team we play against.
Otherwise, unless you are a good looking female, taking of your shirt should only be accepted under very humorous circumstances, such as Micky Quinn, Neil Ruddock, Jan Molby, Yakubu etc. doing this. Even Rafa Benitez gets my permission to take his shirt of in celebration. Or why not Mike Riley after a good decision, running to his assistants with his shirt waving above his head... Well, you get the point...
Why don’t he stick to that "wheeling somersault-thing" he did some time ago? That is a celebration with dignity. But taking of your shirt to show of another t-shirt with "God is Great", how cool is that? I wonder how he thinks. "Well, let’s see here. If I score today, what kind of celebration shall I do then? Perhaps that eye-catching wheeling somersault that is spectacular and cool? Hmm... No, I go for that "God is Great" shirt, that will give me a yellow card. Yeah, bring Burnley on!"
But if you really want to send out an announcement by having a "secret" t-shirt under your match-shirt, why go for such a wimpish message as "God is Great"? I thought they were real men out there? Can you imagine, Duncan Ferguson after he scored the winner against United, four years ago, that he would display a hidden tank top with Mother Theresa's face on it? Or what about Barry Horne, after that screamer against Wimbledon in THAT game, showing a pink shirt with little red hearts all over it. And is it possible that Tony Hibbert upon his 35th birthday, just when he scores his first ever goal, the winner in the last second against Liverpool, rips his jersey off and proudly shows his yellow "Barbie-pyjamas" decorated with flowers and polka dots?
No, if Pienaar is to continue this art of celebration why not go all in with some cool shirts such as "Benitez is a FSW", "Torres is a girl", "El-Hadji Diouff is a stupid dick". One new shirt for every team we play against.
Otherwise, unless you are a good looking female, taking of your shirt should only be accepted under very humorous circumstances, such as Micky Quinn, Neil Ruddock, Jan Molby, Yakubu etc. doing this. Even Rafa Benitez gets my permission to take his shirt of in celebration. Or why not Mike Riley after a good decision, running to his assistants with his shirt waving above his head... Well, you get the point...
"Without faith there’d be no St. Domingo’s / Everton FC. As Dave Wilson said, beliefs should be respected."
Without the slave trade the city of Liverpool might not be what it is. St Domingo’s might not have existed.
Is this an argument for slavery?
Believe what you like, but don’t expect me to agree that your belief allows you to kill a female member of the family who has disgraced, according to your medieval mind, your kinfolk Old Testament and Muslim texts will support you in your murder..
Steven was in the wrong, and I believe — in the proper use of that term — that he will sell out to the highest bidder as soon as possible. In the name of god of course, his wonders to perform.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
Without the slave trade the city of Liverpool might not be what it is. St Domingo’s might not have existed.
Is this an argument for slavery?
Believe what you like, but don’t expect me to agree that your belief allows you to kill a female member of the family who has disgraced, according to your medieval mind, your kinfolk Old Testament and Muslim texts will support you in your murder..
Steven was in the wrong, and I believe — in the proper use of that term — that he will sell out to the highest bidder as soon as possible. In the name of god of course, his wonders to perform.
I sincerely hope I’m wrong.
Tony, you must understand Stevie doesn't score that many goals. And that shirt underneath the jersey may have been there for too long. Sweat and Grim may have stuck both together. Give him a benefit of doubt.
I'm with Dave Wilson. It's a bloody stupid rule and quite pointless. Dangerous fouls go unpunished — that's serious.
"There are no atheists in a penalty shootout"
(FX Doyle, SJ)
(FX Doyle, SJ)
Hehe... I do enjoy seeing the atheists and agnostics blowing their trumpets whenever they get a chance, shouting from the rooftops to all that will listen... Aren't you lucky that you live in a society where your own intolerance of the way others live their lives is accepted.
Keith lad, you need to chill out, religion itself is not the problem, as most if not all propagate goodwill to all men and general harmony in life. It's man’s own interpretation and greed that creates the world we have now. If you really have an axe to grind, try global warming and consumerism, at least it's a more tangible option!
Now back to the football and less of the rhetoric.
Keith lad, you need to chill out, religion itself is not the problem, as most if not all propagate goodwill to all men and general harmony in life. It's man’s own interpretation and greed that creates the world we have now. If you really have an axe to grind, try global warming and consumerism, at least it's a more tangible option!
Now back to the football and less of the rhetoric.
Chris Lawlor
Agnostics are not the ones that you find pushing their ’belief’ — it is almost always the religious zealots — "My God is better than your God, na na de na na".
Most trouble & wars are caused by religious zealots who believe theirs is the only one true God and everyone should recognise that.
Jees, it's like saying Donald Duck is better than Mickey Mouse — ffs grow up, stand on your own two feet and accept there is no God, no life after death, just a natural progression: we are born, we live and then we die. Finito
Agnostics are not the ones that you find pushing their ’belief’ — it is almost always the religious zealots — "My God is better than your God, na na de na na".
Most trouble & wars are caused by religious zealots who believe theirs is the only one true God and everyone should recognise that.
Jees, it's like saying Donald Duck is better than Mickey Mouse — ffs grow up, stand on your own two feet and accept there is no God, no life after death, just a natural progression: we are born, we live and then we die. Finito
Religon is like children in that it should be rarely seen and never heard — stop pushing it down our throats — most sensible people don’t believe and don’t need a crutch to live a good life.
Surley this is a football fans website and not a religious one. If people choose to believe and have faith that is their choice and should not be criticised for it. Likewise if you believe the opposite then that is your choice.
Pienaar was not wrong in what he did other than he knows that taking off your shirt results in a booking.
Quote:
"Dave - had Steven’s slogan read - "Suicide Bombers Go Straight To Paradise" would you sttil agree?"
What a stupid ignorant post. There is a difference between believing in God and promoting terorism and murder.
Pienaar was not wrong in what he did other than he knows that taking off your shirt results in a booking.
Quote:
"Dave - had Steven’s slogan read - "Suicide Bombers Go Straight To Paradise" would you sttil agree?"
What a stupid ignorant post. There is a difference between believing in God and promoting terorism and murder.
For we Atheists, try Dawkins.net.
For the believers, do it yourself in private, not in front of 39,000 spectators.
For Satanists, try any LFC website.
For footy, try Toffeeweb et al.
For Peanut, well played and a great goal. But next time leave your shirt on. Your god is not that great.
For the believers, do it yourself in private, not in front of 39,000 spectators.
For Satanists, try any LFC website.
For footy, try Toffeeweb et al.
For Peanut, well played and a great goal. But next time leave your shirt on. Your god is not that great.
Fair play, Mick, as you seem incapable of reading a post clearly or maintaining a coherent debate, we will let this one lie.
Hope you had a nice Christmas, mate.
Hope you had a nice Christmas, mate.
I didn't realise that we have so many self-righteous fans. I trust that all those who have been quick to denounce Pienaar's faith as a myth didn't lift one glass in celebration, didn't open one Christmas present, didn't write or recieve one Christmas card, didn't put out presents for their children. If you did, then like me, your hypocrisy shouts far louder than Pienaar's message.
Religion deals with identity, identity deals with ego, and when that is threatened, nasty things happen.
We’re not far off some of you calling a rally and marching in straight lines... with guns.
We’re not far off some of you calling a rally and marching in straight lines... with guns.
Shaun Sparke
Christmas was originally a midwinter festival that celebrated the lengthening days. It was celebrated for thousands of years before Christianity and was hijacked as their celebration. I prefer to treat Christmas as a thanksgiving for the retreat of winter rather than as the birthday of a mythical figure.
Christmas can be enjoyed in those terms just as much as in a religious sense. I (like most people I suspect) do not think of Jesus when I lift my glass at Christmas.
I think this thread should be terminated as it is becoming less and less to do with Everton as my response shows! We could all meet up on RichardDawkins.net and carry on the debate there.
Christmas was originally a midwinter festival that celebrated the lengthening days. It was celebrated for thousands of years before Christianity and was hijacked as their celebration. I prefer to treat Christmas as a thanksgiving for the retreat of winter rather than as the birthday of a mythical figure.
Christmas can be enjoyed in those terms just as much as in a religious sense. I (like most people I suspect) do not think of Jesus when I lift my glass at Christmas.
I think this thread should be terminated as it is becoming less and less to do with Everton as my response shows! We could all meet up on RichardDawkins.net and carry on the debate there.
"...nice to see someone believing in something more than just materialistic possessions..."
Yeah, right Nick. That would be why he’s hanging out for a bumper pay rise & not signing a new contract eh?
Yeah, right Nick. That would be why he’s hanging out for a bumper pay rise & not signing a new contract eh?
Cost me a point on the fantasy league. Still one of our best players though.
I tell you what, if God is reading this thread, I bet She is pissed!!
Dave Roberts, do you seriously expect anyone to believe that you raised you glass on Christmas day in celebration of the retreat of winter? Oh come on man that is bullshit and you know it.
I am an avid reader of Dawkins and went to see him give a talk at the Philharmonic in Liverpool a couple of years ago. I must say he is a better writer than he is a speaker. I actually agree with many of his thoughts on religion but isn't it ironic that nobody will probably remember him in two thousand years from now.
I am an avid reader of Dawkins and went to see him give a talk at the Philharmonic in Liverpool a couple of years ago. I must say he is a better writer than he is a speaker. I actually agree with many of his thoughts on religion but isn't it ironic that nobody will probably remember him in two thousand years from now.
I raised my glass in celebration of the next Jack Daniels to come.
Religion has no place in football and neither does elastic bands.
Religion has no place in football and neither does elastic bands.
"Religion has no place in football.."
Football is a religion.
Surely football consists of Myths, Rituals, Experiences. Doctrines, Ethics, Social Aspects and Material forms - (the seven dimensions that can define a religion according to Ninian Smart).
Football is a religion.
Surely football consists of Myths, Rituals, Experiences. Doctrines, Ethics, Social Aspects and Material forms - (the seven dimensions that can define a religion according to Ninian Smart).
Shaun Sparke, I didn’t say I did drink to the retreat of winter. What I did say was that Christmas was originally a midwinter festival and that when I did have a drink at Christmas it was not in the light of a belief in a fairy-tale.
If you think that is bullshit then that is not my problem... it’s yours. I hate the dark days of winter and it cheers me up no end when the days start to get longer. That was the purpose of the original midwinter solstice and I personally understand why they held it!
It remains to be seen whether Dawkins will be remembered in 2,000 years time but long memories prove nothing. The Egyptians ’remembered Ra for 3,500 years and the Babylonians remembered Marduk for about as long. Does that mean they were real?
If you think that is bullshit then that is not my problem... it’s yours. I hate the dark days of winter and it cheers me up no end when the days start to get longer. That was the purpose of the original midwinter solstice and I personally understand why they held it!
It remains to be seen whether Dawkins will be remembered in 2,000 years time but long memories prove nothing. The Egyptians ’remembered Ra for 3,500 years and the Babylonians remembered Marduk for about as long. Does that mean they were real?
In time even they were relegated to myth and I have no doubt that if our species lasts long enough, so too will all other religions. I can’t wait as I personally believe the world will then be a better place as we will then know we have to stand on our own two feet... as somebody above has already mentioned.
Dave,
I presume the Preston Brook postperson got no ’Christmas box’ from your house, then?
I presume the Preston Brook postperson got no ’Christmas box’ from your house, then?
Fair point Dave, but what you are effectively saying is that Man has believed in a higher being since the beginning of our existence on this planet and that an end to this will leave us standing on our own two feet... How exactly will this happen? And what will it change?
As for your enjoyment of the midwinter festival, wasn't this a pagan ritual whereby the deity at the time was the sun and the stars?
I have no problem with other people’s beliefs but to think that you can so easily dismiss them based on your own limited opinion is hugely arrogant to say the least.
I really want to get back to the footy now so can we leave the theology etc for another time and place?
As for your enjoyment of the midwinter festival, wasn't this a pagan ritual whereby the deity at the time was the sun and the stars?
I have no problem with other people’s beliefs but to think that you can so easily dismiss them based on your own limited opinion is hugely arrogant to say the least.
I really want to get back to the footy now so can we leave the theology etc for another time and place?
C’mon folks, enough is enough. I’m all for people voicing their personal opinions and having a healthy discussion but haven’t we had enough comments here to realise that this is a subject on which we’ll never come to a consensus. And so what? Can’t people just agree to disagree whether you are Christian, Muslim, Atheist, etc. This will always be the case in religion.
At least we can all agree to support the same team irrespective of our moral principles. I’m sure we all cheered together when Pienaar smashed the ball home. So let’s get back to the football talk. And an early Happy New Years wish to all... if that doesn’t offend anyone.
Dave, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding pagan rituals, middle-age history was never my chosen subject. However, the birth of Jesus has been proved beyond any question (even Dawkins concedes this). The man did exisit and therefore cannot be dennonced as a myth. The question of whether he performed miracles or was the Son of God is a different matter.
Anyway, I have said my final thoughts on this matter. I much prefer the comments of Tony Williams. I will raise my glass to all Evertonians whatever their beliefs and wish everybody a happy and prosperous New Year.
Anyway, I have said my final thoughts on this matter. I much prefer the comments of Tony Williams. I will raise my glass to all Evertonians whatever their beliefs and wish everybody a happy and prosperous New Year.
Too true, Mark.
Pienaar has been the turning point in our season, his inventiveness in midfield has got us playing the ball on the deck again and although we are misfiring up front the actual amount of chances created has vastly increased.
My biggest concern playerwise is Cahill, he has had a mare this season and his lack of goals is hugely evident. Will he go the whole season like this or is he reliant on us playing to one style only?
Pienaar has been the turning point in our season, his inventiveness in midfield has got us playing the ball on the deck again and although we are misfiring up front the actual amount of chances created has vastly increased.
My biggest concern playerwise is Cahill, he has had a mare this season and his lack of goals is hugely evident. Will he go the whole season like this or is he reliant on us playing to one style only?
Shaun
Good post - agree with you.
Jesus was not regarded as the son of God until the Council of Nicae in AD 325 which was held by Constantine in his dying days and in an effort to unite his warring Kingdom. The Council decreed he was the Son of God and also decided which testaments would form the Bible. There were at least 20 more testaments which were discounted - most of which (including Mary Magdalene’s) offered conflcting views of Jesus’s (the man not the God) life.
Give me Mickey Mouse any time — at least that fairy tale never caused any wars!!!
Good post - agree with you.
Jesus was not regarded as the son of God until the Council of Nicae in AD 325 which was held by Constantine in his dying days and in an effort to unite his warring Kingdom. The Council decreed he was the Son of God and also decided which testaments would form the Bible. There were at least 20 more testaments which were discounted - most of which (including Mary Magdalene’s) offered conflcting views of Jesus’s (the man not the God) life.
Give me Mickey Mouse any time — at least that fairy tale never caused any wars!!!
Those of you who so knowingly accuse various religions of causing wars and other untold miseries, please account for Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and any Chinese/Communist government, amongst others, all of whom/which gleefully promote(d) godlessness and were/are fervent atheists, as many here proudly identify with. No clever semantics please, you have condemned the beliefs of others wholesale, defend your own, as practiced by the above named. I obviously do not accuse anybody here of supporting any of the above, they were simply taking their beliefs to the only conclusion — "survival of the fittest". Why are they wrong, if at all?
Brian
What a ridiculous post. No-one said all wars were caused by religion but a lot certainly were and still are!!
And just because some non-believers were tyrants it doesn’t follow that all non-believers are!!!
Personally, I have no problem if people want to believe in a higher being even tho it is unproven but I do object strongly when people shove it in my face and take it to extremes, a al Muslim fanatics today who will not rest until a global caliphate has been establised and we are all subject to sharia law because, trust me, that is what some believers want. Obey what they say their God wants otherwise you will be executed — like Christianity in the 14th-16th century.
Personally I want choice — I was born a freeman and want to die, a long time from now, as a freeman but if left to religous bigots, extremists and zealots then that would be increasingly unlikely.
That is the danger of religion if taken to extremes.
What a ridiculous post. No-one said all wars were caused by religion but a lot certainly were and still are!!
And just because some non-believers were tyrants it doesn’t follow that all non-believers are!!!
Personally, I have no problem if people want to believe in a higher being even tho it is unproven but I do object strongly when people shove it in my face and take it to extremes, a al Muslim fanatics today who will not rest until a global caliphate has been establised and we are all subject to sharia law because, trust me, that is what some believers want. Obey what they say their God wants otherwise you will be executed — like Christianity in the 14th-16th century.
Personally I want choice — I was born a freeman and want to die, a long time from now, as a freeman but if left to religous bigots, extremists and zealots then that would be increasingly unlikely.
That is the danger of religion if taken to extremes.
Mike Hanlon - 100% mate.
Some of the rest of you need to get a life. What the fella believes in is his own business, and if it helps him be a better Everton player - it’s all good...
Some of the rest of you need to get a life. What the fella believes in is his own business, and if it helps him be a better Everton player - it’s all good...
Mike Byrne
If you really want to tell the majority of the world's population they are barking up the wrong tree because you know better, can you fuck off and do it somewhere else.
This is s site for Evertonians fella.
If you really want to tell the majority of the world's population they are barking up the wrong tree because you know better, can you fuck off and do it somewhere else.
This is s site for Evertonians fella.
Editor's Note: Dave Wilson, this is the post I deleted and I did it because it was totally unacceptable. The discussion did not need you telling people to fuck off. That crossed a line for me.
The mistake I made was not subsequently banning you; however, I have rectified that now.
Dave Wilson
Read the post properly prick
What I am saying to a large (I doubt the majority esp in UK) part of the population is that there is no scientificf evidence whatsoever of a higher being or of a life after death so, unless you can tell me oitherwise, I suggest it is you who fucks off.
I object very strongly to people thrusting there beliefs and taking actions based on religion which maim and kill others when there is no more proof that a God (any of countless Gods) exists than there is proof that Donald Duck is real
I agree totally this is a site for Evertonians so lets keep myths and fairy tales out of it - wasnt that my point or didnt you grasp that?
Read the post properly prick
What I am saying to a large (I doubt the majority esp in UK) part of the population is that there is no scientificf evidence whatsoever of a higher being or of a life after death so, unless you can tell me oitherwise, I suggest it is you who fucks off.
I object very strongly to people thrusting there beliefs and taking actions based on religion which maim and kill others when there is no more proof that a God (any of countless Gods) exists than there is proof that Donald Duck is real
I agree totally this is a site for Evertonians so lets keep myths and fairy tales out of it - wasnt that my point or didnt you grasp that?
Donald Duck is real, I met him in Disney Land in 1992.
Mike Byrne your at it again.
You disrespect peoples faith by calling them myths and fairy tales, who the fuck are you to tell anyone what to believe ?
Show me the post where anyone one "thrust their beliefs" ? you cant because they didnt
Your the one who keeps returning to the thread and talking about killing and maiming, the guy took his shirt off you clown, thats all
Your a fanatical fucken idiot.
MK
why is my post deleted, when I was saying what everyone else was thinking, nobody cares about this guys extreme views
You disrespect peoples faith by calling them myths and fairy tales, who the fuck are you to tell anyone what to believe ?
Show me the post where anyone one "thrust their beliefs" ? you cant because they didnt
Your the one who keeps returning to the thread and talking about killing and maiming, the guy took his shirt off you clown, thats all
Your a fanatical fucken idiot.
MK
why is my post deleted, when I was saying what everyone else was thinking, nobody cares about this guys extreme views
Dave Wilson
Where did i tell anyone what to believe - I have said dont thrust it down my throat because I don’t want to hear unsubstantiated stories./myths/fairy-tales that comfort many but have also caused untold misery across the globe
It doesn’t need to be in posts althought there are plenty in this thread alone.
I am not the fanatic - how can you be a fanatic over something you don’t believe in?
If people want to have Gods then fine as long as they keep it to themselves and don’t try to persuade others to follow their ’one-true belief’ cos that way only ends in strife. Much of which we are seeing now.
So maybe you could answer one or two of my points specifically what shred of evidence is there of a higher being? Evidence not belief as there is a big difference.
And btw it is not views that are extreme - just bringing a few logical observations to the the thread.
BTW again the guy didnt just take his shirt off - he took his shirt off to reveal a message - the rallying cry of Muslims Allah-el akbar - God is Great
Where did i tell anyone what to believe - I have said dont thrust it down my throat because I don’t want to hear unsubstantiated stories./myths/fairy-tales that comfort many but have also caused untold misery across the globe
It doesn’t need to be in posts althought there are plenty in this thread alone.
I am not the fanatic - how can you be a fanatic over something you don’t believe in?
If people want to have Gods then fine as long as they keep it to themselves and don’t try to persuade others to follow their ’one-true belief’ cos that way only ends in strife. Much of which we are seeing now.
So maybe you could answer one or two of my points specifically what shred of evidence is there of a higher being? Evidence not belief as there is a big difference.
And btw it is not views that are extreme - just bringing a few logical observations to the the thread.
BTW again the guy didnt just take his shirt off - he took his shirt off to reveal a message - the rallying cry of Muslims Allah-el akbar - God is Great
"ffs, grow up, stand on your own two feet and accept there is no God"
Mike Byrne 9.39
How the fuck can you ask where you tell anyone what to believe.
Like I say, stick to Everton lad, coz your making a complete prat of yourself going to such lengths to " not be interested"
BTW I dont have any evidence, but I know people who are religious and although they dont always to the right thing, unlike me they at least try, how can that be a bad thing ?
Mike Byrne 9.39
How the fuck can you ask where you tell anyone what to believe.
Like I say, stick to Everton lad, coz your making a complete prat of yourself going to such lengths to " not be interested"
BTW I dont have any evidence, but I know people who are religious and although they dont always to the right thing, unlike me they at least try, how can that be a bad thing ?
Dave Wilson
Sorry you are right I missed that one.
But with regard to your last point dont confuse believing with living a good life - I don’t believe but I do live a better life and am more ’christian’ than many believers. Doing the right thing isnt confined to believers
Sorry you are right I missed that one.
But with regard to your last point dont confuse believing with living a good life - I don’t believe but I do live a better life and am more ’christian’ than many believers. Doing the right thing isnt confined to believers
Amen to that Mike
Mike Byrne, please quote where I said ALL wars are caused by religion? I merely requested that those who have expressed very anti-religious sentiments in this thread should defend the actions of atheist systems. The danger of atheism when taken to extremes is not tolerance, equality and peace on earth, it is Stalin, Hitler, etc. You have not and cannot answer this.
By eck lads - you can see why many an old boozer had a "No Politics or Religion" sign up behind the bar. Along with ’don’t shoot the piano player’, there was some wisdom in that.*
Something of a soi-disant intellectual snob (moi?) I have quite enjoyed the scrap. And as an eternal optimist I know that come Saturday we’ll all be back to the one and only true religion at the school of science (sit down Dave W — we know what you’re saying and are not in any way disrespecting you by questioning what you take to be true — and it took 40 years of teaching for me to learn how to say that).
Oh dear - I’ve started so I’ll finish. Who said Hitler was an atheist? Sorry — Roman Catholic, from start to finish, and therefore won’t be burning in hell. No action against that church in ’Greater Germany’ (Slavs didn’t count — he rated them as more or less Jewish) and tacet support from Rome for his uber-pogrom.
But back to football...
oh sorry, forgot to mention something I’m sure the open minded might already have tried. And I have just managed it for the first time in many attempts over many decades. Read Robert Graves - "The White Goddess". Talk about ’if you know yer history’.... Christmas, Robin Hood, the number of the beast and the holy unspeakable name of god will never be the same again.
And I don’t mean Alex Young, but I was duty bound to get back to what we should be talking about.
* Actually the best sign I have seen behind a bar was in a Manchester Irish pub - "Don’t ask for credit as a smack in the gob often offends".
The best, however, must be the one reported to me by a kopite mate in the long hot summer of 1976. "We must apologise to customers that during the current drought the beer will be a little stronger than usual".
Kopite mate? Was that easier in 1976 than it is now?
Something of a soi-disant intellectual snob (moi?) I have quite enjoyed the scrap. And as an eternal optimist I know that come Saturday we’ll all be back to the one and only true religion at the school of science (sit down Dave W — we know what you’re saying and are not in any way disrespecting you by questioning what you take to be true — and it took 40 years of teaching for me to learn how to say that).
Oh dear - I’ve started so I’ll finish. Who said Hitler was an atheist? Sorry — Roman Catholic, from start to finish, and therefore won’t be burning in hell. No action against that church in ’Greater Germany’ (Slavs didn’t count — he rated them as more or less Jewish) and tacet support from Rome for his uber-pogrom.
But back to football...
oh sorry, forgot to mention something I’m sure the open minded might already have tried. And I have just managed it for the first time in many attempts over many decades. Read Robert Graves - "The White Goddess". Talk about ’if you know yer history’.... Christmas, Robin Hood, the number of the beast and the holy unspeakable name of god will never be the same again.
And I don’t mean Alex Young, but I was duty bound to get back to what we should be talking about.
* Actually the best sign I have seen behind a bar was in a Manchester Irish pub - "Don’t ask for credit as a smack in the gob often offends".
The best, however, must be the one reported to me by a kopite mate in the long hot summer of 1976. "We must apologise to customers that during the current drought the beer will be a little stronger than usual".
Kopite mate? Was that easier in 1976 than it is now?
Brian Hill
I never said you said all wars were caused by religion but you did say "Those of you who so knowingly accuse various religions of causing wars and other untold miseries, please account for Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot," and I was merely saying that no-one said all wars were caused by religion - there are of course numerous reasons but religion has had more than it’s fair share
Keep up son
I never said you said all wars were caused by religion but you did say "Those of you who so knowingly accuse various religions of causing wars and other untold miseries, please account for Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot," and I was merely saying that no-one said all wars were caused by religion - there are of course numerous reasons but religion has had more than it’s fair share
Keep up son
Keith Glazzard, in reference to your inference that the great Billy Graham has passed on, he hasn’t yet. He is simply retired from evangelism after suffering from Parkinson’s for the last 15 years, but is still going at the grand age of 91.
Quite an interesting discussion on these boards and one that was spoilt somewhat by Dave and Mike’s petty argument. As far as I am concerned as someone with a strong Christian background, if Stevie P wants to celebrate and dedicate his faith every time he scores then I’m all for it, even if he does it five times a season and has to sit out a game thanks to the pointless and unnecessary rule created by those passionless twerps in Soho.
Quite an interesting discussion on these boards and one that was spoilt somewhat by Dave and Mike’s petty argument. As far as I am concerned as someone with a strong Christian background, if Stevie P wants to celebrate and dedicate his faith every time he scores then I’m all for it, even if he does it five times a season and has to sit out a game thanks to the pointless and unnecessary rule created by those passionless twerps in Soho.
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1 Posted 29/12/2009 at 14:50:43
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