The players play, the coaches coach. You can’t pin the poor performance on Moyes. There are plenty of fair criticisms of Moyes but to say that first half was because of anything other than the 11 men on the field is a mistake.

I don’t know if we can win anything with Moyes and the fact is, no one knows. He has very limited finances and he has never had a chance to prove what he can do with a bigger budget.

I am not a huge Moyes fan but if you’re going to criticize him, talk about his negativity, talk about the lack of ambition in the transfer market. There are plenty of things to talk about that are, at least partially, his fault.

Moyes isn’t the problem. Everton are finishing about where they should finish and are losing to teams they should lose to and are beating teams they should beat.

As for the Big 4, Everton stack up well against Arsenal & Liverpool, but lack the one-touch passing and all-out assault on goal of a Man U, and lack the height and quality of Chelsea. No shame there. With the budget he has, Everton are actually doing quite well.

As for the Birmingham match... they played Everton football better than Everton... they won 90% of the 50/50 balls. If I had a criticism of the gaffer, it’d be that there were too many long balls in the first half, that Neville was incredibly lazy and that Donovan should not have been in the box so much with Saha and Cahill.

Was it because Neville refused to give service, or Donovan was getting shut down by Ridgewell, or did Moyes see something in the films that told him it was easier to break down Birmingham by lofting longball after longball to three relatively short guys in the box? It was surreal that he allowed it to go on for so long.

He didn’t. He played Felliani up front towards the end. Credit to Felliani for creating the two chances all by himself (left foot shot after jinking pass 2 men; tight angle right foot grasscutter).

Our transfer budget and wage structure is the glass ceiling.

No Moyes is not our glass ceiling. Our glass ceiling is our resources.

Unlikely to change any time soon.

Things at Everton over the last couple of seasons are as good as it is going to get unless we get a lot more resources or become staggeringly lucky. In 84 we suddenly got lucky as half a dozen young players suddenly blossomed at the same time into world beaters. We will need something similar to step up a level. As it is, we will need two or three to come through to replace our aging strike-force and players like Arteta and Pienaar when they eventually leave or fade with age.

Enjoy this relative success whilst it lasts. It is probably not even sustainable at the current level.

And this relative success is largely down to Moyes.

Amazed at how different we where between halves and games! Give Birmingham their due, they played well and held their lead stoically.

This country has had 4 of the best 6 teams in Europe for the last few years, the money that has been spent has been shocking they have stripped other sides of their best players and driven the cost of even mediocre players sky high. We simply can’t compete with them as they search for a winning formula. Anywhere else in Europe (Spain apart), we would be challenging for cups and titles.

Now we have teams like City and Spurs trying to get in on the act while we can only bring in loanees when we get rid of other ones and only buy after we have sold. I can’t see it changing unless our finances do. As for Moyes's 8 years in charge and won nothing yet, I wouldn’t get rid of him; yes, he’s got his faults but, Wenger apart, there’s no one I’d rather have.

You can blame resources but I don’t see how that argument stacks up when the likes of Birmingham, Stoke, Derby, Reading, Southampton and Portsmouth are all still in the FA Cup. These teams all have far less resources than us. Had we lost to top opposition, I’d understand the argument.

We have put up a poor show in first legs and first halfs at home against Villarreal, away at Fiorentina, and now home to Birmingham. This to me seems like our ’great’ manager has got it wrong. After last year's cup run and after our win against City, why did Moyes not get them fired up and competing for those 50/50s?

I also think it’s indicative of how Moyes has lowered a lot of people's expectations when some of you don’t appear to be surprised or even that bothered that we lost to Birmingham. Credit to Birmingham? Fuck that, we were crap and we’ve missed a massive opportunity this year, like so many other years where Moyes has been in charge.

The players took a lot of credit for excellent performances against Arsenal and City and so they should take the criticism for a very poor first-half performance especially, against Birmingham.

Moyes kept pretty much everything the same as those games, I’ll make an assumption (as I don’t know for sure) that he didn’t do anything radically different in training leading up to the game so what was the difference? I think the blame can rest on the shoulders of the players this time.

4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3… it all doesn’t make a difference if the players are lethargic and don’t have the intensity and effort required at the level they are at especially against a hard working side like Birmingham. We got had off – plain and simple.

Birmingham are decent enough and maybe it was a case of after the Lord Mayor's Show and/or the players got complacent but we were pretty inept. Too many players were anonymous and with players off-form or whatever, too many long balls happened playing to the strengths of Birmingham’s (I have to say… pretty good) big, strong centre halves.

Moyes can only do so much – managers still need their players to take some self-responsibility and get themselves motivated and up for games. It just didn’t happen for us on Saturday. In the same way I don’t think managers should take all the credit when teams are doing well, I don’t think they should take all the blame when things don’t go well.

I don’t think we are that far off winning something under David Moyes though. Let's not forget, we are in a time where it is even more difficult to win a trophy. There’s not many about and there’s now more teams desperate to justify their outlay by winning some sort of silverware. Even the Carling Cup is starting to get more credibility about it thus making it a tougher competition to win.

I disagree with Alan’s assertion that David Moyes lacks the killer instinct, I don’t think he suffers fools gladly. I think he’s shown that with people he’s moved on and let go. On the pitch, I think it’s his players who need to show more of a killer instinct.

I don’t think David Moyes has taken us even close to where he can take us. I’d love to see him with even a half-decent amount of cash to spend over the next couple of summers then maybe we’d see for sure whether this glass ceiling actually exists.

Whilst your predictable submission will chime with many disgruntled Evertonians frequenting the site, two points require revisiting:

"Should have," needs replacing with the words "could have." We played a team unbeaten in 14, and higher up in the table than us. What right did we have to harbour expectation more than hope ?

Secondly,why the patronising quotation marks surrounding the word "achieving"?Either 5th was an achievment, or it wasn’t; given the overwhelming chasm between us & the Back Page 5, augmented by the reality of the usual suspects stockpiling years of Champions League money, I would suggest that it was.

Certainly our history demands better, but this brand of Bluenose cynicism, and periodical foot-stamping over Moyes is becoming so tiresome. Disappointed we lost — leave it at that.

FFS get over it, we lost, move on. I’m getting sick of overreaction — we beat Citteh and we’re the new Barcelona; we get beat by Brum and we’ve gone as far as we can go. It was a bad 1st half — something that has plaqued us this season, and I’m as disappointed as everyone on the site, but that’s life.

I concur with your premise, Alan.

Despite the feel-good of easily beating Abu Dhabi Wanderers and deserving to beat Arsenal, and the return of players giving our team a rather smart look about it, I remain unconvinced that Moyes hasn’t already delivered everything that he will do.

It’s a considered view, as opposed to a kneejerk reaction or a sign of perpetual dissatisfaction. Moyes deserves lots of credit on several fronts. And indeed it is he who has assembled this squad which is by a country mile our best for over two decades.

But I keep feeling that we never quite do ourselves justice. Is it a case of Moyes getting much more out of "the whole" of these players than would normally be the case? Or is it a case of Moyes actually suppressing what they are really capable of? On the evidence of previous seasons, and this season up to Xmas, I am minded to think it’s the latter.

Is it possible for a club like Everton (i.e. 2nd tier these days, rather than top drawer) to combine hard graft and dedication with enough flair to both excite the fans and keep the opposition busy? Birmingham work assiduously hard, but are not what I’d call easy on the eye. Whereas Everton do seem to have players who can both do it and work for it.

I have no doubt that, if we had Gus Hiddink, then we’d be better on all fronts. So... question is, which manager has both the strength of character and the footballing principles to take Everton to the next level? Moyes has the former but, I suggest, not the latter. Two brilliant young bucks, Paolo Susa and Roberto di Matteo seem to have the latter but not the former...

In a fantasy world where we had a choice, I’d give Moyes this season. If it happened that we made say top 6, but as importantly we really started to deliver good football, and if we went along way or even won the Europa, then I’d stick with him. But if this season fizzles out amidst an array of weak tactics, resistance to change a game, and we end up leaving the Europa early and make no further headway in the league, then I’d let him go.

My current preference? Paolo Sousa as Head Coach, with Joe Royle as General Manager.

It’s the England syndrome: World-beaters one week, reactionary calls to sack the manager the next. Also, let me be the first to state that Huntelaar couldn’t hit a pig in an entry — I’m kidding of course, I think!

If you actually read most of my posts, I’m not knee-jerking. I’m fairly consistent with my criticism of Moyes. For the majority of his time in charge we’ve been poor to watch. Each season we’ve hit a purple patch where we’ve looked good but it’s only ever that. For the majority of the time we’ve been shit.

The reason I ’patronisingly’ use quotes around ’acheiving’ is because 5th to me is not an acheivement yet to a lot of others, Moyes seems to deserve a knighthood for those finishes. I’d sooner see us finish 17th but get some silverware.

I make the point that I am grateful for the stability Moyes has brought us but there is a very strong case now against Moyes as an actual winner. Apart from the games against Chelsea, it’s not resources that have lost us those fixtures against the teams I’ve mentioned, we’ve bottled it every time.

David Hallwood — get over it? Why bother taking any interest in Everton at all then?

Well, Harry, seems we are not yet at Liverpool’s standard; losing the Charity Shield at home was a bitter blow"

"FFS, Sir John, get over it we lost move on"
...
..

"Well, Walter, not only out the Cup but a terrible display getting tonked by an ordinary Middlesborough side"

"Dissapointed we lost, Bill - leave it at that"

Yeah, right

A quick question if I may, the posters who say that Moyes is somehow smothering the potential world beaters (doh) we have in the team. Can you justify that assertion with some points? How is it Moyes fault if one week Bilyaletdinov is skipping around people as if they are not there and the next week he is looking at his toes until subbed at half time? Do people actually think the manager tells him to pack in trying to beat men or something?

Yes, the manaer picks the team on past performances and what he sees in training that week, yet if the player decides he would rather count the hairs on his legs than put in a shift, what is he to do apart from sub him?

Arsenal and Citteh everyone played well; against Brum there were a couple of performers but the rest were gash in the first half and that’s where we lost it. Sub made at half time, better performance and the sub scored, yet he is the reason why we are not winning cups and the league, nothing to do with the average players in the side, the only ones we can afford these days.

Although it may be hard to admit/recognise the fact, Birmingham City are one of the form teams in the Premier League at the moment. I think it’s something like 13 or 14 games for them without defeat. Whilst Burnley have got all the headlines — the 1-0 win over Man Utd being a case in point. Indeed if you went by the publicity, you could be forgiven for believing that Burnley were higher than Birmingham in the league.

As to our performance, after setting off at 7am, yes I was rather disappointed with the result. However, I have been an Evertonian for a long time now (since 1964) and that’s how the game goes.

I have to say that whilst I would not put myself in any "anti-Moyes" camp — I find myself agreeing with George Orr’s comments in his "Blue Blood" fanzine. As George puts it: " ....this Everton team, when they put their minds to it, can play football and can score goals. Only Moyes on the touchline can change the tactics......." I find David Moyes’s tactics at times are predictable and I feel that some of our creative players find themselves stifled.

At half-time it was clear that we needed a change on our left side — both Baines and Bily had not really played well. Yet given our lack of cover for left back, it was clear that Baines would stay on. Yes, I know he played a big part in our goal, but his lack of attention to his defensive duties I believe also cost us. The first role of a full back is to defend.

Now before you accuse me of anti-Baines bias — not so. But I do think he sometimes has a rush of blood to the head and leaves gaps at the back. Valente was a good attacking full back, but he was also good defensively and knew when to go forward in support of the attack/midfield and when to stay back.

Until Baines reaches a similar level he will not get any further international regognition. A pity, as I feel he has the potentila to become an international player. At the moment however, he is in something of a comfort zone, as we really don’t have cover for that position. And that’s down to Mr Moyes: last summer, as in the summer of 2008, there was hardly anything happening in terms of adding to our squad. This was at a time when with key players out due to long term injury we desperately needed to bring in new players to strengthen the squad.

Billy is a good player... but he looked absolutely lost on Saturday, as if he wasn’t sure what his role was. Do you think he would struggle if Wenger was his manager? It’s time Mr Moyes lived up to his reputation — instead of living off it. Prove me wrong, David... but I think you are short on ideas and your tactics are limited.

Could another manager get more from these players? — I have to say I am reluctantly coming to the conclusion that the answer is yes.

Is Moyes our glass ceiling?


Have any of you anti-Moyes guys noticed that when the top four or even Spurs, Villa and the Shite need players they go out and buy them?

Thats right we don’t - we have to fart-arse about with loan signings and free transfers. I’m afraid thats as good as it gets for us until someone comes in a buys Kenwright out.
Some of our fans are absolutely delusional always ignoring the fact that we’re skint and have to ring every penny out of our tranfers to progress.

I make no bones about it, I support Moyes in what he’s trying to achieve at Everton. Plainly we can all see that we’ve barely got a tranfer budget and each year the squad is getting progressively better. BUT its gonna be slow and sometimes a bit painful - see the Brum result, to crack the top four and stay there without financial backing.

There is a real danger of total overreaction after 1 game here.

I have watched EFC for over 50 years and have seen some of the best and worst managers EFC have ever had so feel qualified to say:

David Moyes is a competent, dignified manager and a good ambassador for EFC.

No other Prem manager has performed consistently better than him on the budget he has had to operate on and frequently having to sell players to bring others in.

All this talk about Gus Hiddink is utter shite. Do any of you honestly believe that Hiddink would consider operating under Black Bill’s terms.

The "Glass ceiling" is this EFC board who have consistently underperformed every other top 10 Premier League club board for years while enjoying Moyes's relative success on the pitch which has generated more place money than this board deserve.

Why don't we get more posts with "Kenwright out" instead of "Moyes out"? I continue to be amazed by how fickle some are.

Colin, it’s not, for me anyway, being about ’ant-Moyes’ guys. I accept and praise his achievements in coping with 20 years of misdirection and lack of business acumen at Board level... I like the man.

But, just doing a what if... given we are skint and have to make do, could you see another manager/coach taking the present squad of players and achieving more with them? In terms of increased skill and/or performance, individually or as a team?

If you can, who might it be? — again purely hypothetically You might not come up with any names — fair enough. I’m just wondering whether, regardless of real-world limitations, the current squad’s performances could be improved under someone else?

Personally, I’ d love to see Moyes have the success he deserves.

Michael – hardly anything was happening with additions to the squad because it appears David Moyes needed to sell one of his best players before he could do any substantial business. If we knew players were needed, do you not think David Moyes knew the same and more?? Or you think he likes struggling through with a small squad not having many options?

Also, it’s a little bit harsh, the bit about Bily struggling under Moyes & Wenger. He needs time no matter who the manager. Wenger is class we all know that but he’s not a magician.

Thierry Henry struggled at first when he signed for Wenger. Wenger played him as a winger first (a genius move done by him – square pegs in round holes when done by Moyes no doubt) then gradually he became the striker we all know as he settled down, found his position in the team and then his class shone through.

The same goes for Van Persie….he wasn’t the regular main man for a good while before eventually he came to the fore. Wenger is one of the best around but just because he’s done well by other players doesn’t mean he works for everyone. He couldn’t do much with Pascal Cygan could he.

I would rather wait and see on Bily until next season when he’s had a break and then a proper pre-season with us. He looks like he’s got talent but I think it’s way too early and too harsh to say David Moyes is somehow stifling him.

I don’t think I’m being fickle here. Fickle would be to declare us world beaters for beating City then declare us relegation candidates for losing to Birmingham. This isn’t necessarily a 'Moyes Out' rant, it’s just me stating we’re not going to win anything with him.

Okay, we lost to Birmingham, an in-form team... but weren’t we supposed to be in form? They’d not lost in 14, we’d not lost in 10. We were at home. How come the Birmingham team were so much more up for it than us?

What annoys me is it’s always these crucial games where the team seems to stop playing. Why is that? It’s not even a one-off. The cup is special and is a real chance for us to finally get our hands on some silverware. Why couldn’t we keep our intensity going? I’d have sooner lost a less significant game on Wednesday night and beaten Birmingham when it mattered.

I have some doubt as to what David Moyes could achieve with loads of money. I think he has a 'safety first' attitude that money won’t change. Can anyone seriously imagine him as manager of United, Chelsea or Arsenal? Lack of funds has been a safety net for him.

I agree with you Alan, I can’t believe how easy some are just accepting the cup exit as one of things.

I think it has got to the point with some fans, that even if we were relegated under Moyes, people will still defend him to the hilt.

Cheers, Brian. I was ignoring this as a pretty much ’so far so boring, heard it all before a million times’ thread and then finally someone goes and says something ridiculous!

Why would anyone defend Moyes if we got relegated? We’d all be fuming. The fact that some people defend Moyes is because he has a good record as our manager. It's not made up out of nowhere, it's based on what has happened at our club in the time since he took over.

In fact, the opposite seems to be true, it doesn’t matter what Moyes achieves, some of you won’t give him any credit. We could come fifth two seasons running, bettered only by the ’Sky 4’ for whom the playing field isn’t level, and reach a cup final only to be beaten by the Billionaire’s plaything, Champions League contenders Chelsea, we could qualify for European competition almost every season, thus raising the profile of our club around the the world, attracting better, more skilful players, and some of you would still slag him off.

Tell you what, Mike, when you hear some fans say that Moyes can be forgiven, if we don’t do well this season, what makes you think it would be any different if we ever got relegated under him?

They would probalby roll out the ’ no money ’ excuse because, in their eyes, the man can do no wrong.

Kenny & Mike. Firstly I would not dismiss/belittle in any way what Everton have achieved with David Moyes as manager. I would love Everton to win trophies under his management. As I said I don’t believe I am in either an "anti-Moyes" camp or a "pro-Moyes" camp. The last couple of seasons I have started to have doubts — basically because of the way we seem to have waited until the last minute to bring in players.

Now I know that there will be those who mention the lack of money compared to some clubs and, especially this season, the injuries. Well... two things in answer to that:

1) Loan players are not always poor players — Steven Pienaar has proved that. He didn’t have the best of times at Dortmund, but he initailly came to Everton on loan.

2) We knew before we went into this season we would be without Arteta, Anichebe, Jags & Yak for quite a while — why then let two other players go in Castillo and Jacobsen? Both hardly got too many opportunities last season.

Compare Wenger’s attitude when Citeh went after Toure. They accepted the money early on and brought in a replacement. David Moyes delayed the inevitable; yes, we got more money... but he then complained we didn’t have a lot of time to get a replacement. You can’t have it both ways, the downside of trying to drag things out and get more money for the player is that you will have less time to get a replacement.

I want David Moyes to prove me wrong, I really do. But, when I see us playing 4-5-1 virtually every match, I have my doubts. The 1st match of the season back in 2002-03 — his first full season as manager — we played 4-3-3 at home to Spurs. What has happened to that endeavour ? Do we really have to be so cautious ALL the time? We went to Chelsea and Arsenal and look what happened when we played in a positive manner at those places!!

Alan Clarke says...
You can blame resources but I don’t see how that argument stacks up when the likes of Birmingham, Stoke, Derby, Reading, Southampton and Portsmouth are all still in the FA Cup.

Yes Alan, and Wenger is the glass ceiling at Arsenal, I mean, Stoke FFS. And don’t get me started on Sir Alex. What a Waste of Space! 3rd round vs third division team. It’s not on... ship out sharpish. What else did you say?

...I also think it’s indicative of how Moyes has lowered a lot of people’s expectations when some of you don’t appear to be surprised or even that bothered that we lost to Birmingham.

Aye, that’s right. We were pulling up trees before Moyes arrived. Down in London, I can remember how teams used to crap themselves at the thought of playing us.

Reality check, soft lad. I lived in London in the 90s, teenagers thought we were as big as Leicester City. A bloody embarrassment except for about 18 months under Royle. Moyes has me looking up for almost the first time since the 80s.

Some people are bloody unbelievable. When were you born?

Fuck off will yer with yer glass ceiling. There is no-one deliberately trying to do down the team's achievements so the reference is bogus.

The only thing keeping us from breaking into the top four and consistently winning competitions is a class ceiling and a brass ceiling. We’ve neither the class players in nor the brass to buy the class.

Moyes is working wonders with the squad available to him. Those who argue otherwise are just crass.

All pretty pointless!

How many times have I got to say it. Moyes is at best a 50% manager and we are having yet another in a long line of 50% season... 04-05 split down the Gravesen middle... poor starts; good middles fade away; last quarters... all the permutations thereof.

UNTIL (fat chance) we actually see Moyes with some sort of budget, it is all mere connjecture.

And it isn’t, as many keep on saying, A GLASS CEILING... It is a sticky floor that stops us and others jumping up to this mythical next level. Paper this sticky floor with money and then watch.

Moyes; Mr 50% (and not very lucky by the by neither).

So we have to accept that on the good days we are good and on the bad days we stink... This is the inconsistancy of averageness, of midtableness. We are back where we where in the pre Catterick-Moores era.

In most of our living memory, we have only had 3.9 decent sides 63 70 85 and 87(.9 IMHO). The rest have been all over the place (datum) like mad woman's shit.

Derek et al, maybe there’s also the DM one trick pony to consider; he rarely changes from the '4-5-1, hope not to concede and nick a goal' mentality and his substitutions usually follow the same pattern; dying minutes of a game when we are losing with little time to do anything... and very late to react to players not pulling their weight. I often wonder, even given money, would he change either tactic too?

Mickey,
Speaking as a crass... no, fuck off will yer ...are you saying we have no players who have class on a par with the Sky 4 squads? Or have we not enough such players to compete?

Quality players exist outside the Back Page 5?
Agreed?

Do you think players can’t be coached into quality and teams into effectiveness? In which case, how did Clough et al do it?

Gavin, that's bollocks about DM being a one-trick pony, the 4-5-1 is favoured by most of the top teams now-a-days including Man U and Chelsea. I don’t remeber José Mourinho getting this much stick when he was using the same system to win them the title.

And if you look the formations our team changes throughout a game depending on the opposition. Even Martin Jol pointed this out when he referred to Everton’s game plan a few seasons ago. Likewise, are you trying to say that no other team who are a goal behind with a few minutes to go won’t go for it and throw everyone forward — you're talking shite!

Alan Clarke is spot on. He is not talking about the league here because everyone knows we haven't got the budget to compete over a season. But in the cups we are going out to sides that don't have more money than us. It all started when we lost away to Shrewsbury and, if you remember, Rooney played in that game. And we have consistently lost to poorer sides than us with less money.

I have said many times the pro-Moyes people such as Mickey Dee above are only concerned with finishing in a respectable position in the league and have no aspirations to win anything. To suggest that it would be good to win a trophy just brings out childish abuse from them as if that will get rid of the argument.

It is obvious that Moyes cannot handle the big games even though the opposition are weaker than us. There is also nothing to suggest if he had pots of money that things would be any different. I would be happy if he left tomorrow then at least we might get someone in who is a winner by nature.

Roberto, Man U and Arsenal are competing in the champions league and for the title. You could say they have bigger priorities. What are ours? Finishing 8th? Fuck me.

If you’re happy with the fact that we are now no longer relegation battlers, then what a shit outlook. Hooray, we’ve finished 10th, get the bunting out! Will there be an open top bus for that?

The fact it is now 15 years since we won anything is a fucking embarrassment — and that is the reason people see us as no bigger than Leicester City.

Calling me soft lad? You’re the one with no ambition and no balls.

Michael – fair comment and cheers for the clarity but…..

With regards to the loan signings – I think it is a great market at times but I it also helps that we have a manager who is quite astute in that area. As Jo has proved it’s not always easy though. I wouldn’t want to rely on the loan market to try and replace quality such as Arteta and Jagielka. It’s cold hard cash we need and it’s not up to Moyes to provide that.

As for Castillo and Jacobsen….Moyes obviously didn’t rate them highly enough. I can’t see what Castillo could have offered to us this season apart from being an extra body and even then I’m not sure how much he’d have played. He didn’t look up to much IMO and if we want more flowing, passing football then he definitely wouldn’t be the man for us…he struggled to pass it 5 yards. Jacobsen was decent enough but I’d argue that we have a far far better option in Coleman now…maybe Moyes knew this?

It was easier for Wenger in the summer because City seemed to meet his value of Toure almost immediately but for whatever reason they decided to play hardball with us and in the end lost. If they’d have come in with a £24 million offer straight away, Moyes would probably have snapped their hand off. They didn’t so he wanted to either keep Lescott or wait for the valuation to get to where it did in the end. This took time yes but he didn’t take long in getting Distin to replace him. That money also enabled us to get Johnny Heitinga in which at the moment looks another good piece of business.

The 4-5-1 thing has been said before but he found a system which works for him and the players we have. It took us to some of our better seasons and league finishes of recent times so surely it can’t be all bad? It was this system which got the draw at Chelsea, should have beaten Arsenal and did beat Man City.

As I’ve said, his system seemed to work against City which was acknowledged as a great performance and yet didn’t against Birmingham. Did Moyes suddenly change everything for the Birmingham game from what he did before the City game? I don’t think so, so it’s the players who should carry the can for Birmingham IMO. It’s not always about tactics and formations….sometimes you just need your players to play.

Going out in the cup to sides who have less money than us?? Man U must have had a right big fucking drama & inquest when we knocked them out last year then. I mean they do have slightly bigger finances than us right?? Anyone can lose to anyone in the cups on any given day….poor argument.

Brian I don’t think it's that he ’can do no wrong’, rather that many of us don’t think that what he does wrong outweighs the wider context of all the things he does right.

A separate point is everybody who bangs on about 4-5-1. If you want to criticise Moyes for a ’negative mentality’ as Gavin mentioned above then so be it, but to complain about ’4-5-1’ in and of itself is ridiculous. For a start, we rarely play ’4-5-1’ anyway, when Cahill is in the team he plays up front, particularly noticeably so at home, and is always far closer to the striker than the other midfielders.

The second point has already been made, which is that pretty much everyone plays 4-5-1, including three of the ’Sky 4’ (Chelsea play a narrow 4-4-2 which has people moaning about a lack of width).

Most managers feel that one out-and-out striker supported by runners from deep or wide is the best formation in modern football. The difference is in how much of the ball you get and how much attacking you do, ie mentality and ability, not in what numbers you write the formation down as.

’Moyes cannot handle the big games...’. Who did we beat in last year's cup run? Liverpool, Man U, Villa!! We narrowly lost to Chelsea. This is the FA Cup, romance and all that. It’s a one-off game. On any given day, another reasonably organised can beat any another, but class will out, and better teams over a 38-game season will finish above less quality teams. But you only get one chance in the cup, fail to turn up and you’re out.

Phil, Everton have some tremendous players and 4 or 5 of them would hold their own in the Sky 4 sides but it’s the players around them, in the main good journeymen pros. Moyes has proved consistently that he can blend these players to achieve that dubious accolade, ’best of the rest’.

Because we only have 4-5 top class players, we rely on these to be available for selection and on form, in order for us to play decent football and create enough chances to win games. I believe Moyes has done an excellent job with the cards he's been dealt.

To suggest he can’t handle big games, or he has taken us as far he can (well that may be true given the resources available to him) is crass.

And please, don’t go dragging up Forest’s achievements from the seventies and throwing that in Moyes’s face, the game has moved on light years from those heady days. You are comparing apples and bananas.

By the way....just checked, the year Forest won one of their European Cups (1979), Chelsea finished bottom of the old Division One. How times change.

Kenny, I’d accept your argument if we were challenging for the title and the Champions League but we’re not. At best we might catch 7th this season.

Last year, Man U got knocked out by us but reached the final of the Champions League and won the Premier League title. You could say they got their priorities right.

What are Moyes’s priorities? We’ve lost to a side with less resources than us, assembled at far less cost, when we should have been prioritising the cup competition. The argument stands up far more than yours.

Alan… I know what you’re saying about the Champions League and Premier League etc but I was just trying to make the point that in every cup competition there’s bigger teams who lose to smaller teams with less resources. Cardiff and Tranmere are two recent examples of smaller teams who did well in a cup competitions, Reading beating Liverpool (who were prioritising it) another example. It happens and it can’t all be down to the teams they beat prioritising other competitions surely?

Why would David Moyes not see the FA Cup as a priority? I genuinely don’t get it. If we are only going to catch 7th in the league at best – even more reason he would want to do well in the cups, no? He seems as ambitious and desperate as us to win a trophy. It’s difficult for me to believe he said “right lads take it easy first half and spew this meaningless game” (paraphrasing of course!) I think the players just didn’t put a proper shift in first half – simple as.

Okay, Mickey Dee, that’s twice now you’ve described other people’s reasonably held opinions as "crass". If it could be construed as a helpful contribution to the discussion, that would be okay... but it can’t. Desist please.

We should prioritize the FA Cup and the League Cup, Yeah but just how much, forget the CL, The Prem is not only our bread and butter it’s our Jam as well. We are like share croppers, we are a one crop econony @ £500k per league position.

The Uniteds of this world can afford both the CL and EPL. The Cups are, on the one hand, a nice little day out for the Fans and the WAGs if you get to the final and the other rounds are good for giving the benchwarmers a game.

Moyes, I’m sure, has to look at his mission statement... 10th and above and everything is OK... But don’t get too carried away.

It’s up to the players to decide, if they can or indeed care, that Hey lads...THIS IS THE FA FUCKIN' CUP. But I fear it has lost it’s glory, if it ever had any for some.

Mikey, long before you appeared on this forum, plenty of people had made the observation that David Moyes does not handle big games well. His record over 8 years in games against big opposition or in crucial stages of competitions speaks for itself. The analysis is well-documented on these pages, and for you to come on and call it "crass" is... grossly stupid and dull.

Slight miss reading of terms and meanings.

You go to Starbucks and you don’t get small medium and (the opposite of small) large.

In some you get small, regular...and the opposite of regular is??.
Moyes doesn’t win big games, the must win games (hate the term) which are in fact MUST NOT LOSE games.

The FA Cup and all sudden death games are must not lose.

Moyes for what ever reason has, in the must not lose games, a poor record. Now these must not lose game are either Vs ’big’ teams or occasions or ’small’ teams with big consequences... eg, you are out.

The conclusion drawn by some that when push comes to shove Moyeses record = BOTTLER! aka doesn’t handle ’big’ games well