The Mail Bag
After 10 games
Comments (75)
Noticed a lot of postings saying judge Moyes and the boys after 10 games...
How many points would be acceptable at this point?
Go on put your neck on the block.... or are you all talk?
Charles King, Posted 15/09/2010 at 17:30:15
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Personally, I'm gutted by the poor start to the season. Can't understand why our preparation is so (predictably under Moyes) piss-poor, especially given our injury-free status at the start.
However, after 10 games, I'd be happy with 15/16 points. As this would average out to 58-60 over the season which is usually a top-6 and a Europa Cup place. Which is as much as I believe we can aspire too.
However, after 10 games, I'd be happy with 15/16 points. As this would average out to 58-60 over the season which is usually a top-6 and a Europa Cup place. Which is as much as I believe we can aspire too.
p.s. Although actually think we'll be on about 10/11 points...
Jeremy about thinking about how the points average out.
Alan's 24 would average out to 91 pts in the season, more than last year's champions I think.
16 is about right for us, as its around the 60 points mark, but looking at the specific fixtures (from before the start of the season), and accepting a 'middle case scenario' (I know I've just invented that but I hope you know what I mean) I'd say 15 is a pretty decent total.
The key is in winning and losing rather than drawing everything. Of four 'drawable games', (Birmingham, Fulham, Tottenham away, Liverpool home) if we won three and lost one we'd be five points better off than drawing all four, and two points better off even if we win two and lose two.
Alan's 24 would average out to 91 pts in the season, more than last year's champions I think.
16 is about right for us, as its around the 60 points mark, but looking at the specific fixtures (from before the start of the season), and accepting a 'middle case scenario' (I know I've just invented that but I hope you know what I mean) I'd say 15 is a pretty decent total.
The key is in winning and losing rather than drawing everything. Of four 'drawable games', (Birmingham, Fulham, Tottenham away, Liverpool home) if we won three and lost one we'd be five points better off than drawing all four, and two points better off even if we win two and lose two.
Mike,
I don't disagree. But given our start, I can't see us picking up more than 9 points from our next 6 games (which in itself is decent "form" - uefa cup top 6 form as it happens, as 6 from 12 averages out as 57 points....). Still leaves us short overall on 11 though.
I don't disagree. But given our start, I can't see us picking up more than 9 points from our next 6 games (which in itself is decent "form" - uefa cup top 6 form as it happens, as 6 from 12 averages out as 57 points....). Still leaves us short overall on 11 though.
4 stella's = incorrect maths. But the ethos is the same...
30 would be acceptable but we have failed. Can't believe it.
Jeremy about thinking about how the points average out.
Alan's 24 would average out to 91 pts in the season, more than last year's champions I think.
well said Mike.
We have got over 60 points in each of the past three seasons. That says to me that Moyes gets results. Who else with or budget or say even 10% more can say that?
Everything else is noise at this period of the season. And Frankly Moyes deserves al ot more than give him another six games. Beyond juvenile.
The football we are playing is actually quite good, but is lacking upfront. Had we money, we'd have a new striker. Moyes was given about £1.5 million - he spent it on forwards.
Alan's 24 would average out to 91 pts in the season, more than last year's champions I think.
well said Mike.
We have got over 60 points in each of the past three seasons. That says to me that Moyes gets results. Who else with or budget or say even 10% more can say that?
Everything else is noise at this period of the season. And Frankly Moyes deserves al ot more than give him another six games. Beyond juvenile.
The football we are playing is actually quite good, but is lacking upfront. Had we money, we'd have a new striker. Moyes was given about £1.5 million - he spent it on forwards.
We'll end up with 14 pts after 10 games. Win all remaining except draws against Birmingham, Liverpool and Spurs.
Though the next 10 games could bring 20pts !
Final number will be about 65 , about 4 or 5th place at best
Though the next 10 games could bring 20pts !
Final number will be about 65 , about 4 or 5th place at best
I think we will batter the barcodes. After our last two / three performances, I believe we are just getting the bit between our teeth.
Shite at home is a cert, they look like the worst Liverpool team I can remember, we will beat them big style!
We will beat Stoke, and draw with Spurs, and also draw and win with either Fulham or Birmingham.
So... 16 will be are points tally after 10 games ? what was it last season?
Shite at home is a cert, they look like the worst Liverpool team I can remember, we will beat them big style!
We will beat Stoke, and draw with Spurs, and also draw and win with either Fulham or Birmingham.
So... 16 will be are points tally after 10 games ? what was it last season?
God I'm glad I checked the postings above, now I don't need to bother watching Everton at all this season!
i don't really care. I have had enough of the displays this season. Taxi for Moyes.
I think the positive pre-season and our high expectations have burdened the players.
We were hoping to kick off from our late flourish last season, but don't forgot, the close season allowed other clubs to regroup, buy players, and reassess our strengths and weaknesses. We are guilty of simply replaying the same programme thinking we could steam roll over shit teams and thus complacency crept in.
We think we can simply pass the ball into the net without putting in tackles, sweat blood and hard work, which was always our bread and butter under Moyes's dreaded 4-5-1.
We were hoping to kick off from our late flourish last season, but don't forgot, the close season allowed other clubs to regroup, buy players, and reassess our strengths and weaknesses. We are guilty of simply replaying the same programme thinking we could steam roll over shit teams and thus complacency crept in.
We think we can simply pass the ball into the net without putting in tackles, sweat blood and hard work, which was always our bread and butter under Moyes's dreaded 4-5-1.
Perhaps Chelsea will run away with the league but the next 7 or so teams are going to be dropping a lot of points in matches between themselves, let alone to the likes of Fulham (ManU), Wolves, Blackburn (us).
So our start is not a disaster, if the points start building up from here. It will be interesting to see the points total at the end of season for 3rd and 4th which could be quite low. As said by many, a much more even standard between 2nd and 8th. Could be the year when draws aren't much use.
19/20 if we are to have a chance at getting a Euro spot.
Not a disaster??
A Pt per game is relegation form and we are on a half a point per game. To get back to the average 1.5pts pergame and bearing in mind we will lose some, that comes in at top4 form.
Just what pre-season preparation did Birmingham do??
Or
Is it a case of all Bill's and Moyes's 'good' points (for a given value of good) got us to our post-Walter 'improved' position (again for a given value of improved). But, all their bad points (again yada yada etc) prevent us from moving on.
All we have is the chance of, at best, of another one of Moyeses 50% seasons. And that all the Moyesistas will yet again kid themselves that 8th to 5th is the new 1st.
What if, Heaven's forfend, we for once actually under acheive and punch below our weight? The words "chickens home to roost" are in the back of my mind.
A Pt per game is relegation form and we are on a half a point per game. To get back to the average 1.5pts pergame and bearing in mind we will lose some, that comes in at top4 form.
Just what pre-season preparation did Birmingham do??
Or
Is it a case of all Bill's and Moyes's 'good' points (for a given value of good) got us to our post-Walter 'improved' position (again for a given value of improved). But, all their bad points (again yada yada etc) prevent us from moving on.
All we have is the chance of, at best, of another one of Moyeses 50% seasons. And that all the Moyesistas will yet again kid themselves that 8th to 5th is the new 1st.
What if, Heaven's forfend, we for once actually under acheive and punch below our weight? The words "chickens home to roost" are in the back of my mind.
Realistically, I expect us to pick up a couple of wins and a draw from the next six games. By Christmas, Davey will have sorted out his best team and will go on another great run to complete a top six finish. What Toffeewebbers have always lacked is faith and patience ? we are blessed to be Evertonians at this exciting time!
20 Points.
We have won 6 games on the spin before with a far inferior side so why not do it again, gain 18 points from the next 6 making a total of 20 after 10 games??
If we're safe from relegation by Christmas, I'll be happy. That's been my philosophy for about 15 years now and nothing has changed. The pre-season optimism on here made me laugh but I silently watched it unfold.
Realistically, a top eight finish would be fantastic, top ten would be good, anything below abject failure. Needless to say, there's absolutely no chance we're challenging for the Champions League and only a devout Everton fan would see us challenging for Europe. We simply do not have the attacking options that other sides have.
It's going to be another dull, mediocre and ultimately predictable season. To be perfectly honest, it's not really worth the time and effort following the Premier League at the moment as the heart and soul of English football has been ripped out in the past decade.
Realistically, a top eight finish would be fantastic, top ten would be good, anything below abject failure. Needless to say, there's absolutely no chance we're challenging for the Champions League and only a devout Everton fan would see us challenging for Europe. We simply do not have the attacking options that other sides have.
It's going to be another dull, mediocre and ultimately predictable season. To be perfectly honest, it's not really worth the time and effort following the Premier League at the moment as the heart and soul of English football has been ripped out in the past decade.
Derek, Nobody punches below or above their weight. You finish a full season exactly where you deserve to. I just think at the end of this season the points will be more evenly spread out than in previous years when there were huge differences behind the top four. The teams we have dropped points to are just as likely, over the full season, to take points off Villa, City, Shite, Spurs etc, as has already happened. So if that continues to happen we may end up in a decent position.
Of course, if you have targeted 1st or 2nd as realistic then yes, we are lagging far behind already. But 3rd, 4th, 5th in my opinion are realistic and can still be achieved based on the above, and despite the start.
But, I have to agree with many on here, to me the biggest drawback to achieving this is Moyes. Either he effectively forfeits points at the start of the season by underpreparing the team, or his over cautious approach, and chronic lack of tactical savvy loses points along the way.
One problem is that he , and his boss are seemingly happy with 'almost'. Whilst I believe we are a lo-o-ong way from winning the title, CL placings are possible.
Lee @ 18. Go and pick up your prozac prescription fella.
Richard, you've got to be on a wind-up mate, if Moyes is going to take until Christmas to sort out his best team then it's a fucking sad state of affairs. As for lacking patience, I think we've all been very patient the last 8½ years, waitng for a trophy,waiting to move on to the next step, this time next year we'll be..............
Lee, absolute spot on assessment of our expectations this season.
Lee, absolute spot on assessment of our expectations this season.
@20: James,
It's just realism. Thanks to the way the EPL is basically run by money the expectations and ultimately the realisations of the clubs in the league can be telegraphed way in advance. Even Liverpools fall from the top four was easily predicted based on spending from Tottenham and Manchester City - the only question was who out of the two would dethrone them in the top four.
This years, Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Manchester City and Liverpool will have a monopoly on the top six, with a possibility of Aston Villa breaking in but, again, spending restrictions have knocked them back. Everton follow on in eighth due to overachieving constantly, but we could easily fall as low as twelfth.
The only question marks surround the teams between eighth and, say, fifteenth. Two of the three relegation places are certs to belong to those that came up, the third relegation slot could be the only real "surprise" this year.
All ultimately predictable. Say what you want for the American draft system in their sports but at least there's a degree of unpredictability to it. We won't challenge for honours until either a wage cap or something is introduced (which won't happen), or the money is drained out of the game and we revert to the way things were pre-1992.
It's just realism. Thanks to the way the EPL is basically run by money the expectations and ultimately the realisations of the clubs in the league can be telegraphed way in advance. Even Liverpools fall from the top four was easily predicted based on spending from Tottenham and Manchester City - the only question was who out of the two would dethrone them in the top four.
This years, Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Manchester City and Liverpool will have a monopoly on the top six, with a possibility of Aston Villa breaking in but, again, spending restrictions have knocked them back. Everton follow on in eighth due to overachieving constantly, but we could easily fall as low as twelfth.
The only question marks surround the teams between eighth and, say, fifteenth. Two of the three relegation places are certs to belong to those that came up, the third relegation slot could be the only real "surprise" this year.
All ultimately predictable. Say what you want for the American draft system in their sports but at least there's a degree of unpredictability to it. We won't challenge for honours until either a wage cap or something is introduced (which won't happen), or the money is drained out of the game and we revert to the way things were pre-1992.
I'm with Lee on this. I expect our slightly above average team to finish anywhere between 6-12. It's not down to "negative tactics", as these "tactics" ie 4-5-1 are employed by about 90% of teams worldwide, moving to a 4-3-3 with their forward motion.
It has everything to do with having a squad of players that are not good enough to win silverware and titles. It's a simple concept and once the "Nil Satis" posters realise this, they will become less angry when we fail to sweep away all those teams before us.
It has everything to do with having a squad of players that are not good enough to win silverware and titles. It's a simple concept and once the "Nil Satis" posters realise this, they will become less angry when we fail to sweep away all those teams before us.
Lee.
"A top 8 finish would be fantastic"
No, a top 4 would be fantastic, top 6 would be good, 7th expected, 8th a disappointment, anything less than that a disaster.
"Only a devout Everton fan would see us challenging for Europe"
I think there will be a lot of fans from other clubs that will see Everton as European Challengers.
Why are you so dismissive of us finishing below Villa and Liverpool? We are both of their equal.
"A top 8 finish would be fantastic"
No, a top 4 would be fantastic, top 6 would be good, 7th expected, 8th a disappointment, anything less than that a disaster.
"Only a devout Everton fan would see us challenging for Europe"
I think there will be a lot of fans from other clubs that will see Everton as European Challengers.
Why are you so dismissive of us finishing below Villa and Liverpool? We are both of their equal.
If I was predicting, I would say:
Newcastle - home win - it's coming
Fulham - away win - momentum building
Brum - away draw - frustrated and stifled
Shite - honestly cannot predict
Spurs - away win - Spurs will have just played away in CL
Stoke - home win - finding from now
Optimistic, yes, but our performances in the last 2 games deserve optimism. I'd be happy with 11 points from the next 6 games, delighted with 13+ but disappointed with anything less than 9 points.
We took 12 points from our opening 10 games last term, and 15 from our fist 14.
Newcastle - home win - it's coming
Fulham - away win - momentum building
Brum - away draw - frustrated and stifled
Shite - honestly cannot predict
Spurs - away win - Spurs will have just played away in CL
Stoke - home win - finding from now
Optimistic, yes, but our performances in the last 2 games deserve optimism. I'd be happy with 11 points from the next 6 games, delighted with 13+ but disappointed with anything less than 9 points.
We took 12 points from our opening 10 games last term, and 15 from our fist 14.
Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal have teams of true quality that will always frequent the top four. Tottenham spent £8m in "spare change" on van der Vaart which shows their spending power recently. Man City have a limitless pot of money. Liverpool have a scattering of very good players that make up for the mediocre rest which will assure them top six. Aston Villa have lost Milner and haven't spent meaning they are on a pretty similar footing to Everton at the moment, but have spent a great deal more on their squad.
So that's seven teams that could very easily finish above Everton without any surprise ? indeed, it'd be a surprise if we finish above any of them in the very fact we'd be overachieving once more. So how is eighth a "disappointment" exactly, given we're a club owned by a relative pauper who still run in the black and have a spending record which, at best, breaks even?
I'm starting to think Evertonians are becoming as deluded as the famed topless Newcastle fans! Top six wouldn't be "good", it'd have me dancing on the rooftops being frank.
So that's seven teams that could very easily finish above Everton without any surprise ? indeed, it'd be a surprise if we finish above any of them in the very fact we'd be overachieving once more. So how is eighth a "disappointment" exactly, given we're a club owned by a relative pauper who still run in the black and have a spending record which, at best, breaks even?
I'm starting to think Evertonians are becoming as deluded as the famed topless Newcastle fans! Top six wouldn't be "good", it'd have me dancing on the rooftops being frank.
And as for being the "equal of Liverpool", we're not and haven't been for a good 20 or so years now; barring one miraculous season which was mostly due to a Liverpool side distracted by Europe.
I understand why people want to be optimistic, but I personally prefer to call a spade a spade. Our best chance of success as a club remains a domestic cup, and with Moyes as manager that doesn't seem realistic as he is a motivator, not a tactician, and as such he can't produce managerial consistency needed in cup competition (again, barring one run to the FA Cup final which was, again, miraculous).
I understand why people want to be optimistic, but I personally prefer to call a spade a spade. Our best chance of success as a club remains a domestic cup, and with Moyes as manager that doesn't seem realistic as he is a motivator, not a tactician, and as such he can't produce managerial consistency needed in cup competition (again, barring one run to the FA Cup final which was, again, miraculous).
Oh Lee., behave. Again, "barring one run to the FA Cup Final,which was again miraculous......." Yet you still say our best chacnce of success is a domestic cup.
"Aston Villa are better than Everton..." Are they really? In their case its not how much theyve spent but how they've spent it and to a large part very badly.
Liverpool are very average now and with their squad as it is. It should be a genuine goal to finish above them.
"Aston Villa are better than Everton..." Are they really? In their case its not how much theyve spent but how they've spent it and to a large part very badly.
Liverpool are very average now and with their squad as it is. It should be a genuine goal to finish above them.
James, I agree with what Lee has stated. Villa have finished in 6th place for the last 3 years, so yes they probably are a better team than us. Certainly going on last seasons' and in fact this season's results, they are.
Tony 2 of tyhose years we finished 5th. Take the first two months of last season out of the mix as there are certainly some mitigating cicumstances and take a look at form from end of October last season. Re this season I think the game at Villa Park says it all. One of the most freakish results I can remember.
I cannot believe people think a team that get beat 6-0 by Newcastle are better than we are.
I cannot believe people think a team that get beat 6-0 by Newcastle are better than we are.
I'll judge the season after 38 games, judging after 10 is pointless. And trying to pre-judge the season 6 games away from even that is just daft.
Next 6 games points realistically
Newcastle...3
Fulham.........1
Birmingham...1
Liverpool......1
Tottenham....0
Stoke............1
Total of 7, giving us 9 points from 10 games.... pretty poor start if this how it pans out.
Newcastle...3
Fulham.........1
Birmingham...1
Liverpool......1
Tottenham....0
Stoke............1
Total of 7, giving us 9 points from 10 games.... pretty poor start if this how it pans out.
Ok we scored three on Saturday but it is hard to see us scoring goals at the moment, lots of passing in the middle with some nice link-ups around the box but the penetration is lacking where it matters.
James#32
Let's wait till we've played em and then we can judge :-)
Let's wait till we've played em and then we can judge :-)
James, I wish I could take the first two months out of the equation, I was amongst the many posters saying that the injuries were the reason and they were.
Unfortunately no matter how much we wish we can't wish things away, so for last season and this season based on league position, they are better than us, in fact at this moment so are 18 other teams.
I said in another post that the papers didn't post the league until a good number of games in and I still wish that was the case.
I want to believe that we arre a better team than Aston Villa but at the moment, results wise, we aren't.
Unfortunately no matter how much we wish we can't wish things away, so for last season and this season based on league position, they are better than us, in fact at this moment so are 18 other teams.
I said in another post that the papers didn't post the league until a good number of games in and I still wish that was the case.
I want to believe that we arre a better team than Aston Villa but at the moment, results wise, we aren't.
Personally, I have not judged Dithering Davey over 10 games, I have judged him on his time at the club.
Now initially he had success and I am pleased with where he had taken the club, ie 4th. However, since then we have slipped out of the top 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 now we are competing with the likes of Fulham and Bolton, while Villa, Spurs and City have taken our place.
Please do not come back harping on about the club's finance, please. Go check out how much we get from Sky and sponsorship etc before you do, and then ask yourself why no multi-billionaire has even sniffed at us.
The fact of the matter is we are, and have been since we finished 4th, standing still. if we continue to do so, more and more clubs will eclipse us. So I judge that Dithering Davey has reached his ceiling with Everton; therfore, he and his extended family (Neville, Osman, Hibbert, Distin) should pack up and ship out! Let's breathe some fresh air into the club,
ps: Kenwright and Co can do one too! Made up to have a true blue at the helm, but not one who hasn't a pot to piss in!
Matt Boden
Personally I have not judged Dithering Davey over 10 games, I have judged him on his time at the club. Now initially he had success and I am pleased with where he had taken the club, ie 4th. However, since then, we have slipped out of the top 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 now we are competing with the likes of Fulham and Bolton, while Villa, Spurs and City have taken our place.
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Bollox.
Since then we have slipped??? Good God!
City have finsihed above us once. Spurs three times under Moyes. After an awful start last year, we got more points than moneybags City from Xmas on, and beat them twice, comfortably.
Spurs hung on against West Brom for a draw on Saturday. Had that been Everton, you miserable gets would be on here saying how crap we are, and that Moyes is holding the club back (utterly risible). But it was Spurs, and somehow you all rate Spurs as the business. Says it all!
We dominated Utd for extended periods ? admittedly without being as clinical or efficient as them except the end ? but it was Utd FFS. We outplayed Villa on their patch, but didn't score. Four games gone, and Toffeewebbers have gone from: we are brill, best team since the 80s, we could even win the League to... we are shite, and Moyes is an amateur.
Get a grip!
Personally I have not judged Dithering Davey over 10 games, I have judged him on his time at the club. Now initially he had success and I am pleased with where he had taken the club, ie 4th. However, since then, we have slipped out of the top 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 now we are competing with the likes of Fulham and Bolton, while Villa, Spurs and City have taken our place.
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Bollox.
Since then we have slipped??? Good God!
City have finsihed above us once. Spurs three times under Moyes. After an awful start last year, we got more points than moneybags City from Xmas on, and beat them twice, comfortably.
Spurs hung on against West Brom for a draw on Saturday. Had that been Everton, you miserable gets would be on here saying how crap we are, and that Moyes is holding the club back (utterly risible). But it was Spurs, and somehow you all rate Spurs as the business. Says it all!
We dominated Utd for extended periods ? admittedly without being as clinical or efficient as them except the end ? but it was Utd FFS. We outplayed Villa on their patch, but didn't score. Four games gone, and Toffeewebbers have gone from: we are brill, best team since the 80s, we could even win the League to... we are shite, and Moyes is an amateur.
Get a grip!
What's pointless about it Roberto? It's just an estimation of what we might achieve over the next six games.
You commented in post no 8 that everything else is noise at the moment, welll it ain't mate it's cold hard facts that we haven't won a game this season regardless of anything else.
Moyes has had a lot more than 6 games he's had 8½ years.
You commented in post no 8 that everything else is noise at the moment, welll it ain't mate it's cold hard facts that we haven't won a game this season regardless of anything else.
Moyes has had a lot more than 6 games he's had 8½ years.
Roberto those are a serious pair of blue tinted specs you have on.
Can people stop using a third of a seasons form to justify how were much better than teams who finished above us. Every season is played over 38 games and you usually finish where you deserve to. Last season we had a good run, we also has a few shit ones too, and if we go off them we could easily talk of us being relegation candidates.
We were the 8th best team last year, and so far this we are second worst. It doesnt matter how well you play, West Brom played teams off the park regularly and still went down. Obviously that shouldn't happen to us but if you can't score and can't defend you have problems and were definitely in that category at the moment.
To match my aspirations I expected us to have 15-18 points after 10 games at the start of the season. The next six games are all winnable and if we do then we have achieved what I considered we should.
Richard Dodd,
Blessed to finish top 6? You are a wanker of the highest order, and your acceptance of such mediocrity is an embarrassment to me, other Evertonians and all the great players that have worn our shirt.
We were the 8th best team last year, and so far this we are second worst. It doesnt matter how well you play, West Brom played teams off the park regularly and still went down. Obviously that shouldn't happen to us but if you can't score and can't defend you have problems and were definitely in that category at the moment.
To match my aspirations I expected us to have 15-18 points after 10 games at the start of the season. The next six games are all winnable and if we do then we have achieved what I considered we should.
Richard Dodd,
Blessed to finish top 6? You are a wanker of the highest order, and your acceptance of such mediocrity is an embarrassment to me, other Evertonians and all the great players that have worn our shirt.
Roberto @ 38.
Well said lad.
Well said lad.
Love the optimism about the Fulham away game. We've got such a good record there, haven't we?
Mike we had a shocking record against Manchester United and Chelsea until last year but beat them both in a short period of time.
Have you anything constructive to add or just puerile sarcasm?
Have you anything constructive to add or just puerile sarcasm?
Lee Kidd : "... we're a club owned by a relative pauper who still run in the black ..." - eh? You do realise this is an Everton site you're on?
Anthony Hughes:
"What's pointless about it Roberto? It's just an estimation of what we might achieve over the next six games."
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What's pointless about it? it's an estimation of what we might get over six games?
Tell you what, here's another estimation of what we might get. 16 points from 6 games, giving us 18 from ten games and we are fourth. That would be brilliant and make us CL possibilities... hmm Want any more might-bes?
how about: 12 points from six, giving us 14 from ten and maybe put us 8th? That would be ok for a springboard and within touching distance of top 4, but not amazing.....Any idea why the post was pointless yet?
....
You commented in post no 8 that everything else is noise at the moment, welll it ain't mate it's cold hard facts that we haven't won a game this season regardless of anything else.
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Yeah, but guessing that we get one point from Stoke, 3 from Newcastle, and zero from Spurs is not cold hard facts - it's guesswork based on little or no science.
And here is another cold hard fact. The season is four games old. The season we came fourth; I am sure you could pick out a four-game run in which we got just two points. It means very little.
Everton in the Premier League era: our best points totals are as follows: 65 points (under Moyes 2009); 63 points (under Moyes 2008); 61 points (three times: two under Moyes in 2005 and 2010; and one under Joe Royle 1996). THE the rest of the time we struggled to get 50 points, something we failed to do just once uncder Moyes - his second season.
COLD HARD FACTS from around 700 games.
"What's pointless about it Roberto? It's just an estimation of what we might achieve over the next six games."
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What's pointless about it? it's an estimation of what we might get over six games?
Tell you what, here's another estimation of what we might get. 16 points from 6 games, giving us 18 from ten games and we are fourth. That would be brilliant and make us CL possibilities... hmm Want any more might-bes?
how about: 12 points from six, giving us 14 from ten and maybe put us 8th? That would be ok for a springboard and within touching distance of top 4, but not amazing.....Any idea why the post was pointless yet?
....
You commented in post no 8 that everything else is noise at the moment, welll it ain't mate it's cold hard facts that we haven't won a game this season regardless of anything else.
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Yeah, but guessing that we get one point from Stoke, 3 from Newcastle, and zero from Spurs is not cold hard facts - it's guesswork based on little or no science.
And here is another cold hard fact. The season is four games old. The season we came fourth; I am sure you could pick out a four-game run in which we got just two points. It means very little.
Everton in the Premier League era: our best points totals are as follows: 65 points (under Moyes 2009); 63 points (under Moyes 2008); 61 points (three times: two under Moyes in 2005 and 2010; and one under Joe Royle 1996). THE the rest of the time we struggled to get 50 points, something we failed to do just once uncder Moyes - his second season.
COLD HARD FACTS from around 700 games.
Robert Birquet and James Cadwaladr, have a look at the league able . Have a look at same time last year. See any similarities? These pathetic starts are, of course, nothing to do with David Moyes.
Can you really not see that something is wrong? Robert, here's a cold hard fact. In relation to his predecessors David Moyes has spent a fortune. In return we have had some utterly shite, fearful, negative, unimaginative dross. Among this there has been some decent, proper football. Why?
We are in the relegation zone after four games. It's not bad luck. It's not injuries. It's poor selection, coaching and management. Why are you not only prepared to accept this, in fact, not only accept it but be grateful for it?
Andy
Robert, here's a cold hard fact. In relation to his predecessors David Moyes has spent a fortune.
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Moyes has spent approx £3.5 million a year net on recruits.
I imagine the competition has spent quite a lot more than that. Certainly the ones we knock about with (at the end of each season), Spurs, Villa, Liverpool, and now City, spend quite a lot more than that.
Robert, here's a cold hard fact. In relation to his predecessors David Moyes has spent a fortune.
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Moyes has spent approx £3.5 million a year net on recruits.
I imagine the competition has spent quite a lot more than that. Certainly the ones we knock about with (at the end of each season), Spurs, Villa, Liverpool, and now City, spend quite a lot more than that.
I'm with Lee.
Whilst I'm humbled by the blind optimism that is James and Roberto, you only have to look at the fact that is the current league table (and the last few years too....), too establish that after 10 games we are not going to be sitting pretty in the top 6.
Whilst I'm humbled by the blind optimism that is James and Roberto, you only have to look at the fact that is the current league table (and the last few years too....), too establish that after 10 games we are not going to be sitting pretty in the top 6.
Robert, David Moyes's net spend is boosted by the sale of Rooney, a bit of business you or I could have done, and the sale of Lescott, which I am happy to admit was excellent work by David Moyes. However, he has spent big money on Yakubu, Bily, Fellaini, and Andy Johnston. I actually believe all of them were good signings.
He has built a decent squad... so why are we second bottom two years in a row? I am certain we will move up the table, but why should we, after what was not a particularly daunting opening set of fixtures, be where we are? Something is wrong.
Apologies, Roberto, for calling you Robert twice. I really should find my glasses.
@45 Dennis:
Of course I realise this is an Everton site - but that doesn't mean I can blindly ignore the fact we ARE ran by a pauper of a chairman in comparison with the vast majority of other owners in the Premier League! It's not like I'm lying is it?
Of course I realise this is an Everton site - but that doesn't mean I can blindly ignore the fact we ARE ran by a pauper of a chairman in comparison with the vast majority of other owners in the Premier League! It's not like I'm lying is it?
Lee, I think Dennis might have misinterpreted your "running in the black".
Or if not, I have no idea why it's a contradictory post... as clearly your statement was correct.
Or if not, I have no idea why it's a contradictory post... as clearly your statement was correct.
Bit late tonight, just been adding the finishing touches to British aerospace's time machine, had a quick go when no-one was looking and checked out ToffeeWeb at the end of October to see we beat Newcastle 4-1, Fulham 2-0, Birmingham 2-0, Liverpool 2-0, Spurs 3-2 and Stoke 3-1 but was dissapointed that most of the comments blamed Distin for Newcastle's goal, Hibbert for his two OGs at Spurs, and Tim Howard for diving the wrong way for Stoke's penalty.
Moyes given another 4 game trial by the TW bloggers to prove it's not a flash in the pan run of results...
Andy
He has built a decent squad... so why are we second bottom two years in a row? I am certain we will move up the table, but why should we, after what was not a particularly daunting opening set of fixtures, be where we are? Something is wrong.
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I agree that something is wrong; just not the hysterical crap that always comes with a couple of defeats. The defence is not yet right, andd Distin looks a particular concern. And I had reservations from the start over our attack. Sick, sicknote and never played at this level before. HHhmmm - hardly perfect. But
Moyes' record in my opinion is superb. End of the season position is a wee bit more important than start. We were going out of the Prem when he turned up. Gemmill and Unsworth in CM when Gravesen was sick. Jeez.
Our footie so far in four games has been a lot of possession, good passing but litle incision. I thought the major difference between us and Utd (and by the way it is Utd, they who reach into the backpocket and buy Rooney) was they have five passes and are in on goal, we 20 and still looking for a way thru. But is it not amazing the difference in opinions of non-Evertonians and TW posters of the Utd game?
MOTD; Everton deserved the draw, dominant at times, and never gave up. Others have said or written similar, but come on here, and it's doom and gloom and we were lucky. Were you not impressed by the lack of aerial bombardment when 2 goals down to Man U? Not happy that we tried to thread our way thru with short passing game, solid control of the ball - just bloody awful defending from Distin?
I thought we were decent, and yeah deserved a point - because we did that against Utd. Had it been West Brom, I'd be less charitable.
There are people on here calling me a blind optimist. And yet I have made no predictions. What level of debate is that?
Another moans at people mentioning the second half of last season (almost everyone on TW was doing that a month ago), but then insists that judging us on four games is fine. It's frankly banal.
He has built a decent squad... so why are we second bottom two years in a row? I am certain we will move up the table, but why should we, after what was not a particularly daunting opening set of fixtures, be where we are? Something is wrong.
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I agree that something is wrong; just not the hysterical crap that always comes with a couple of defeats. The defence is not yet right, andd Distin looks a particular concern. And I had reservations from the start over our attack. Sick, sicknote and never played at this level before. HHhmmm - hardly perfect. But
Moyes' record in my opinion is superb. End of the season position is a wee bit more important than start. We were going out of the Prem when he turned up. Gemmill and Unsworth in CM when Gravesen was sick. Jeez.
Our footie so far in four games has been a lot of possession, good passing but litle incision. I thought the major difference between us and Utd (and by the way it is Utd, they who reach into the backpocket and buy Rooney) was they have five passes and are in on goal, we 20 and still looking for a way thru. But is it not amazing the difference in opinions of non-Evertonians and TW posters of the Utd game?
MOTD; Everton deserved the draw, dominant at times, and never gave up. Others have said or written similar, but come on here, and it's doom and gloom and we were lucky. Were you not impressed by the lack of aerial bombardment when 2 goals down to Man U? Not happy that we tried to thread our way thru with short passing game, solid control of the ball - just bloody awful defending from Distin?
I thought we were decent, and yeah deserved a point - because we did that against Utd. Had it been West Brom, I'd be less charitable.
There are people on here calling me a blind optimist. And yet I have made no predictions. What level of debate is that?
Another moans at people mentioning the second half of last season (almost everyone on TW was doing that a month ago), but then insists that judging us on four games is fine. It's frankly banal.
Oh, and I always as a rule ignore the table until 12-13 games in. By one third way in season, the table takes shape with just one or two surprises to come the rest of the season.
Check out the last five seasons: I bet the tables after 13 games and 38 were pretty similar. Check out the current one and you'll probably see Everton, Liverpool, Spurs and City in the bottom half and Blackpool heading for the Champions League. Anyone taking that seriously is a muppet.
Check out the last five seasons: I bet the tables after 13 games and 38 were pretty similar. Check out the current one and you'll probably see Everton, Liverpool, Spurs and City in the bottom half and Blackpool heading for the Champions League. Anyone taking that seriously is a muppet.
700 games.......no fucking trophies,,,,superb record.
Anthony. look at the England squad, haven't won a trophy in over 40 years, does that mean every manager that has ever taken control of them is gash? I mean forty fecking years, surely longevity means you have to win doesn't it? Maybe not!
If it was 700 games when managing Chelski or ManUre with no trophies I would be pissed off, but when managing an average team, I don't expect him to win trophies, unless the run of the green somehow goes with us.
If it was 700 games when managing Chelski or ManUre with no trophies I would be pissed off, but when managing an average team, I don't expect him to win trophies, unless the run of the green somehow goes with us.
Take your point Tony, Moyes has a decent to good record but for some people to believe he has a superb record that stretches it too far.
Tony J Williams you my friend are a tool! You dont expect him to win trophies?! WTF!! Since we won the fa cup way back in 95, Leicester, Boro, villa spurs blackburn portsmouth, have all won trophies! what makes you think we cannot ? Fulham and boro even go to the final of the europa cup! we have had one final in that time, largely thanks to man utd reserve team, and only the we scraped through on pens! ( we are forever slating the red shite for their penalty final wins sayin they dont count) only to be battered in the final by chelsea. Any Blue will tell you that we deserve better than we are being served now! And Moyes and Kenwright are directly to blame!
Top site, usually good debates but sometimes it gets a bit ridiculous. Either we are fantastic and going to win the league or its a disaster which, lets face it, is exactly how all media presents things these days. When we are fantastic the Moyes 'apologists' are out in force and when we lose the Moyes 'haters' likewise. The league is 38 games and I bet you by game 12 Chelsea will have cooled off a bit at the other extreme of the table. Everyone should Read Ken Buckleys's match reports and get a dose of reality and realism about the game and where we stand.
Matt, it's not rocket science. Our team isn't good enough to win trophies ergo I don't expect him to win a trophy. QED. Even a "tool" must understand that logic.
A couple of posts from Lee Kidd have summed us up perfectly, there are some though who think we're title challengers and some sort of Arsenal clone, we're not. At best we are above average to good but i think what irks alot of us is the assumption that Moyes is some sort of genius beyond criticism. He isn't and shouldn't be, he's done a decent job with resources available but he isn't some sort of wonder manager who can't be replaced.
Exactly Anthony, he is not the Messiah he is a very naughty boy.
He does what he can with a half decent side but he is far from the finished article and won't be whilst he is with us.
He does what he can with a half decent side but he is far from the finished article and won't be whilst he is with us.
Anthony
700 games.......no fucking trophies,,,,superb record.
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700 games refers to Everton's fixtures in the League since 1992, not Moyes' time here.
In that time we have won one trophy. Under Moyes, we live in an era of £100K a week wages and an oligopoly controlling trophies. Chelsea have won league titles and Cups, because they pay players more money than the Club has - because of Abramovich.
Man Uts's wage bill would bankrupt Everton. Unlike pre-1992, managers are managing with their hands tied behind their backs. It's sa shite state of affairs. Who outside the elite of the Sky 4 has won a trophy inthe past ten years? Pompey (but it ruined them), and er, I guess someone has got League Cups, such as Spurs (Arsenal do not turn up for them).
But who else has won an FA Cup or League title - or even come close in the past decade? FFS, Get real. the lack of a trophy does not mean Moyes has not worked some wonders.
I would love a more level playing field, but I do not see irt coming quite yet.
700 games.......no fucking trophies,,,,superb record.
---------
700 games refers to Everton's fixtures in the League since 1992, not Moyes' time here.
In that time we have won one trophy. Under Moyes, we live in an era of £100K a week wages and an oligopoly controlling trophies. Chelsea have won league titles and Cups, because they pay players more money than the Club has - because of Abramovich.
Man Uts's wage bill would bankrupt Everton. Unlike pre-1992, managers are managing with their hands tied behind their backs. It's sa shite state of affairs. Who outside the elite of the Sky 4 has won a trophy inthe past ten years? Pompey (but it ruined them), and er, I guess someone has got League Cups, such as Spurs (Arsenal do not turn up for them).
But who else has won an FA Cup or League title - or even come close in the past decade? FFS, Get real. the lack of a trophy does not mean Moyes has not worked some wonders.
I would love a more level playing field, but I do not see irt coming quite yet.
Anthony Hughes at 59
Moyes has a decent to good record but for some people to believe he has a superb record that stretches it too far.
and again at 63
there are some though who think we're title challengers and some sort of Arsenal clone, we're not.
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I dont think anyone has said anytyhing of the sort during this thread.
Certainly not myself, my point is and always has been on this thread that we are European contenders, nothing more nothing less.
Based on the past 4 or 5 seasons and the squad we have I will b e disappointed if we dont finish 6th. And as for people being happy with 8th - 10th is a disgrace.
Funny how many of you posting doom and gloom comments on here were saying talking positively about a top 4 finish 6 weeks ago.
Talk about jeckyll and hyde.
Anyway why dont we just get rid of this negativity and be positive for a change. Is it really that ridiculous to suggest 6th is a possibility. If so you need to get some ambition.
Moyes has a decent to good record but for some people to believe he has a superb record that stretches it too far.
and again at 63
there are some though who think we're title challengers and some sort of Arsenal clone, we're not.
------------------------------------------------
I dont think anyone has said anytyhing of the sort during this thread.
Certainly not myself, my point is and always has been on this thread that we are European contenders, nothing more nothing less.
Based on the past 4 or 5 seasons and the squad we have I will b e disappointed if we dont finish 6th. And as for people being happy with 8th - 10th is a disgrace.
Funny how many of you posting doom and gloom comments on here were saying talking positively about a top 4 finish 6 weeks ago.
Talk about jeckyll and hyde.
Anyway why dont we just get rid of this negativity and be positive for a change. Is it really that ridiculous to suggest 6th is a possibility. If so you need to get some ambition.
James, if the height of your ambition is to finish 6th and that is viewed as some sort of success then it's a poor show. I want us to win the league every season but i also know that we aren't good enough, pointing this fact out isn't doom and gloom, its realism.
Tony, you are actually saying, as a fan, you do not expect to win trophies? Ask your ginger messiah what his expectations are at the start of each season, I'm pretty sure he expects us to win something! if he does not he should not be in a job! QED, ERGO, as you would be known in France, La Too-él!
Matt, what daftness is this? I don't think Moyes and this team are good enough to win trophies, therefore I don't expect them to win trophies, how have you extrapolated that I think Moyes is the messiah from this?
You really need to read the posts before responding.
You really need to read the posts before responding.
Just to confirm: "Our team isn't good enough to win trophies ergo I don't expect him to win a trophy." ?TJW
I don't like to sanction name-calling but I'd say "tool" is in this case quite apt. What in hell's name was all that malarkey down Wembley Way the other year?!? And we have supposedly improved yet further as a team since then.
Aren't you one of these Moyes acolytes who claims he's consistently improved us every season...??? So we can get to a Cup Final but we can't win a trophy? On his watch, so far, yes. But to project that forward is rather tool-like to my simple mind.
Surely to god we have to retain hope that it's possible, FFS? Otherwise, what is fucking the point?
I don't like to sanction name-calling but I'd say "tool" is in this case quite apt. What in hell's name was all that malarkey down Wembley Way the other year?!? And we have supposedly improved yet further as a team since then.
Aren't you one of these Moyes acolytes who claims he's consistently improved us every season...??? So we can get to a Cup Final but we can't win a trophy? On his watch, so far, yes. But to project that forward is rather tool-like to my simple mind.
Surely to god we have to retain hope that it's possible, FFS? Otherwise, what is fucking the point?
Did we win? Were we better than Chelski but were just unlucky? Or were we eventually battered by a vastly superior team?
"toolness" of the highest level = when posters are calling Moyes crap but then turn on the posters who are not castigating Moyes at every turn and say we are not good enough to win a trophy. I can't say it now without suffering the wrath of the wisened.
You really couldn't write this stuff...oh wait you just did.
Michael, have a read through your own website at my posts, never once said he was making us better every season at all. Last year/season I have stated many times, we are a slightly above average team and you simply don't win things with a slightly above average team (Unless you play Cardiff in the final of a cup)
Simple mind is correct. You cannot trot out all your "tactically inept" crap and then suggest a post that theoretically agrees with you be seen as something to pour scorn on. Very simple indeed.
It comes to something when a man who has constantly told us how crap our manager is to have a go at a poster deemed too optimistic for not having hope in the future. Irony much?
Do you foresee a trophy within the next 5 years, I certainly don't.
What's the point? It's called supporting your team, not being a glory hunter. I want us to win everything but don't expect us to win a tap whilst we are skint and don't have a team full of superstars. As I said previously, it's not rocket science.
"toolness" of the highest level = when posters are calling Moyes crap but then turn on the posters who are not castigating Moyes at every turn and say we are not good enough to win a trophy. I can't say it now without suffering the wrath of the wisened.
You really couldn't write this stuff...oh wait you just did.
Michael, have a read through your own website at my posts, never once said he was making us better every season at all. Last year/season I have stated many times, we are a slightly above average team and you simply don't win things with a slightly above average team (Unless you play Cardiff in the final of a cup)
Simple mind is correct. You cannot trot out all your "tactically inept" crap and then suggest a post that theoretically agrees with you be seen as something to pour scorn on. Very simple indeed.
It comes to something when a man who has constantly told us how crap our manager is to have a go at a poster deemed too optimistic for not having hope in the future. Irony much?
Do you foresee a trophy within the next 5 years, I certainly don't.
What's the point? It's called supporting your team, not being a glory hunter. I want us to win everything but don't expect us to win a tap whilst we are skint and don't have a team full of superstars. As I said previously, it's not rocket science.
Anthony Hughes
67
James, if the height of your ambition is to finish 6th and that is viewed as some sort of success then it's a poor show.
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You need to learn the difference between ambition and expectation. First of all we watch and support. Our ambition has little to do with it, I believe James was mentioning his expectation.
Saying you demand more otherwise the manager can naff off does not make you a better fan than someone else who does not - nor a fan who wants more.
What do I want foir this season. As it started with little competition upfront and still no right side, I thought 5th or 6th. That wouhld shpow we are still up there minus the effin money to get a right mid or a striker. And next year, there'll be no Pienaar, so Moyes will have to work his magic again.
As for trophies, I want the FA Cup and Europa League at Goodison in the next three years. I do not rate the League Cup, and never have done. Iwas not even excited in 2008 semi. Someone mentioned all these smaller clubs winning trophies since 95. Yeah, Pompey, and then a list of League Cups. Better than nowt I s'pose, but it does not excite me.
But Moyes needs the finance to have a player in every position. We have no right mid, and barely have a striker at the mo.
67
James, if the height of your ambition is to finish 6th and that is viewed as some sort of success then it's a poor show.
-------------
You need to learn the difference between ambition and expectation. First of all we watch and support. Our ambition has little to do with it, I believe James was mentioning his expectation.
Saying you demand more otherwise the manager can naff off does not make you a better fan than someone else who does not - nor a fan who wants more.
What do I want foir this season. As it started with little competition upfront and still no right side, I thought 5th or 6th. That wouhld shpow we are still up there minus the effin money to get a right mid or a striker. And next year, there'll be no Pienaar, so Moyes will have to work his magic again.
As for trophies, I want the FA Cup and Europa League at Goodison in the next three years. I do not rate the League Cup, and never have done. Iwas not even excited in 2008 semi. Someone mentioned all these smaller clubs winning trophies since 95. Yeah, Pompey, and then a list of League Cups. Better than nowt I s'pose, but it does not excite me.
But Moyes needs the finance to have a player in every position. We have no right mid, and barely have a striker at the mo.
You clearly demonstrate the waffle of a classic Moyes apologist. He's a great manager but he cannot rise above the shackles of outrageous fortune... or the lack thereof. Forever back to the old money arguement.
You should look to what he, the manager said, about his targets at the start of the season, and what he has said repeatedly about challenging the top teams without having their resources.
Moyes believes in that.. yet you don't. You and your ilk continually make excuses for his failure, accepting the mediocrity that you see as our due. Well, a least if you have such low expectations, you can be fairly sure of never being too perturbed about the situation. The dumbing down of expectations that seems a common theme among Moyes supporters.
That's not the Everton I was brought up supporting. And that's not what passionate support of a quest for the possible should be all about to my mind. What's that club motto again?
You should look to what he, the manager said, about his targets at the start of the season, and what he has said repeatedly about challenging the top teams without having their resources.
Moyes believes in that.. yet you don't. You and your ilk continually make excuses for his failure, accepting the mediocrity that you see as our due. Well, a least if you have such low expectations, you can be fairly sure of never being too perturbed about the situation. The dumbing down of expectations that seems a common theme among Moyes supporters.
That's not the Everton I was brought up supporting. And that's not what passionate support of a quest for the possible should be all about to my mind. What's that club motto again?
Roberto, read the last two lines of post 66, nowhere does it say expectation, it states that is it ridiculous to suggest we can reach sixth place? and asks us to have ambition to finish sixth place. Please don't patronise me and tell me i need to learn the difference between ambition and expectation.
Some of you guys require surgical removal from Moyes arse.
Some of you guys require surgical removal from Moyes arse.
And Michael you clearly demonstrate the waffle of a Moyes/Everton hater.
the funniest thing about this is that I agree that Everton and Moyes aren't good enough to win anything, yet I am labeled a Moyes Apologist.
This probably stems back to our little run ins where you simply don't like me because I won't throw a tirade of abuse at Moyes and I am sarcastic.
I don't make excuses for his (you see! you say his, when it is also the fault of the team also, but you won't admit that) failings at all, I simply say our team is not good enough and no matter who is at the helm, tat team of players will not win anything. It's a quite simple concept, yet I have t apparently keep repeating myself and shouting to the cheap seats to make myself understood.
Nothing to do with being a Moyes supporter but EVERYTHING to do with knowing how goof the team I support is.
I can wish or leagues and cup....but I don't expect them, definitely not at the moment. As I said, it's a simple concept......maybe not to some people though
the funniest thing about this is that I agree that Everton and Moyes aren't good enough to win anything, yet I am labeled a Moyes Apologist.
This probably stems back to our little run ins where you simply don't like me because I won't throw a tirade of abuse at Moyes and I am sarcastic.
I don't make excuses for his (you see! you say his, when it is also the fault of the team also, but you won't admit that) failings at all, I simply say our team is not good enough and no matter who is at the helm, tat team of players will not win anything. It's a quite simple concept, yet I have t apparently keep repeating myself and shouting to the cheap seats to make myself understood.
Nothing to do with being a Moyes supporter but EVERYTHING to do with knowing how goof the team I support is.
I can wish or leagues and cup....but I don't expect them, definitely not at the moment. As I said, it's a simple concept......maybe not to some people though
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