Andy, fair reflection of whats gone on.

Moyes has been here so long even people like me who always suspected his methods hoped he'd ram the criticisms down our throat, progress from the purple patch of last year with a decent squad and work the magic.

He has'nt, and the problems look self inflicted.

Its painful for him and us, but he won't change now. He must go.

People have always questioned Moyes even in our most successful periods of his management... and just to be a Richard Dodd in the optimism stakes, we're 6 points off 4th! Who's with me on that then?

Wow. Not many defenders of the management on here over the last three days. And frankly some of what has been going on at Goodison does seem to defy logic. But nobody has died. We haven?t yet lost six nil.. We?ve been losing by the odd goal (look at our goal difference).

Reassurance? Well sort of. Whatever experiments have been going on (and some of them have been pretty bloody weird) will now stop. And we will move slowly but surely up the table.

Do I like the way we are playing? Of course not. Are we about to embark on sexy football inspired by memories of the School of Science? Not a chance. It probably won?t be pretty and it isn?t what anyone wants. But we do have the core of a decent team. And when the confidence returns so will the better quality of football, the sort of stuff we were playing at the back end of last season.

What?s going on now is the reward you get for not giving the manager the £30 million he desperately needed during the close season.

Moyes has raised realistic expectations at Everton much higher than his predecessor. It's clear that the players, and club in general, have improved qualitatively under Moyes.

He will be questioning himself now. I believe he has earned the right to our support this season. Too many people, staff and support, seem to throw the head up before the final whistle. Satisfied. Preconceived bias manifested. Nice moan.

My own view is that Moyes needs a new assistant. Moyes can and will rekindle the team's hunger and build momentum yet again, but that is not enough.

Forget that ballbag Kenwright for now. The season has started. It's a team effort from the team, its management and support.

Nick (2), If that is supposed to be reassuring, it hasn't worked for me. But if you say we are thirteen points behind the leaders after only five games... well now, that hits the spot!

Andy, you say that if Moyes turns it around and the usual Moyes apologists come on here asking what crisis? then you will be happy to say you overacted, but what position in the league do we have to reach for you to admit that? Because, for me, qualifying for Europe is NOT good enough for an apology.

In fact, whatever happens now will not change the fact that Moyes has fucked things up so far this season and by far the majority of comments on this site are completely true and reasonable. No-one is overreacting as we have seen it all to many times before under Moyes.

I've always liked Moyes and, if anyone could be a top class manager, I would want it to be him as he is honest,respectfull and has other old fashioned qualities that you don't see too much of these days... but sadly he has not got what it takes. That much is obvious and I think even the most loyal of Moyes supporters is beginning to believe it now.

Christopher McCullough, what we witnessed on Saturday and the reaction to it has nothing to do with having a "Preconceived bias" what we saw on Saturday was utter shite no more no less. And that is down to players, being played out of position in a formation that is negative. FFS we are playing one up front at home to newcastle?????? I for one am really sick of Moyes tactics.

I think 5 games into a season is a little too soon to be calling for any managers head.

#7 I've criticized his tactics repeatedly. And I don't think everyone has a preconcieved bias against Moyes. You've overlooked my point.

Moyes has always been basically cautious and will always move that way when under any pressure. His mentality, is to ensure that we defended well, and score the necessary minimum number of goals to win, failing that accept a draw. The over packed central midfield is testimony to that as his is distrust of any pace in his team. Pace carries with it a possibility that the ball will be lost, pace is not conducive with ball retention, which requires a slower controlled build up. Also long balls delivered from the back 4 to a lone forward or two, still allows men to be kept behind the ball.

But Moyes will listen and has listened to his players when its obvious the shape, or the style of football is failing us ? remember Wigan 2 years ago when a completely useless performance and result prompted a fundamental change with Arteta coming in off the wing to orchestrate a ?joined up football style? (as Ken Buckley would say). This has served us well for the last 2 years with the odd hiccup ? Hull away last year springs to mind. I seem to remember that night that Moyes once again stuck a round player into a square hole (Rodwell as right winger !!).

What we are seeing this year is a failure of the joined up football, we have been out fought in 3 games, Blackburn, Wolves and Newcastle, and Moyes has lost patience and will now revert to his former style of toughening up midfield (Neville and Fellaini) and will possibly move Arteta back to the right wing. This might be just the brake we need to arrest our slide.

I believe that he will revert back to joined up only and if we get on a decent run of wins/draws .

The football we are about to see will be duller, less refined but if his mini ? Dogs of War? style works lets go for it.

I'm not a Moyes apologist, and like everyone else I'm baffled by square pegs in round holes etc, and I've stated more times than once that Moyes' judgement is clouded by the right side problem.

But why do the players get off so lightly? After all these same players all constantly informing us how good they are. Fellani?s dad stating that his son should play for a 'big' club or Jonny Heitinger allegedly holding the view that he should play for Barca. And Arteta and Pienaar and their agents have probably giving it the ?top class players should be on top class wages?. So out of position or not, these ?top class? players should?ve steamrolled an average team, instead they made Joey Barton and Kevin ?fuckin? Nolan look like world beaters as they totally dominated our ?Rolls Royce? midfield.

Even though they?re being played out of position, they could put a shift in.

Richard Reeves you say - "honest,respectful and has other old fashioned qualities"

And those are the exact reasons he will never be successful anywhere.

We the fans are mostly to blame for allowing the fat controller to take over in the first place, and we have let him dig his fat arse into the club so much, that no one gives a flying fuck we are going nowhere, cant compete for the title..

People need to wake up, get this fat fuck out, and then get a buyer..you bet there are buyers out there.

We have to take risks, we cant sit back and watch us sink into the shit like other teams have done. Taking a gamble is better than watching your beloved club end up a fucking shambles to the point it winds up.

Id rather see us up there where we belong , not where we are. Seriously the kids of today are chuffed with 5 or 6 and think its some sort of achievement and success. how the fuck is 5 or 6 success?

Until people pull their heads out their backsides and see the trouble we are in, with the fattest of controllers slowly chocking our club into death...we will never compete with the top 5 let alone the top 6, we are slowly and surely sinking further and further into the shit. No matter how you look at it, even teams like wolves have pissed over us this season in terms of spending.. I mean wolves!!

We need people to stand up and kick the fat twat out of our club and if moyse wants to go, then good ridance..we would be better off!

I want either Sven or MON brought in, but they wont come until the fat club killer leaves.

Did anyone listen to five live tonight? David Platt did suggest that money has bought the silence of David Moyes but the consensus seemed to be that we are lucky to have him. Also, it was mentioned that we had lost,unluckily, to Athletico Madrid in the Champions league.
The standard of punditry regarding Everton is insulting and ill -informed. It still seems that Moyes is regarded as a man who, given the right opportunity will be a success. Maybe that is the case . If,though, we were suddenly to come into huge funds I'd rather see the players bought coached by someone else.

I agree with the OP. The first three games can be seen as unlucky, we dominated possession in each and might have won all three if we weren't so toothless in attack or had simply had a slice of luck of the type Kalinic got. The fourth game was bizarre but ultimately a decent result, so it is the fifth that is the tide turner, and really makes all the others look bad.

What Moyes does now is absolutely crucial to whether or not he can be seen as the right man to continue. Somebody said it on another thread, that insanity is to continue to do the same things and expect a different result.

Change things now, pick a bolder, attacking first team against Brentford, and then continue with it at the weekend. Personally I'd go for Howard (although maybe Mucha just for the Brentford game); Coleman, Jagielka, Heitinga, Baines; Fellaini and Arteta in central midfield, Gueye left, Pienaar right and Bily supporting whichever striker is available, preferably Yakubu (I know this line-up breaks the Pienaar/Baines combo but things can be switched around during the game, and frankly, other teams seem clued up to it anyway). Pienaar, Bily and Gueye can switch around in the three positions supporting the striker.

Andy, I offer this as consolation:

I'm sure you hear of these women who are beaten by their husbands, abused like no human should have to endure. They are hit, then they swear that's it, they'll leave the man - that's the last time. But they inevitably go back recreating the horror cycle afresh. All's well for maybe a few weeks, months, whatever. Then they are hit again.... it's a tragedy and a crime.

Every week I tune in from the States. I watch Osman played out wide, Coleman benched, Fella playing out of postion, Rodwell on the right, Heitinga as the CDM, Beckford wasted up top by himself when his back to the goal isn't for shit (yet), Distin looking pedestrian at CB for the most part, etc, etc etc. Monday comes and I'm beaten. I wonder why I bother. I swear if Moyes doesn't change his ways I'm done with it - for good this time. I just can't take it anymore.

Then the next week I'm in front of the TV watching again....starting the cycle afresh.

Things will get better for a time - but then they'll get worse again. Why? Because this 5 game start to the season has opened my eyes: Moyes will not change. He'll eventually beat me again.

So my consolation is this: we can't be too far away from the upswing. Enjoy it while it lasts. It's a cycle, and things are bound to get better.

But Davey boy will eventually lash us again in time. And we'll all take it like the good subserviant souls we are b/c we love our club. And you always return to love, don'tcha?

It's the only analogy I could come up with. It's ugly, and for the record lest someone runs me up the pole - Football is a game - in the real world we can all agree my above comments regarding abuse don't compare and aren't even in the same universe as the woes of your Club losing - a game(!).

All I know is I get kicked around by tactics and poor selection, swear I'm done with it, and come back for more.

But smile Andy! Because the tide will turn for a little bit of time! Don't bother yourself with the knowledge that you'll enter the downward spiral at some point again. Enjoy the upswing!

Because we're all drug addicts and we can't go without our fix of Everton Football Club, and David Moyes dolling out the heroine week in and week out.

I'll be back....and so will you.

I've read most of the posts on all threads in the aftermath of the Newcastle game.

I would say 95% of posts lay the the blame squarely on the shoulders of D.M. Just to give another perspective, Howard at Blackburn, Fellaini at Villa, Heitinga against Wolves, Distin against Manu and Heitinga letting the Skunks in again. Now add the shite play going forward of our midfield and strikers.

Moyes has to take his share of the blame, but please do not forget the fuckups and individual errors. The overpaid tossers must also hold their hands up.

Andy - Defend the coach how? Why? We have great shots at the net and don't put it in. THAT'S the problem. This weekend was the first game I missed. But, if we were so inept and such a disaster tactically, why didn't we get blown out? Why? And, we had chances to get a point (minimum)

I'm guessing you don't get many "Moyes defenders" defending him now because the problem is goal-scoring. We outplayed the first 3 teams, had a back and forth with ManU and, apparently, played like shit this weekend.

Yet no one has smoked or dominated us. Does Moyes have anything to do with THAT? What? Huh? Come on, I'm liostening. Tear him to shreds.

We need to put it in the net. We've had the chances every single game.

First I agree that Moyes is partly to blame,but what do we do about it sack him? Who worth their salt would come in and have Billy Liar as his boss.so back to Moyes his main flaw is he never appears to learn from his mistakes,his line ups could also have a lot to do that he lacks faith in his players ability. also we should be able to attract better players but todays players play for their wallet not the shirt hence we gamble on the Beckfords no disrespect he might come good but we should by buying ready made premier class players and we all know why thats a pipedream

Roy, Kenwright has many faults but he has never interfered on footballing issues, not bought and sold players behind Moyes back as far as I know. It's well known theres is little or no money, so where is the wheeling and dealing by Moyes to attempt to balance the squad? Moyes is happy to play the martyr cos he's too comfortable in his position. He'd be found out big time if he went to 'bigger'club

How dare you say `apologistas` like me have gone away. The truth is many of us don`t wish to dignify the utter garbage written by the serial critics of our widely respected manager.

Davey has proved over and over that when his players let him down, a return to pragmatic football immediately does the trick. That`s why he`s talking about returning the team to a more direct game. Yes, that implies hoof-ball and playing it tight but it can`t come quickly enough for me because it`s a game his teams have mastered over nearly nine seasons. Fancy football ? I`m done with that nonsense, bring back Captain Sensible!

Richard @20- " Yes, that implies hoof-ball and playing it tight...." " Fancy football ? I'm done with that nonsense..."

Is that the limit of your aspirations?

Excuse me, whilst a wave of incredulity just washes over me!

Has Moyes really raised our expectations? The great history of our club has raised my expectations. Great ex-players and a trophy cabinet to boast about raised my expectations. Moyes doesn't fall short of expectations he's raised himself, he falls short of those expectations of Evertonians that we are a great club and deserve better than the utter shit he serves up every week.

I am not greatful to Moyes just because we've achieved 3 top 6 finishes and 1 cup final in his 8 years in charge. I'm not greatful for his shoambolic European record. I don't get why he is held in such high regard. The bad times and bad records he now holds far outweigh the positives. A manager who only seems to have a run of 10 games a season where the team plays well is not a good manager.

Some may say I am over-reacting but I honestly believe this will be one of our worst seasons under Moyes. There is easily enough evidence to now suggest this. He's been found out and only a brain transplant will change him.

Richard Dodd your a complete fucking wind up merchant of the highest order. Surely even you can't possibly believe what you post.

If you want hoof-ball Richard, then why don't we sack your beloved Moyes and bring in the man himself, Sam Allardyce?

Each season we start badly and I think that our pre-season overseas jaunts are part of the cause... Trips to the USA and Oz are not good preparation in my book !! Whats wrong with domestic or european pre-seasons?? The long trips dont seem to bring in much revenue and must cost the earth... our players dont seem to be sharper for it and some look out of condition.

Why does everyone go including DM and Round? It was while away on one of these 'waste of money' JOLLIES that our squad ended up being so sparse that our bench was filled with youngsters who have hardly played for the first eleven since.

This is to my mind, bad management and bad preparation. Keep the money spent on these stupid trips for transfers and play worthwhile opposition to really get the lads sharp. Playing abroad in hot temperatures saps strength and certainly does players more harm than good. I'm convinced that our pre-seasons are looked forward to as holidays.

Fair call Andy, I'm broadly speaking a Moyes supporter and there's been little this season to justify that so far (though to be fair I don't post often any way!).

The slow start is hugely frustrating at any time but especially after a summer of expectation - expectation that, while not exactly flamed, was certainly not dampened by the club themselves as has been in the past.

I believe almost every manager has flaws and Moyes is no exception. However the key thing for me, that he simply must find a way to negotiate, is how the team performs when they are EXPECTED to do well. We have shown we can compete with the best of them, we can give the Man Utd and Chelsea a game, now we have to show we can swat aside allegedly 'lesser' teams on a regular basis.

If we can't do that with this squad then I'll certainly be less enamoured of the manager than I currently am. But I've not written off the season just yet.

"Has Moyes really raised our expectations? The great history of our club has raised my expectations. Great ex-players and a trophy cabinet to boast about raised my expectations."

It just depends how old you are and how far back you go. Younger Everton fans whose main experience is the 90s relegation battles and thinking the top half of the table was the promised land will have a different perspective to those who remember when we could consider ourselves the best team in Europe having won the English league (provider of 7 of 9 preceding European Champions) and Cup Winner's Cup.

Mike, I still don't think it's down to Moyes that those younger fans have higher expectations. The reason we wanted Walter Smith, Mike Walker, Howard Kendall (mk III) all sacked is because of higher expectations. I don't think anyone has expectations of us winning the league with Moyes or even reaching the top 4 so how is he responsible for raising anyone's expectations? All any fan of any age knows is we deserve better than a lot of the shite Moyes has served up over his 8 years.

Ignore Richard Dodd and his wind ups.

Richard Dodd is a figment of someone's imagination.

@ Trevor 25

I think your right our whole problem with slow out the traps is playing junk in pre-season, long haul holidays for the players, ripping off the loyal supporters trying to go and watch their team half way round the world, to watch a bunch of amateurs beaten by us.

I suggest staying at home, playing some games at home, after all, it is where we play half our games, and getting some better teams in to test the players out. Sod playing Preston every pre-season, why not play Ajax or someone at least up to Premier League standard? It's easy to look good in pre-season when you play junk; the only team that was any good was Wolfsburg and they beat us, that told me everything I needed to know about our pre-season.

As nutty as Richard Dodd is, he still makes some valid points occassionally. Then again, even a broken clock is right two times a day.

Yes, our performance on Saturday was not acceptable. We appear to be making many mistakes in the form of missed passes, limited movement and poor marking. Equally, Newcastle played above themselves with much more incisive passing and movement. What's the answer?

It certainly isn't panicking and asking for the removal of the best manager we have had since Kendall!! The answer is hard work on the training pitch, building of confidence for many players who are off their game ? e.g. Arteta, Yak, Pienaar, or new to the Prem e.g. Beckford.

As for being negative, What do you want, a Keegan type of manager?....no thanks! No. 1 on the list. Don't leak goals (esp. at home).

Buyers for the club out there? Absolute rubbish! Don't you think that anyone who might be looking at buying a club will have already found out everything about the club before even making any approach. Fact is that as a business we are sinking due to the restrictions imposed by our ground. The only way out would be to buy up the hundreds of houses which suround it, or move.

Perhaps I should have justified my theory on a return to the unpopular hoof-ball by adding that its use has preceded all the good runs we have had under Moyes. His concern will be much more about the 7 goals we have conceded rather than the only 4 we`ve scored but if `safety-first` is to be the policy at least, if successful, it will give us something to build on ? as in the past.

Not for the first time, and mainly out of frustration and disappointment, other links and discussions on TW start to pull individual players apart ? Ossie, Hibbo, Distin and Beckford ? coming in for heavy criticism fairly or unfairly. Other targets are Moyes and (I think unfairly) Kenwright.

I think the root of all our current problems and those of the past couple of seasons have been the poor pre-season preparations and ? as much as I like Moyesey ? surely this must be down to him.

We play stupid fixtures half way round the globe in July and then a couple of soft fixtures against the likes of second division outfits. We delude ourselves on the basis of these results that we're going to have a great season.

In reality this approach only extends our pre-season into August and September and (God Forbid!) October. At the moment I don't think DM knows his best team and injuries are no excuse right now. The players don't look too sharp, the team is unbalanced and the term "hit the ground running" doesn't seem to register at Goodison Park.

No doubt things will pick up in a few weeks and optimism for a European place or a cup run will rise. But wouldn't it be great for once to get off to a flyer? Other than Chelsea this year, there appears to be alot of mediocrity around and we could be up there now with momentum building for a top 4 place. We should even be getting ready for a few "Going Down, Going Down, Going Down" chants at the derby match but we've even blown that rare chance now as we're still getting ready for our traditional season kick-off - sometime before Christmas.

If there's alot of mediocrity around then it's even more worrying that were second bottom.