You're being too hard on yourself, Paul. I think you make a very reasonable case. Hibbert is a very good defender. Seamus... not so much.

Right midfield would get my vote. It seems so obvious really.... but the thought about him not having the space is an interesting one. Let's see if Moyes will play him there... somehow, I doubt it; if he was going to, I think he would have already. I hope I'm wrong about that, though

Paul - I totally agree I'd always have Hibbert over Coleman, he's the best tackler and most solid defender at the club. However, I believe the whole debate is pointless - Neville should be our right back, his leadership has been sadly lacking these last three games.

Hilarious how people can make their mind up about a kid after just a few appearances. I mean...Tony Hibbert is a boss defender isn;t he, I must have imagined him getting left for dead every single time by Ben Arfa in the first half on Saturday.

It's amazing how someone comes up with an idea, and everyone just follows it.

I've seen Tony Hibbert's entire career with this club, I was at Upton Park when he won a penalty on his debut..much more of an attacking threat he was back then,much like young Seamus!!

Having seen it all though, to call him a 'solid defender', it beggars belief.

Tony Hibbert remains at this club for 2 reasons only, and neither have anything to do with ability. 1. He's a scouser 2. Moyes misguided loyalty

He is a good defender against one type of player only...the "knock it out of the feet and run after it in a straight line" type, Stewart Downing and Martin Petrov basically.

Anyone who can stop the ball, drop the shoulder, come insider OR out...he's bamboozled.

Rooney has embarrassed him time and time again, as has Ashley Young. Ben Arfa did exactly the same. My view is, harsh as it may sound, that after his performance in the FA Cup final, he should have never pulled on an Everton shirt again.

If ever a players performance on a big stage said that he wasn't up to the task, then it was Hibbo's at Wembley.

To persist with him after that was a black and white acceptance of mediocrity.

How come everyone can see the bleeding obvious except our manager. Why not put Coleman on the right of midfield, the others in their right positions and see how it goes. I think we need a win so very badly starting at Fulham.

Neil Steele..

Your assessment of Hibbert is harsh, but I think its probably the brutal truth. I try and defend (cough) him whenever I can, but I think you're absolutely correct on the matter. Its a shame really, but he's not done too bad out of the club I would imagine. And its an even bigger shame that, in my opinion, he's the best right back we have.

By the way I don't agree with you that someone comes up with an idea 'and everyone follows it'. I think this is an illusion, as more people who agree are likely to join in the debate?

Paul,
I have to totally disagree with your assessment of Coleman.

He comes on when the whole side is playing shite and we're chasing the game so he has to push forward and he did have the pace to chase back a few times.

As for the Nolan incident that wasnt even Seamus's man yet if he hadnt got that challenge in it was a certain goal.

We can analyse indidviduals till the cows come home but when the whole side is playing shite it is wrong to look at individuals.

Also Tony Hibbert is a pretty good right back despite what othes say and as for the cup final it was obvious to every fan there that he wasnt fit and having got booked should have been taken off.

Well, not everyone, obviously Alex. I see a recurring theme though,and it happens with many players. "Coleman can't defend"...pssst, pass it on "Coleman can't defend"...."Oh yeah, I agree, he definitely can;t defend"...."Hibbert is solid, he gets loads of unfair stick, but he's solid"....psst "Hibbo is solid isn't he" etc.

It's like the emperors new clothes, and no fucker is willing to stand up and say "hang on, what the hell are you talking about"??

Coleman has played a handful of games...he has been man of the match or a key contributor in the majority of them.

He has been caught out a couple of times, just as Hibbert and Neville have been time, and time,and time again. So where the big problem? Why can he 'not defend' because he has been caught out a couple of times, as all players are..especially young ones??

To me, this kind of attitude, writing Coleman off as worse than Hibbert, is symptomatic of the way in which many Evertonians have been brainwashed into Moyes' way of thinking.

Everything is "play it safe" and "lets take the solid option".

Well fuck off, i'm sick and tired of it. Hibbert is proven rubbish, a failure, a big game choker...and he doesn't belong at this club.

Can Dani Alves defend like Maldini, can he? Maxwell? Evra? Clichy? Was Cafu even a brilliant defender?

I don't think so.

The difference there though is understanding the systems and philosophies employed by some of the best sides in europe,and those of a negative mediocrity like David Moyes.

I'm just startled, given the global coverage of top level football that exists, that anyone actually buys into it.

Let me leave you with a thought; What do you think would be the reaction of Arsene Wenger or Pep Guardiola if they turned up to take over their new side and found Tony Hibbert in possession of the right back slot?

Neil, your entitled to your opinion, but you seriously undermine your credibility as someone who's "seen Tony Hibbert's entire career with this club" by using the Cup Final performance to justify your criticisms : FAIL!

Paul: Hibbert DID give a penalty away under virtually identical circumstances against Spurs last year (remember: that game where Coleman came on and almost single-handedly inspired the team to fightback from being 2-0 down?).

I also remember him offering virtually no resistance whatsoever in a very important game called the FA Cup Final, where we might as well have stood a traffic cone in the right back position.

So where do all these perpetual 'Coleman can't defend... Hibbert can' assertions come from?

From what I've seen of Coleman in four or five matches so far, he's been inspirational.

And right now, I dare suggest our attacking needs are greater than our defensive ones.

Who says he can't defend. Where's the evidence? Isn't he allowed a few errors when making his breakthrough into the team? Everyone else is?

So for goodness' sake, let's give the guy some games and then decide.

If he's no good, he'll get found out and we'll find out.

I think he'll carry on where he left off. We need his direct, straight-line-to-goal approach desperately right now.

No disrespect to Hibbert and Osman, but they've played hundreds of games between them and I can't remember a single instance where either of them has turned one.

Paul, I reserve judgement on Coleman's ability to perform at right back for the simple reason I've not seen enough of him. From what little I have seen, he really comes to life further up the park and looks a lot more comfortable there. He seems to relish running at defenders. I've been saying for a long time he could well be the answer to our problems wide right.

On the few occasions we've had the opportunity to observe him getting forward he's looked considerably better than anyone else at performing in that role. I have to confess I'm totally bewildered by Moyes stance on this. Osman has been a monumental disaster, I can honestly say I've never seen a player perform so badly in a position.

For me it's a no-brainer we've absolutely nothing to lose by giving him a run in that position. Who knows it may even bring out the best in Hibbert with a player ahead of him capable of dropping back and helping out defensively when the need arises. I won't hold my breath though, the recent substitutions of Hibbert would suggest to me that these are just a prelude to re-introducing Neville with Osman ahead of him, god help us.

Hibbert can defend, he just can't defend against pace(see Young and Malouda)

Against less pacy players he is ace defensively.


Coleman, might just do against the aforementioned players, but his positioning and defensive sense is not yet there.

I won't write Coleman off as a right back just yet(although right midfield should be given a chance), but i will never agree to that Tony Hibbert is as bad as some people make him out to be.

Just don't put him up against speedy players with reasonable skill, a recipe for disaster. Thankfully out and out wingers are a rare sight nowadays.

There is one reason why Moyes keeps playing Hibbert... He wants to see what the crowd does when he scores!

I actually don't mind seeing Hibbo on the team sheet. He is actually pretty good at his primary objective, which is defending.

Seeing Osman on the right of midfield however, makes me want to cry. He fails on almost every one of his objectives as a wide player... Creativity, crossing, shooting, putting pressure on the opposition fullback etc. I honestly look at him somethimes and think that I could do better, so I am 100% confident that Coleman would!

Those who say that Coleman has been caught out time and time again ought to get their eyesight checked. Against the Barcodes he dashed back quite a few times to cover and I don?t remember seeing any opponent beating him for pace in the few games he played. A defender who is asked to attack as well has to cover the entire flank in a hurry and that is certainly true when your right winger is Leon Osman who will never win a 100m race even at primary school level. As far as I can see, Osman did not really give Coleman much cover and to say that he is defensively weak just because he?s been ?caught out? is idiotic. If we had Donovan instead of Osman, Coleman would have looked like bloody Maicon!

Hibbert?s defending has been pretty decent so far. Coleman offers us options going forward. The solution is pretty obvious: Play Coleman as right winger and have Hibbert covering him. Any manager cannot afford to ignore a talent like Coleman for long and it?s time David Moyes grow some brains.

Another choice will be to play Coleman as wingback and Gueye as winger, especially when we are playing teams who have a pacy left side. Sadly for now, Gueye has no experience at this level and we may have to win until next season to see this combination. And of course, if our squad is not decimated by injuries in the mean time or if Moyes does not send him out on loan.

I?m sorry but Hibbert is average, Coleman has potential and needs time to find a role until then it should be Phil Neville all day long, If Hibbert was out of contract who would come in for him Hull, Sheffield United maybe Blackpool give him a year away from EFC and he would be struggling to make a living out of the game. I admire his passion and determination as that as got him where he is today but he has to work at 110% to be an average player and as he gets older it becomes harder to achieve.

At the United game he crossed the ball on many occasions but is was the normal looped cross which is very difficult to convert, look at Baines, Nani and even the cross of Coleman its driven with pace and a has low trajectory that?s what attacking full backs need to deliver, Neville isn?t at that level on crosses but his overall game is of a higher standard than Hibbert, hence his inclusion?. Coleman, well I?m just not sure how he can fit in to the team other than from the bench at present. COYB

Hibbert is not that bad, and not that good either. For me, play him or Neville at right back when we up against more fashionable team like Man U, Chelski etc. when the need to defend occurs more often. Coleman shall plays at right side... yes, he can't do no worse than Ossie.

Against lesser team, DM must beef up the side with attacking formation and players and then.. Coleman plays as right back (overlapping the likes of Konchelsky etc..)
There I said it... start with Brentford!!!

Some of the other forums are having a bit of a Hibbo love-in at the moment. I can't see why. In my opinion, he is just about good enough for Wigan, and him and Osman are ? nice fellas and all that ? simply not of the standard we now require.

We are all wondering when our results will pick up, and I can tell you definitively. History will tell you, as soon as Hibbert has a prolonged absence from the staring XI, we will go on a run.

I don't like to slag our own players off, or the manager for that matter, but what's apparent to the layman must be so obvious to opposing managers. And there were a few of them at GP on Saturday......

Gareth Bale, Glenn Johnson, both of these players are hopeless defenders, but their attacking attributes have the opposition on the back foot when they have possession. Bale was that poor playing at left back that Redknapp was going to farm him out to a Championship club, instead he moved him to left side midfield and suddenly he is a £20m player, ripping opposition sides to pieces down their right side. Glenn Johnson is the first choice England right back, a team managed by a defensive coach, who plays him because of the threat he causes to the opposition.

For a manager like Moyes, who persistently plays players out of position, not to switch Coleman to an out-and-out right midfielder is strange, as it is clearly our weakness. When Coleman came on on Saturday it was strange that he never really attacked the Newcastle left back, then we realised that he must have been instructed to get the ball into the box right away to try and hit Fellaini.

To say he has no pace is frankly, ridiculous, his whole came appears to be built round pace and control, witness giving Ben Arfa 5 yards start and leaving him for dead.

We can all slate Hibbert is the problem but I think there is a deeper problem with the mentally of the Everton squad and management team. This is the 3rd season in a row that Everton have started a season poorly. This has to be deeper than poor preparation in pre-season as surely if mistakes made 3 seasons ago they would have been recified last season or this season.

I think the players and management only preform when the pressure is off. After about 10 games with Everton on say 6 points everyone is saying season is lost, with that the players perform with no real pressure similar to last season when have Everton won a serious pressure game, Man Utd in 2005 at Goodison Park one of the few times, win against Liverpool in the Cup I don't see as a pressure game in the higest level of the game, the cup is not seen as that important any more.

The likes of Arteta, Pienaar, Fellaini are good players but are not good enough to play for teams where the fans expect successful in terms of trophies won e.g Man Utd, Arsenal thats why they havent moved on. Football history has taught us a lesson that the there are many players like this.

Finally Moyes has never played football in an environment of high quality pressure football, spent most of his playing career in the lower leagues, I know he played for Celtic but he moved on from there to England as he wasn't good enough. This lack of exposure at high quality pressure football means he will never do it at the top level.

Liu,

Did you watch the first half against Huddersfield? Coleman was skinned more or less every single time their winger went after him. I like the look of Coleman and think he has got potential but at this moment in time he would be a liability to the team at right back. Do I think he would be worth a go at right midfield in front of either Hibbert or Neville then yes. However, the impact people are expecting Coleman to make on the team is going completely OTT on a daily basis "If we had Donovan instead of Osman, Coleman would have looked like bloody Maicon!"

and we have also had people talking about comparisons with Roberto Carlos, Dani Alves and our own Ray Wilson over the last few months. It seems people are considering this kid as some sort of saviour and in all honesty all it will lead to is putting pressure on the lad to do something special every game and that is never going to happen which is pressure that the lad does not need heaped on his shoulders at this stage of his development.

The reason we didnt slag off Pat Van den Hauwe was that he would have jumped over the wall and twatted us!

Re Coleman - give the lad a chance.
Hibbert has had his!

Personally and sadly, as a left back, I think the days of full backs are numbered and soon we will see a back three with wing backs moving forward a la Ashley Cole and Glenn Johnson.
In that role, Coleman looks a prospect.

Baines was too small for a fullback...so the so called experts were saying...Bale was suffering as a full back and then transformed when put into midfield....MOST top fullbacks are comparitively small because PACE is needed in that position...Height is needed at centre back and in at least one of the forward positions...Height and pace is rare.

Coleman MUST be tried further forward as he has dribbling skills and is not afraid to take people on. All the above observations are obvious and should be used for home games everytime.... away games may well be different against the top teams eg; more defensive formations against Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea for instance... BUT we must win more points at home to survive and a more attacking set of tactics must be used.

It seems that none of our youngsters apart from Rodwell are going to make it as a lot of them are late teens and early twenties, DM will not trust them and, let's face it... he kept even Rooney in cotton wool for a long time. I tend to believe the adage... if they are good enough then they are old enough... and Ferguson was pilloried for bringing his younsters in en bloc...

I think that young new players tend to bring enthusiasm and effort and often can shake up other teams by their endeavour and pace. At least try to 'blood' one or two when things are not going well as our present lot look toothless.

I would definitely try Coleman wide right with either Neville or Hibbert behind him... let's face it... it may work!!

My assesment of a player comes down to where he could go if he was to leave us because you will usually get a good idea of whether they are good enough for Everton based on that: Arteta (Arsenal, Barcelona Etc); Pienaar (Spurs, AC Milan, Atletico Madrid etc); Baines (Spurs, Villa, etc); Rodwell (Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal Etc); Fellaini (Chelsea, Man City etc); Beckford (Wigan, Blackpool, West Brom, Newcastle Etc); Hibbert (Blackpool, Wigan, Championship Club); Osman (Same as Hibbert); Coleman (Fulham, Villa etc)... It might just be my oinion but who here could honestly argue the case that if Osman or Hibbert were to leave us that they would join a 'bigger' club or a club at least on par with us? They wouldn't because them clubs wouldn't have them therefore they are not good enough to be in our starting 11.

I actually blame HIbbert for us not beating Wolves. The amount of times he got into a position to cross the ball and he just skyed it or hit the first man. Hibbert is the main reason why a lot of our attacks on the right side break down. I think one of the reasons he finds himself in a lot of space to make crosses is because teams don't bother closing him down because they know he's shit. In other articles, fans are complaining about our inability to play out of defence. Hibbert, again, is a massive reason why we don't do this. He has no touch and his composure on the ball is shit.

Alongside Jagielka and a decent defensive midfielder, Coleman would have enough cover to be allowed to get forward more and his crossing is far far superior to Hibbert's. This would mean opposing teams would have to mark our right side more closely leaving more space on the left for Pienaar and Baines.

The job of the modern fullback is as much to attack as defend, this is how all of the top team operate.

So the bottom line is, you either want to emulate them, or you don't. You either want us to be winners, or are content with us forever being shit.

Tony Hibbert is shite. He is a mediocre defender who is garbage in possession. He is the epitome of what this club was about 10 years ago, not now.

Anyone who can't see this, quite frankly, must be completely out of touch with the modern game.

Neil: 24 - you're clearly a football genius whereas I "must be completely out of touch with the modern game" so I'll ask you this...

Why have virtually all the goals we've conceded this season come directly from the opposition's right wing - that'll be our left side then?

And (8) I'd love to see Dani Alves or Cafu cope with Leon Osman in front of them!

Chris, because Distin is shit.

The critacism of Hibbert is harsh. He is not the best right back in the world by any means, he may not even be the best right back at the club, but he IS a good player. Players who don't take on 3 men a ping in a cross onto the strikers head or scream one in from 30 yards are less easy on the eye and some peope fail to spot other more boring attributes such as tackling commitment and discipline.

Coleman for me should be tried on the wing, it worked for Bale but if it was that simple why have Bridge, Cole, Johnson, Evra, Clichy, Carlos, Maicon, Dani Alves, Cafu, all attacking full backs, never carved out a career as a winger. Coleman needs a run of games to settle into the team and he HAS been coming through more though this season. People are clamoring for him to get more time and he is doing that, be patient, soon enough I think he will get a chance to start games.

My main worry for him is not his defensive deficiancies but the weight of expectation that is being put on the lad. My worry is that with so much expected if he isn't Roberto Cafu Alves in every game then some members of the crowd will start to get on his back to.

Alan (26)

I wouldn't disagree (although I thought he wasn't that bad against Newcastle) but it wasn't him standing 5 yards off Nani last week giving him time and space and then dangling his leg in the air in the hope of stopping the cross.

Now I'm not having a go at Baines because I like him . I'm just pointing out that players have their own strengths and weaknesses. And his two great crosses for our two injury time goals simply cancelled out his poor defending for two of United's goals.

Paul, I've always felt Hibbert is an ok defender except againt the best sides, where is prone to being skinned.
The problem we have is that Hibbert is not best suited to the 4-5-1 we always play.
Now I'm not paid £65,000 per week for my footballing nous, so forgive my ignorance here, BUT ... I thought for 4-5-1 to work full packs have to push up & overlap/support & Hibbert struggles with this.

Neil,

"The job of the modern fullback is as much to attack as defend, this is how all of the top team operate."

I agree to a certain extent with the above. However, I am a bit bemused then why you want to drop Hibbert who is ok defensively but poor going forward with a player who is poor defensively at this moment in time but good going forward. If we had someone waiting in the wings who was good at both the defensive side and attacking side of the game I could understand your logic.

It's blatantly obvious that Osman is replaced by Coleman in right mid, NOT Hibbert in right back. Hibbo has done nothing wrong, and would in fact be better with Coleman in front of him. But as for Osman in right mid... There's your weak link, and has been for the past 4 years now.

I don't care that he's a blue, been at the club for years and is a "prankster in the dressing room" (according to the OS and the Echo), it has been overdue for fucking YEARS now that his place is on the bench.

As stated, for those doubting Coleman's defending, surely him playing right mid with a solid defender in Hibbert behind him might just be a strategy that works?

It appears employing Coleman in the right of midfield has crossed Moyes' mind...

"Seamus is doing well and pushing all the time to get in the team," Moyes said.

"We brought him on at Villa in midfield as we know he has the ability to get forward and we are short of a right sided player at the moment. But he's always been a right-back.

"There is competition there with Tony Hibbert and Phil Neville but Seamus is progressing and is very close. He's a great £60,000 buy."

Danny, it's more than harsh, its ridiculous. He is probably the most consistent defender this season and was last season, when he played.

90% of the goals against us so far have come from our left. Baines standing off and Distin forgetting that he is actually quite fast.

Coleman was skinned twice within 5 minutes of coming on Saturday, should have been a penalty and his crosses were dire too. However ,some posters on here think he is the new saviour of our club.... a defender???

Some posters, who are so full with hatred, are even trying to suggest that Moyes is trying to weed out his attacking skills... God help us.

Even the Golden Boy Jags has been having a mare but who gets the stick, you've got it, Hibbert for not doing what our "creative" midfielder scan't even do this season (more if you consider Mikel's corners).

Tony, there is something wrong with you. There is a very good reason that Leighton Baines and Phil Jahgielka are England Internationals....and Tony Hibbert is a bit of a joke amongst opposition fans.

Clearly, you are missing it.

It's the same scenario now with shit like Hibbert that we had with that cart horse Lee Carsley, it's part of some Evertonians mentality...they just love a trier.

Sadly, when it comes to actually achieving anything tangible, players like this just don't cut the mustard, they hold us back.

People went on, and on and on and on about Carsley...then when he left, we didn't miss him in the slightest, in fact, our game went on to a completely different level, we actually started to control the midfield through possession for a change, instead of having 8 men behind the ball.

When Hibbert is finally removed permanently and we have Coleman bombing on and linking up with a proper midfield player, people will be like "wow, we look the business".

Probably the same people trying to defend the complete shambles that is Hibbert.

Call me a purist but I want to see football players in my team, players who want to go out and create, pass the ball, move off it...score goals etc, not a bunch of hard working cart horses who I can associate with cos they are "down to earth " or "local lads".

Grand, i'll buy them a pint if I ever see them in the pub..on the field though, just give me someone with some ability thanks.

Hear! Hear! Tony - well said.

Neil: I repeat...

"Why have virtually all the goals we've conceded this season come directly from the opposition's right wing - that'll be our left side then?"

That's where our England International full back plays I believe.

And if you think that Jags has performed better than your favourite hate figure this season, then it's you who is clearly 'missing something'.

Was Coleman 'bombing on' in the second half against the Toon or just simply being caught out of position? In time he might be an excellent full back but right now I (and apparently a lot of other Blues) would rather see him playing instead of Osman not Hibbert.

god another Coleman/Hibbert thread! Jesus I think RB is the least of our worries! I'm more concerned with Cb's in Centre midfield and DM's up front!

Chris, I ignored your point initially because of the stupidity of it,not because I felt 'stumped'. The simple answer...you're wrong, they haven't. The only one I can think of that you could blame Baines for would be the Fletcher goal, as he failed to stop the Nani cross. Personally though, looking at where the goal was struck from, and the piss poor 'screening' at the front post...i'd pin the blame squarely on Heitinga and Distin. The rest you are just clutching. A breakaway into any channel,when both fullbacks are pushed on, does not + fullback's fault. This is just rudimentary stuff though, which is obviously over your head.

By your logic, if Baines is on the flank by the Gwladys giving Pienaar an option, but Pienaar loses it and the opposition break up the right flank and the ball is in the net 10 seconds later...that's Baines' fault...right?

Err, no. It's called you not understanding football.

Neil: I suggest you watch all this season's games again before you start insulting people's intelligence and their understanding of football. For both the United goals that came from right wing crosses Baines was not 'caught upfield' but was standing 5 yards in front of the United player with his leg in the air. Perhaps you don't believe it because you think he's an England player.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story eh? I expect you blame Hibbert for last night's defeat as well.

You got what you wanted and as far as I can see Coleman scored but allowed a goal and gave away a penalty which to my mind puts him in negative territory, against a team 44 places below us in the league. As I said before I've nothing against Coleman but think he should be played instead of Osman at present, not at right back.

Anyway, please yourself. Personally I think Moyes needs to grow some - one up front at Brentford is laughable!

Chris, i'm sure we want the same things, but suffice to say...I think your technical/tactical outlook on games is both extremely simplistic (like a computer game - cross = fullback to blame etc) and to be honest, completely wrong.

Still, that's the beauty of sites like this...you are free to air your opinions, as I am mine.

My view is that you have stated a position on Coleman and will use any number of absurd arguments to back it up.

Neil - as a last word from me on this, I don't play computer games I simply watch what's going on in front of me every week. I've played competitive football for almost four decades, in midfield and at full back, so I have some small insight in to what goes on on a pitch. And my 'position' as you call it wasn't originally on Coleman but on Hibbert.

But as you say we both want better - to see the team scoring goals and not letting soft ones in at the other end. Fingers crossed eh?