The Mail Bag
When the going gets tough
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When all about us seem to be putting sick notes in, how good it is to see two of our unsung heroes step up to the plate and turn in excellent performances? I refer to Leon Osman and Tony Hibbert.
Osman is now showing that centre midfield is where he does his best work... And Tony Hibbert, when tackling well and keeping things simple, is a great asset to our club. I still think he could do the job Carsley did for us, we certainly miss that type of player.
Keep up the good work lads.
Brian Swift, Posted 22/03/2011 at 17:26:24
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I am not sure about Hibbert in the Carsley role but the pair of them have been given an opportunity and have grabbed it with both hands. I like the pair of them but I do feel we need better in their position if we are to 'progress'. However, they are Evertonians and they both give 100% and you can't ask for much more than that.
As you have correctly pointed out, we have missed Hibberts tackling and in my opinion he is one of the best in the league at this skill. Although his distribution is poor, it is improving and no worse than Neville's or Jags and he spent most of the Birmingham game in the oppositions half providing more cover than Pip usually does for players like Coleman.
Osman has stepped up to the plate and has become 'the creative force' in Arteta's absence and Pienaar's desertion. He needs to impose himself for the whole game though as he tends to fade in the second half of games.
I do feel sorry for our home grown players, you look at the ones who get more stick than anyone and it's Hibbert, Osman, Anichebe and now Rodwell seems to have become a bit of a whipping boy. Shame really. Good post.
Hibbert is awful and if he continues to play it will only be a matter of time before another red card/penalty/og [insert horrendous mistake here].
I've never seen a Premier League player look so uncomfortable in possession of the football and his crossing ability is dreadful ? he never puts balls in with any pace on and it's as if knocking it anywhere in the box is a success just as long as it doesn't go behind the goal!
Compared to Baines he's 2-3 divisions below. Yes, he's committed but so what, that's the very least we should expect!
I've never seen a Premier League player look so uncomfortable in possession of the football and his crossing ability is dreadful ? he never puts balls in with any pace on and it's as if knocking it anywhere in the box is a success just as long as it doesn't go behind the goal!
Compared to Baines he's 2-3 divisions below. Yes, he's committed but so what, that's the very least we should expect!
The funny thing is, Ian, is that Baines may be good going forward, but he can be dodgy at the back; Hibbert isn't as good as Baines going forward, but he is a far better defender.
Well it's a shame he's not 3 inches taller and a CB then!
Baines can be dodgy at the back as can every defender including Hibbert (especially when he dives in) but Hibbert offers absolutely nothing going forward ? has he ever even got an assist?
Being a RB in a top 8 team surely you have to do more than be able to defend a bit!
Baines can be dodgy at the back as can every defender including Hibbert (especially when he dives in) but Hibbert offers absolutely nothing going forward ? has he ever even got an assist?
Being a RB in a top 8 team surely you have to do more than be able to defend a bit!
Actually I think Hibbo in the Carsley role is a great suggestion.
I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but I'd genuinely like to see it tried.
I honestly think one of the reasons it worked so well with Cars is that he didn't have a big ego.
I seem to remember him, when being praised, saying something about 'I just break up play then give it to those (Grav or Arteta) who can pass better than me'.
Hibbo strikes me as a similar type of feller in some ways.
Not someone known for his ego, a team player and someone who I believe can/will stick to a task.
And I'd probably worry less about his distribution than I do now.
Just give him the brief - sit in front of the defense, make a nuisance of yourself, break up the play and when you win the ball, give it and support the midfield when we're attacking.
Plus, knowing there are men behind him, I believe might give him a bit more confidence, rather than when he gets skinned now having to take ALL the shite (COUGH!!-offmesometimes).
Anyway, I honestly like the suggestion, imo it shows more imagination than.........no I'll leave it.
I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but I'd genuinely like to see it tried.
I honestly think one of the reasons it worked so well with Cars is that he didn't have a big ego.
I seem to remember him, when being praised, saying something about 'I just break up play then give it to those (Grav or Arteta) who can pass better than me'.
Hibbo strikes me as a similar type of feller in some ways.
Not someone known for his ego, a team player and someone who I believe can/will stick to a task.
And I'd probably worry less about his distribution than I do now.
Just give him the brief - sit in front of the defense, make a nuisance of yourself, break up the play and when you win the ball, give it and support the midfield when we're attacking.
Plus, knowing there are men behind him, I believe might give him a bit more confidence, rather than when he gets skinned now having to take ALL the shite (COUGH!!-offmesometimes).
Anyway, I honestly like the suggestion, imo it shows more imagination than.........no I'll leave it.
Personally I have never slated Hibbo or Osman but it really makes me smile at the article and comments. These two players must be the most criticised players apart from Victor Anichebe over the past seasons. If they get regular runs in the team and we lose a game they will become scapegoats all over again.
Hibbert has been a great servant for the club. His tackling is excellent, he can be fast and he doesn't make silly mistakes. Yes, there's been a few last ditch tackles which got him sent off but they often happen because someone else has made a mistake and he's the last man back due to his pace.
Watching us over the last few seasons, Hibbert rarely hoofs it aimlessly like Neville and Jagielka. Yes, he is limited but that sometimes has it's benefits in a defender if they only want to pass it sideways or give it to other people. Lastly on him, I find it grossly insulting to say he's a League One player. It's simply unnecessary to say things like that.
On Osman, I am always amazed that people are surprised he might be our creative force. His goal and assist haul up until around 2 seasons ago was very good indeed. He has nearly always scored more than Arteta and the stats on Osman put those on Pienaar to shame. I think he's a superior player to Pienaar. His weaknesses are his lack of pace and strength yet he looked to be coping well at the weekend. He has been unlucky because he's played centre midfield, left and right wing and in the hole behind the striker. This means he's ended up as Jack of all trades, Master of none which is unfortunate and not a fair reflection.
Watching us over the last few seasons, Hibbert rarely hoofs it aimlessly like Neville and Jagielka. Yes, he is limited but that sometimes has it's benefits in a defender if they only want to pass it sideways or give it to other people. Lastly on him, I find it grossly insulting to say he's a League One player. It's simply unnecessary to say things like that.
On Osman, I am always amazed that people are surprised he might be our creative force. His goal and assist haul up until around 2 seasons ago was very good indeed. He has nearly always scored more than Arteta and the stats on Osman put those on Pienaar to shame. I think he's a superior player to Pienaar. His weaknesses are his lack of pace and strength yet he looked to be coping well at the weekend. He has been unlucky because he's played centre midfield, left and right wing and in the hole behind the striker. This means he's ended up as Jack of all trades, Master of none which is unfortunate and not a fair reflection.
I've always rated Osman as an attacking centre mid. The game's moved on though and his small stature is less effective in this position in the Premier League. He gives his all and he's a useful player to have.
Hibbo is not good enough in my opinion. He defends well when one-on-one but he gets lost with crosses into our box. His crossing has improved but the forwards aren't expecting a decent ball to be put in so don't gamble on it. As for threatening the box... well, the less said. A good pro though and one to show the youngsters that there is a career for local boys.
Hibbo often has to hoof because the (centre) midfield haven't been putting in a shift. His distribution is poor but midfield havent been passing and moving.
#4 Hibbert is not a better defender than Baines, at all.
Hibbert WAS a good defender but isn't anymore. Against Newcastle, he regularly got turned inside out by that fantastic talented winger.. Jonas Gutierrez; oh wait..
His defending on the back post has always been poor even when he was a half-decent defender.
He is hopeless on the ball and people clamour for him at centre-half when we're short on numbers. He looks worse there! Attackers can come at him from three different ways instead of just one at right back and he is even more vulnerable.
At right back he is a mistake/red card waiting to happen and at centre back he is a mistake/own goal waiting to happen.
Can't fault his effort and has been a great servant but I'm afraid that is not enough and anyone who thinks it is clearly lacks ambition.
If we want to be up there challenging for Europe then he shouldn't be anywhere near the first team,
All his supporters ask yourself this, which other Premier League teams would be starting him game after game the way we are now??
Injuries is not an excuse either as we have better players on the bench who should be in midfield and then Neville moves to right back.
Hibbert WAS a good defender but isn't anymore. Against Newcastle, he regularly got turned inside out by that fantastic talented winger.. Jonas Gutierrez; oh wait..
His defending on the back post has always been poor even when he was a half-decent defender.
He is hopeless on the ball and people clamour for him at centre-half when we're short on numbers. He looks worse there! Attackers can come at him from three different ways instead of just one at right back and he is even more vulnerable.
At right back he is a mistake/red card waiting to happen and at centre back he is a mistake/own goal waiting to happen.
Can't fault his effort and has been a great servant but I'm afraid that is not enough and anyone who thinks it is clearly lacks ambition.
If we want to be up there challenging for Europe then he shouldn't be anywhere near the first team,
All his supporters ask yourself this, which other Premier League teams would be starting him game after game the way we are now??
Injuries is not an excuse either as we have better players on the bench who should be in midfield and then Neville moves to right back.
Osman has played really well recently and his skill levels have always been good. Its his strength and being a bit lightweight that sometimes lead to him going missing in games at times.
Hibbert has done well also recently, coming in to a struggling team after being on the bench cannot be easy.
Carsley did a good and important job in central midfield but those kind of players are very much overrated imo. Breaking up attacks and giving it simple should be simple for any kind of decent midfielder who reads the game well.
Plus others like Jageilka and Heitinga have failed to do a good job when asked to play midfield so I don't see why Hibbert would fair any better.
It's attacking midfield players with a little craft and who are also able to drive forward into opponents' penalty areas that we need imo.
The number of defenders and defensive midfielders on the pitch at the end of the last couple of games has shown that more defensive-minded players are not needed, just some work on keeping clean sheets that has over the last couple of seasons been our strength.
Moyes himself has said the team lacks creativity, more so now with the injuries, but what he does or can do about it remains to be seen. I for one don't want to see the club linked with more defenders or defensive players come the close season.
Hibbert has done well also recently, coming in to a struggling team after being on the bench cannot be easy.
Carsley did a good and important job in central midfield but those kind of players are very much overrated imo. Breaking up attacks and giving it simple should be simple for any kind of decent midfielder who reads the game well.
Plus others like Jageilka and Heitinga have failed to do a good job when asked to play midfield so I don't see why Hibbert would fair any better.
It's attacking midfield players with a little craft and who are also able to drive forward into opponents' penalty areas that we need imo.
The number of defenders and defensive midfielders on the pitch at the end of the last couple of games has shown that more defensive-minded players are not needed, just some work on keeping clean sheets that has over the last couple of seasons been our strength.
Moyes himself has said the team lacks creativity, more so now with the injuries, but what he does or can do about it remains to be seen. I for one don't want to see the club linked with more defenders or defensive players come the close season.
I think we need to do a huge clear out in the summer. I mean this with all sincerity by the way.
The manager as lost the players completely. I don't see any feasible way he can get them back on his side.
He assembled the team with the soul intention of trying to win trophies, and to get in to the champions league and breed success that way..turning the club's fortune for the better.
Instead the players he bought under this illusion to win things, all they see is players he once bought that strengthened the team have been sold, and absolutely no one coming into replace them.
Id be mighty pissed off as a player too and no doubt so would you!
We had a young, apparently ambitious manager, offered a chance to take us to the big time, but stabbed repeatedly in the back by a compulsive lying chairman.
When it comes right down to it, we need to sell these players in the summer. Because I just can't see them ever being happy in a blue shirt again...they where repeatedly lied to, they have seen their team mates being sold right in front of their eyes..despite the fact they where bought to strengthen a team that was going to win things...yet what they really got, was a half assed team that is barely any better than some of the teams below us!
The manager as lost the players completely. I don't see any feasible way he can get them back on his side.
He assembled the team with the soul intention of trying to win trophies, and to get in to the champions league and breed success that way..turning the club's fortune for the better.
Instead the players he bought under this illusion to win things, all they see is players he once bought that strengthened the team have been sold, and absolutely no one coming into replace them.
Id be mighty pissed off as a player too and no doubt so would you!
We had a young, apparently ambitious manager, offered a chance to take us to the big time, but stabbed repeatedly in the back by a compulsive lying chairman.
When it comes right down to it, we need to sell these players in the summer. Because I just can't see them ever being happy in a blue shirt again...they where repeatedly lied to, they have seen their team mates being sold right in front of their eyes..despite the fact they where bought to strengthen a team that was going to win things...yet what they really got, was a half assed team that is barely any better than some of the teams below us!
Andrew James - Hibbert is absolutely shite. He can't pass, he can barely run and has too left feet..most players skin him alive..a great servant to the club? We should have got shut of the lad years ago.
How is Hibbert a red card waiting to happen? How many times has he been send off? From the top of my head I can only remember two red cards for him, away at Newcastle for two bookings and het got that one form Clattenburg.
There could be more but then again, he's a defender who's been playing for over a decade for this club.
When we all complain about all these mercenaries in the game etc. isn't the alternative local lads who never complain and always give all they have?
There could be more but then again, he's a defender who's been playing for over a decade for this club.
When we all complain about all these mercenaries in the game etc. isn't the alternative local lads who never complain and always give all they have?
Just want to add we should have got shut of Hibbo when he lost the ability to defend (half decently). I am not disputing he wasn't a half good defender..he just wasn't quality or in truth what we needed, but because Moyse knew better..kept him along with the now rapidly improving osman since his position has been switched.
Regardless, he is shite now and we should never ever fall back on his services..crikey id go through the reserves first than put him on the field these days.
Regardless, he is shite now and we should never ever fall back on his services..crikey id go through the reserves first than put him on the field these days.
Rob Young - not when they have become as bad as Hibbert..definitely not a chance.
Never thought i'd see the day when we have a mini Ossie/Hibbo love in on here!
It's one of the worst things in football for me, when you see supporters slag off a home grown player who spends his entire career at one club. It doesn't just happen at Everton, I hear about it all over. It's a shame because the likes of Ossie and Hibbo are part of the life blood of our club and fuckwits like you campbell and hollister are too stupid to understand this.
Both of these players have played in whatever positions they've been asked to play and have never complained. You never hear about them in trouble or demanding a pay rise. They've been a credit to our club where as some of the "fans" who continually slag them off make us look bad.
Both of these players have played in whatever positions they've been asked to play and have never complained. You never hear about them in trouble or demanding a pay rise. They've been a credit to our club where as some of the "fans" who continually slag them off make us look bad.
These two may not be world class, but they are better than most of the dross in the prem and have made a carreers out of qualifying for Europe.
The superstars are injured, the boys are back and worra ya know . .we are climbing the league again.
Moyes has moved away from the "carsley type" he prefers a deep lying playmaker like Arteta and Fellaini to come and take the ball from defenders these days - it cuts out the hoofball-
I think this thread pretty much sums up the wide range of opinions voiced on this site. only yesterday we had a thread complaing about defenders playing in Midfield, today we have this one advocating it.
Fair play
The superstars are injured, the boys are back and worra ya know . .we are climbing the league again.
Moyes has moved away from the "carsley type" he prefers a deep lying playmaker like Arteta and Fellaini to come and take the ball from defenders these days - it cuts out the hoofball-
I think this thread pretty much sums up the wide range of opinions voiced on this site. only yesterday we had a thread complaing about defenders playing in Midfield, today we have this one advocating it.
Fair play
Well said John Gee '#19. It was'nt that long ago that everyone was clamouring "Hibbert for England". Remember ? No he's no longer that good but he gives his all and still has something to offer. I'm pleasantly surprised by Osman's resurgence even though he tends to tire towards the end of games. As someone else has already said....they're NOT mercenaries just here for the cash.
How many times has he actually been sent off? He is a red card waiting to happen is he? why? history doesn't suggest this.
How many penalties has he given away?
I know he won one with his dive and then Saha missed it last season.
Look at the figures this year, not sure if it was this site or another, 50% of our conceeded goals have come from the left side, the remaining 50% split between the middle and the right, with a higher percentage from the middle.
He is nowhere near as bad a passer as posters here suggest. I purposely watch him closely and counted 2 misplaced passes on Saturday and a number of decent crosses.
In answer to a question above, yes he has had assists, none this year possibly but he has hardly played but he deffinitely had some last season.
Ossie is a player that either plays really good or really bad, unfortunately there isn't an inbetween for him that's why he is either praised or then absolutely slated.
Hibbert is the best tackler in the league in my opinion, as the art of tackling is going out of the game.
How many penalties has he given away?
I know he won one with his dive and then Saha missed it last season.
Look at the figures this year, not sure if it was this site or another, 50% of our conceeded goals have come from the left side, the remaining 50% split between the middle and the right, with a higher percentage from the middle.
He is nowhere near as bad a passer as posters here suggest. I purposely watch him closely and counted 2 misplaced passes on Saturday and a number of decent crosses.
In answer to a question above, yes he has had assists, none this year possibly but he has hardly played but he deffinitely had some last season.
Ossie is a player that either plays really good or really bad, unfortunately there isn't an inbetween for him that's why he is either praised or then absolutely slated.
Hibbert is the best tackler in the league in my opinion, as the art of tackling is going out of the game.
I've slated Hibbert and Osman on here and at Goodison where at times they have both been terrible. I also admire the pair of them as they are clearly only in this for the football, which I respect more than anything else in the game.
I also like that both have consistently improved throughout their careers, anybody who witnessed the amount of dangerous crosses Hibbo put in last week will know what I'm talking about.
Osman has also looked a good foil for Baines on the left while dictating the tempo and flow of our game for quite a while now, probably since B'ham away, barring the odd missed game.
Hibbert in centre mid is a step too far for me as I can barely stomach Neville there who is a better passer.
One thing that I think gets forgotten about Hibbert is the huge amount of admiration and goodwill towards him from the Goodison faithful, for every cross that sails over the bar, there is a through a brick wall tackle that always get's a loud roar of approval, if you doubt this watch what happens if he ever scores or when he returns to the club after his retirement.
Leon has mostly played off the left so I don't see how his current form proves anything other than he's in good form. My biggest moan about Leon is that on his day he's excellent, off his day he's anonymous, if he were more consistent he'd be a fan favourite, but he isn't so he's not.
I also like that both have consistently improved throughout their careers, anybody who witnessed the amount of dangerous crosses Hibbo put in last week will know what I'm talking about.
Osman has also looked a good foil for Baines on the left while dictating the tempo and flow of our game for quite a while now, probably since B'ham away, barring the odd missed game.
Hibbert in centre mid is a step too far for me as I can barely stomach Neville there who is a better passer.
One thing that I think gets forgotten about Hibbert is the huge amount of admiration and goodwill towards him from the Goodison faithful, for every cross that sails over the bar, there is a through a brick wall tackle that always get's a loud roar of approval, if you doubt this watch what happens if he ever scores or when he returns to the club after his retirement.
Leon has mostly played off the left so I don't see how his current form proves anything other than he's in good form. My biggest moan about Leon is that on his day he's excellent, off his day he's anonymous, if he were more consistent he'd be a fan favourite, but he isn't so he's not.
We know they are rarely going to set the stage alight but they give 100% for the cause and players see that and it can then motivate them to lift their game too.
Both Hibbert & Osman have been execellent servants to the club, they are both very well paid, and do their best when required.
But please dont start putting them above their station.
But please dont start putting them above their station.
John Gee, nice to see you resorting to abuse. Why does it matter that Tony Hibbert is a local lad? Should he play regardless then? I have never said that he's a mercenary or anything, I'm just saying that if Everton want to win anything then he shouldn't be anywhere near the team and I don't think that he's a premiership player... no need to shit your pants about it and get personal (which incidentally isn't a sign of intelligence seeing as you mention fuckwits and too stupid).
Tony Waring Hibbert for England was about 10 years ago and even then was never gonna happen... Hibbert has been loyal - can anyone ever recall a bid or even a rumoured bid for him!
I like Osman as our 12th/13th man just think that he's a bit lightweight at times and gets brushed off the ball too easily!
Andrew James - Hibbert just looks bad because of his pace, come on!
Tony Waring Hibbert for England was about 10 years ago and even then was never gonna happen... Hibbert has been loyal - can anyone ever recall a bid or even a rumoured bid for him!
I like Osman as our 12th/13th man just think that he's a bit lightweight at times and gets brushed off the ball too easily!
Andrew James - Hibbert just looks bad because of his pace, come on!
The problem with Hibbert is that he is like a one leg-man jumping around when it comes to his skills other than tackling he reminds me of a under-18 player. Osman is a bit better, but he is too weak and you can just blow him away when he goes on runs. Not to mention he is right footed and that is a problem every time he tries to run down the left side to make a cross, he has to stop and turn, otherwise his cross will go far off target.
There was a topic about reserves on ToffeeWeb that got me thinking, we are now fielding a reserve side in my opinion, we could have used Yobo, Yakubu, Vaughan and Wallace now, I just can't believe that Moyes would be this stupid, he had to know that there would be injuries or that many players would need time to get back to form. It is bad decision-making, which quite frankly has happened many times this season when it comes to tactics and substitutions too. I just hope we survive this year and don't get relegated because of it.
The fact they are local lads seems to give them a free ride with some fans.
If it was two foreign players on our right hand side in the Chelsea cup final, the masses would be screaming for their heads after the way they performed. I realise now though that because their local, its ok?!
Being a scouser and working harder doesn't qualify you as a good player otherwise we'd all be on everton's books.
If it was two foreign players on our right hand side in the Chelsea cup final, the masses would be screaming for their heads after the way they performed. I realise now though that because their local, its ok?!
Being a scouser and working harder doesn't qualify you as a good player otherwise we'd all be on everton's books.
As for red cards, at least 3 -Newcastle, Liverpool and Sigma Olomouc!
None due to fighting or anything malicious just poor defensing/decision making!
None due to fighting or anything malicious just poor defensing/decision making!
Luke
are you a new fan ?
are you a new fan ?
I dont know about others but give me quality over a hard working local anyday of the week.
These players are pro's and 15 grand+ a week should at least entitle the club and fans hardwork and effort.
Neville for instance is a manc, so do people here think he tries any less for this reason? I dont and expect every player who pulls on the clubs shirt to give a hundred percent and be able to offer other qualities as well.
To many players get by on the he works hard tag imo, this is the Premier League were a first touch, control and being able weight a pass should come as standard.
When players are getting a game without having these basic footballing skills then surely we have to ask questions?
I have always believed and will continue to believe that hard work and effort are a given at Everton F.C and not something that should be praised.
These players are pro's and 15 grand+ a week should at least entitle the club and fans hardwork and effort.
Neville for instance is a manc, so do people here think he tries any less for this reason? I dont and expect every player who pulls on the clubs shirt to give a hundred percent and be able to offer other qualities as well.
To many players get by on the he works hard tag imo, this is the Premier League were a first touch, control and being able weight a pass should come as standard.
When players are getting a game without having these basic footballing skills then surely we have to ask questions?
I have always believed and will continue to believe that hard work and effort are a given at Everton F.C and not something that should be praised.
I don't see why recognising effort and loyalty shows lack of ambition. I would replace Hibbo with a better RB in a heartbeat if we had the money and we were in a transfer window, but as we don't and we're not I don't see why I can't praise his effort (albeit partnered with average ability) without being accused of lacking ambition.
Not sure why he is a walking red card. 2 red cards (Premiership) in nearly 200 appearances (10 year career).
A little bit off topic, but if you look up the players with the most career Premiership red cards you will find that 3 players share the honour with 8 red cards. 2 of the 3 are ex-Everton players. Big Dunc and Richard Dunne.
COYB
Not sure why he is a walking red card. 2 red cards (Premiership) in nearly 200 appearances (10 year career).
A little bit off topic, but if you look up the players with the most career Premiership red cards you will find that 3 players share the honour with 8 red cards. 2 of the 3 are ex-Everton players. Big Dunc and Richard Dunne.
COYB
Dave, depends what you mean by "new fan"
In terms of contributing to this site, yes i'm new, i've only recently started to add comments and have written 3 articles in the last month that you may have read.
However if you mean a new everton fan, then no. I'm 21 and have a season ticket and have been going the game for the past 15 years. I was at Wembley for the final and was close to the pitch on our right hand side to watch a very poor, at the time, Malouda tear Hibbert apart. Hibbert was shocking that day.
In terms of contributing to this site, yes i'm new, i've only recently started to add comments and have written 3 articles in the last month that you may have read.
However if you mean a new everton fan, then no. I'm 21 and have a season ticket and have been going the game for the past 15 years. I was at Wembley for the final and was close to the pitch on our right hand side to watch a very poor, at the time, Malouda tear Hibbert apart. Hibbert was shocking that day.
Luke Hibbert wasn't fully fit that day and was carded unfairly and left with absoultely no cover from an unfit Osman.
Everyone goes on and on about Hibbert in that final but the last I checked we weren't losing when he was withdrawn.
Why also, all the following games since the final, have Chelsea failed to beat us if Hibbert is so crap?
Everyone goes on and on about Hibbert in that final but the last I checked we weren't losing when he was withdrawn.
Why also, all the following games since the final, have Chelsea failed to beat us if Hibbert is so crap?
Karl
I hear what you are saying, but if Hibbo is giving his all then you can't blame him because he's not world class. The fact that he continues to get picked is down to the manager and a lack of better options or money to replace. As long as when he's picked he tries his best then that's all that can be asked.
Also, you say that you "expect every player who pulls on the clubs shirt to give a hundred percent" but just because you expect it doesn't mean it happens regardless of what they get paid so why shouldn't Hibbo get some credit for the right attitude and application when players with twice his ability often don't turn up.
Point is we all know he's not world class and I'm sure we'd all like to replace him with a right sided version of Baines (or better) but we can't and Hibbo remains.
I hear what you are saying, but if Hibbo is giving his all then you can't blame him because he's not world class. The fact that he continues to get picked is down to the manager and a lack of better options or money to replace. As long as when he's picked he tries his best then that's all that can be asked.
Also, you say that you "expect every player who pulls on the clubs shirt to give a hundred percent" but just because you expect it doesn't mean it happens regardless of what they get paid so why shouldn't Hibbo get some credit for the right attitude and application when players with twice his ability often don't turn up.
Point is we all know he's not world class and I'm sure we'd all like to replace him with a right sided version of Baines (or better) but we can't and Hibbo remains.
Neil, the point is we have midfielders or even strikers warming the bench who could and should be playing. Neville would then move to right back, its more of a lack of ambition by the manager to be honest. He would rather have a no nonsense right back and Neville snapping at people in midfield than someone with a bit of footballing ability in midfield.
At the moment, against anyone with pace, he looks vulnerable and he will still throw the tackles in; cant fault him for that though. Just that means as he is getting older he is more suspectable to pace and therefore more likely to give aways fouls/ get carded. That is what i my by a red card waiting to happen.
At the moment, against anyone with pace, he looks vulnerable and he will still throw the tackles in; cant fault him for that though. Just that means as he is getting older he is more suspectable to pace and therefore more likely to give aways fouls/ get carded. That is what i my by a red card waiting to happen.
Tony, in how many of them games since then has Hibbert played though? I doubt it will be many.
We might not have been getting beat when he was on but the whole of the first 45 they overran us down that side. Their first came because Hibbert AND Osman both failed to stop the cross coming in.
You say about Hibbert distribution isn't that bad. I've last count of the number of home games recently where he has got forward down the right and then wasted an opening. So many times he has opted against a forward pass and gone back to Neville or Jags. Its hard to give it away when your going 5 yards backwards to someone in 20 yards of space.
He isn't good enough for our team; that should be the enough. Effort and hard work don't matter!! That should be a bare minimum for the money they all earn.
We might not have been getting beat when he was on but the whole of the first 45 they overran us down that side. Their first came because Hibbert AND Osman both failed to stop the cross coming in.
You say about Hibbert distribution isn't that bad. I've last count of the number of home games recently where he has got forward down the right and then wasted an opening. So many times he has opted against a forward pass and gone back to Neville or Jags. Its hard to give it away when your going 5 yards backwards to someone in 20 yards of space.
He isn't good enough for our team; that should be the enough. Effort and hard work don't matter!! That should be a bare minimum for the money they all earn.
Luke, isn't the game 90+ minutes anymore then?
"Its hard to give it away when your going 5 yards backwards to someone in 20 yards of space" - Still counts as a completed pass though, no matter how easier it is.
Obviously but my point was clearly that the time he was on the pitch he was awful. Player performance has nothing to do with the length of a match.
My objection is the fact he is doing this "easier" passes; when well placed in the oppostion half. He does this because he hasn't got the belief/ability to keep advancing or play a better pass.
If just completing passes was the name of the game then Arteta would be up for player of the season... Unfortunately we cannot afford the luxury of players just retaining possession. We don't make enough chances as it is, so we need to make the most of every opening we get.
My objection is the fact he is doing this "easier" passes; when well placed in the oppostion half. He does this because he hasn't got the belief/ability to keep advancing or play a better pass.
If just completing passes was the name of the game then Arteta would be up for player of the season... Unfortunately we cannot afford the luxury of players just retaining possession. We don't make enough chances as it is, so we need to make the most of every opening we get.
Tony Williams #34 presumably you support Everton so when talking about our record vs Chelsea since the final you should have known Hibbert playing was unlikely seeing as he's not a 1st team regular
A quick look at the matches shows
2010/11
FA Cup home - unused sub
FA Cup away - unused sub
League away - not in squad
2009/2010
League home - not in squad
League away - 90mins (3-3).
So in the 5 games since the final he has played 90mins, a good draw but from a defenders point of view we still conceded 3 goals and I don't recall his contributions to those we scored!
As for the view about we weren't losing when Hibbert was withdrawn thats a very myopic or even child like argument. How often have you know Moyes to withdraw a defender at HT for tactical reasons when we aren't losing - very rarely/never. It was obvious to all that he was our very very weak link!
100% effort - very little talent!
A quick look at the matches shows
2010/11
FA Cup home - unused sub
FA Cup away - unused sub
League away - not in squad
2009/2010
League home - not in squad
League away - 90mins (3-3).
So in the 5 games since the final he has played 90mins, a good draw but from a defenders point of view we still conceded 3 goals and I don't recall his contributions to those we scored!
As for the view about we weren't losing when Hibbert was withdrawn thats a very myopic or even child like argument. How often have you know Moyes to withdraw a defender at HT for tactical reasons when we aren't losing - very rarely/never. It was obvious to all that he was our very very weak link!
100% effort - very little talent!
For all the criticism of Tony Hibbert I would ask those posters to name better right backs in the Premier League right now.
IMO Hibbo has a weakness in losing concentration when crosses come in from the other side but besides that has only looked poor when Ossie is playing RW in front of him.
Overall I think he is as good a RB as any other Premier League RB except for Chelsea's two.
IMO Hibbo has a weakness in losing concentration when crosses come in from the other side but besides that has only looked poor when Ossie is playing RW in front of him.
Overall I think he is as good a RB as any other Premier League RB except for Chelsea's two.
Jesus wept... but seeing as you asked!
Rafael, Wes Brown, O Shea, Sagna, Zabaleta, Boateng, Luke Young, Kyle Walker, Ridgewell, Salgado, Ricketts, Johnson, Simpson/Perch, Wilkinson, Corluka, Hutton, Zubar, Foley... and many many more!
Rafael, Wes Brown, O Shea, Sagna, Zabaleta, Boateng, Luke Young, Kyle Walker, Ridgewell, Salgado, Ricketts, Johnson, Simpson/Perch, Wilkinson, Corluka, Hutton, Zubar, Foley... and many many more!
Childlike? Possible but definitely true though.
It was obvious that he received a harsh yellow and wasn't fully fit so that would be the reason why he was subbed, not the one cross that came over and led to a goal, where Lescott wasn't marking his man.
It was obvious that he received a harsh yellow and wasn't fully fit so that would be the reason why he was subbed, not the one cross that came over and led to a goal, where Lescott wasn't marking his man.
At the Final, I heard loads of fans moaning at half-time about how awful he had been, obviously you disagree which you're entitled to and I am also entitled to question your knowledge because I think that you're well off!
Osman has been probably our best player over the last 10 games or so. He has genuine skill and technique even if he is a bit lightweight and sometimes dallies too long.
Tony is a solid defender on his day but failry unremarkable. If he was playing in the Championship, I don't think many Premier League teams would be lining up to buy him. I think playing him at CM would be a bad idea. He can't pass and his control is pretty poor (unlike Carsley).
Tony is a solid defender on his day but failry unremarkable. If he was playing in the Championship, I don't think many Premier League teams would be lining up to buy him. I think playing him at CM would be a bad idea. He can't pass and his control is pretty poor (unlike Carsley).
Unbelievable disparity in views considering we are all supposedly supporters. In my view, John Gee sums it up. We have to get real that we have no money and so we are never going to have the best individuals until this changes but, in Hibbo and Ossie, we have true blues who give their all, and in my view are above average Premier League players in their respective roles. Too often they are scapegoats for unrealistic expectations.
However, having said that, I still believe and dream that we can win something if we keep the core of this squad together with players like Hibbo and Ossie in our squad. Often commentators say we punch above our weight and I believe it is by having good honest committed pros who give all to the cause like them that has achieved this.
Ian,
I'm not Hibbert's biggest fan but I would rather have him in Everton's team than about 13 of the players you mentioned.
I'm not sure how you can criticise Hibbert for a lack of quality with the ball and then go and name Hutton, Ridgewell or Zubar as players who are better. They make Hibbert look like Glen Hoddle.
I'm not Hibbert's biggest fan but I would rather have him in Everton's team than about 13 of the players you mentioned.
I'm not sure how you can criticise Hibbert for a lack of quality with the ball and then go and name Hutton, Ridgewell or Zubar as players who are better. They make Hibbert look like Glen Hoddle.
David,
Since 2006;
Hutton: 2 Goals 5 Assists
Zubar: 1 Goal 4 Assists
Ridgewell: 9 Goals 5 Assists
Hibbert: 0 Goals 3 Assists
Hutton and Zubar have played considerably less football as well. Hibbert has probably played more minutes than them two together; or it won't be much difference.
I agree Zubar and Ridgewell aren't the best on the ball. Ridgewell is awful, but he is a centre half and so is Zubar. Even out of postion they contribute more than Hibbert.
Hutton is injury prone but i'm sorry i'd have him over Hibbert anytime.
Since 2006;
Hutton: 2 Goals 5 Assists
Zubar: 1 Goal 4 Assists
Ridgewell: 9 Goals 5 Assists
Hibbert: 0 Goals 3 Assists
Hutton and Zubar have played considerably less football as well. Hibbert has probably played more minutes than them two together; or it won't be much difference.
I agree Zubar and Ridgewell aren't the best on the ball. Ridgewell is awful, but he is a centre half and so is Zubar. Even out of postion they contribute more than Hibbert.
Hutton is injury prone but i'm sorry i'd have him over Hibbert anytime.
Hibbert's been a much better defender than that lot though, his job is to defend. We all know he's poor going forward but he's been a great servant to the club down the years and not many players in the past have been able to get past him. He's past his best though in my opinion because he seems to have lost that extra yard of pace.
Ian's list is quite embarassing, O'Shea is rubbish, Salgado gets skinned all over the place, Kyle Walker? Perch? These aren't proven players, and I'm afraid players like Zabaleta aren't better than Hibbert defensively and why not get the stats up on that Rafael he's a liability making mistakes and getting sent off. How many crunching tackles do you see Corluka go into and Wilkinson? You're really having a laugh now! Sagna, Johnson and Hutton are about the only ones who are better full backs though.
Ian's list is quite embarassing, O'Shea is rubbish, Salgado gets skinned all over the place, Kyle Walker? Perch? These aren't proven players, and I'm afraid players like Zabaleta aren't better than Hibbert defensively and why not get the stats up on that Rafael he's a liability making mistakes and getting sent off. How many crunching tackles do you see Corluka go into and Wilkinson? You're really having a laugh now! Sagna, Johnson and Hutton are about the only ones who are better full backs though.
Luke, thanks for the stats, Zubar is a RB though (my dad is a wolves ST holder) and Ridgewell has played both CB and RB (Johnson and Dann were CB's last season and now Carr is RB).
Anthony.... my list is embarrassing?? -- I can understand you disputing some of them but Zabaleta, Rafael Corluka and O'Shea... Either you've lost the plot or Hibbo is one of your mates. Since when has making crunching tackles epitomised being a great defender? Just look at David Luiz at Chelsea!
My list isn't embarassing, the fact that Hibbert gets a game is embarrassing!
Anthony.... my list is embarrassing?? -- I can understand you disputing some of them but Zabaleta, Rafael Corluka and O'Shea... Either you've lost the plot or Hibbo is one of your mates. Since when has making crunching tackles epitomised being a great defender? Just look at David Luiz at Chelsea!
My list isn't embarassing, the fact that Hibbert gets a game is embarrassing!
How sad that mediocrity, at best, is being praised and exalted. Neither player would get a match (other than an odd run out in the League Cup), for any of the following:? Spurs, Liverpool, City, Chelsea, let alone Man U and Arsenal. I personally doubt they would get a game at Sunderland, Bolton, Stoke or Newcastle.
How easy it is to see average players rise when all around is poor. Don't kid yourselves, would either of these get a look-in for any good Everton side of the past? Moyes has assembled too many utility / journeymen so that the work ethic stands out rather than ability.
I haven't read every post on here but think Ossis has played well because, shock horror ? and this is radical thought ? he is playing in his natural position. He has no pace or strength to play out wide but has quick feet and can sometimes pick a pass. When Felli, Rodders and co aren't around, he can do a job.
Hibbert is not a DM though, how many times have we seen him caught way out of position when playing RB, what would he be like if he had to worry about the whole pitch not just the right hand side up to the half-way line!
Hibbert is not a DM though, how many times have we seen him caught way out of position when playing RB, what would he be like if he had to worry about the whole pitch not just the right hand side up to the half-way line!
Hibbert has done a hell of a lot more than most of that lot have. He's past his best, yes, and I will be the first to say he is often poor going forward but defensively he's been better than pretty much everyone on your list I'm afraid.
I've seen him play for Everton his whole career and only until the last season or two have players actually been able to get past him every now and again. I'm not convinced that players on your list would have coped anywhere near aswell defensively as Hibbert has with some of the fantastic players he has came up against down the years.
However, we do need a right back who is more attack minded to move forward, maybe Coleman will eventually fill that position.
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1 Posted 22/03/2011 at 19:22:06
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