The Mail Bag
Sunday League
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I watched yesterday's match and was astounded how we came away with such an easy win. I mean, I've never seen such a lack of footballing ability in my life ? truly shocking stuff from both sets of players!!
I know people will say "Stop being negative" but ffs we never strung more than four passes together the whole match!! We went in at half-time time 3-0 up by some wonderful goals; I thought to myself, "The game's won now, hopefully the guys will come out the second half and put on a footballing show..." But no: hoof the fucking ball constant kick it as far as you can and hope Beckford can get on the end of something... really was Sunday League stuff!!
Take into account that we had a number of first team players out, this does not excuse the fact at the total lack of basics at the club, fundamentals of pass an move. I've never felt so dissapointed after a 3-0 victory, I feel cheated that I had to sit and watch 90 minutes of hoofballs with 3 Premier League goals thrown in.
I've really had enough of football and Everton's style of play; if I want to watch that sort of shite football, I can go to the park every Sunday for free and watch it. Truly disappointed.
Sean McKenna, Posted 10/04/2011 at 11:16:28
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I would understand your frustrations if we had lost, but we didn't perform all that well but won the game, if you play not so good and win, isn't that a good sign of a makeshift team doing what was essential, and that is winning the game?
I'd take this game every time over the Villa game at their gaffe where we absolutely battered them and then lost.
Don't give a toss at this stage of the season as to how we win, just that we do win.
Andy, if you are not pleased by a 3-0 away win I honestly do feel for you.
One poster in a previous thread said that you have to gauge the manager on what he wins, looks like that doesn't work the other way for some people. It's a win, I am pleased that my team won the game. I would take 38 of those games in a season.
Don't give a toss at this stage of the season as to how we win, just that we do win.
Andy, if you are not pleased by a 3-0 away win I honestly do feel for you.
One poster in a previous thread said that you have to gauge the manager on what he wins, looks like that doesn't work the other way for some people. It's a win, I am pleased that my team won the game. I would take 38 of those games in a season.
Yes and Moyes won't change a winning team!
It's probably Hibbert's fault anyway...
Sean, stay away from any pills mate because if you are this depressed after a 3-0 away win I would suggest you don't watch the ManUre game on the 23rd if you want to go on living.
Sean, stay away from any pills mate because if you are this depressed after a 3-0 away win I would suggest you don't watch the ManUre game on the 23rd if you want to go on living.
Spot on Sean, the score disguises the performance. Expect tons of stick from the easily pleased.
If winning 3-0 away in the Premier League is 'easy to please...'
Take away most clubs' first three central midfielders, play a full back and a centre back there, and then win 3-0, and their fans might allow themselves to enjoy it. We on the other hand, seem to have a large section of ultra-masochists who refuse to enjoy anything.
Do yourselves a favour lads, find some perspective. In any game (in anything in life!) you'll be able to find some negative, but that doesn't mean you have to make a point of looking for it or dwelling on it, or that you have to focus on it and treat it as more important than the positive.
Go on, enjoy Everton winning, I dare you.
Take away most clubs' first three central midfielders, play a full back and a centre back there, and then win 3-0, and their fans might allow themselves to enjoy it. We on the other hand, seem to have a large section of ultra-masochists who refuse to enjoy anything.
Do yourselves a favour lads, find some perspective. In any game (in anything in life!) you'll be able to find some negative, but that doesn't mean you have to make a point of looking for it or dwelling on it, or that you have to focus on it and treat it as more important than the positive.
Go on, enjoy Everton winning, I dare you.
Sean... I don't disagree with you in so far as technically yesterday was shocking & at times our defending was awful. Overall, I thought it was a very strange game & Wolves could have scored a few as well.
BUT come on... it's a win in the sunshine that I just wasn't expecting, given our absentees & Wolves' normal ability to hold us to a draw.
So just enjoy it for what it was, eh.
Mick 4... He can't change it as we don't have any more fit players!
Have a day off.
Imagine if we won every game 4-0 playing like Barcelona. There would be no one at Goodison as there would be nothing to moan at.
Imagine if we won every game 4-0 playing like Barcelona. There would be no one at Goodison as there would be nothing to moan at.
Our biggest away win for four years, I know it wasn't all that impressive football wise, but I've seen worse when we have lost. We have no dosh Sean, get over it.
You can't believe some people can you. It wasn't the best display but, as others have pointed out, we have played a lot better in some games and come away empty handed. It was a makeshift squad due to injuries and we beat a team that has beaten most of the top six teams this season. We also got to blood some youngsters and kept a clean sheet.
At the end of the day, the history books will read Wolves 0, Everton 3, and that is all that really matters.
God, some people are hard to please. What do you expect, we had Pip and bloody Heitinga centre mid, it will be hard for us to dominate the game. I thought we played the perfect away performance, we hung in after the opening 20 and worked ourselves into the game. We won, stop bloody moaning and, with Cahill, Coleman and Arteta to return in the next few weeks, I think we're in for a top 6 place.
Andy Hegan. I've been watching the Blues since 1959... trust me I've seen some shit. None of us are too pleased with the performance, but we won for gods sake with a makeshift team... enjoy the moment. However, it may seem like shit. We are not backed by some billionaire. Just Moyesie and his players doing their best..
It was one of those strange games where almost every shot went in. We will quite probably never see Neville score again!! Our first attack and we scored a terrific goal, Osman's cross was great and so was Beckford's glancing header.
I have watched Wolves a few times and they have usually acquited themselves well but teams have scored a lot of great goals against them. Soooo... it looks like they will go down!!
I thought our football in the first quarter of an hour was atrocious... I actually turned the TV over and missed the first goal (I saw it later) because I thought we were going to get thumped!!
You forgot to mention the weather was too hot on Sunday and encouraged people to sit in the garden with a beer and relive Bily's screamer over and over again.
What would life be without you Sean, roll on the winter and the cold and the snow and then we can all truly enjoy being miserable together once again.
Did anyone watch the crap that Villa and the Geordies played today? Most of the Prem is crap so why get down on our minor players when they step up and take the points? Even Manure have been shit this season in many games, but thier fans know a win keeps momentum and momentum leads to a run that can include some form games.
How can anyone say we defended badly, I counted aleast 17 dead balls fired into our 6-yard area which between TH, Jags and Distin we dealt with along with superb blocks from Osman and Hibbo. Don't forget who Wolves have turned over or held this season at home, 7 senior players missing and 70+ degrees heat ? this was a great win.
It's always hard playing away at this stage of the season. Considering the injuries we have, I am delighted with the win.
Fuck me ? no wonder we're referred to as Bitter Blues.
Two threads this weekend entirely dedicated to 'How Shite Everton are' after a three-nil away win and 'How Shite Bily is' after a 25-yard screamer and a decent performance.
If any of the boys do ever take a peek at this site I bet they must think 'for fuck, fucking, fuck, fuckpig, fuckmother, fuck, fuck sakes'.
Two threads this weekend entirely dedicated to 'How Shite Everton are' after a three-nil away win and 'How Shite Bily is' after a 25-yard screamer and a decent performance.
If any of the boys do ever take a peek at this site I bet they must think 'for fuck, fucking, fuck, fuckpig, fuckmother, fuck, fuck sakes'.
How well did Man Utd play when they went there and lost 1-0?
Job done. Move on. We know we can, and will play better.
Just watch the highlights and enjoy three very good goals.
Job done. Move on. We know we can, and will play better.
Just watch the highlights and enjoy three very good goals.
Reminds me of the old Aussie joke:
Q: How do you know a plane load of Poms has landed?
A: The engines are switched off but you can still hear the whining.
Q: How do you know a plane load of Poms has landed?
A: The engines are switched off but you can still hear the whining.
Christ almighty... some of you really don't get it, It is not whinging, it is merely an observation. Sean makes some very valid points, that doesn't make him a bitter blue, merely a knowledgeable one who knows good football from bad and says it as he sees it. I've got to say I agree with him 100%, yep I'm obviously delighted with the result and am genuinely a happy Evertonian right now, but not necessarily a proud one.
Some fans are happy with results so they can be proud that their team is successful (see Chelsea), others may like to see good football and be proud to be associated with a good footballing team (see Arsenal). Others still would like both (see me).
It's not all or nothing, generally individuals place more importance on one thing than the other, results or good football, and this changes depending upon the occassion.
I personally prefer to watch good football in the hope that the more you play good football, the more you enjoy it and the more you tend to win over time. However, come the derby or a Cup Final and the result becomes more important to me.
There were 3 genuine moments of class in that match, and unbelievably every one resulted in a screamer, fantastic! But I believe the better football you play during the whole game then the more chances of seeing goals like that and winning more and more games, which I think is Sean's point.
Alternatively, you can be happy watching shite football most of the time and pray and hope that someone pulls a screamer out of their arse, but I don't think that is pretty realistic nor a recipe for success (However you define it) over a season or longer, see Bolton away etc. etc. etc.
Oh yeh, before I get the tired old response of..... but we had x players out..... we still had a team full of internationals out there and they should be able to pass the ball between themselves and not have to revert to hoofing it up the pitch at every opportunity. (Don't forget Bolton away etc etc etc either.)
This is where coaching and tactics come in... there endeth my rant!
Some fans are happy with results so they can be proud that their team is successful (see Chelsea), others may like to see good football and be proud to be associated with a good footballing team (see Arsenal). Others still would like both (see me).
It's not all or nothing, generally individuals place more importance on one thing than the other, results or good football, and this changes depending upon the occassion.
I personally prefer to watch good football in the hope that the more you play good football, the more you enjoy it and the more you tend to win over time. However, come the derby or a Cup Final and the result becomes more important to me.
There were 3 genuine moments of class in that match, and unbelievably every one resulted in a screamer, fantastic! But I believe the better football you play during the whole game then the more chances of seeing goals like that and winning more and more games, which I think is Sean's point.
Alternatively, you can be happy watching shite football most of the time and pray and hope that someone pulls a screamer out of their arse, but I don't think that is pretty realistic nor a recipe for success (However you define it) over a season or longer, see Bolton away etc. etc. etc.
Oh yeh, before I get the tired old response of..... but we had x players out..... we still had a team full of internationals out there and they should be able to pass the ball between themselves and not have to revert to hoofing it up the pitch at every opportunity. (Don't forget Bolton away etc etc etc either.)
This is where coaching and tactics come in... there endeth my rant!
Robbie #22. I completely agree that any professional footballer should have the ability to pass the ball around without having to regularly resort to hoofing the thing.
However, to claim that we had "a team full of internationals out there" is so wide of the mark it's not funny.
How many caps do Hibbert, Distin, Gueye, Osman and Beckford have between them? Baines and Jags are hardly first choice internationals. Johnny playing in a position he does not play for his country. Bily is Bily.
However, to claim that we had "a team full of internationals out there" is so wide of the mark it's not funny.
How many caps do Hibbert, Distin, Gueye, Osman and Beckford have between them? Baines and Jags are hardly first choice internationals. Johnny playing in a position he does not play for his country. Bily is Bily.
So the only regular international of any note, playing in his favoured position for us during the entire game, was Tim Howard... and he is always going to find it hard to inspire a slick passing move and joined up style of play from between the sticks.
Jamie, I think you'll find that Tim, Leighton, Jags, Pip, Bily, Johnny! That is 6 out of 11, more than half the team have represented their nation at full first team level.
Gueye also played in the under-21s and Mr Moyes believes Osman should be in the England squad.
I'll take it as a compliment to my post that that was your only reposte.
Gueye also played in the under-21s and Mr Moyes believes Osman should be in the England squad.
I'll take it as a compliment to my post that that was your only reposte.
I'm more than happy with a comfortable 3-0 away to the hardest working side in the league, particularly considering most of our best players are out injured!
Brazil don't always play like Brazil, if you know what I mean.
Brazil don't always play like Brazil, if you know what I mean.
Great post, Sean. It was an easy win even though we were awful for most parts of the game. Wolves fans were shell-shocked as the scoreline flattered us, to be honest.
But we have 3 points, crap football, but IMWT eh??
Was good to see some passion back from the players but still a lot of improvement to be done. Let's see how we get on against Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea... 4-5-0, maybe to hold out for a draw?
Maybe I'm being negative or maybe I believe that our team is good enough to beat these teams???
But we have 3 points, crap football, but IMWT eh??
Was good to see some passion back from the players but still a lot of improvement to be done. Let's see how we get on against Man Utd, Man City and Chelsea... 4-5-0, maybe to hold out for a draw?
Maybe I'm being negative or maybe I believe that our team is good enough to beat these teams???
"Christ almighty.... some of you really don't get it, It is not whinging, it is merely an observation"
No I think you will find that it is a whinge. "I've really had enough of football and Everton's style of play" That is not merely an observation in any language.
No I think you will find that it is a whinge. "I've really had enough of football and Everton's style of play" That is not merely an observation in any language.
If you can't get to the game, Everton matches are better on the radio than the telly anyway.
I thought it was a great away win ? glorious weather, the footy commentary on Radio Merseyside in my back garden, 3-0 up at half time, the horse racing, other footy matches in the afternoon.
As Tony @ #3 states I'd rather have a scrappy win than what happened away at Villa.
Saturday was one of the best ? if not the best ? days of the year.
I thought it was a great away win ? glorious weather, the footy commentary on Radio Merseyside in my back garden, 3-0 up at half time, the horse racing, other footy matches in the afternoon.
As Tony @ #3 states I'd rather have a scrappy win than what happened away at Villa.
Saturday was one of the best ? if not the best ? days of the year.
I'll take that every day over the dross that was served up at the beginning of the season: beautiful sideways passing at a snails pace from Arteta and Fellaini with no end product; Pienaar doing telegraphed backheels. Losing most games or drawing thanks to a few Cahill headers... but yes how good it was to watch.
Man U haven't played their best football this season yet they are going to win the league; any Arsenal fan will tell you it's not about looking good ? it's about winning. An injury crisis, we win 3-0 away with one of our goals of the season against a team fighting for its life and still people are moaning because there were a few long balls.
'for fuck, fucking, fuck, fuckpig, fuckmother, fuck, fuck sakes'.
Hey Paul, is that a quote from Tim Howard??
Soapy tit wank... easily pleased Murf!
Hey Paul, is that a quote from Tim Howard??
Soapy tit wank... easily pleased Murf!
Robbie #22 - I agree that these players should be able to do better at the basics of passing and moving but the internationals argument is a bit anorexic isn't it?
Tim Howard can't be included as he's a goalkeeper and despite the fact he's played for England we all know how limited Pip's passing is.
Interestingly the Wolves team (and I'm sure many in the Premiership) was also full of internationals (of a sort)
Hennessey - Wales
Foley - Ireland
Berra - Scotland
Guedioura - Algeria
Jarvis - England
Fletcher - Scotland
Milijas - Serbia
Add to that the following U21s as you seem to include Gueye:
Stearman - England U21
O'Hara - England U21
Kightly - England U21
Hammill - England U21
The fact that they fielded more "internationals" than us didn't make them play any better either. The standard of technical ability, apart from the goals, was poor, but I don't really go along with your 'internationals' argument. They should be better because they're pro footballers not because they are (or once were) internationals.
Tim Howard can't be included as he's a goalkeeper and despite the fact he's played for England we all know how limited Pip's passing is.
Interestingly the Wolves team (and I'm sure many in the Premiership) was also full of internationals (of a sort)
Hennessey - Wales
Foley - Ireland
Berra - Scotland
Guedioura - Algeria
Jarvis - England
Fletcher - Scotland
Milijas - Serbia
Add to that the following U21s as you seem to include Gueye:
Stearman - England U21
O'Hara - England U21
Kightly - England U21
Hammill - England U21
The fact that they fielded more "internationals" than us didn't make them play any better either. The standard of technical ability, apart from the goals, was poor, but I don't really go along with your 'internationals' argument. They should be better because they're pro footballers not because they are (or once were) internationals.
I'll take the 3 points and just hope the next match also brings the same haul, with the same quality goals, and perhaps a bit more entertainment on the football front.
COYB
Thanks Neil, and sorry to be picky Robbie #24, but doesn't that really make us a team HALF full of internationals?
And of the six players you name, one is a keeper and four are defenders... Not likely candidates to help us play sexy football.
And of the six players you name, one is a keeper and four are defenders... Not likely candidates to help us play sexy football.
OK guys, I'll concede that my flippent statement of a team full of internationals wasn't entirely accurate, but it is funny reading some of the apologistas arguing why top professionals can't pass a ball between themselves because they aren't internationals.
My son plays under 12 footy in a very competitve league here in Queensland and his team is what you might call 'of mixed ability'. The coach coaches them to play a certain way under directive from Football Queensland, which fortunately he actually believes in too, a la Arsenal. The coaching is fantastic and the improvement immense in only a couple of months, whilst it may not always come off it is starting to come off more and more as the season progresses. They've even had injuries to contend with and kids away on holiday, but still with only a squad of 15 available players they are getting better as individuals (despite limited ability) and more importantly as a team.
Now, this has been done without any money, without transfers and with some kids of limited ability. Also, all the other clubs have done the same and you can see the improvements at every game, startling improvements.
The under 15's at this level are truely superb after 3 years being coached and playing this way, some of the best football I've seen youths play, certainly better than I experienced in the UK anyway.
I just don't believe that 'nothing matters but the score line' should be Everton's new motto.
Some people prefer the destination, I personally prefer the journey, in the hope that the better the journey the better the final destination. It seems to have worked for me in life, I wouldn't swap Brisbane for anywhere (Except maybe Goodison on matchday)
My son plays under 12 footy in a very competitve league here in Queensland and his team is what you might call 'of mixed ability'. The coach coaches them to play a certain way under directive from Football Queensland, which fortunately he actually believes in too, a la Arsenal. The coaching is fantastic and the improvement immense in only a couple of months, whilst it may not always come off it is starting to come off more and more as the season progresses. They've even had injuries to contend with and kids away on holiday, but still with only a squad of 15 available players they are getting better as individuals (despite limited ability) and more importantly as a team.
Now, this has been done without any money, without transfers and with some kids of limited ability. Also, all the other clubs have done the same and you can see the improvements at every game, startling improvements.
The under 15's at this level are truely superb after 3 years being coached and playing this way, some of the best football I've seen youths play, certainly better than I experienced in the UK anyway.
I just don't believe that 'nothing matters but the score line' should be Everton's new motto.
Some people prefer the destination, I personally prefer the journey, in the hope that the better the journey the better the final destination. It seems to have worked for me in life, I wouldn't swap Brisbane for anywhere (Except maybe Goodison on matchday)
Hi Robbie
Your underlying point was a valid one and I certainly make no apologies for the inability of highly paid professional footballers to pass and move. I just feel that sometimes people use strange arguments with little substance to try and make their point more valid.
I too believe that there are institutional problems with the way we coach at grass roots level in this country, as is displayed on numerous occasions when England teams go up against weaker opposition, yet appear to have less technique and passing ability despite often having just enough quality to beat the lesser team.
We all want nice passing coupled with the quality of the goals from Saturday and I hope, some day, it will return consistently to our play. However, after the poor season we've had, every 3 points is welcome and my only remaining hope for this season is that it ends quickly and we finish as high up the table as possible.
Then comes the dreaded summer and who knows what will happen then, but it doesn't bode well.
COYB
Your underlying point was a valid one and I certainly make no apologies for the inability of highly paid professional footballers to pass and move. I just feel that sometimes people use strange arguments with little substance to try and make their point more valid.
I too believe that there are institutional problems with the way we coach at grass roots level in this country, as is displayed on numerous occasions when England teams go up against weaker opposition, yet appear to have less technique and passing ability despite often having just enough quality to beat the lesser team.
We all want nice passing coupled with the quality of the goals from Saturday and I hope, some day, it will return consistently to our play. However, after the poor season we've had, every 3 points is welcome and my only remaining hope for this season is that it ends quickly and we finish as high up the table as possible.
Then comes the dreaded summer and who knows what will happen then, but it doesn't bode well.
COYB
Once again the 'we have no money' shite is being trotted out.. .what the hell has the lack of finances got to do with the tactics of the current team..??
They are PROFESSIONAL footballers for fuck's sake and that by definition means they ALL should be able to pass the ball 10 yards to a team mate and NOT just hoof or slash it anywhere, especially when not under pressure... something we cannot do and do not do. If they cannot do the basics of passing and moving into space to support their team mate and not panicking when in possession, then why the fuck are they getting paid any money to play... never mind the extortionate amounts most of em (even in our team) get???
On Saturday, our inability to KEEP the ball, even when 3-0 up, was embarrassing and that's what caused us problems both before and after we scored 3 goals. And it happens week-in, week-out... that's got nothing to do with lack of cash.
And please, what the fuck is Anichebe all about??? How the fuck we have just offered this guy a NEW four-year deal is completely beyond my comprehension... What does he offer exactly??? ... A striker who NEVER poses a goal treat and finds it difficult to stay on his feet whenever tackled and who's fastest running speed is JOG ? embarrassing!!! At least the young Greek lad tried his best to close down opposition defenders and made attempts to chase possible lost causes.
If we have no cash then surely we should not be wasting what little there is available on decisons like this... Unbelieveable!
They are PROFESSIONAL footballers for fuck's sake and that by definition means they ALL should be able to pass the ball 10 yards to a team mate and NOT just hoof or slash it anywhere, especially when not under pressure... something we cannot do and do not do. If they cannot do the basics of passing and moving into space to support their team mate and not panicking when in possession, then why the fuck are they getting paid any money to play... never mind the extortionate amounts most of em (even in our team) get???
On Saturday, our inability to KEEP the ball, even when 3-0 up, was embarrassing and that's what caused us problems both before and after we scored 3 goals. And it happens week-in, week-out... that's got nothing to do with lack of cash.
And please, what the fuck is Anichebe all about??? How the fuck we have just offered this guy a NEW four-year deal is completely beyond my comprehension... What does he offer exactly??? ... A striker who NEVER poses a goal treat and finds it difficult to stay on his feet whenever tackled and who's fastest running speed is JOG ? embarrassing!!! At least the young Greek lad tried his best to close down opposition defenders and made attempts to chase possible lost causes.
If we have no cash then surely we should not be wasting what little there is available on decisons like this... Unbelieveable!
Neil, here is one good scenario about how finances has an effect on tactics on Saturday.
Hibbert, who cost nothing, gets the ball from Howard, who cost about £3.5 mil. Looks up and sees Neville, who cost £4.5 mil, ahead of him in midfield, he is in midfield because we do not have anyone else to replace Arteta, Pienaar or Fellaini... because we have no money.
Now Neville is meandering about not moving into space because he is not really a midfielder but a right back. Hibbert, who cost nothing, looks further up the field and sees Beckford, who cost nothing from two leagues below, and wonders, "If I belt this to him, will he trap it?" because he knows his control isn't the best. He looks around again, sees Heitinga, who cost £6 mil, who again is a defender in midfield; Gueye, a million pound youngster; Ossie, a freebie; and our most expensive player on the field at £9 mil, Bily, who we all know has his limitation about showing for the ball in space.
What does Hibbert do?
Now we take a look at Chelski:
David Luiz, undisclosed fee but you can bet it's not a small one, gets the ball from Cech, £7 mil, and looks up and sees Ramires, ?22 mil, a midfielder, Mikel £16 mil, a midfielder, Lampard £11 mil 10 years ago, a midfielder; and Malouda, £13 mil also a midfielder, and all moving and making space and looks further up and sees Drogba, £24 mil and Torres, £50 mil. Do you think the same worries are going through Luiz's head about passing to a player that are going through Hibbert's?
Hibbert, who cost nothing, gets the ball from Howard, who cost about £3.5 mil. Looks up and sees Neville, who cost £4.5 mil, ahead of him in midfield, he is in midfield because we do not have anyone else to replace Arteta, Pienaar or Fellaini... because we have no money.
Now Neville is meandering about not moving into space because he is not really a midfielder but a right back. Hibbert, who cost nothing, looks further up the field and sees Beckford, who cost nothing from two leagues below, and wonders, "If I belt this to him, will he trap it?" because he knows his control isn't the best. He looks around again, sees Heitinga, who cost £6 mil, who again is a defender in midfield; Gueye, a million pound youngster; Ossie, a freebie; and our most expensive player on the field at £9 mil, Bily, who we all know has his limitation about showing for the ball in space.
What does Hibbert do?
Now we take a look at Chelski:
David Luiz, undisclosed fee but you can bet it's not a small one, gets the ball from Cech, £7 mil, and looks up and sees Ramires, ?22 mil, a midfielder, Mikel £16 mil, a midfielder, Lampard £11 mil 10 years ago, a midfielder; and Malouda, £13 mil also a midfielder, and all moving and making space and looks further up and sees Drogba, £24 mil and Torres, £50 mil. Do you think the same worries are going through Luiz's head about passing to a player that are going through Hibbert's?
Any argument involving "highly paid professional footballers should be able to..." has to adequately respond to the fact that there are highly paid professional footballers trying to stop them from doing it.
You could maybe add in the stress/pressure of thousands watching, money at stake, minute detailed analysis and such things. These players are incredible when it doesn't matter, but an actual, real match with everyone watching and where everything matters doesn't bring out the best in a player's technique.
You could maybe add in the stress/pressure of thousands watching, money at stake, minute detailed analysis and such things. These players are incredible when it doesn't matter, but an actual, real match with everyone watching and where everything matters doesn't bring out the best in a player's technique.
Tony, you are absolutely right........... Rooney (Who cost nothing) passes to Gerrard (Who cost nothing) to Beckham (Who cost nothing) who finds Owen (Who cost nothing) to McManaman (Who cost nothing) to Carragher (Who cost nothing)
Everton's would be Baines (Who cost £5 million) to Billy (Who cost £10 million) to Neville (Who cost £4.5 million) to the Top Balcony (That cost £1 million)........
Everton's would be Baines (Who cost £5 million) to Billy (Who cost £10 million) to Neville (Who cost £4.5 million) to the Top Balcony (That cost £1 million)........
Robbie, which team is that? England? I didn't realise they played in the Premier League... let alone get special dispenation from other teams to allow THEIR players to play for them..
Tony, I'll explain it in simple turns just for you because, like Mr Moyes, you completely fail to see what is in front of you unless it is spelt out.
All the players listed came through their respective local teams' youth systems and played (with the notable exception granted of Mr Rooney) the bulk if not all their playing career with their home team and thus cost nothing.
Your obsession with how much players cost and then directly linking this to their ability and then to a team's ability to play good football and win matches so shortsighted it is untrue.
It is coaches that make teams, not individual players that cost £x or y millions; no wonder you are a Moyes apologist, you can't see the wood for the trees.
All the players listed came through their respective local teams' youth systems and played (with the notable exception granted of Mr Rooney) the bulk if not all their playing career with their home team and thus cost nothing.
Your obsession with how much players cost and then directly linking this to their ability and then to a team's ability to play good football and win matches so shortsighted it is untrue.
It is coaches that make teams, not individual players that cost £x or y millions; no wonder you are a Moyes apologist, you can't see the wood for the trees.
Ok Robbie, which team has won the league with a cheap striker?
They came through their youth team respective youth teams, So what? I can guarantee with 100% certainty that the "team" they played in surrounded them with expensive players.
Look out, you are trying to peek around that Oak searching for a tree.
They came through their youth team respective youth teams, So what? I can guarantee with 100% certainty that the "team" they played in surrounded them with expensive players.
Look out, you are trying to peek around that Oak searching for a tree.
Robbie...couldn't have put it better myself and Tony if you think you have to spend millions to win trophies then I'll throw this one at you....
Valdes (who cost nothing) to Pique (who cost £5 mil) to Puyol (who cost nothing) to Busquets (who cost nothing) to Xavi (who cost nothing) to Iniesta (who cost nothing) to Pedro (who cost nothing) to Bojan (who cost nothing) to Messi (who cost nothing)....the list goes on...all of whom play for a coach who plays the game the right way, keeps the ball, dominates possesion and subsequently smashes every fuckin team they come up against because EVERY player works their bollocks off for the team....not a hoofball to be seen ANYWHERE...!!
Coaches determine the style and pattern of play not how much the players cost....keep the fuckin ball and we wont go far wrong....FACT
Valdes (who cost nothing) to Pique (who cost £5 mil) to Puyol (who cost nothing) to Busquets (who cost nothing) to Xavi (who cost nothing) to Iniesta (who cost nothing) to Pedro (who cost nothing) to Bojan (who cost nothing) to Messi (who cost nothing)....the list goes on...all of whom play for a coach who plays the game the right way, keeps the ball, dominates possesion and subsequently smashes every fuckin team they come up against because EVERY player works their bollocks off for the team....not a hoofball to be seen ANYWHERE...!!
Coaches determine the style and pattern of play not how much the players cost....keep the fuckin ball and we wont go far wrong....FACT
To Alves, who cost ?30M, to Carreira, who cost ?13.5M, on to Abidal, who cost ?15M euro, upto Mascherano, who cost £22M and finally to their striker Villa, who cost ?40M ? more than our starting XI on that day cost. Or are you suggesting that those mentioned above play on their own and are that good don't need eleven of them?
Tony, I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree here, but I will answer your questions.
Everton won the league in 1987 with Wayne Clarke up front if memory serves me well when we had Sharp injured. He wasn't quick or spectacular in any way shape or form, but he held the ball well and was an outstanding finisher. Our dearly beloved neighbors came very close a couple of times with ascertain Michael Owen, how much did Anelka cost Arsenal when he first won the title with them?
Arsenal haven't spent big for 5 or so years, but they are always there or ther a bouts, play great football and even their reserves have battered us on a number of occasions, all down to coaching and wanting to play football a certain way, an entertaining way, a beautiful way, an effective way and a winners way, a way I believe in and a lot of other middle aged fans still believe in. We are NOT Wimbledon, we are Everton FC, we need to return to our core values now that Mr Moyes has steadied the ship, thanks but time to move on and get someone in who can take us past the level of mediocracy and mid table ignominy via hoof ball and negativity to someone progressive, with vision, a strategy, positivity and a belief in playing the beautiful game beautifully.
Everton won the league in 1987 with Wayne Clarke up front if memory serves me well when we had Sharp injured. He wasn't quick or spectacular in any way shape or form, but he held the ball well and was an outstanding finisher. Our dearly beloved neighbors came very close a couple of times with ascertain Michael Owen, how much did Anelka cost Arsenal when he first won the title with them?
Arsenal haven't spent big for 5 or so years, but they are always there or ther a bouts, play great football and even their reserves have battered us on a number of occasions, all down to coaching and wanting to play football a certain way, an entertaining way, a beautiful way, an effective way and a winners way, a way I believe in and a lot of other middle aged fans still believe in. We are NOT Wimbledon, we are Everton FC, we need to return to our core values now that Mr Moyes has steadied the ship, thanks but time to move on and get someone in who can take us past the level of mediocracy and mid table ignominy via hoof ball and negativity to someone progressive, with vision, a strategy, positivity and a belief in playing the beautiful game beautifully.
"Arsenal haven't spent big for 5 or so years" And haven't won anything in those 5 or so years either. Their last trophy was the FA Cup in 2005 and the last League title was in 2004. Not the best example really is it. From 2006 their major signings have been Rosicky, Denilson, Fabianski, Da Silva, Sagna, Diarra, Ramsey, Nasri, Arshavin & Vermaelan to the tune of over £60m
The fact is, you cannot discount money as a reason for teams doing well/poorly.
You can quote all the home grown names you want at me but the fact is unless you have XI of them in a team, there will always be a highly paid star in the squad of a winning side.
All these managers that play expansive creative football in the premiership are either a) Arsne Wenger or b) close to being relegated.
There are no other teams in the Premier League that are good to watch, technical football wise. Blackpool are good for a laugh with their plucky attacking ways but are undone because there are no "big" players in their teams and for all the attacking football (I actually think Everton have scored about the same amount of goals) they are about a point above the relegation zone.
A manager can have all the visions in the world but if your players cannot do a simply thing like look for and get into space to receive a pass, then he is pretty much screwed on that vision...... unless he can get better players, either by luck through the academy or by paying huge amounts of money for established better players.
The World Record transfer fee in 1987 was Gullit to Milan for £6m, Liverpool's broke the English Club record fee for Beardsley at a whopping £1.9m, it's hardly comparable is it? We weren't called the Mersey Millionaires for nothing.
The fact is, you cannot discount money as a reason for teams doing well/poorly.
You can quote all the home grown names you want at me but the fact is unless you have XI of them in a team, there will always be a highly paid star in the squad of a winning side.
All these managers that play expansive creative football in the premiership are either a) Arsne Wenger or b) close to being relegated.
There are no other teams in the Premier League that are good to watch, technical football wise. Blackpool are good for a laugh with their plucky attacking ways but are undone because there are no "big" players in their teams and for all the attacking football (I actually think Everton have scored about the same amount of goals) they are about a point above the relegation zone.
A manager can have all the visions in the world but if your players cannot do a simply thing like look for and get into space to receive a pass, then he is pretty much screwed on that vision...... unless he can get better players, either by luck through the academy or by paying huge amounts of money for established better players.
The World Record transfer fee in 1987 was Gullit to Milan for £6m, Liverpool's broke the English Club record fee for Beardsley at a whopping £1.9m, it's hardly comparable is it? We weren't called the Mersey Millionaires for nothing.
Hang on a second Tony, is that $60 million Net spend????????
I'm pretty sure Arsenal have raked in a lot of money during that 6 year period to offset that amount, but I won't profess to know the details.
I stated in my response that Arsenal were there or thereabouts, I never claimed they had won anything, they've come a damn site closer than us though, qualified for the champions league every year and play fantastic football. Do you honestly think that wouldn't change if Moyes and Round went to Arsenal, they'd be out the door in 3 months.
No one has ever discounted money for teams doing well or not, of course it is a major influence, all we are saying is it is not the be all and end all. We have some great players, Arteta, Cahill, Fellaini, Saha, Baines, Jags and yet even when they were all fit we have generally been shite, playing shite football and guess what, getting shite results too. There is only 1 reason for that, Moyes, not money.
I'm pretty sure Arsenal have raked in a lot of money during that 6 year period to offset that amount, but I won't profess to know the details.
I stated in my response that Arsenal were there or thereabouts, I never claimed they had won anything, they've come a damn site closer than us though, qualified for the champions league every year and play fantastic football. Do you honestly think that wouldn't change if Moyes and Round went to Arsenal, they'd be out the door in 3 months.
No one has ever discounted money for teams doing well or not, of course it is a major influence, all we are saying is it is not the be all and end all. We have some great players, Arteta, Cahill, Fellaini, Saha, Baines, Jags and yet even when they were all fit we have generally been shite, playing shite football and guess what, getting shite results too. There is only 1 reason for that, Moyes, not money.
There or thereabouts? And if my Auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle.
One reason is Moyes? So the players are exempt from blame then? Arteta is exempt from stinking out the place, Beckford is exempt from missing absolute howlers, Saha is exempt for being lazy. I could go through the whole team here but no, it's all Moyes fault, he is the one who tells Beckford to twat it instead of placing it.
I am not excusing Moyes at all, they are all to blame, what this "apologist" is saying, is that it's all their fault. The problem with the "anti Moyes moaners" is that you see it as black and white, he picks the team so it is definitely his fault, yet the players who have consistently let him down this season get away scott free.
And getting back to the money aspect, the two teams that has won the premier since 2005, have they been among the biggest spenders? It's a simple equation, and now Man City are spending big and surprise surprise they are fighting for a Champions League spot. Unfortunately it is pretty much the be all and end all of this league, that's why football is not as exciting to watch as it was in the 80's. The players you mention above, our record signing was for £15m (with staggered payments) The teams completing for titles spend that amount on a right back.
As before he team team, really worth watching and play attractive footy is Arsenal and they have won nothing for 6 years. There is even grumblings from their fans against Wenger now.
One reason is Moyes? So the players are exempt from blame then? Arteta is exempt from stinking out the place, Beckford is exempt from missing absolute howlers, Saha is exempt for being lazy. I could go through the whole team here but no, it's all Moyes fault, he is the one who tells Beckford to twat it instead of placing it.
I am not excusing Moyes at all, they are all to blame, what this "apologist" is saying, is that it's all their fault. The problem with the "anti Moyes moaners" is that you see it as black and white, he picks the team so it is definitely his fault, yet the players who have consistently let him down this season get away scott free.
And getting back to the money aspect, the two teams that has won the premier since 2005, have they been among the biggest spenders? It's a simple equation, and now Man City are spending big and surprise surprise they are fighting for a Champions League spot. Unfortunately it is pretty much the be all and end all of this league, that's why football is not as exciting to watch as it was in the 80's. The players you mention above, our record signing was for £15m (with staggered payments) The teams completing for titles spend that amount on a right back.
As before he team team, really worth watching and play attractive footy is Arsenal and they have won nothing for 6 years. There is even grumblings from their fans against Wenger now.
As you mentioned above we will agree to disagree and I will not be posting further on this thread, as it seems we are too entrenched in our own ways.
Tony, I admire your support of David Moyes and I appreciate your points, the game nowadays is probably 90% if not more about money and there is no doubt the more you have the better you inevitably will be. Chelsea and the like effectively take an insurance policy out to get an injury and suspension free season by buying 2 world class players for every position, we obviously can't do that. I really hope your faith in Moyes is rewarded, I just don't see the leopard changing it's spots and it's just not my cup of tea.
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1 Posted 10/04/2011 at 14:59:14
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