The Mail Bag
If the shirt fits?
Comments (70)
I was recently reading an article in the Guardian website about the first openly homosexual footballer in Europe since Justin Fashanu. He plays in the Swedish second division or something, and because his dad was former red, Glen Hysen, it?s a bit of a big deal over there.
Now one detail I noticed was that no footballers would front the FA's anti-homophobia video campaign. This to me is a real pity. Most of the people I know couldn?t give a rat?s arse what anyone else got up to in the bedroom. It really is ridiculous that, in this day and age, footballers still have to keep this kind of thing a secret.
Don?t you think some of Everton?s players should agree to help this campaign? If nothing else, it would show that this club is forward-thinking and progressive. Moreover, it would be the right thing to do. Plus I imagine we?re probably struggling to get rid of a number of pink shirts, so it could work out commercially too. I?d be interested to know what anyone else thinks.
Gavin McGarvey, Posted 16/04/2011 at 02:12:08
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You're probably right Rob. I certainly wouldn't want to needlessly expose the players to ridicule. On the other hand it would show that they had guts if they could stand up for something they believed in (assuming they are against homophobia).
It's a good idea as we can financially benefit from increased sales of pink shirts?
No thanks, Gavin. I've no objection to anyone's sexuality per se but I see no reason why we should champion the gay cause. Nor should they be verbally abused incidentally but they choose their way of life ? whatever the psychologists and sexperts say ? so let them get on with it. To hell with selling more pink shirts... Everton's colour is royal blue.
Quite a decent post mate until the pink bit, not all gays parade around in pink. You can see why a gay player wouldn't want to come out, the vile chants they would get would be ridiculous.
Mike (#5) ? Beat me to it!
Gavin, I think you answered your own post! Even 'jokingly' insinuating that homosexual people wear pink is in itself a remark that would prevent them from "coming out"... you've provided an example as to why they wouldn't want to!
Personally... couldn't care less.
Dealing with the "PC Brigade" is a whole different animal in which there is no such thing as a "sense of humour" ? be it sexuality, race, colour and creed, religion...
Let's be honest, us scousers have been on the receiving end of insults for years, but we take it light-heartedly as we don't take ourselves too seriously. Unfortunately, there's not many people who share our ability to laugh at ourselves...
Gavin, I think you answered your own post! Even 'jokingly' insinuating that homosexual people wear pink is in itself a remark that would prevent them from "coming out"... you've provided an example as to why they wouldn't want to!
Personally... couldn't care less.
Dealing with the "PC Brigade" is a whole different animal in which there is no such thing as a "sense of humour" ? be it sexuality, race, colour and creed, religion...
Let's be honest, us scousers have been on the receiving end of insults for years, but we take it light-heartedly as we don't take ourselves too seriously. Unfortunately, there's not many people who share our ability to laugh at ourselves...
Exactly Mike (5), if you want to make progress you have to destroy people's preconceptions. Reinforcing cliches is not the way forward. But there is something seriously wrong with attitudes towards homosexuality in football in this country especially. I think that football has gone a long way to promoting and educating people on racial issues, so why hasn't it happened with sexuality? It's a much bigger subject than people think - bigger than football itself, you could argue. Oh, now I've done it....
Matteo,
Nothing's bigger than football mate, have a word!
Nothing's bigger than football mate, have a word!
You're right Stephen. What was I thinking?
I think Phil Neville would be ideal.
Some of Everton's players would be ideal, bunch of overpaid faggots.
I would be very proud to see Everton championing such a cause. Whether it be sexuality, racism, class discrimination (not religion though, I think ALL religions are inherintly vile, although I guess I wouldn't want to see people being oppressed due to their creed, they're all just as stupid as each other).
If Everton were to recieve a lot of flak from other supporters for their stance on such an issue, I wouldn't care. It would satisfy me to feel 'better' than the others.
If Everton were to recieve a lot of flak from other supporters for their stance on such an issue, I wouldn't care. It would satisfy me to feel 'better' than the others.
I'm a Christian and as such reject the term "homophobia" entirely; to disapprove of something my religion describes as vile and evil is not a psychiatric condition, as the term "phobia" would infer. Rather, it's a conscientious objection.
I would be strenuously opposed to Everton (or any other club for that matter) supporting a cause that is immoral, despite the longstanding political agenda to foist it upon western society. This is a matter that for centuries / millennia has been rejected as perverse, yet now it's suddenly as if every one of our ancestors up until this generation was living in the Dark Ages. Not so.
The entire Gay Agenda is politically motivated and is part of the same social engineering game-plan as feminism, "free love", and various other stratagems designed to undermine the family unit as the basis of a healthy and stable society. The objective being a wholly secularised, propagandised, state-dependent Orwellian hell whose morality is entirely subject to the decrees of those in power. It makes it so much easier to control the masses when there is no independent moral Absolute (i.e. God) in place, as has been proven by the examples of Soviet Russia, China, amongst others.
I would be strenuously opposed to Everton (or any other club for that matter) supporting a cause that is immoral, despite the longstanding political agenda to foist it upon western society. This is a matter that for centuries / millennia has been rejected as perverse, yet now it's suddenly as if every one of our ancestors up until this generation was living in the Dark Ages. Not so.
The entire Gay Agenda is politically motivated and is part of the same social engineering game-plan as feminism, "free love", and various other stratagems designed to undermine the family unit as the basis of a healthy and stable society. The objective being a wholly secularised, propagandised, state-dependent Orwellian hell whose morality is entirely subject to the decrees of those in power. It makes it so much easier to control the masses when there is no independent moral Absolute (i.e. God) in place, as has been proven by the examples of Soviet Russia, China, amongst others.
What rights have been suspended for gay people? There are single sex marriages, they can adopt etc and it doesn't affect these footballers from earning an obscene amount of money.
What tolerance should we show, and why is there a campaign for it? Why are they different to the heterosexual players who get abused week-in, week-out?
Kevin Davies gets the old "you fat bastard" every time he plays against us, should we get an anti-fat campaign going?
Why bring this issue to the foreground, it's an everyday way of life for millions of people and I would suspect a lot would just look at the campaign and think, "Why?"
What tolerance should we show, and why is there a campaign for it? Why are they different to the heterosexual players who get abused week-in, week-out?
Kevin Davies gets the old "you fat bastard" every time he plays against us, should we get an anti-fat campaign going?
Why bring this issue to the foreground, it's an everyday way of life for millions of people and I would suspect a lot would just look at the campaign and think, "Why?"
Jay #13
It sickens me when people use a book such as the Bible to justify their disgusting beliefs. The idea that people have no choice but to be a homophobe because they are Christian or Muslim or whatever is literally the most pathetic idea I have ever heard. There are intelligent Christians and then there are bigots.
Do you really think Jesus would agree with you? Or would he actually tell you to open your tiny mind?
It sickens me when people use a book such as the Bible to justify their disgusting beliefs. The idea that people have no choice but to be a homophobe because they are Christian or Muslim or whatever is literally the most pathetic idea I have ever heard. There are intelligent Christians and then there are bigots.
Do you really think Jesus would agree with you? Or would he actually tell you to open your tiny mind?
Jimmy, the book that justifies my disgusting beliefs is Razzle.
A religious nut complaining about something being propagandised and controlling the masses?
Such irony.
Such irony.
Whatever consenting hetero, homo, metro, whatever that is, or bi adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is for them to choose and of no matter to me. I can't help but find disconcerting public displays of sexual intimacy exhibited by members of the above groups. Can anyone suggest an appropriate box that I belong in other than one labelled relics of the time when sexuality was a private affair?
He's hardly a religious nut.
@ Jimmy Hacking: I won't be lectured to about Jesus from a person who doesn't know Him or what his Word says about deviants.
"I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortur." (Daniel J Boorstin, American historian and author)
"Theological religion is the source of all imaginable follies and disturbances; it is the parent of fanaticism and civil discord; it is the enemy of mankind." (Voltaire)
"Theological religion is the source of all imaginable follies and disturbances; it is the parent of fanaticism and civil discord; it is the enemy of mankind." (Voltaire)
Jimmy (15) gets my vote. I can't tell if some of the comments on here are supposed to be ironic, as they are so narrow-minded and offensive they can't possibly be serious. Guys, life's what you make it.
Here's a good article on the player Gavin referred to in his original post.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timfranks/2011/03/a_mans_game.html
Posts 13 & 18 - spot on IMO. Your sexuality is a private matter and should not be on display for others.
#12 agreed
Tony, Post 24: agreeing with posts 13 and 18 is missing the point. The issue here is not public displays of affection, that has no relevance to the issue here in the OP.
I also agree with Chris (12), it would be a proud moment to be associated with such a forward-thinking club. I get the feeling it is unlikely to happen, but I'll be very happy to be proved wrong.
I also agree with Chris (12), it would be a proud moment to be associated with such a forward-thinking club. I get the feeling it is unlikely to happen, but I'll be very happy to be proved wrong.
Oh go on, someone mention Hitler!
What was it my mam used to say about empty vessels?
Tony Waring (4) you say..
"But they choose their way of life ? whatever the psychologists and sexperts say".
Presumably in Tonyland women wearing short skirts are 'asking for it', the unemployed just don't WANT to work, prisons are like 'bloody holiday camps' and you're not racist but..
Seriously, listen to yourself.
No evidence, no research, just the alehouse know-fuck all mouthpiece, givin' it loads.
(Like Viz magazine's 'Bloke in the pub ? questions answered by Britain's most ill-informed man')
But if I'M wrong and full of shite etc ? evidence please.
You also say 'Your sexuality shouldn't be on display' but you don't MEAN that.
What you mean is THEIR sexuality shouldn't be on display (or am I wrong ? again ? and you actually DO get all worked up if you see a feller and his girlfriend holding hands or kissing?)
General question:? Why is it that when we (humans) don't know or understand something, our pre-set appears to be aggressive 'know-alliness', rather than 'I'm afraid I don't really know a lot about the subject'?
James Brand (6) tells us how the 'PC Brigade' have no sense of humour and people should take it in good spirit... like us Scousers.
WTF!?
Let me tell you, James, the Scousers I know would have punched Boris Johnson's fucking lights out if given the chance (nb: as would I).
I DON'T take jokes about thieving, lazy Scousers 'light-heartedly' (nb: and think 'Billy and Wally' are a pair of cunts)
Many a comedian telling 'Paki' jokes in the 70s defended himself with "it's only a joke"...
Bollocks!
It wasn't JUST a joke, it was millions of jokes that made it a little bit easier for some lunatic to put dog-shit or petrol through the letterbox of some terrified Pakistani family.
The same people who say it's 'PC gone mad' were saying the same shite when it became unacceptable to use the word 'nigger' in the cavalier way previous generations did (Richard Littlejohn has a LOT to answer for!)
Football SHOULD address ANY issue involving hate and the sooner those who fight against it and whine about THEIR 'freedom' (nb: to denigrate others) are gone from football grounds, the better... imo.
As for the 'Christian' post (13) fairly sure it's a piss-take... (But if it's not, I live at 667 ? I'm the next-door neighbour of the beast, so fuck you!)
Tony Waring (4) you say..
"But they choose their way of life ? whatever the psychologists and sexperts say".
Presumably in Tonyland women wearing short skirts are 'asking for it', the unemployed just don't WANT to work, prisons are like 'bloody holiday camps' and you're not racist but..
Seriously, listen to yourself.
No evidence, no research, just the alehouse know-fuck all mouthpiece, givin' it loads.
(Like Viz magazine's 'Bloke in the pub ? questions answered by Britain's most ill-informed man')
But if I'M wrong and full of shite etc ? evidence please.
You also say 'Your sexuality shouldn't be on display' but you don't MEAN that.
What you mean is THEIR sexuality shouldn't be on display (or am I wrong ? again ? and you actually DO get all worked up if you see a feller and his girlfriend holding hands or kissing?)
General question:? Why is it that when we (humans) don't know or understand something, our pre-set appears to be aggressive 'know-alliness', rather than 'I'm afraid I don't really know a lot about the subject'?
James Brand (6) tells us how the 'PC Brigade' have no sense of humour and people should take it in good spirit... like us Scousers.
WTF!?
Let me tell you, James, the Scousers I know would have punched Boris Johnson's fucking lights out if given the chance (nb: as would I).
I DON'T take jokes about thieving, lazy Scousers 'light-heartedly' (nb: and think 'Billy and Wally' are a pair of cunts)
Many a comedian telling 'Paki' jokes in the 70s defended himself with "it's only a joke"...
Bollocks!
It wasn't JUST a joke, it was millions of jokes that made it a little bit easier for some lunatic to put dog-shit or petrol through the letterbox of some terrified Pakistani family.
The same people who say it's 'PC gone mad' were saying the same shite when it became unacceptable to use the word 'nigger' in the cavalier way previous generations did (Richard Littlejohn has a LOT to answer for!)
Football SHOULD address ANY issue involving hate and the sooner those who fight against it and whine about THEIR 'freedom' (nb: to denigrate others) are gone from football grounds, the better... imo.
As for the 'Christian' post (13) fairly sure it's a piss-take... (But if it's not, I live at 667 ? I'm the next-door neighbour of the beast, so fuck you!)
Even the media would indirectly mock and ridicule... Say a player comes out as gay! What would be on the front and back page of the papers? You guessed it, personally each to their own, it's their business, but the media and their irresponsible ways of broadcasting will create hysteria around this player.
Until more follow and it then becomes the norm, it will take 3 or 4 very brave players to "come out" and then it's less of a taboo subject.
Eugene 28, good post made.
Jay Woods, I am also a Christian and agree with you completely. It is utterly pointless to engage with the numerous correspondents above whose hatred of the Saviour and all He teaches tells us much more about them than Him. Psalm 14:1; 1 Cor 18. I shan't return to this thread as I know the abuse and hatred that will follow - for those of you who seriously believe that your ancestors are monkeys, please look here, with an open mind, if you are capable: www.creation.com
Sings.
"Now I'm the king of the swingers..."
"Now I'm the king of the swingers..."
Wow! I'd given up on toffeeweb as being humourless and miserable but in the last week we've had two really funny threads, firstly the one with the depressive pseudo leftish intellectuspeak and now we have this bit of genius comedy.
To those Christians in the the thread, presumably you don't believe in the Norse gods, the Roman, Aboriginal, Hindu etc gods. That means I only believe in one less god than you, and then there's Alan Ball. OMG! does that mean I'm not an atheist any more?
Jeez, I'm agreeing with Eugene Ruane:? Agree with the criticisms of Tony Waring (4), that there is no evidence that being gay is a lifestyle choice, you either is or you ain?t.
I?ve just finished reading about Molly Houses, which were 18th Century gay bars (BTW I?m not gay-I?m not even happy), at the time, you could get hung for sodomy; they lived in terror of being discovered. Alan Turing, who was the father of computer science, committed suicide because he prosecuted under the old sodomy laws; Britain lost one of the greatest scientists that we have ever produced.
That said, I watch football to get away from the grief of the world; wars, famine, credit crunch etc and I don?t think it?s football?s business to sort out a fucked-up prejudiced world (although conversely football is a mirror of society).
Perhaps the way forward is the path black footballers had to travel; appalling abuse, and let?s be honest we all stood by and watched it (John Barnes and bananas, anyone?) and now no-one gives a flying fuck what colour, creed or nationality a footballer is as long as when he puts the shirt on he?s gives his all.
Maybe start with a slogan:? There?s no such thing as a black, catholic or gay footballer there?s only good ones and bad ones.
I?m off to the match. COYB
Good post Eugene, thanks for that read. I'm still staring in disbelief at Brian's though!
In the worlds before Monkey, primal chaos reigned. Heaven sought order. But the phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown. The four worlds formed again and yet again, as endless aeons wheeled and passed. Time and the pure essences of Heaven, the moisture of the Earth, the powers of the Sun and the Moon all worked upon a certain rock, old as creation. And it became magically fertile. That first egg was named "Thought". Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, "With our thoughts, we make the World". Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch. From it then came a stone monkey. The nature of Monkey was irrepressible!
Nice one Eugene. I love it how the Christians accuse US of hate (ie. Brian Hill #31) yet they are the hateful bastards who condemn homosexuals AND women AND condone slavery (if you disagree you haven't read your bible, Jesus gives some interesting instructions on how to treat your slaves).
I'm happy to let the Christians and Muslims, Hindus etc. go on believing in their fairies if they so wish, but the absolute arrogance to assume you KNOW better than everyone else with zero evidence, and then to try and FORCE your biggoted, dangerous views on others is an absolute crime in my opinion. Literally. They should do jail time for that sort of shit.
I'm happy to let the Christians and Muslims, Hindus etc. go on believing in their fairies if they so wish, but the absolute arrogance to assume you KNOW better than everyone else with zero evidence, and then to try and FORCE your biggoted, dangerous views on others is an absolute crime in my opinion. Literally. They should do jail time for that sort of shit.
By the way creation.com isn't even interesting let alone persuasive. If you got even average grades at school you can easily debunk any of these so called "facts" in your sleep.
This thread defies belief.
For starters we have an avowed Christian projecting a hate-filled diatribe, followed by a creationist encouraging us to overlook the irrefutable, multiply-verified evidence detailing human ancestry.
Question to Brian Hill: Where in the Bible does it mention dinosaurs? Second: Maybe you can open YOUR mind and examine the mitochondrial DNA, and shared genetic history of humans and apes, before attesting that we DO NOT share 95% of our genes.
As for Jay Woods: I've never seen such a tawdry, poisonous post on this site before.
You claim homosexuality is "immoral". Can you define how a loving same-sex relationship, conducted by two law-abiding people can be "perverse?" If it transpired that Dixie Dean was gay, would you regard him as "vile & evil"?
Let's talk about your "independent moral Absolute." ? Any proof?
Is it okay for me to frame my worldview around the teachings of Zeus, Ra, Baal, Wotan or Thor? (Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?)
You're clinging to Bronze age mythology, that conveniently does not provide ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT, to justify animosity, intolerance & prejudice. You ignore the fact that the self-appointed custodians of The Great Beyond, had a controlling agenda themselves, and have for millenia explioted people's (irrational) fear of death, to submit to their word, control & authority.
The game's up. Reason won.
For starters we have an avowed Christian projecting a hate-filled diatribe, followed by a creationist encouraging us to overlook the irrefutable, multiply-verified evidence detailing human ancestry.
Question to Brian Hill: Where in the Bible does it mention dinosaurs? Second: Maybe you can open YOUR mind and examine the mitochondrial DNA, and shared genetic history of humans and apes, before attesting that we DO NOT share 95% of our genes.
As for Jay Woods: I've never seen such a tawdry, poisonous post on this site before.
You claim homosexuality is "immoral". Can you define how a loving same-sex relationship, conducted by two law-abiding people can be "perverse?" If it transpired that Dixie Dean was gay, would you regard him as "vile & evil"?
Let's talk about your "independent moral Absolute." ? Any proof?
Is it okay for me to frame my worldview around the teachings of Zeus, Ra, Baal, Wotan or Thor? (Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?)
You're clinging to Bronze age mythology, that conveniently does not provide ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT, to justify animosity, intolerance & prejudice. You ignore the fact that the self-appointed custodians of The Great Beyond, had a controlling agenda themselves, and have for millenia explioted people's (irrational) fear of death, to submit to their word, control & authority.
The game's up. Reason won.
What an amazing thread. Toffeeweb really is astounding.Two good posts from Eugene and Tony J.
Thanks for the replies. In response to those who pointed out the inadvisability of the pink shirt comment, fair enough, in hindsight it was a bit of a stupid thing to say, but it wasn?t meant to be too serious. I don?t really think all homosexuals like the colour pink, and neither did I say that the players should ?parade? in the shirts, whatever that means.
I do think this issue is important, if for no other reason than homosexual footballers at the minute have to more or less pretend that they are heterosexual. That?s not right, and if the positions were reversed, would you like to have to pretend every day, for your job, that you were homosexual?
I don?t think it?s very helpful to bring morality into this in terms of whether it?s right or wrong to be gay. Also the OP isn?t about public displays of affection, and I don?t think this is relevant to the issue, which is what the club (and other clubs) should be doing to stop homophobia in football.
I do think this issue is important, if for no other reason than homosexual footballers at the minute have to more or less pretend that they are heterosexual. That?s not right, and if the positions were reversed, would you like to have to pretend every day, for your job, that you were homosexual?
I don?t think it?s very helpful to bring morality into this in terms of whether it?s right or wrong to be gay. Also the OP isn?t about public displays of affection, and I don?t think this is relevant to the issue, which is what the club (and other clubs) should be doing to stop homophobia in football.
"The Bible assures us that there is a time for ever purpose under Gods Heaven. A time to laugh, a time to cry, a time to mourn......and there is a time to DANCE!"
Kevin Bacon....Footloose,1984.
Maybe he should have finished that little speech with ........"and there is a time for everyone to have their own opinion and to be entitled to it just as long as they don't try to force it upon others who have a different opinion".
I was raised as a Catholic but, as far as I am concerned, if there is a God then he/she/it has far more explaining to do than any of us ever will.
Kevin Bacon....Footloose,1984.
Maybe he should have finished that little speech with ........"and there is a time for everyone to have their own opinion and to be entitled to it just as long as they don't try to force it upon others who have a different opinion".
I was raised as a Catholic but, as far as I am concerned, if there is a God then he/she/it has far more explaining to do than any of us ever will.
The word "parade" was meant as in the preconception that gays wear pink and skip around as camp as a row of tents; it wasnt intended as a pop at you, mate.
Yeah we've definately strayed from the main point of the OP.
So just to re-clarify, if Everton chose to get involved in an anti-homophobia campaign, I would say that it is a very noble thing to do.
So just to re-clarify, if Everton chose to get involved in an anti-homophobia campaign, I would say that it is a very noble thing to do.
How people can be gullible enough to believe in God, yet smart enough to be Evertonians, is beyond me!!
So far the only hateful words about homosexuals, or any other thing for that matter, have come from the god squaders... it's no wonder agnostics/atheists are on the rise!!!!
So far the only hateful words about homosexuals, or any other thing for that matter, have come from the god squaders... it's no wonder agnostics/atheists are on the rise!!!!
It's encouraging to read so many people challenging homophobia. We've thankfully come along way from the "No dogs, no blacks, no Irish" era and confined racism to the bin, which sees homophobia as one of the last refuges of the bigot. From the outright bile of Jay Woods to the sanctimonious snidery of Dick Fearon and all the shades of hatred in between.
For a religion founded under persecution and open to everyone (except the queers) but whose main man hung around exclusively with a gang of men following the Hellenistic model established by openly homosexual Alexander of the Great. For them to persecute others never fails to amuse me. But when has independent thought ever been part of religion? If He didn't want them shearing He wouldn't have made them into sheep.
And I'd have to amend Kevin Hudson slightly. Christianity is an appropriation of a wide range of Hellenistic ideas, all taken from other philosophies. None of it's original.
As for the original question - I thought we already played in pink shirts! Seriously, I think it could only be beneficial for Everton players to support the campaign.
For a religion founded under persecution and open to everyone (except the queers) but whose main man hung around exclusively with a gang of men following the Hellenistic model established by openly homosexual Alexander of the Great. For them to persecute others never fails to amuse me. But when has independent thought ever been part of religion? If He didn't want them shearing He wouldn't have made them into sheep.
And I'd have to amend Kevin Hudson slightly. Christianity is an appropriation of a wide range of Hellenistic ideas, all taken from other philosophies. None of it's original.
As for the original question - I thought we already played in pink shirts! Seriously, I think it could only be beneficial for Everton players to support the campaign.
The only people who believe that we are descended from monkies seem to be Christians. Normal people are aware that we share a common ancestor, which is, of course, something entirely different. Where do these people get their information? No, don't tell me.
Football has many aspects that the snotty nosed can use against it in conversation. Most of my male mates are football fans but occasionally I'll come across someone who questions my faith. They will point out the ridiculous wages, the lack of loyalty and a plethora or other reasons why they are against the beautiful game.
Besides the sheer joy that Everton can bring me, there is one point that is indisputable: Football has done more than anything else in the history of mankind to reduce racism. Most people will see this as a good thing.
As a youngster I would call things 'gay' without really thinking about what it meant. I believe things do have to change and that society needs to change its attitudes to homosexuality.
Besides the sheer joy that Everton can bring me, there is one point that is indisputable: Football has done more than anything else in the history of mankind to reduce racism. Most people will see this as a good thing.
As a youngster I would call things 'gay' without really thinking about what it meant. I believe things do have to change and that society needs to change its attitudes to homosexuality.
Jay Woods (#13) is wrong: the Greeks and the Romans had no problem with homosexuality. It was not till Christianity gripped Europe that people had to suppress their natural urges. Who can honestly say they have the right to control what two consenting adults do behind closed doors???
If football can help homosexuality, like how it reduced racism, then I'm all for it.
You can be religious without being hate-filled. You can interpret the Bible in may different ways, and one of those ways is to interpret that all gays (and many of the rest of us) are going to hell. But why not live and let live and wait until your god makes his judgment, instead of making the world a darker place?
I've just re-read this thread again. I'd like to read what an enlightened Christian has to say. In fact if my daughter wasn't at Uni she could do it for me. The views of the zealots on this thread are what has emptied churches.
What amazes me is that I've never seen these people posting about Everton.
Entertainment of the highest order this thread.
Thanks Lads.
God (whoops, maybe I should not have said that!) forbid that some of you ever get discussing this subject at the match ? there would be WW3 in the Lower Bullens!
In response to the original post, I'd say that British society has come a long way in the last 25 years. Some good things like accepting minorities have happened whilst the gradual breakdown of family life and interaction has been a bad thing so I suppose I can agree with some of all the viewpoints expressed. However, I think we are probably another 10-15 years away from a professional Football Club being confident enough to do what was suggested in the original post.
Thanks Lads.
God (whoops, maybe I should not have said that!) forbid that some of you ever get discussing this subject at the match ? there would be WW3 in the Lower Bullens!
In response to the original post, I'd say that British society has come a long way in the last 25 years. Some good things like accepting minorities have happened whilst the gradual breakdown of family life and interaction has been a bad thing so I suppose I can agree with some of all the viewpoints expressed. However, I think we are probably another 10-15 years away from a professional Football Club being confident enough to do what was suggested in the original post.
Old Jesus joke:
Jesus dies and goes up to Heaven. The first thing he does is look for his father, as he has never met the man before and is curious as to what he looks like, and whether or not Jesus looks like his mother or father, etc. He looks high and low but cannot find him.
He asks St. Peter "Where is my father?" But St. Peter says he doesn't know.
He asks the archangel Gabriel "Where is my father?" But Gabriel doesn't know.
He asks John the Baptist "Where is my father?" But John does not know. So he wanders Heaven, impatiently searching.
Suddenly he sees out of the mist an old man coming toward him. The man is very old, with white hair, stooped over a little. "Stop!" Jesus yells. "Who are you?"
"Oh, please help me, I'm just a humble old carpenter in search of my son." Jesus is very curious. Could this be his father? "Tell me of your son, old man."
"Oh, you would know him if you saw him. He's got holes in his hands from when he was once attatched to a wooden cross..."
"Father!!!!!" Screams Jesus.
"Pinocchio!!!!!!!" yells the old man.
Jesus dies and goes up to Heaven. The first thing he does is look for his father, as he has never met the man before and is curious as to what he looks like, and whether or not Jesus looks like his mother or father, etc. He looks high and low but cannot find him.
He asks St. Peter "Where is my father?" But St. Peter says he doesn't know.
He asks the archangel Gabriel "Where is my father?" But Gabriel doesn't know.
He asks John the Baptist "Where is my father?" But John does not know. So he wanders Heaven, impatiently searching.
Suddenly he sees out of the mist an old man coming toward him. The man is very old, with white hair, stooped over a little. "Stop!" Jesus yells. "Who are you?"
"Oh, please help me, I'm just a humble old carpenter in search of my son." Jesus is very curious. Could this be his father? "Tell me of your son, old man."
"Oh, you would know him if you saw him. He's got holes in his hands from when he was once attatched to a wooden cross..."
"Father!!!!!" Screams Jesus.
"Pinocchio!!!!!!!" yells the old man.
Jay what is religion if not the most effective way in history of controlling the masses?! The rejection of it is not propaganda and there is no agenda, it is the opposite. There are people asserting their individual rights and freedoms away from the controlling influence of those who claim to know better, yet don't, and simply want to control others and prevent anyone being too different to them. Communism seeks to do all the same things as religion, and is not comparable to a free society where individuals and small groups, not states, are promoting their ideals.
The Bible may describe homosexuality as an abomination, but it also describes shellfish as an abomination, instructs us in the proper way to make animal sacrifices to please The Lord, and advocates the death penalty for a wide range of offences including wearing clothes made of two different types of cloth, planting two different crops in the same field, and trimming the hair around your temples.
So if you've ever worn a cotton/polyester mix in your life, you have to admit that your dislike of homosexuality is a subjective personal taste, not something decreed by God. Also, simply believing that Jesus was the Son of God does not mean you know more about his teachings than someone else. Jesus never got close to talking about homosexuality, but continually went out of his way to converse with, eat with and help those who his society considered outcasts or sinners.
So put it away and stop giving Christianity a bad name (not that I particularly care).
PS: Chris (37) its St Paul who gives the opinions on how to treat your slaves (in Philemon) where he actually entreats Philemon not to see Onesimus as a slave, but as a brother.
The Bible may describe homosexuality as an abomination, but it also describes shellfish as an abomination, instructs us in the proper way to make animal sacrifices to please The Lord, and advocates the death penalty for a wide range of offences including wearing clothes made of two different types of cloth, planting two different crops in the same field, and trimming the hair around your temples.
So if you've ever worn a cotton/polyester mix in your life, you have to admit that your dislike of homosexuality is a subjective personal taste, not something decreed by God. Also, simply believing that Jesus was the Son of God does not mean you know more about his teachings than someone else. Jesus never got close to talking about homosexuality, but continually went out of his way to converse with, eat with and help those who his society considered outcasts or sinners.
So put it away and stop giving Christianity a bad name (not that I particularly care).
PS: Chris (37) its St Paul who gives the opinions on how to treat your slaves (in Philemon) where he actually entreats Philemon not to see Onesimus as a slave, but as a brother.
They should get Magaye Gueye to front the campaign
I can't lay claim to this as the discussion was a good few weeks ago now on Radio 2 but a very good interview with a well read chap finished with a very poignant statement along the lines of it's astonishing that today in a world that mankind can perform the most delicate surgery rebuilding damaged people that would have died before and even unborn babies to save their lives and build fabulously complicated technical devices that can put us deep into space or at the bottom of the oceans, that man still butchers each other in the thousands every year in the name of the mythology which is religion.
I have heard a lot of religious fanatics killing in the name of their god, yet never heard an Atheist do the same for Atheism....
I believe in maltesers, I can touch them, see them and feel them..... mmmmmm.
I believe in maltesers, I can touch them, see them and feel them..... mmmmmm.
Of the OP, I don't believe it is rocket science why gay players do not "come out". Nearly every single player is targeted by opposing moronic fans (Everton included) for something, why give them more ammunition?
Sorry, I'm a little late getting to this thread... but we really need too stay on topic. The Christian Religion angle is obviously highly relevant as that is the source and justifcation given for continued homophobia, However, getting into the wider issues of religion beyond the homophobia it engenders is probably not warranted.
Although John Daley (#21) ? that Voltaire quote is excellent. Guess I need to read a bit more widely!
Oh and EJ: "I live at 667 ? I'm the next-door neighbour of the beast, so fuck you!" ? ROFLMAO... fucking brilliant, I love it!
Although John Daley (#21) ? that Voltaire quote is excellent. Guess I need to read a bit more widely!
Oh and EJ: "I live at 667 ? I'm the next-door neighbour of the beast, so fuck you!" ? ROFLMAO... fucking brilliant, I love it!
@Eugene (post 28)
Respect to you, Sir! :-)
Respect to you, Sir! :-)
@13 Jay I've missed you so much parading up Goodison Road with your "End is Nigh" banner! That has got to be the biggest wind-up on this site that I have read, comedy value.
Weirdly (I mean REALLY weirdly!) I'm currently living (and working) in Gothenburg and decided (while here) I'd go to watch IFK Gothenburg (coz they play in blue and white). However, one of the (Swedish) lads in work told me that IFK were the Liverpool of Gothenburg and that Gothenburg's 'other' team (the one he supported) were founder members of the Swedish League and the 'working class side'. I told him his Liverpool reference meant IFK were now dead to me and I would now 'support' Gais (pronounced...Gays). Spooooo-KEE!
I am a strict Catholic. Ever since I was an altar boy and Father Kelleher baptized my cassock...
I want to put something to you guys saying many of you don't care what a player gets up to as long as he puts a shift in. I seem to recall many people disliking Pienaar's God loving celebrations. Would there be similar criticism if Tony Hibbert scored and pulled up his Everton shirt to reveal a T-shirt with the slogan "Gay and Proud"?
There have been some excellent posts above and Eugene excelled himself.
I want to put something to you guys saying many of you don't care what a player gets up to as long as he puts a shift in. I seem to recall many people disliking Pienaar's God loving celebrations. Would there be similar criticism if Tony Hibbert scored and pulled up his Everton shirt to reveal a T-shirt with the slogan "Gay and Proud"?
There have been some excellent posts above and Eugene excelled himself.
A question for our Christian fundamentalists: If our club came out (no pun intended) and led the way in the media in a anti-homophobia campaign, would you still support Everton?
Jay Woods "I won't be lectured to about Jesus from a person who doesn't know Him or what his Word says about deviants". So you personally knew Jesus and can therefore prove he actually existed and that the words were spoken by him? Homesexuality is real, whether you approve or not, but where is the proof of any god, of any religion?
Richard - that is a very good point.
On a different point, we know Leon Osman exists and he is doing a bloody good job at the moment!
On a different point, we know Leon Osman exists and he is doing a bloody good job at the moment!
Does Mucha exist?
Andy - of course he does. He's like the secret weapon of goalkeeping.
Mike Allison #52, right you are sir. Paul it was. Interestingly St Paul loves talking about slaves, and if you see the book of Ephesiansor Timothy, he just rants on about how slaves should serve their masters well. Jesus never once discouraged the keeping of slaves, however, but more than once backed up the teachings of the old testament. (Matthew 5:18-19) so even by default he instructs his followers to abide by all the horrendous instruction of the old testament (including how to sell your daughters into sexual slavery) if they wish to make heaven.
Jon Ferguson #48 "Football has done more than anything else in the history of mankind to reduce racism" - Really??? Don't get me wrong, it was a good post but that seems an incredible claim. Football?? I will take your word for it, but I have my doubts.
Andy and Andrew #65-66: Hilarious! But just to answer your question about hibbo wearing a "gay and proud" shirt (Andrew James #61) would there be criticism? Almost deffinately. From me? Absolutely not. I would be curious as to why he chose to exit the closet in his first ever (and probably only ever) goal celebration, but that's up to him. I suppose Pienaar got some criticism for his "God is great" shirt because whilst it seems harmless (and on it's own sort of is), it's a bit much to accept that a god had anything to do with his Goals. That would suggest that god favours him, for some reason, AND Everton (not unlikely), and can be fucked getting involved in a football match instead of tending to his flock from his seat in the clouds. It's just a bit arrogant and self absorbed. Mind you, when you consider that god doesn't exist, then it doesn't really matter in the end.
I too were raised a strict Catholic. It's probably why I hate religion so much.
Jon Ferguson #48 "Football has done more than anything else in the history of mankind to reduce racism" - Really??? Don't get me wrong, it was a good post but that seems an incredible claim. Football?? I will take your word for it, but I have my doubts.
Andy and Andrew #65-66: Hilarious! But just to answer your question about hibbo wearing a "gay and proud" shirt (Andrew James #61) would there be criticism? Almost deffinately. From me? Absolutely not. I would be curious as to why he chose to exit the closet in his first ever (and probably only ever) goal celebration, but that's up to him. I suppose Pienaar got some criticism for his "God is great" shirt because whilst it seems harmless (and on it's own sort of is), it's a bit much to accept that a god had anything to do with his Goals. That would suggest that god favours him, for some reason, AND Everton (not unlikely), and can be fucked getting involved in a football match instead of tending to his flock from his seat in the clouds. It's just a bit arrogant and self absorbed. Mind you, when you consider that god doesn't exist, then it doesn't really matter in the end.
I too were raised a strict Catholic. It's probably why I hate religion so much.
Brian #31 just where did we all, the monkey and you come from then.
This is the Monkey you and I both share 96% of our DNA with Don't be giving me, any of this, the Bible as a strict historical record / Bishop Usher, 4004 BC Adam and Eve Garden of Eden shite neither.
This totally pissed off at fundimentalist God botherers was brought to you by todays words...
Allegorical
Fossils
DNA.
You probabley think Kenwrights doing a hell (oops) of a job too.
This is the Monkey you and I both share 96% of our DNA with Don't be giving me, any of this, the Bible as a strict historical record / Bishop Usher, 4004 BC Adam and Eve Garden of Eden shite neither.
This totally pissed off at fundimentalist God botherers was brought to you by todays words...
Allegorical
Fossils
DNA.
You probabley think Kenwrights doing a hell (oops) of a job too.
How many times have you seen the winning boxer, just after a fight, say..
"Ah juss give thanks to awwlmighty God, my lord and saviour, he's with me at aaaawl times..." etc
Wouldn't you love (JUST ONCE) to hear the loser say..
"Don't blame me mate, I was fit, ready, I knew I was the better fighter, in fact this fight should have been a piece of piss for me, but.....well it was him wasn't it (raises eyes, points up) fuckin' 'God'. The truth is, and I'm not makin' excuses, the twat really let me down tonight!"
Well...um....I would!
Also, if a merciful, loving God DID exist, why would he do all these terrible things.....like give us Kenwright?
I mean from what I can remember, it was Eve, not an Evertonian who proffered the apple - why punish us for all eternity?
"Ah juss give thanks to awwlmighty God, my lord and saviour, he's with me at aaaawl times..." etc
Wouldn't you love (JUST ONCE) to hear the loser say..
"Don't blame me mate, I was fit, ready, I knew I was the better fighter, in fact this fight should have been a piece of piss for me, but.....well it was him wasn't it (raises eyes, points up) fuckin' 'God'. The truth is, and I'm not makin' excuses, the twat really let me down tonight!"
Well...um....I would!
Also, if a merciful, loving God DID exist, why would he do all these terrible things.....like give us Kenwright?
I mean from what I can remember, it was Eve, not an Evertonian who proffered the apple - why punish us for all eternity?
Okay, that's quite enough. This is getting way off topic.
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1 Posted 16/04/2011 at 05:42:56
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