The Mail Bag
Our Jack
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On my lunch break just saw that United have all but sealed the deal with Blackburn prodigy Phil Jones. Personally, I see similarities in him with our own ?wonderkid? Jack Rodwell- Jones can play in midfield, and did so towards the end of last year, however has been placed at centre back this year alongside Chris Samba and looks to be, dare I say it, twice the player of our Jack.
My question is, with United linked to Rodwell should we be happy that we seem to have kept hold of our most promising youngster or not?
Personally I wouldn?t have minded if Rodwell left, Moyes doesn?t seem to know what his best position is, he?s had a few niggling injuries and his development seems to have stalled.
However, if Jack is still here at the start of the season I would like to see him starting at centre-back alongside jagielka, as I believe he will turn out to be a great intelligent centre back allowing us to play out from the back. I also believe this will bring out the best in jags who can?t help but put his foot through the ball and is ?a great recovery defender? according to the gaffer, so let him be the covering defender, and let jack be our ball-playing defender.
Tom Curtis, Posted 08/06/2011 at 13:16:50
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Someone has to go this summer, the new Kenwrong way, and one of the players whose departure would create the least impact would be Rodwell who has gone backwards this season. He has many supporters who talk about the future but with the current regime unless we sell to freshen up/change the squad then we'll sink down the table. Sad but unless the club is ever sold expect this as reality.
Jones twice the player of Rodwell? Not in a million years, in the game at Goodison Jones was absloute rubbish he was the one who clattered into Coleman and gave away the penalty.
I know Rodwell has regressed a little this season but his distribution is streets ahead of Jones who at best is a clogger in the mould of Jody Craddock.
I know Rodwell has regressed a little this season but his distribution is streets ahead of Jones who at best is a clogger in the mould of Jody Craddock.
It makes sense to keep him as a replacement for Distin...it would be better to let Heitinga go....Rodwell is young and English so fulfills a lot of our requirements for any future ambition we may have as a club. He is tall and when he fully develops I see him slotting in as Jags future partner when the excellent Distin finishes in a season or so.
I would much rather let the foreign players go as they are not here because they love the country or the club.....I dont blame them for chasing the money (I did it myself working abroad for many years) but it makes more sense to let the likes of Bily and Heitinga go and try to use the money to buy one or two British players.
Its better to hang onto Rodwell and Baines and try to build a future EFC side with those two as mainstays...
Does anyone agree with my reasoning ???????
I would much rather let the foreign players go as they are not here because they love the country or the club.....I dont blame them for chasing the money (I did it myself working abroad for many years) but it makes more sense to let the likes of Bily and Heitinga go and try to use the money to buy one or two British players.
Its better to hang onto Rodwell and Baines and try to build a future EFC side with those two as mainstays...
Does anyone agree with my reasoning ???????
SELL THEM BOTH !
Everton will never play the sort of football we all crave as long as Jagielka plays, I wrote an article over a year ago stating this and everyone went bananas. but I`ve seen nothing to change my mind. the guy is a decent defender - sometimes, but he is anti-football
Jack is a big talent, but he isnt the full package he lacks drive and aggression - good luck to the coach who tries to instill those qualities - and anyone who saw him ragdolled by a journeyman striker at the Richo a year ago will not want to see him played at Center half when the chips are down.
They are both English and as todays events have shown us, we will get an inflated price for both of them.
Cash in and lets get this squad freshened up
Everton will never play the sort of football we all crave as long as Jagielka plays, I wrote an article over a year ago stating this and everyone went bananas. but I`ve seen nothing to change my mind. the guy is a decent defender - sometimes, but he is anti-football
Jack is a big talent, but he isnt the full package he lacks drive and aggression - good luck to the coach who tries to instill those qualities - and anyone who saw him ragdolled by a journeyman striker at the Richo a year ago will not want to see him played at Center half when the chips are down.
They are both English and as todays events have shown us, we will get an inflated price for both of them.
Cash in and lets get this squad freshened up
Nice one Dave Wilson - a discussion about Jack Rodwell - first thing you do is criticise Jagiela.
Jags may not be Beckanbaur but how many centre halves can you name in the premier league who are good on the ball? No I can't think of too many either.
Vidic doesn't seem to stop Utd winning the league and you can go down every club and say the same. Except, of course, Arsenal but their centre halves don't seem to be able defend!
Jags may not be Beckanbaur but how many centre halves can you name in the premier league who are good on the ball? No I can't think of too many either.
Vidic doesn't seem to stop Utd winning the league and you can go down every club and say the same. Except, of course, Arsenal but their centre halves don't seem to be able defend!
I have more confidence in SAF's judgement than yours sean. Your thoughts are probably based on the back of that 1 performance at Goodison, were as SAF will have had him scouted for a long time in most games. If he thought Rodwell was the better player he would have came in for him instead of Jones.
It looks as though Henderson will be off to Liverpool as well, both appear to have progressed were as Rodwell as i believed from the very begining was over hyped and has not improved.
Jack does not appear to have a good reading of the game, he struggles to make space for himself which means he tends to go missing in games, he doesn't use the ball very effectively and as Dave said he does not appear to have the drive or aggression to be a top player.
Hopefull i will be proved wrong but he will always be behind Fellaini Arteta and Heitinger in the pecking order which is why £15m for him would be a good deal for Everton.
It looks as though Henderson will be off to Liverpool as well, both appear to have progressed were as Rodwell as i believed from the very begining was over hyped and has not improved.
Jack does not appear to have a good reading of the game, he struggles to make space for himself which means he tends to go missing in games, he doesn't use the ball very effectively and as Dave said he does not appear to have the drive or aggression to be a top player.
Hopefull i will be proved wrong but he will always be behind Fellaini Arteta and Heitinger in the pecking order which is why £15m for him would be a good deal for Everton.
Anyone thought about offering Rodders to United for Welbeck and money? If United are interested it must be an option open to the two clubs and to be honest, the way Rodders has played this season, we should be the ones shelling out money in that deal.
If we can still get a payment/part exchange north of the value of £15m then, in my opinion we have to take it. I am of the opinion that Rodders won't be the world beater we thought he may be. And unfortunately we're not in the position to wait and see.
If we can still get a payment/part exchange north of the value of £15m then, in my opinion we have to take it. I am of the opinion that Rodders won't be the world beater we thought he may be. And unfortunately we're not in the position to wait and see.
I am ashamed of the Evertonians calling for the sale of one of our classiest academy produced loca lads for a long time.
Watch Jack take the under 21 tournament by storm this summer, then ask why Moyes can't get the same out of him.
Watch Jack take the under 21 tournament by storm this summer, then ask why Moyes can't get the same out of him.
Dave Wilson, in my opinion Jagielka is a s close as you can get to Dave Watson, and did that stop us playing good football?
Can`t believe I`m saying it but I agree with Gavram!
You would like to see Rodwell start at centre half in the Premier League instead of 3 experienced international options who have all done a fine job? Err, why? I really do despair at some of the faux revolutionary nonsense people come out with. The lad is currently lacking the aggression to show up in midfield so God only knows what he would be like at centre half....his last experience being bullied by Clinton the monster Morrison during a pre season friendly at Coventry.
Rob Jones
Read the OP mate, its about both of them.
Paul #9
Watson was twice the defender Jagielka is, he was also a great leader -something Jags will never be.
That said our football was never as good as it was When big Derek was playing, I`ll live with that though, Watson was a winner
Read the OP mate, its about both of them.
Paul #9
Watson was twice the defender Jagielka is, he was also a great leader -something Jags will never be.
That said our football was never as good as it was When big Derek was playing, I`ll live with that though, Watson was a winner
Rodwell should end up a good solid Premier League performer, not a world beater, so we should be happy if as looks likely he stays.
Jones has had a good start with Blackburn and although i haven't seen that much of him he does seem similar to Rodwell but playing with more confidence which Rodwell hasn't had for different reasons.
It should be a interesting pre season but unless another club offers silly money for one of are main assets signings above say 5 million would seem unlikely (hope ime wrong).
Players like Jones and Henderson for 20 million are a definite risk imo as playing well for half a season can easily turn to poor form and a dissapearing act.
Jones has had a good start with Blackburn and although i haven't seen that much of him he does seem similar to Rodwell but playing with more confidence which Rodwell hasn't had for different reasons.
It should be a interesting pre season but unless another club offers silly money for one of are main assets signings above say 5 million would seem unlikely (hope ime wrong).
Players like Jones and Henderson for 20 million are a definite risk imo as playing well for half a season can easily turn to poor form and a dissapearing act.
Sean Patton@3 The dog at the end of are block is in the mould of Craddock.
I watched Jones on telly playing for the under 21's the other day and he looked ok, i aint stupid enough to judge him on one game but comparing him to Cradock? That did make me laugh.
I watched Jones on telly playing for the under 21's the other day and he looked ok, i aint stupid enough to judge him on one game but comparing him to Cradock? That did make me laugh.
Dave Wilson would you say the OP is about Jones and Samba too because they are mentioned?
I would also take issue with your assessment of Jags leadership skills, I believe he is a good talker at the back and leads by example. Dave Watson was great but also put his foot through the ball often enough!
I would also take issue with your assessment of Jags leadership skills, I believe he is a good talker at the back and leads by example. Dave Watson was great but also put his foot through the ball often enough!
Dave Wilson doesn't rate Jags but he and Lescott formed one of the best CB partnerships that I have seen at Everton - and that goes back 50 years. And yet, he will defend Hibbert to the hilt - who is also a player prone to putting his "foot through it".
There's a flaw in your assertion. And a rather large one at that. Our Jack can't defend. He's been in centre half for the first team and was abysmal. Jack has not been used properly this season. He will be a top box to box, in spite of our management team.
THere's a flaw in your assertion. ANd a rather large one at that. Our jack can't defend. He's been in centre half for the first team and was abysmal. Jack has not been used properly this season. He will be a top box to box, in spite of our management team.
Tunstead
I could not care less what Ferguson thinks of him and how Man United spend their money.
I was merely responding to the point that somebody thinks Jones is twice the player of Rodwell which in my opinion is utter tosh.
How on earth can you believe 15 million for Rodwell be a good deal for Everton when Jones is going for more?
I could not care less what Ferguson thinks of him and how Man United spend their money.
I was merely responding to the point that somebody thinks Jones is twice the player of Rodwell which in my opinion is utter tosh.
How on earth can you believe 15 million for Rodwell be a good deal for Everton when Jones is going for more?
Dave Wilson # 5.
Jags a decent defender? ask Fernando Torres.
One of the best defenders i,ve seen at our football club, Brilliant.
Regarding Rodwell.
He aint a box to box midfielder. Holding midfielder?. If the rumours are true, Man u / Ferguson have been looking high and low for years, for a Roy Keane, i.e Carrick, Hargreaves and Anderson. Maybe Ferguson see,s Rodwell as Roy Keane. Dont forget that was the position Rodwell was playing when he was going through he,s purple patch, then got injured.
Jags a decent defender? ask Fernando Torres.
One of the best defenders i,ve seen at our football club, Brilliant.
Regarding Rodwell.
He aint a box to box midfielder. Holding midfielder?. If the rumours are true, Man u / Ferguson have been looking high and low for years, for a Roy Keane, i.e Carrick, Hargreaves and Anderson. Maybe Ferguson see,s Rodwell as Roy Keane. Dont forget that was the position Rodwell was playing when he was going through he,s purple patch, then got injured.
Start Rodwell and Jagielka centre half at the start of the season? Slightly unfair on arguably our player of the year, Distin (the argue being Baines).
Patton
In my opinion £15m would be a good deal for Everton because i doubt anyone would be so unwise to pay any more especially if he has another season as bad as the last. I think it would be a good time to cash in while his value is still inflated from the hype.
Also Rodwell is likley to be sat on the bench for most of next season as he is probably our 4th of 5th choice midfielder and so £15million would be better used on what we really need such as a striker.
In my opinion £15m would be a good deal for Everton because i doubt anyone would be so unwise to pay any more especially if he has another season as bad as the last. I think it would be a good time to cash in while his value is still inflated from the hype.
Also Rodwell is likley to be sat on the bench for most of next season as he is probably our 4th of 5th choice midfielder and so £15million would be better used on what we really need such as a striker.
I'd be happy enough to see himm go. This isn't like the Rooney situation - there we had a young forward who was ready to play. Good enough to dictate how the game should be played around him.
Rodwell needs to learn the game and, sorry to say it, but he isn't going to learn the right stuff here. Put him in a good side and he'll come along very well - continue to 'educate' him like this and his playing and financial worth to us will suffer.
He's worth more to us being sold now than he will be in the future.
Rodwell needs to learn the game and, sorry to say it, but he isn't going to learn the right stuff here. Put him in a good side and he'll come along very well - continue to 'educate' him like this and his playing and financial worth to us will suffer.
He's worth more to us being sold now than he will be in the future.
The Jack & Johnny Show = 2 ball playing central defenders.
Dave (5&12) - you write some great stuff on here most of which I agree with, but your obsession with getting rid of Jagielka is undermining everything you say. He is a top defender; yeah maybe he tries too many cross-field long balls for my liking as well, but he is there to defend and he is very good at that. Better to have a top defender that hoofs it sometimes than a 'ball-playing defender' who can't defend properly.
Colin #18 - "Maybe Ferguson sees Rodwell as Roy Keane". Don't think so. Good as Jack is, he ain't Roy Keane. Could you imagine Jack saying to Capello " Fuck off you load of old bollocks" or something similar ? No, neither could I.
Colin #18 - "Maybe Ferguson sees Rodwell as Roy Keane". Don't think so. Good as Jack is, he ain't Roy Keane. Could you imagine Jack saying to Capello " Fuck off you load of old bollocks" or something similar ? No, neither could I.
Bloody hell there are some scary comments on this site.
Jack Rodwell is a class young player. Completely disagree about him not reading the game well. He is big, athletic, can pick a pass (sorry to those of you who expect a 20yr old to make defence splitting passes all game).
He has been held up with injuries but the talent is there and he is still only 20. Utd can keep their hands off him as far as I'm concerned. Even if he didn't progress into a star he will be a decent english player so we will always be able to sell him for a tidy sum if needed.
I look at how Coleman worked brilliantly on the right this season. The poor bugger couldn't get a start at right back until he was handed an opportunity on the wing. He got that because Moyes had few other options. Jack isn't likely to get such a clear run of games considering the talent we already have through the middle of the park.
I still hold faith that he will be an Everton great in time.
Jack Rodwell is a class young player. Completely disagree about him not reading the game well. He is big, athletic, can pick a pass (sorry to those of you who expect a 20yr old to make defence splitting passes all game).
He has been held up with injuries but the talent is there and he is still only 20. Utd can keep their hands off him as far as I'm concerned. Even if he didn't progress into a star he will be a decent english player so we will always be able to sell him for a tidy sum if needed.
I look at how Coleman worked brilliantly on the right this season. The poor bugger couldn't get a start at right back until he was handed an opportunity on the wing. He got that because Moyes had few other options. Jack isn't likely to get such a clear run of games considering the talent we already have through the middle of the park.
I still hold faith that he will be an Everton great in time.
Ray #16
What are you talking about lad ? whats it got to do with Tony Hibbert ?
Jagielka is in a different class to Tony, he`s reputedly worth 10-15 million quid, you could take a nought off that figure if you wanted to sell Hibbo, BUT If somebody would pay that for Hibbo, I would advocate selling him too, they wont . . so what would be the point ?
If Jagielka wasnt valued so highly I would not advocate selling him , ,but he is and thats the direction the thread is taking - how do we raise the money. ?
I dont criticise Jagielka or any of our players just for the sake of it, I think we could manage without him and I say why .
We all know we are skint and if we are to buy, we need to sell first, If you would rather keep the current squad fair enough, but I wouldnt.
I want to keep Fellaini, so for me its Jags and Roddders and I give my reasons, Its not compulsary to bring one of our home grown players into every debate you know.
Hibbo is a good honest pro and while he wears the Everton shirt I will defend him as such.
What are you talking about lad ? whats it got to do with Tony Hibbert ?
Jagielka is in a different class to Tony, he`s reputedly worth 10-15 million quid, you could take a nought off that figure if you wanted to sell Hibbo, BUT If somebody would pay that for Hibbo, I would advocate selling him too, they wont . . so what would be the point ?
If Jagielka wasnt valued so highly I would not advocate selling him , ,but he is and thats the direction the thread is taking - how do we raise the money. ?
I dont criticise Jagielka or any of our players just for the sake of it, I think we could manage without him and I say why .
We all know we are skint and if we are to buy, we need to sell first, If you would rather keep the current squad fair enough, but I wouldnt.
I want to keep Fellaini, so for me its Jags and Roddders and I give my reasons, Its not compulsary to bring one of our home grown players into every debate you know.
Hibbo is a good honest pro and while he wears the Everton shirt I will defend him as such.
Our defence CARRIED us throughout last season and it seems that all the for me, STUPID talk, is discussing getting rid of Jags when the article was about Rodders.....The two who must go for me are Heitinga and Bily who have not shown being worth the money spent on them....both are foreign mercenaries and Heitinga is again in print moaning because he is not playing in europe.
The man would NOT get in our best eleven....so much for his playing in europe gripe...also I have seen no evidence of any club wanting him.
If he wants european football with his very limited talent, then I suggest he should head back to Holland or some othe european country where he may fit in.
Both players have not proved good buys so stop the sniping at decent english players who want to play for us.
Jags definitely has been part of one of the best defences in the league and for my money an integral part of the club as a whole.
We need strikers and wide attacking players so put the vitriolic comments into gaining players for those positions and STOP sniping at players who put 100% into every game and have kept us away from the relegation zone.
I say loudly..get rid of Bily and Heitinga plus Yak, Yobo and the others out on loan.
The man would NOT get in our best eleven....so much for his playing in europe gripe...also I have seen no evidence of any club wanting him.
If he wants european football with his very limited talent, then I suggest he should head back to Holland or some othe european country where he may fit in.
Both players have not proved good buys so stop the sniping at decent english players who want to play for us.
Jags definitely has been part of one of the best defences in the league and for my money an integral part of the club as a whole.
We need strikers and wide attacking players so put the vitriolic comments into gaining players for those positions and STOP sniping at players who put 100% into every game and have kept us away from the relegation zone.
I say loudly..get rid of Bily and Heitinga plus Yak, Yobo and the others out on loan.
I agree with Trevor@26 Heitinga and Billy should be the players to go while they still have some resale value.
Would Heitinga bring in 7 million? whilst Billy imo would bring in 4 million tops, added to the vaughan sale the Yak and Yobo that should give Moyes enough to bring in a young goalscorer with potential.
I would also like to see a wide player with pace a central midfielder who has some drive in his game who is going to compete with the quality we have in there.
The managers biggest task imo is not potential new signings but getting players like Arteta and Jageilka to consistently produce the high standards they are capable of.
Another big thing for Moyes is not to let this bollocks about starting the season shite eat away at the players and make sure were ready mentally for the start of the season.
Would Heitinga bring in 7 million? whilst Billy imo would bring in 4 million tops, added to the vaughan sale the Yak and Yobo that should give Moyes enough to bring in a young goalscorer with potential.
I would also like to see a wide player with pace a central midfielder who has some drive in his game who is going to compete with the quality we have in there.
The managers biggest task imo is not potential new signings but getting players like Arteta and Jageilka to consistently produce the high standards they are capable of.
Another big thing for Moyes is not to let this bollocks about starting the season shite eat away at the players and make sure were ready mentally for the start of the season.
I think it looks increasingly unlikely that we will be selling anyone for any big money this Summer.
The one thing that might change that is if Rodders has a blinder at the Euro championship and tempts Utd or City to open their chequebook again.
Otherwise it promise to be a very dull Summer for us with a couple of free transfer and maybe some more unheard of kids coming in much like this time last year. Meanwhile cash is going to be flying everythwere around us as the big teams make use of the diminishing time to make huge investments in overrated players and the selling clubs then have huge wedges of cash to spend and fans to placate.
My prediction:
Yobo, Yak and Vaughan out for around £6m
Boothroyd, Larsson, Long and some unheard of youngster in for also around £6m.
Snoresville.
The one thing that might change that is if Rodders has a blinder at the Euro championship and tempts Utd or City to open their chequebook again.
Otherwise it promise to be a very dull Summer for us with a couple of free transfer and maybe some more unheard of kids coming in much like this time last year. Meanwhile cash is going to be flying everythwere around us as the big teams make use of the diminishing time to make huge investments in overrated players and the selling clubs then have huge wedges of cash to spend and fans to placate.
My prediction:
Yobo, Yak and Vaughan out for around £6m
Boothroyd, Larsson, Long and some unheard of youngster in for also around £6m.
Snoresville.
Rodwell is better than Jones and Henderson for that matter. He was looking a really good player up until the "worst injury of his career" he said that he picked up against Villa. We need to keep him fit and when he gets back up to speed he'll show why he is better than these two.
Whats really "STUPID" is to suggest the sale of Bily and Heitinga could generate anywhere near enough money to purchase the standard of creative players we are crying out for - its a bit like those posts that say "Vic is shite, lets flog him for 5 million".
Its also "stupid" to think our defence carried us last season , individual defensive errors cost us any hope of challenging the top four and they were every bit as responsible for a disappointing season as our toothless attack
I`d be happy to see Bily gone, but to generate the sort of cash needed for a radical overhall then it has to be somebody/s with a higher profile.
People constantly whine about our style of play, yet they scream the house down if you suggest selling the cheif exponent of Hoofball.
Jagielka will have past 30 next season and we`ll then be lucky if we could get half of the 15 million Wenger was reportedly prepared to pay for him last season.
We dont concede any more goals when Jagielka isnt playing and we have never challenged for a champions league place with him or Rodders in our ranks.
Selling these two could generate 30m + at the ridiculous prices clubs are prepared to pay for English players and IMO its "stupid" to dismiss the possibility of us being a better team by purchasing a decent creative players with the proceeds of their sale.
I recognise people can be blinded by favouritism, but there is a much bigger picture here.
Brendan
The good news is ; Davey Moyes isnt too interested in what I have to say, so your hero is likely to be here until he turns into stubbsy . . mores the pity
Its also "stupid" to think our defence carried us last season , individual defensive errors cost us any hope of challenging the top four and they were every bit as responsible for a disappointing season as our toothless attack
I`d be happy to see Bily gone, but to generate the sort of cash needed for a radical overhall then it has to be somebody/s with a higher profile.
People constantly whine about our style of play, yet they scream the house down if you suggest selling the cheif exponent of Hoofball.
Jagielka will have past 30 next season and we`ll then be lucky if we could get half of the 15 million Wenger was reportedly prepared to pay for him last season.
We dont concede any more goals when Jagielka isnt playing and we have never challenged for a champions league place with him or Rodders in our ranks.
Selling these two could generate 30m + at the ridiculous prices clubs are prepared to pay for English players and IMO its "stupid" to dismiss the possibility of us being a better team by purchasing a decent creative players with the proceeds of their sale.
I recognise people can be blinded by favouritism, but there is a much bigger picture here.
Brendan
The good news is ; Davey Moyes isnt too interested in what I have to say, so your hero is likely to be here until he turns into stubbsy . . mores the pity
Andy Carrolw ent for 35 million, henderson for 20 million, evens malling got 10 million. British players have a premium so whether or not you agree to selling Rodwell or not what makes Carrol worth more than double Rodwell? We should be keeping hold of him and nurturing him into the player that he has the potential to be instead of letting someone else doing it and then using our money to buy a load of mercernaries who will only use us a springboard to somewhere else.
James, the reason why Carrol is worth more than double Rodwell, is because he is a striker who knows where the back of the net is, and will go on to score a hat full of goals.
In terms of Jack; I think he?ll be a very good player in years to come and ideally we should keep him. However, money the way it is under the Kenwright regime, it looks like we?ll have to sell him as his loss will cause the least upheaval.
Given a choice between keeping Baines, Fellaini or Rodwell; I?d pick Baines and Fellaini.
As for ?hoofball Jags?. Maybe the reason for is supposed hoofball is because none of our midfielders give him an option? When he plays for England he doesn?t hoofball. Is that because Capello tells him not to, but Moyes does? Is it because England?s midfielders provide better options than our midfielders?
Instead of having a go at him, look into the reasons why.
I?ll go on record now and say Jagielka is one of the best centre half?s in the league, and no way on God?s green Earth would I drop him or sell him.
Given a choice between keeping Baines, Fellaini or Rodwell; I?d pick Baines and Fellaini.
As for ?hoofball Jags?. Maybe the reason for is supposed hoofball is because none of our midfielders give him an option? When he plays for England he doesn?t hoofball. Is that because Capello tells him not to, but Moyes does? Is it because England?s midfielders provide better options than our midfielders?
Instead of having a go at him, look into the reasons why.
I?ll go on record now and say Jagielka is one of the best centre half?s in the league, and no way on God?s green Earth would I drop him or sell him.
This is what I find strange, Jags is a very good centre - half, but he very rarely gets any stick for it his use of the ball, which is absolutely abysmal. He also gets praised to the hilt.
Tony Hibbert is also a very good defender ( Just as good as Jags ) but he gets absolutely slaughtered for his distribution with the ball, and is hammered on here all the time.
One question, Why?
Tony Hibbert is also a very good defender ( Just as good as Jags ) but he gets absolutely slaughtered for his distribution with the ball, and is hammered on here all the time.
One question, Why?
Adam
Dont give me that, I cringe at the regularity with which jags hoofs it when he plays for England.
I have sat behind Moyes when he was repeatly screaming at Jagielka to "shorten it up". Do you really believe any manager would encourage such mindless surrender of possesion ? especially one who`s meant to be as cautious as Moyes ?
Jags repeated ignores midfiled players 3-4 yards away and puts his foot through it.
We all know why he does it, its because he doesnt trust himself, he cant play and we`ve seent he results when he tries too,
Thats not having a go at him, that is stating what everyone who watches Everton regularly knows to be fact
Dont give me that, I cringe at the regularity with which jags hoofs it when he plays for England.
I have sat behind Moyes when he was repeatly screaming at Jagielka to "shorten it up". Do you really believe any manager would encourage such mindless surrender of possesion ? especially one who`s meant to be as cautious as Moyes ?
Jags repeated ignores midfiled players 3-4 yards away and puts his foot through it.
We all know why he does it, its because he doesnt trust himself, he cant play and we`ve seent he results when he tries too,
Thats not having a go at him, that is stating what everyone who watches Everton regularly knows to be fact
Dave Wilson,
I don't think selling Jagielka as he is our best defender by far at the moment. I think you do underrate his defensive policies a bit.
I agree with you about his distribution, but at the same time, I made an article somewhat about midfielders not providing space for the defenders to pass to. It's unfair to solely blame Jagielka for the hoofball.
Perhaps because he's English, his value will go up, you're right, but I would never sell him, I can see him playing first team for most of the teams in the EPL.
I don't think selling Jagielka as he is our best defender by far at the moment. I think you do underrate his defensive policies a bit.
I agree with you about his distribution, but at the same time, I made an article somewhat about midfielders not providing space for the defenders to pass to. It's unfair to solely blame Jagielka for the hoofball.
Perhaps because he's English, his value will go up, you're right, but I would never sell him, I can see him playing first team for most of the teams in the EPL.
Dave, put Jagielka in that title winning team and he would prove as good as Dave Watson.
Watson was so similar to how Jagielka plays for us and how many of those boo boys who slaughtered him when he first came to Everton thought he would end up an Everton legend?
Watson was so similar to how Jagielka plays for us and how many of those boo boys who slaughtered him when he first came to Everton thought he would end up an Everton legend?
Ben what are you talking about ? how am I underestimating him ?
I recognise its his defensive qualities that make him one of the few players we can get a big fee for.
Unlike the head in the sand merchants I can see clearly that we have to generate money. How else do we do it without selling one or two of our higher profiler players ?
We have adaquate replacements in central defence.
Make something up about Hibbo conceding 50 penalties or Vic Missing 100 sitters and fifty people are posting in to agree . . but state an irrifutable fact about one of the favourites and suddenly your talking shite and hoofball is now acceptable.
Fuck it your right, lets keep him. lets keep blaiming everyone else for his hoofball, lets finish seventh again - or lower and lets not even think about generating Money to by more creative footballers.
School of science, My arse
I recognise its his defensive qualities that make him one of the few players we can get a big fee for.
Unlike the head in the sand merchants I can see clearly that we have to generate money. How else do we do it without selling one or two of our higher profiler players ?
We have adaquate replacements in central defence.
Make something up about Hibbo conceding 50 penalties or Vic Missing 100 sitters and fifty people are posting in to agree . . but state an irrifutable fact about one of the favourites and suddenly your talking shite and hoofball is now acceptable.
Fuck it your right, lets keep him. lets keep blaiming everyone else for his hoofball, lets finish seventh again - or lower and lets not even think about generating Money to by more creative footballers.
School of science, My arse
Dave #30...If you had ever played the game at a decent level you would know that defence is supposed to be carried out by the whole team.
Baines was voted player of the season closely followed by Distin and Jags...the only forward player who performed was OSMAN and he missed a lot of games...Our defence carried the side as a whole and if you cannot see that...then you must be watching other games !!
Baines was voted player of the season closely followed by Distin and Jags...the only forward player who performed was OSMAN and he missed a lot of games...Our defence carried the side as a whole and if you cannot see that...then you must be watching other games !!
Dave @ 25, you say that you don't criticise Jags for the sake of it but state elsewhere that Jags is "anti-football", presumably just because his distribution is poor (is it really or does the midfield not show for the ball?).
My mentioning of Hibbert was merely to point out that the biggest "anti-footballer" in the team, seems to get off scot free in your estimation.
Jags may have his limitations but there have been many matches when he held us together. His regular mastery of Torres in matches at Anfield (when Torres was at his peak) was indeed a masterclass to behold. If we sold him (accepting your argument that he has some considerable value), we would be in trouble, in my opinion.
My mentioning of Hibbert was merely to point out that the biggest "anti-footballer" in the team, seems to get off scot free in your estimation.
Jags may have his limitations but there have been many matches when he held us together. His regular mastery of Torres in matches at Anfield (when Torres was at his peak) was indeed a masterclass to behold. If we sold him (accepting your argument that he has some considerable value), we would be in trouble, in my opinion.
Trevor, I think Baines was voted player of the season more for his attacking ability. It couldn't have been for his defending, which at times is very suspect.
Trevor
I played at a decent level, but I wasnt good enough to make a living out of the game besides it was over thirty years ago, so it makes not one iota of difference to this or any other of todays debates. I wouldnt embarress myself with one of those "I coulda made it" posts. because if I coulda, I woulda.
Our defence has been an utter shambles at times and if I listed the errors and points they have cost us this season I`d be here all night.
if you didnt see these errors, or if you think Baines was voted player of the year for his defensive displays then You`re right , we really were watching different games.
Ray.
Just because Jagielkas "distribution poor" ? ? what distribution, he constantly ignores team mates close by, and twats it aimlessly upfield . . . That is the very definition of anti football.
You can defend it all you want, but he has done it with more than a dozen different midfield players, ARE THEY ALL TO BLAME ? ? and if so why do you suppose the hoofball miraculously dissappered during the spell when Jagielka was watching from the bench ?
He may be great at last ditch tackles - he`s has to be really given his ability on the ball, but why dont you just admit it, when he has the ball he`s hopeless.
Sell Him and bring back football
I played at a decent level, but I wasnt good enough to make a living out of the game besides it was over thirty years ago, so it makes not one iota of difference to this or any other of todays debates. I wouldnt embarress myself with one of those "I coulda made it" posts. because if I coulda, I woulda.
Our defence has been an utter shambles at times and if I listed the errors and points they have cost us this season I`d be here all night.
if you didnt see these errors, or if you think Baines was voted player of the year for his defensive displays then You`re right , we really were watching different games.
Ray.
Just because Jagielkas "distribution poor" ? ? what distribution, he constantly ignores team mates close by, and twats it aimlessly upfield . . . That is the very definition of anti football.
You can defend it all you want, but he has done it with more than a dozen different midfield players, ARE THEY ALL TO BLAME ? ? and if so why do you suppose the hoofball miraculously dissappered during the spell when Jagielka was watching from the bench ?
He may be great at last ditch tackles - he`s has to be really given his ability on the ball, but why dont you just admit it, when he has the ball he`s hopeless.
Sell Him and bring back football
Dave, once again we have different opinions. If we have a midfielder willing to take the ball off him, Jags passes the ball short. If he is under any pressure though he launches it. Yes it's not always pleasant to watch but I'd rather he knew his limitations and played safe than try to dribble his way out of defence.
To sell our best defender though because of this one failing would be suicidal. Oh, I forgot, there's always that ace Dutchman to rescue us - not.
To sell our best defender though because of this one failing would be suicidal. Oh, I forgot, there's always that ace Dutchman to rescue us - not.
Dave@33 A decent striker can be brought in for the say 15m Heitinga, Billy, The Yak, Vaughan and Yobo should bring in.
A pacey wideman in the mould of Donavan (not my job to find them) would cost around 8m that surely Kenwright and the rest of the board should be able to drum up.
Moyes should then try to get the best from Arteta then as Cahill said lets turn Goodison into a fortress and we still have the makings of a good side.
Bringing in four or five first team players never works and thats even if they cost top dollar.
A pacey wideman in the mould of Donavan (not my job to find them) would cost around 8m that surely Kenwright and the rest of the board should be able to drum up.
Moyes should then try to get the best from Arteta then as Cahill said lets turn Goodison into a fortress and we still have the makings of a good side.
Bringing in four or five first team players never works and thats even if they cost top dollar.
Paul Gladwell @40 well said I also remember Lineker getting stick at first befor goin on to rattle in 40 fuckin goals.
Jageilka did have a average season by his own high standards but lets not forget he was not long back from a career threatening injury.
Lescott was great for us but ime glad it was him and not Jageilka who was sold.
Jageilka did have a average season by his own high standards but lets not forget he was not long back from a career threatening injury.
Lescott was great for us but ime glad it was him and not Jageilka who was sold.
Is Darren Bent anti football Dave? Lets face it all he does is score goals.
Right Dave Wilson lets get this straight Jags is a great defender who twats the ball foward, whats wrong with that?
well it does lose possession and invites another attack which Jags will deal with then twat the ball forward again which in turn invites another attack.
Do you get my drift lads.
well it does lose possession and invites another attack which Jags will deal with then twat the ball forward again which in turn invites another attack.
Do you get my drift lads.
Ray #46, you could just as easily substitute 'Hibbo' for 'Jags' in your post, yet Tony gets loads of stick on this site.
Ray
We agree, that Jags is a fine defender, we agree its better he hoofs it rather than have his limitations exposed. I doubt selling him would be "suicidal" but I`m more than happy to agree it would be risky.
Last season we had : Two strikers, who are finished, one who is desperately trying to make the leap from two divisions down, one who`s made of glass and another one who doesnt even get into the box.
we cant have another one like that, to progress we need more fire power and a bit more creative guile. I`m sure you will agree on that.
The money has to be found to buy a striker and a creative player, this is where we differ, everyone has their own opinion as to how we do that.
Selling Rodwell and Jags. would be unpopular for many reasons - not to mention risky - but by virtue of the fact that they are English we will get a lot more for both than they are actually worth.
Thats the direction I would take, thats all
We agree, that Jags is a fine defender, we agree its better he hoofs it rather than have his limitations exposed. I doubt selling him would be "suicidal" but I`m more than happy to agree it would be risky.
Last season we had : Two strikers, who are finished, one who is desperately trying to make the leap from two divisions down, one who`s made of glass and another one who doesnt even get into the box.
we cant have another one like that, to progress we need more fire power and a bit more creative guile. I`m sure you will agree on that.
The money has to be found to buy a striker and a creative player, this is where we differ, everyone has their own opinion as to how we do that.
Selling Rodwell and Jags. would be unpopular for many reasons - not to mention risky - but by virtue of the fact that they are English we will get a lot more for both than they are actually worth.
Thats the direction I would take, thats all
Karl#47
The 2.5 million we got for the sale of Vaughan has already gone the same way as the 3m we got for Pienaar, as will the 2-3 million we may get for each of the Nigerians. Our board have an incredible ability to make such amounts dissappear . . .But they would have a much harder job explaining how 40m quid disappeared.
To put the amount you speak about into perspective ; By the end of play today SAF is likely to have spent 55m already. . and he has the best team in the country.
The 2.5 million we got for the sale of Vaughan has already gone the same way as the 3m we got for Pienaar, as will the 2-3 million we may get for each of the Nigerians. Our board have an incredible ability to make such amounts dissappear . . .But they would have a much harder job explaining how 40m quid disappeared.
To put the amount you speak about into perspective ; By the end of play today SAF is likely to have spent 55m already. . and he has the best team in the country.
I saw the England U21 game last weekend at Southampton and amongst layer sof his own age Rodwell shone. He strolled the midfiled and everything went through him.
He lost his marker with nonchalant ease and played the simple pass when required but also put through some lovely defence splitters including one on the run from his own half to the edge of the opposition box that the winger somehow contrived to waste.
He was much better than Henderson or Jones and I couldnt believe he didnt get the M.o.m over Smalling who looked clumsy and ponderous.
I think people expect too much of him too soon and go tired of hearing the negativity from behind me at some games this season.
Keep him and bring on more kids around him!
He lost his marker with nonchalant ease and played the simple pass when required but also put through some lovely defence splitters including one on the run from his own half to the edge of the opposition box that the winger somehow contrived to waste.
He was much better than Henderson or Jones and I couldnt believe he didnt get the M.o.m over Smalling who looked clumsy and ponderous.
I think people expect too much of him too soon and go tired of hearing the negativity from behind me at some games this season.
Keep him and bring on more kids around him!
The Barcelona managed recently said something along the lines of- eventually a team tire of their coach and the coach tires of his team.Asuming that Moyes is staying then the team needs freshened up. Under the current regime the only way to do this is to sell. Our thre most saleable assts are Rodwell, Jagielka and Fellaini. I think two of those most go(of course in an ideal world I wouldn't want this)
As Dave Wilson says more money will be paid for English players, therefore lets get as much as possible for Rodwell and Jagielka while they still have a good value. We need a striker and a hard midfield leader to start with. The team needs freshened up and toughened up.
As Dave Wilson says more money will be paid for English players, therefore lets get as much as possible for Rodwell and Jagielka while they still have a good value. We need a striker and a hard midfield leader to start with. The team needs freshened up and toughened up.
Andy@55 I hear what your saying but who replaces these proven settled players?
New signings are always a risk and theres no guarantee that they can improve the team.
Its no good having creative and goalscoring players if you need to score four to gain three points.
Dave himself admits its a risk, to big imo and could easily weaken the team not strengthen.
I dont remember any teams improving after selling there best players plus it becomes a bad habit.
I do agree that teams need freshening up and trying to improve and moving forward season after season but not at the expense of selling your best players.
Happening once is bad enough sell two or three and others will think the grass is greener elsewhere.
New signings are always a risk and theres no guarantee that they can improve the team.
Its no good having creative and goalscoring players if you need to score four to gain three points.
Dave himself admits its a risk, to big imo and could easily weaken the team not strengthen.
I dont remember any teams improving after selling there best players plus it becomes a bad habit.
I do agree that teams need freshening up and trying to improve and moving forward season after season but not at the expense of selling your best players.
Happening once is bad enough sell two or three and others will think the grass is greener elsewhere.
Dave @ 52. Of course, I agree that we need a decent striker. I also agree that Jags, being English, would fetch a lot of money. However, I don't see how selling the best defender would strengthen the team overall. So we score more goals at one end but ship more at the other? If Heitinga could fill Jags's shoes, then maybe, but despite the fact that he is a Dutch international, I don't rate him.
Can't jump, pseudo hard man and not committed - he'll be gone if things don't work out for him.
Eric @51, I agree. I am a big critic of Hibbert who again I don't believe is as great a defender as people make out (but that's the subject of another thread). The difference for me though is that I will allow a centre back to hoof a ball occasionally but I want a full back to be a bit more confident on the ball. The days of fullbacks just being good defenders have long since gone - at least if you want to achieve a high league position / compete for trophies.
Can't jump, pseudo hard man and not committed - he'll be gone if things don't work out for him.
Eric @51, I agree. I am a big critic of Hibbert who again I don't believe is as great a defender as people make out (but that's the subject of another thread). The difference for me though is that I will allow a centre back to hoof a ball occasionally but I want a full back to be a bit more confident on the ball. The days of fullbacks just being good defenders have long since gone - at least if you want to achieve a high league position / compete for trophies.
Mark, if Rodwell is doing it at international level ( even though its the u21's ) why is it wrong to expect more from him at club level ?
Also, Henderson is doing the bizz for his club, thats why the shite are willing to splash big for him.
Wilshire has been immense for Arsenal, Jones is going to Man u for big money, so Fergie must see something in the lad.
These lads have moved up another level ability wise, Rodwell looks like he is going backwards.
Also, Henderson is doing the bizz for his club, thats why the shite are willing to splash big for him.
Wilshire has been immense for Arsenal, Jones is going to Man u for big money, so Fergie must see something in the lad.
These lads have moved up another level ability wise, Rodwell looks like he is going backwards.
Brian, its not wrong to have high expectations given the early hype but he is still very young and undeveloped (perhaps due to the coach?) Ive only seen him play in the one U21 but in that game he had more freedom in his role than I've seen at Everton. He started off as the left of two centre mids then moved to the wider right.
In the second half he was the defensive mid and ran the game from there. He looked much more relaxed and confident than I've seen him at Goodison.
To me he looked the finished article but I'm allowing for the youth of the opposition.
And I dont agree that Henderson is doing the bizz - I've heard the Sunnerlan fans were turning on him recently. He looked OK last week but nothing special!
Jones did look good though.
In the second half he was the defensive mid and ran the game from there. He looked much more relaxed and confident than I've seen him at Goodison.
To me he looked the finished article but I'm allowing for the youth of the opposition.
And I dont agree that Henderson is doing the bizz - I've heard the Sunnerlan fans were turning on him recently. He looked OK last week but nothing special!
Jones did look good though.
Karl/Ray
Its not as if we have been watertight at the back, or that we have shipped dramatically more when Jagielka has been sidelined.is the risk really so great ? I love it when local boys represent Everton so I dont want to see Rodwell gone either, its heart breaking, but what do we do ?
Evertonians have stayed incredibly loyal, but you dont have to stray from these pages to see their patience is clearly running out, there is already a shortfall in ST sales and if we start the season playing purposeless football through the lack of cutting edge I think the walk up fans will vote with their feet too.
Times are tough and if Everton want people to part with their hard earned, they have got to come up with more.
I really believe we are at a crossroads right now (cliche, I know) but we are not Man United or chelsea, we cant afford to hold on to our better players AND purchase quality additions. only by taking a calculated gamble can we hope to compete.
In the meantime if either of you win the Euro lottery . . .
Its not as if we have been watertight at the back, or that we have shipped dramatically more when Jagielka has been sidelined.is the risk really so great ? I love it when local boys represent Everton so I dont want to see Rodwell gone either, its heart breaking, but what do we do ?
Evertonians have stayed incredibly loyal, but you dont have to stray from these pages to see their patience is clearly running out, there is already a shortfall in ST sales and if we start the season playing purposeless football through the lack of cutting edge I think the walk up fans will vote with their feet too.
Times are tough and if Everton want people to part with their hard earned, they have got to come up with more.
I really believe we are at a crossroads right now (cliche, I know) but we are not Man United or chelsea, we cant afford to hold on to our better players AND purchase quality additions. only by taking a calculated gamble can we hope to compete.
In the meantime if either of you win the Euro lottery . . .
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1 Posted 08/06/2011 at 18:40:47
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