" We should take pride in not being so demanding". ? That is part of the problem, we should be more demanding. A lot of fans are happy with top half finishes; to me, that's a defeatest attitude and is part of what is stagnating us as a club.

Whilst a majority of fans are happy to bob along and pick up scraps here and there, the club will never be a force in English football.

I agree with you and the "losing interest in the club" i don't think it's losing or falling outta love with the club, it's merely frustration that we have nothing to look forward to each off-season; no signings, no nothing... and for the past 3 seasons I have felt this.

From where are these `proceeds` magically to appear? We`ll be lucky to bank £7M from outgoing players and the banks will grab most of that. The Super Six all have access to unlimited BORROWINGS as the cloud cukoo land of the Prem rolls on......

Anthony: Are any Arsenal fans demanding the club break its wage structure? I don't think a journos opinion should be conflated with a broad mass of supporters.

They may want new signings to replace certain players or to improve the team, but they don't want the long term future of their club put at risk. I think football fans should be given more credit on this issue.

"I think Everton fans should take pride in not being quite so demanding."

(...)

"if Moyes doesn't spend this summer my interest in the club is going to seriously wane"

Not being quite so demanding? Apparantly our current financial state is such that asking for spending whatsoever is very, very demanding!

Hard to stomach but true Dave, without seriously wealthy new owners then we will continue to be also rans, unable to break into the "big boys" club. We will stagnate, as 6th/7th is the best we are going to do at the moment. Some fans will romanticise about bringing in young local players and bargain basement buys in the hope they can be moulded into a top team but it ain't going to happen. Like it or not, football has moved on and we have been left behind... and the longer it goes on the more accepting fans are becoming of the situation.

Obviously we are not privy to the amount of 'proceeds' at Moyes?s disposal, but I'd hasten to guess that it isn't much and is also heavily reliant upon moving out Joey and the Yak.

Hardly the type of situation that is going to encourage the types of footballers that the side needs to improve, to come to Goodison.

It?s an embarrassment that the likes of Stoke, Sunderland and even Bolton can now outspend this club.

Liam is right: our finances are an embarrassment. And that is down to you know who. The likes of Wigan, Stoke and even bloody clubs in the Championship spend more than us.

I don't think I'd want us to spend £50-odd million on British "kids" even if we had it. Carroll looks injury prone to me and I don't know too much about Henderson.

Anthony, we haven't spent a fortune but we have more than a bargain basement squad. Without our usual appalling start we would have been challenging for a Champions league place. We underachieved last season in what was our best and possibly last chance of success while Kenwright clings to power.
Others are spending and will inevitably pass us but things might have been different.

Andy # 10... I don't know how old you are but blue-tinted specs are not helping you in being realistic. The squad is seriously short and we have no proper cover for many positions: Baines stands out as he has had no cover since Lescott went... Lescott could play well at both left back and centre back.

A lot of our players are ageing and need replacement sooner rather than later. Our youngsters are not up to it at present and some will never be up to it!! We also have injury problems which are chronic... Saha and possibly others.

We loan out a football team and bring in zilch just to lower the wage bill. How on earth could we be challenging for top 4 status when we struggle to put a quality team out for all our Premier League fixtures? Take them damn specs off and get real!!!

I've followed EFC since 1948 which is very probably before you were born and I played at Division Three standard. I happily parted with good money when we had an ambitious board but now we cannot compete with Stoke, Sunderland, Bolton, Newcastle etc etc when it comes to transfers in... WHY???

The club rake in good money every week and re-invest nowt!! I do not go along with your ostrich head in the sand optimism ? just take a good, hard look at our threadbare squad and explain to me where we are going to put out a quality first team and a bench of seven decent quality subs.

BK is muddling through and hoping for the best from the Penn and Teller of the Premier League... Davy Moyes, who has pulled more rabbits out of the hat than Tommy Cooper!!!

Are Stoke Sunderland or Bolton going to finish ahead of us this year? Sunderland have just sold Henderson, Bolton will probably sell Cahill...

Oh but yes ? everyone expects Everton to achieve the economic miracle of continually buying top quality and paying them wages without ever selling quality.

Trevor, I agree with you and, believe me, I have no ostrich like optimism about this coming season. I was merely suggesting that last season with a better start we could have done better. Yes, our squad is threadbare and I see no way out of this. David Moyes stands between Kenwright and oblivion.

While Moyes pulls rabbits out of the hat, Kenwright will hang on. My dilemma is that the alternative to Moyes doing this might be disastrous.

#1, asking for a few signings is not the same as demanding trophies. To suggest I am part of the problem is ridiculous.

#3, you are a clown, if we sold 4 players for maybe £15 million, I would bet that Moyes would get some money to play with, and you know that.

#4, if you read the article by Phil Mcnulty on the BBC website, you will see that below are reams of posts form Arsenal fans that are just as demanding as I have stipulated.

#5, for some revenue from player sales to be spent on new signings, the financial state of the club does not have to change.

#9, I agree that Henderson is overrated, but I'd rather see players develop within a club than simply be bought at the top of their game.

#10, who mentioned a bargain basement squad?!

#11, less of the ageism pleae; we all want the same thing. It's just some of us are more realistc than others.

Young Premier League talent is very expensive. Especially if it's English.

We have no money. It's looking unlikely that we are going to raise much through sales. Not much we can do if no bids come in. At very best we might raise £8M from Vaughan, Yak and Yobo but even that looks unlikely.

Best hope is that some of our youngsters have a storming run pre-season and give Moyes some realistic options for the big kick-off.

Anthony, First you say, "I think most fans are agreed that Bily and Johnny should be shipped out (interest permitting)."

Then you say, "I never thought I'd say it but I admire that the Liverpool board are trying to build a young squad rather than simply buying up the top players."

Sorry mate but those two statements just don't go together and I'll tell you why.

Firstly, love him or hate him, Johnny has rarely played in his natural position. Not all players can fulfill roles in other positions in the line-up. I see JH as the natural successor to Distin and think he will do well next to Jags (if indeed we keep him).

Now I don't wish to presume or second guess Davey boy but the acquisition of Bily Kickabolokoff was all about the future and players in and around the periphery of the current first eleven. Moyes has seen his mentor (SAF) do this countless times and judging by your RS line you must agree with me.

Bily will come good; it's just not his time yet. His time will come. Which ever way we look at it, we've got zilch funds and as such Moyes has to get the formation of the next squad. Moyes's tactics, his motivational skills etc are an argument for another day, but he knows that he has an ageing squad and even with no dosh knows it needs to be replaced. This is why he bought Bily. Oh, and because no-one else can shoot.

At some point in the future current banking regimes will change. Loans will be called in. All debts will have to be paid. Who can say with any certaincy that Man U won't become a Leeds, or Abramski will be called away by Mother Russia (Putin) and pull the plug. What happens if the RS don't qualify for the CL for the next five years (hope hope) and the Yanks do a runner? These and many other scenarios tell me that football is a fickle business with fickle fans ? and I know cos I'm one of them!

Times change... dynasties fall... and if you don't think so go and check out the once Man U of Argentina ? River Plate.

Andy Crooks, Is that really you or has someone hijacked your computer? For what it's worth, I totally agree with you. We could still have qualified for Europe with 3 games to go last season and with a slightly better start, we would have. I don't know what your age has to do with anything. Trevor, you need to get real and stop thinking this club has money to spend. WE ARE SKINT!!!

Andy # 12... I'm sorry for being so hard on your optimism but I for one do not want us to play in Europe UNLESS we bring some strength into the squad. We are NOT equiped to compete with teams who have two good players for every position at LEAST!! I only want us to get into Europe when we have a realistic chance to compete and not just fall at the first or second hurdle.

Look at Spurs for an example: Harry Redknapp has signed a whole plethora of top players from far and wide and will do so again and again... WITHOUT REAL SUCCESS.

We go into every season on a wing and a prayer... the players we signed, eg, Heitnga and Bily were signed unapposed and ? despite Heitinga's public statements ? no one is interested in him!! 'NUFF SAID!

The only players worth good money in today's market are Baines, Rodwell and Jagielka.... they are needed by US. We should get rid of the players who are out on loan first and sign a couple of proven Premier League standard players with low mileage to freshen up and strengthen the squad BEFORE any clap trap about Europe. Make sure we stay in the Premier League and hopefully have a decent domestic cup run.

Jon, #15, on the face of it, maybe it does appear that I contradict myself. But the key is always in the detail.

I want rid of Heitinga and Bily becasue of their wages and possible respective transfer fees.

We are skint. We aren't Man U, or even Liverpool, so we need all hands on deck. We can wait for young players that cost peanuts, to develop on £10,000 a week, but we don't have the luxury of waiting for expensive players that are on a premium to come good. This is evidenced by the fact that we loaned out a number of senior players last season to reduce the wage burden.

BIly is not a PL player; even if he was, Moyes wouldn't play him in his correct position! Hetinga is a decent centre-back but we have more pressing issues, like the desperate need for wide players, a playmaker and a striker.

I know it seems reactionary and short-sighted, but last season was the season for this squad to prove itself. It floundered. We need a fresh approach. Personally, I'd flog Cahill, Saha, maybe even Arteta. It would reduce the wage bill drastically, and possibly bring in decent money.

Trev, so to buy players you need money, yeah? So can you tell me that Spuds made no money from the distance they went in the Champions League. Sorry mate but if we'd have gone that far in the CL then we'd have had a fair few bob to buy top or semi top players. It's called an upward spiral.

Once you're on this particular conveyer belt all else is irrelevant.

Anthony, I agree with a lot of what you say (18). But first we need to have a squad. Who can say when we've sold these players that we will buy better players? Don't bank on it mate.

You are spot on when talking about wingers and I'm sure Trev will agree. When a team comes to the Old Lady and parks the bus then it is FAST and skillful wingers that are the only players that will serve a parking ticket to said busses.

A playmaker... Yes, but who? Now it's Arteta (supposedly) but, as for the future, I see Bily. Just my humble oponion (fried of course with some mushrooms).

The most worrying aspect of EFC is it's vulnerability; if we discover 10 Wayne Rooneys this summer and blaze a scorching trail through the division ? how many would be here next year?

Seeing Clichy leave Arsenal for City today just reinforces the impact of financial muscle.

There really is no room to manoeuvre with the keystone cops in charge. This business about us not really being for sale is a perpetual millstone round the neck of this club ? we will never recover till this is resolved.

Fair play Jon, I'm glad someone actually considered what I wrote tbh. I'd love to see Bily become the new Van der Vaart (not likely but possible?).

Selling Arteta would be sad but I don't see where else we can generate immediate cash. Maybe Rodwell? I know he's another young one but I don't see him setting the world alight.

Anthony: a ream of responses to a blogpost is hardly conclusive proof. There are reams of anti-BK posts and responses on TW but that doesn't mean that the majority want him out.

Bily's shite.

#24

I think we have had this problem before. You see, there is very little conclusive proof for any of the issues that are widely debated on fan websites.

We all have to come to our own conclusions about what is going on in the world of football based on our own limited information and biases, and I would imagine this is why such a range of views exist. Hence, fooball and issues related can be fun to debate, and should not in my opinion be take too serisously.

I stand by what I said regards Arsenal fans though, because the ones I know (weak anecdotal evidence) believe that they have the right to win trophies.

As yet, my randomised controlled trial investigating this matter is incomplete (and yet to begin).

Anthony 23. I just want to pick up on what you say about raising funds: The only possible person is Arteta? How much do you assume we would get for him now exactly? Cahill wouldn't sell for anything, and who exactly would buy Saha?

For me, the obvious sale is Jagielka or Rodwell. Both would command an inflated fee and there would be interest in either. Jags is getting on; if we could get £12-15M from Arsenal, we ought to jump at it. In Heitinga and Rodwell we have ready made replacements anyway. With Arteta's loss of form and injury record, I think we are looking at no more than £6M if we could convince him to go.

You might be right Mark.

For me, as well as selling to raise funds, reducing the wage bill would be a priority, so as to avoid the debacle of the recent January transfer window.

Jags is 29, but CBs do tend to outlast other outfield players, and he is certainly better than Heitinga.

My order of priority for selling, if other clubs were interested would be...

1. Rodwell (inflated price)
2. Bily (as yet shite)
3. Saha (injuries/salary)
4. Cahill (4-5-1/salary)

I would keep Yakubu (and Yobo looks to be gone already).

The players who are probably worth a bit:

Baines ? right age, great season, and English: I think far too important for us to contemplate selling unless it's in the £25M bracket and Citeh have just bought another left back.

Fellaini ? right age, still not peaked... but the closest thing to Viera in the Prem: problems with injury (or is that a cover so no-one will buy an injured player?); again an important player for us, one to build a team around in the future... £25mill at least.

Rodwell ? potential, potential, potential: sorry, to be a great player he should be doing it now. If we can get £15 -£20M, I'd be happy.

Jagielka ? Cracking defender, bit of a hoofball merchant: for £15M I'd snatch their fucking hands off and stick Johnny H with Distin and start playing out from the back.

I can't see anybody else worth over £10M in our team . Mikey & Timmy are too old to get big money for (plus Mikey had a poor season).

I Dont mind if Jags or Rodwell go as long as we can get a wide player & striker in; my choices would be (bearing in mind money and availability): N'Zogbia ? blows hot and cold: but, when he's hot, he's brilliant; and Bellamy ? possibly on a loan deal: he's got pace, scores goals wherever he goes, and can play upfront on his own or coming in off the wing. To those who say "Oh, I wouldn't have him" ? tell me this: ... WHO???

I agree with your sentiment, Iain.

Still, £1M for Saha, £6M to send Bily back to Russia, and £3M for Cahill to go to the US or Dubai for a swansong and we could probably afford your targets without selling our younger/better players.

I'd still sell Rodwell though if £15M was on the table. I just don't see what the big deal is with him (oh, well he's big; I see that...).

I think the majority of fans are too idealistic rather than realistic. Fans want their team to win and rightly so but they are often far too impatient in allowing for it to come about. This is borne from the developement of the game. There used to be a time when a league season would start and any of about 8 or 9 teams would have a chance of winning it. All it needed was a few good kids, a bit of luck in the transfer market (nearly wholly restricted to Britain and Ireland) and a good manager.

The same formula will not bring the same success now. Billionaire investors do, new stadiums do, sustained Champions League qualification does. Arsenal fans are too impatient. They had their glory days not so long ago but, surprise surprise, their barren spell has coincided with the building of their new stadium. So Arsene has to cut back on the transfer pot for a few years.

Out of all the top sides, they are the best placed to develop without billionaire backers. Little debt, great stadium, good manager. Perhaps Wenger has had a look at forecasts of potential future markets and decided that creating a team of Wilsheres from within is the only way to get close to the Barcelona-type model ? rather than restructuring your team of stars every year, like Man Utd and Chelsea do.

I doubt many Arsenal fans would be moaning if in 5-10 years time Arsenal were the dominant force in English football due to their ability to compete within financial regulations, thanks to their wage structure, academy, and scouting networks... unreliant on marquee expensive imports.

To sum up: every football fan wants their team to be the best but, in the current economic climate, realistically only 3 teams in England (excluding Arsenal) can make this a reality in the near future. Accepting this and longer term albeit slower improvement of your club is not a lack of ambition, as many will cry, but just acceptance of reality.

Add Brighton to the list of clubs out-spending us this summer! They also have a shiny new stadium. Frigging Brighton!

It's saying a lot when a League One side, without the benefit of Sky money, can splash out a few million on a player, and yet we can't.

I still can't fathom how we got into this mess. We have a relatively tight wage structure... we get the Sky millions... we've sold more than we've bought over the last couple of years... yet we still have to sell to buy.

What sort of a mess would we be in if a certain Wayne Rooney hadn't come through our ranks?

Kenwright is a joke.

Got to disagree with Jon Cox.

Firstly, Tottenham had huge spending power, even before they qualified for the CL. It is incorrect to imply that they did it on the cheap and reaped the rewards. Since at least 2003, they have the 3rd highest net transfer spend of all English clubs... behind only City and Chelsea.

Secondly, it would be foolish to suggest that Everton should attempt to take a similar route, and for a couple of reasons. The first is that the cost is greater than the reward. Spurs' net spend is about £130M between 2003 and when they qualified for the Champions League. In the same time, Everton have a net spend of circa £23M (so more than £100m less ? or just 18% of Spurs' expenditure).

Now, Spurs earned an estimated £36M from CL this year, and add a very generous £10M for domestic TV and gate receipts, and there is a shortfall of approx £54M. Spurs didn't qualify for Champions League this year so won't be winning that money this year... So they are out of pocket. That isn't the end of the world as they have wealthy board members funding them. But, if Everton found themselves in a similar situation, it would be sell sell, sell, and championship....

"I think Everton fans should take pride in not being quite so demanding."

More like a source of shame that so many accept mediocrity and the lies that Kenwright spouts.

........so go out and find this billionaire with money to burn which you all seem to crave! Meanwhile,we`ll just look to Bill and Davey to keep the lid on things.Of course we`ve missed the boat but I still maintain that was down to lack of foresight by the regime in power when the Prem was established.I know Bill was on the Board but he was the token sop to all those who demanded the presence of a genuine supporter at top table.
Littlewoods eventually sold out to Johnson because he was reputed to have more money to invest.....and look where that got us!
Meanwhile,the ex-Littlewoods man Carter is to be honoured as a founder father of the Sky Bonanza!

Anthony #14, you say "#5, for some revenue from player sales to be spent on new signings, the financial state of the club does not have to change."

I really think a lot of Everton fans do not get it that there is another possibility - that we need to sell just to keep our financial state. Selling players does not mean we have money in the bank to buy new players. If the income without transfers is £75 million and the spending without transfers is £80 million, we'll need to have a net transfer revenue of £5 mil just to pay all the bills, right?

It is the main reason why I don't want to sell any of our first team -players. We won't use the money to buy new players who are just as good. We won't even use the money to repay loans (which would be a real bugger but at least is a step towards financial health). We will just use the money to pay the wages and to pay the interest on running loans!

There are two ways out of this: Kenwright selling up to a wealthy investor or selling players for silly money. For example if a bidding war on Rodwell between City, Chelsea and Man Utd would occur and we would fetch £40 million+, then we might use some money just to pay the bills, repay a big chunk of loans, and still have £15mil or so to buy new players. But that would only mean we'd be in the same trouble in two or three years time.

I hope to be surprised, I really do, but I just don't see it happening.

Richard #35, would you say we missed the boat with Kings Dock or do you think it would not have been a good move?
Were you for the move to Kirkby by the way and would you say that was a missed boat?

Eric #37. We certainly missed the boat with Kings Dock but we simply didn`t have the money (and believe me, it was several times the £30M that is mentioned on here!).

Yes, I was all for Kirkby and it has proved to have been our only hope of escaping from Goodison. It wasn`t the ideal solution but it was the only one on the table. I smile when I now read so much criticism of Goodison`s facilities coming from the very people who would object to moving anywhere!

Richard Dodd, I love the way you talk as though you have an inside knowledge on all things Everton, when your pathetic predictions have all turned out to come from the same place you talk from.

Face it, you are a happy with mediocre bollocks fan who thinks finishing 7th amounts to success. Kenwright is a lying jellyfish who will be the death of this club. Watch this space.

"I never thought I'd say it but I admire that the Liverpool board are trying to build a young squad rather than simply buying up the top players" ? I have 73.7 reasons why this statement is a little off. 3 players for £73.7m.... not trying to buy top players? Either these players are not top players or the board are that inept when deciding on tranfer amounts ? either way, not consistent with your statement.

Doddy, we don't need a billionaire ? just a board that is interested in the club not themselves.

I have never come across a board at any club so bereft of ideas and drifting aimlessly with no plans for the club.

They act like a Chester City board of directors rather than Everton Football Club.

John Moores at the age of 94 had more gumption in his little toe than Kenwright's got in total.

Sorry, Doddy, but that is a hell of a claim your making about the ringfenced contribution toward the Kings Dock. Who told you that, Ian Ross?

"Look at Spurs for an example: Harry Redknapp has signed a whole plethora of top players from far and wide and will do so again and again... WITHOUT REAL SUCCESS!"

Ok Trevor let's look at Spurs shall we: any new mega signings been announced in the last couple of weeks? Not that I can recall. Indeed the main "headlines" around Spurs appear to be which players will be leaving. Wasn't it last week that Chelsea made a bid for Modric? 'Arry turned it down... but how long before Chelsea come back with an improved offer?

I read something about Spurs on the BBC website summary last week: it appears that it is very likely that, in order for 'Arry to make some big signings, he will have to offload two or three, which might include Keane and Defoe.

There are very few clubs that are just buyers at the moment ? it seems to be just Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool. Sunderland have been mentioned as outspending us: really? ? didn't they have to sell Henderson before Bruce could bring anyone in? And anyway, if success was based on the number of signings, then Steve Bruce would be Manager of the Year every season and Sunderland would be in the Champions League.

Yes, it's frustrating that we haven't brought in any new players yet... but would you rather the club took out further loans like Leeds United did? Look where it got them. I would rather have financial reality than fantasy. There have been too many clubs that have got themselves into difficulty by spending money that they didn't have.

And as regards Arsenal ? funny isn't it that Wenger hasn't won a trophy in 6 years is it? And the critics are having a go. I seem to recall Shankly went from 1966 to 1973 without a trophy ? did he come in for the same type of critical reaction? A different era? Yes, but the principles of the game are surely the same.

In The Independent, another article that was critical of Arsenal gave the example of Cole being astounded that Arsenal wouldn't offer him more than £55,000 a week and Chelsea would offer him £90,000. Well I doubt whether any Gooners have missed him ? nor will they miss Clichy.

And Jay, John Moores may well have contributed to the financial problems that started in the early 1990s ? he didn't exactly make any great provision for the future direction/leadership of the board that was to follow him, did he?

#34,

I am proud to say that I don't expect the club I support to win trophies. There are lots of teams and only a few trophies. I learned this when I was maybe 6 years old. It must be hard for you to function as an adult with such naive expectations.

#40,

Henderson and Carroll were expensive, but they are young and still improving. I do admire that Liverpool are at least trying to buy these sorts of players. It takes more balls than buying the Galactico-esque types that Man City and Chelsea are being linked to. Even Suarez was a risk having little experience of the top European leagues.

It takes balls all right....Boss, boss lend us £35m to buy a fella who is injured. Balls indeed.

#45, You'll find that the fee for Carroll was condtional; i.e. Liverpool asked Chelsea for £15mil plus Carroll.

Shrewd business as far as I can tell. They bagged a decent English forward and humped Chelsea (a potential rival) at the same time.

Yeah but Chelsea ended up with Torres who is infinitely better than Carroll ever will be. Chelsea humped Liverpool of both their biggest commercial name, best player, and most attractive propsect for new signings.

Richard #38, King's Dock was the only solution on the table at the time so by your reasoning we should have moved heaven and earth to secure it, and it WOULD have been IDEAL. Instead, Kenwright scuppered the only chance that we had to get the best stadium in the country.

Also the cow shed in Kirkby was to cost much more than the 'virtually free' that was spouted by the board.

So tell us what has happened to the £78 million that Everton would have had to find for Kirkby and why it hasn't been spent on Goodison?

If we don't have the dough, we don't. Let's see what the season brings.

Moyes has brought in a bunch of new ones these last 2 years.

As we've seen with the big money clubs who've bought talent for top dollar, they're really doing no better than Moyes on half a shoe-string.

Wed've been Top 4 if we'd only put the damn ball in the net. Moyes landed a 3rd tier player who scored in double digits in his first year. Other young scoring talent was sent out for seasoning.

Stand fast. Let's see how it plays out this next season. If money was the be-all end-all, how come those tossing it around with abandon aren't doing so much better than EFC?