Untill the 12th of never and that's a long, long time.

An eternity.

Personally, I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of the club now; they have more spin doctors than "New Labour" did.

He obviously never read The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf' in his pre-Corrie days.

A lot of Evertonians now take Bill's and by extension Elstone's word with a bucket of salt.

Steven, besides Doddy they are club plants, look back at the numerous posts around the DK debacle and we had just the same thing, not sure how many pseudonyms Ian Ross, Elstone and Kenshite can think up but each of those disappeared as quickly as they came.

I think they all dissappear because after a while they realise 'wow, these guys really are lying little dickheads, and im praising them!' You only hear a few pro board nowadays, spouting Birmingham, Portsmouth etc. as excuses.

Sadly, some the responses above demonstrate you're not interested in hearing or listening to the other side. Accusing them of being "club plants" is a pathetic way of denigrating their arguments.

Let me try and sum up from what I've read on here:

? Kenwright and the Board are actually doing okay in terms of managing the club finances under extremely difficult circumstances.

? Yes, there have been errors and cock-ups in the past, and things could have turned out differently but they didn't. We are where we are and we need to look forwards ? not backwards.

? All the so-called "crimes" are in the past. They are history. Yes, we could bleat on about them, ask for explanations... demand apologies. But what would that achieve? Precisely nothing.

? All we hear is that Kenwright must go. But there is no-one in the frame to take his place. An interim board has been mooted, but there is no public presence seeking those posts... and traditionally, board membership generally comes with share ownership.

? Despite bizarre stories and claims from Kenwright himself, there seems to be no-one interested in buying Everton shares off the major shareholders.

? Another claim is that money is mysteriously disappearing, but the club have explained this is not the case.

? The lack of transfer funds is simply because Everton must sell to buy. The other comparable clubs buying players are doing so because they have sold other players.

The polarization of views is hard for some to understand but we've seen it on here many times before: faced with identical information, people reach diametrically different conclusions ? mainly by a combination of ignoring or discounting some of that info, while placing greater emphasis or belief in other parts... in a word, spin.

Personally, I don't think there are any easy answers or easy solutions. That's not what many people want to hear, though.

Addressing the OP question, I think there are some decent attempts being made to present the other viewpoint; however, some of our regulars don't like it and are doing their best to shout them down.

Stephen, If really are interested in the opposite position, I would suggest reading the posts from Steve Jones on the Silent Majority thread (assuming you can get past his unfortunate use of the label 'morons' for some of our fans).

Michael, I am disappointed in your response. Very few on this site use the term "club plants". I have no doubt if this happened you would recognize and expose it.

Frankly. Michael, I don't believe anyone is shouted down here. It is an open forum for free debate and I really think you are playing devil's advocate. The other viewpoint is simply untenable.

Michael you really should temper the fact that the DK hearings did bring several "dodgy" if you don't want to use "club employee" that argued the toss and disappeared like mist as soon as DK went pop. Remember Gerard Madden? I'll give you a reminder - http://s90193.gridserver.com/season/08-09/comment/fan/9388.html he came on spouted utter rubbish then disappeared.

Gavin,

I think this is different: we've had a 'Gary Rimmer' posting for the last 5 or 6 years... not very prolifically, but he does seem genuine.

I think you are risking a massive loss of credibility to your arguments when you descend to this level, Gavin. Surely it's obvious that there are Evertonians out there who see things as he does. Why do you not accept that? We understand that you don't agree (Duh!), but why seek to denigrate his post in this way?

Michael: I accept what you say ? there will never be 100% agreement on anything and even Steve Jones has a point, even if it's riddled with contradictions and rather confused. If Gary Rimmer's only argument is about numbers for each side then lt's time to claim the debate over if he doesn't want to discuss them.

I've spent a lot of time debating the pros and mostly cons of Kenwright's reign and in truth I want it to end; it's always the same old issues again and again with tempers fraying on each side. Everyone knows the facts, and everyone has an opinion even if they can't back it up with facts.

The main problem is, if he goes, what then? An Interim board is not the best option but it's the only option thats been put forward. All I know is that, in the short term, there must be some investment in the playing side; if not, then the club's in serious trouble.

I am with Gavin on this, those people arguing for Kirkby only ever posted on Kirkby.

I remember looking into it quite a bit and they never got involved in basic on the field topics and as soon as it went tits up they where gone.

To be honest I cannot blame the club if they do do it but they stick out like sore thumbs to me, obviously it must be only the odd one but surely its naieve to say it does not happen.

Paul: That may have true then, but not now. Doddy is a special case though, bless him. The club have Bluekipper on their side, so why bother posting on TW?

I meant the Maddens of this world on the Kirkby arguements, not those genuinely in favour of Kirkby.

Don't know if it's coincidence but since a concerted focus ie "The Peoples Group" has surfaced I've never seen so much pro-active Kenwright stuff on this site.

Who knows?

I do know they don't like holes being picked in their sermons.

Teehee!

In the short term, there must be some investment in the playing side; if not, then the club's in serious trouble.

David 11,

Sorry for nicking part of your post but it strikes a chord. Considering what Moyes has had to work with, when compared to other clubs he has worked wonders to keep us where we are and maybe he is a victim of his own success.

Kenwright is a fan but obviously doesn't have the money or the accumun to run the club and support the manager. Thats about it in a nutshell Unless he is holding out for the holy grail, which is global TV rights.

Just popped this on another thread, QPR looking at potential new owners, Bernie Eccleston looking to sell his 69% of QPR for £100m - 12 years and waiting

Michael (6) - "Yes, there have been errors and cock-ups in the past, and things could have turned out differently but they didn't. We are where we are and we need to look forwards ? not backwards".

You of all people expressing full support of Moyes. Who'd thunk it? I'm inspired sir and in full agreement.

A fast start and 10 more goal will put us in the money. The way I root for my team, 10 goals might be 15 and the pressure on the other guy, not us. Why not? We have the talent.

Last person I expected to read so positive an assessment of the coming season. Good on you Michael. Doubters take note.

Jimmy ? I know English is a second language for you, so some of the original subtleties may have 'gotten' Lost in Translation: it may therefore come as a bit of a shock that I was not talking about Moyes, whose failings are also myriad.

Nor was I actually providing this as my own opinion but as that of others.

Nor does it relate in any way to the upcoming season.

Nice try, but no cigar. Perhaps your dubious skills as a facilitator would be better used working with the paragons of democracy [cough!] you and your Ilk have placed in a position of vast power and who now seem intent on bringing down the world's biggest economy with their equally mindless tomfoolery.

Anyone know how long I might be waiting?

Watch this space.

Michael
Whither Max Main, Rupert Tarlington, Gerrard Madden?
EJ reckoned all were the moderator from the Red Echo Everton Forum
It does seem as if, when the going gets tough, Bill sends some of his staff out of the bunker
(apart from Doddy, who is permanently out of the bunker, bless him)

"Yes, there have been errors and cock-ups in the past, and things could have turned out differently but they didn't. We are where we are and we need to look forwards ? not backwards."

I just don't understand how anyone can have any trust in the current board to take things forwards. Kenwright's track record is so poor, he has done nothing to inspire any confidence that the club is doing anything other than moving backwards.

It might not be a great analogy but it seems a bit like a beaten wife mentality. I forgive him because he said he loves me and he won't do it again. The beaten Evertonian is the same - "I forgive Bill because he said he loves the club and he won't repeat his mistakes."

I don't think those who support Kenwright genuinely think he's doing or has done a great job. They just fear the alternative and think 'better the devil you know'. The club is still solvent, we've finished 5th, 5th,8th and 7th. Any other year 7th would get you European qualification, so there's no crisis on the pitch (yet).

But I see the club rotting before our eyes. Our better 1st team players are all starting to age and are rapidly losing any resale value to help fund future player purchases. Other first team players are leaving and not being replaced. Season ticket sales are down whilst these mysterious operating costs are going up.

So you either bury your head in the sand and keep your fingers crossed (like Bill) or you start to point out the fact we're heading into shit creak and no one has any paddles.

Michael Kenrick ? I think you do a great job running ToffeeWeb. But posts 6 and 7 are - imo - more than a great job.

I just got home and read 'Silent Majority' and thought I should stop visiting this site. Your having taken the time - in post 6 - to summarise what others see as key issues changed my mind.

Alan Clarke, you summed it up perfectly with that beaten housewife shout.

Besides the historic lies, deceipt and cockups, there are real questions currently unanswered:

1. What plans do the board have for taking the club forward or will we continue to rely on player sales to keep the club afloat? ? a policy which even Kenwright and Elstone admitted 2 years ago was unsustainable.

2. Why have unexplained operating costs risen from £1 million to £23 million last year?

3. What is BCR Sports function in the running of EFC and who is behind it?

4. Why was the Park End wall demolished and what plans are there to remedy this eyesore and embarrassment?

5. Why will the board not consider a rights issue in the supposed absence of a buyer/investor?

6. Why do the club not reintroduce AGMs?

7. Why is the club so dismissive of its supporters?

8. why do the club continue to lie to the supporters, eg "There is a transfer fund for new players" ? Robert Elstone; "We will do business early to get new players through the preseason program" ? David Moyes?

Micky (19) - Knock it off. You saw and know well I was kidding with you.