Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Is Moyes secretly trying to save our club?
99 Comments: I was reading various posts...
Blah, blah, blah... crap/boring football,
Blah, blah, blah... no money,
Blah, blah, blah... crap board,
Blah, blah, blah... Moyes/Kenwright out,
Blah, blah, blah... £150 - £160 million valuation???
I just find it hard that a guy with such passion and drive for the club a couple of years ago could look so defeatist now. I know a lot of people have said that the writing has been on the wall for a few seasons; I however believe that the ?this is the best squad we have ever had? quote from the start of last season was the turning point. Once we got off to the bad start at Blackburn, and we weren?t challenging for anything, the dour demeanour began to raise it?s ugly head. It seems to have been downhill ever since!
Then it hit me like an epiphany: Could Moyes actually be helping to sell the club by playing dour uninspiring football and thus pushing down the value of the club? Surely he must know the value Kenwright has on the club!
Could he be risking short term losses for long term gains?
Is he secretly sticking two fingers up to the guy upstairs?
Danny Biddle, Posted 11/11/2011 at 17:09:15
Comments
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Hmmm, how about you put the tin of paint down, open all the windows and have a nice long walk in the fresh air, trust me, you'll feel a lot better, after the thumping headache anyway.
You were certainly hit by something but I don't think it was an epiphany.
Moyes is just a one-trick pony who's now past his sell-by date. He plays the long game which in the past has had a consequence of enough points over a season to justify a reasonable finish. That's the hook though, it'll only ever be a reasonable finish and, as time and evolution of other teams around him happens, his set ways have been found out and found wanting. He's no jedi with long-term plans to use his gameplay to influence the price of the club.
Danny if you're right Moyes is doing a great job!
Never thought I'd say those words.
Never thought I'd say those words.
Quite right, Gavin. I think you've just found a new straw to clutch at, Danny. Unfortunately, that's probably a reflection of the pitiful state the club's in now.
Trevor, I've actually seen quite a few posts like this in the past from those that shall not be named but who like to apologise and make excuses for the chosen one. When the excuses run out and Moyes can't be defended anymore we get the, "Oh it's all his great plan to show the board up for not investing in the team..." ? you really couldn't make it up.
The genius of Moyes has no bounds, I see it now, he's lulling everyone into a false sense of security, and then, near the end of the season, we'll beat beat one of the sky 4 1-0 at home and the master plan will be complete, hooohaaaahaaa!! !The Moysiah strikes again!!!
The genius of Moyes has no bounds, I see it now, he's lulling everyone into a false sense of security, and then, near the end of the season, we'll beat beat one of the sky 4 1-0 at home and the master plan will be complete, hooohaaaahaaa!! !The Moysiah strikes again!!!
Robbie
One thing I know, is it's pointless trying to change minds about Moyes via cogent argument - there's always an excuse.
But more people are openly saying now they've had enough of the football he produces, no-one says we should be champions or even breaking the cartel of the monied clubs.
It's just this blinkered argument there's no way but the Moyes way - it's ridiculous.
One thing I know, is it's pointless trying to change minds about Moyes via cogent argument - there's always an excuse.
But more people are openly saying now they've had enough of the football he produces, no-one says we should be champions or even breaking the cartel of the monied clubs.
It's just this blinkered argument there's no way but the Moyes way - it's ridiculous.
Ermmm...
Is Moyes trying to covertly undermine his employer?..an employer who has given him the most secure contract he'll ever have in top flight football... an employer who has made him virtually unsackable on £75k a week... an employer who he continually promotes as the best there is...
Not very likely, is it?
Top marks though for turning incompetence into a virtue!
Is Moyes trying to covertly undermine his employer?..an employer who has given him the most secure contract he'll ever have in top flight football... an employer who has made him virtually unsackable on £75k a week... an employer who he continually promotes as the best there is...
Not very likely, is it?
Top marks though for turning incompetence into a virtue!
Danny it sounds like you could put a good spin on an earthquake
Nonsense mate. Everton are playing crap football because we have crap footballers compared to 6 or 7 other sides in the league. We have crap footballers because Moyes has had to try and look for bargains and buy relatively unkown and unproven players and hope they can prove themselves.
Crap footballers, my arse...
"Could Moyes actally be helping to sell the club by playing dour uninspiring football and thus pushing down the value of the club?"
If he's doing it to push down the value of the club, then the club must be worth buttons, considering he's been playing the football you mention for the last 10 years.
If he's doing it to push down the value of the club, then the club must be worth buttons, considering he's been playing the football you mention for the last 10 years.
Danny - I think you'll find if he's putting two fingers up to anyone, it's you.
And me.
And every other Evertonian.
Oh..and allowing the Sky audience to hear him whining about money and to watching him stick 11 behind the ball and hoping for a miracle (ie: City) suggests his two fingers aren't exactly being delivered 'secretly'.
(Personally, given his attitude this season, I feel it would be more subtle if he wore a t-shirt with 'fuck the lot of yer' on the front.)
And me.
And every other Evertonian.
Oh..and allowing the Sky audience to hear him whining about money and to watching him stick 11 behind the ball and hoping for a miracle (ie: City) suggests his two fingers aren't exactly being delivered 'secretly'.
(Personally, given his attitude this season, I feel it would be more subtle if he wore a t-shirt with 'fuck the lot of yer' on the front.)
It's nonsense to suggest that any future investor would be influenced by the form of the team. Any Prem team is worth the investment if they don't carry whopping debts. Everton claim they are almost debt-free which should make them an attractive investment if that is true.
I believe at this stage a new, creative, positive-thinking manager would go a long way in improving things. Moyes has had 10 years and, despite some astute buys, he has also made quite a few bad ones, and adopted a safety first strategy which is backfiring on all cylinders.
I believe at this stage a new, creative, positive-thinking manager would go a long way in improving things. Moyes has had 10 years and, despite some astute buys, he has also made quite a few bad ones, and adopted a safety first strategy which is backfiring on all cylinders.
Ciarán, are they crap footballers compared to last seasons top 6 or are you saying their players are crap compared to ours? Only 2 or 3 of our players would get into a top 6 side. Are you saying the likes of Ossie, Hibbert, Neville aren't crap and most of the others weren't plucked from lower or inferior leagues?
Perhaps the Moyes detractors would have more credibility if they acknowledged that Moyes has not been crap his entire tenure.
It is apparent that he has lost all motivation for the job and that it is now time to leave. However he should leave with the thanks of every Evertonian for turning us from perennial strugglers to a side that was challenging for Europe every year.
Whether he was capable of taking Everton further than he did will never be known because the board let us down by not investing in the squad after our fourth place finish, instead using the money to buy DM's loyalty.
It is apparent that he has lost all motivation for the job and that it is now time to leave. However he should leave with the thanks of every Evertonian for turning us from perennial strugglers to a side that was challenging for Europe every year.
Whether he was capable of taking Everton further than he did will never be known because the board let us down by not investing in the squad after our fourth place finish, instead using the money to buy DM's loyalty.
Steve (17), there's no reason at all why Moyes detractors need to 'acknowledege' anything, other that what they feel about Moyes performance right now.
The issue is not about the credibility of Moyes detractors, it is about the credibility of Moyes.
That simple.
As to him leaving with the thanks of every Evertonian, he probably will, but that is up to each individual and their standards (personally, I can't see many saying "Fuck off, I always thought you were a useless cunt even when we finished 4th", but each to their own)
Keep in mind, he's on tens of thousands A WEEK and what he definitely WILL leave with, is millions in the bank and a no doubt a decent enough job.
At the moment he's an incredibly well-paid manager who is not delivering and looks and sounds like he's out of ideas.
With what we as supporters pay, and what he's paid, I believe (on TW) we're entitled to say what we want, how we want (editors notwithstanding).
Right now the man is walking in treacle and dragging us all with him.
I personally believe it's gone stale and something needs to change if only for the sake of change.
The issue is not about the credibility of Moyes detractors, it is about the credibility of Moyes.
That simple.
As to him leaving with the thanks of every Evertonian, he probably will, but that is up to each individual and their standards (personally, I can't see many saying "Fuck off, I always thought you were a useless cunt even when we finished 4th", but each to their own)
Keep in mind, he's on tens of thousands A WEEK and what he definitely WILL leave with, is millions in the bank and a no doubt a decent enough job.
At the moment he's an incredibly well-paid manager who is not delivering and looks and sounds like he's out of ideas.
With what we as supporters pay, and what he's paid, I believe (on TW) we're entitled to say what we want, how we want (editors notwithstanding).
Right now the man is walking in treacle and dragging us all with him.
I personally believe it's gone stale and something needs to change if only for the sake of change.
Steve
"buying loyalty"
Shouldn't that be paying what he wanted or he'd put 2 fingers up to the lot of us?
Tend to go with Eugene that he's doing it anyway.
"buying loyalty"
Shouldn't that be paying what he wanted or he'd put 2 fingers up to the lot of us?
Tend to go with Eugene that he's doing it anyway.
Ian Tunstead, Rodwell, Baines,Drenthe and Fellaini are good footballers. Saha, Neville and Cahill were fine footballers who are now at least average. Our squad is under performing but not crap. David Moyes is not getting anything like the best from his squad. He is stale and appears utterly devoid of inspiration. He is not earning his huge salary and we would be better without him.
For the same money I defy anyone to suggest there is not better out there.
For him to be secretly saving our club would require a level of guile which he appears incapable of. He is quite openly destroying our club. The start to this season is indefensible. We have been poor in every part of the team. Can anyone name a player who is having a good season? Collectively shite is the only way to describe them.
For the same money I defy anyone to suggest there is not better out there.
For him to be secretly saving our club would require a level of guile which he appears incapable of. He is quite openly destroying our club. The start to this season is indefensible. We have been poor in every part of the team. Can anyone name a player who is having a good season? Collectively shite is the only way to describe them.
Andy, look who we have played, he's got no money, he'll turn it around, he always does.
Just thought I would get them in before someone else does Andy.
Just thought I would get them in before someone else does Andy.
Eugene, if it is not about the credibility of each sides argument then the Moyes detractors should stop their childish attacks on those who still support him and allow them their opinion.
and don't claim that calling them apologists isn't childish because we allknow that it is.
and don't claim that calling them apologists isn't childish because we allknow that it is.
Danny is very obviously posting with his keypad in his cheek.
I spotted the sarcasm and irony, Dan, even if no one else did.
I spotted the sarcasm and irony, Dan, even if no one else did.
Steve, apologist may be childish in your opinion, but so is the ' 0.02% ' that has been given to anyone anti - Moyes.
Ian, the club does not have crap footballers. The side has many international quality players.
I recall a few seasons ago getting out-footballed by the mighty Brentford. Infact, we seem to get out-footballed by almost everyone.
How the team plays is a pure reflection of the coach and his tactics and attitude. In addition, Moyes has made some bad signings with the money he has been given, and the squad has no pace, no balance.
We desperately need some pace, some creativity and a coach willing to allow the players to attack. Playing 1 up front, 40 yard hoofs and incredibly slow build up play is handicapping the players before a ball has been kicked.
I recall a few seasons ago getting out-footballed by the mighty Brentford. Infact, we seem to get out-footballed by almost everyone.
How the team plays is a pure reflection of the coach and his tactics and attitude. In addition, Moyes has made some bad signings with the money he has been given, and the squad has no pace, no balance.
We desperately need some pace, some creativity and a coach willing to allow the players to attack. Playing 1 up front, 40 yard hoofs and incredibly slow build up play is handicapping the players before a ball has been kicked.
Steve (22), sorry but imo, that is revisionist shite, incredibly one-eyed and trying desperately to grab some moral high-ground.
Or maybe I'm wrong and it is ONLY (as you infer!) 'Moyes detractors' guilty of 'childish attacks' (or..maybe by 'childish attacks' you mean someone who knocks a hole in a piss-weak argument?)
Fact: Initially when the first 'Moyes isn't god' sentiments appeared on TW, the reaction from many Moyes supporters (is that ok?) was not just childish, it was a staggering over-reaction.
For legitimately expressing HIS opinions HIS way, Tony Marsh was 'insane' etc.
Boy did HE ever get it in the neck!
Funny though, don't remember him ever whining about the stick.
I myself was a slavering. cage-rattling dog (or whatever it was the "I'm dead balanced honest" Alan Kirwan would have it).
Fine with me too, opinion expressed forcefully and emotionally - all for it.
The problem it seems comes when someone like you suggests that a forcefully or directly expressed opinion OPPOSITE to yours becomes..
"..stop their childish attacks on those who still support him and allow them their opinion".
THIS (imo) is disingenuous.
THIS (imo) is sneaky.
Because it suggests someone is trying to deny you something.
That you have an opinion but it's being denied.
Bullshit!
But if I'm wrong - WHO exactly has not been allowed their opinion?
My advice, stop acting like act like a tart.
If you think someone is talking shite, tell them AND...tell them why
If someone thinks you're talking shite - respond using facts if they exist (and if they don't, well it's your opinion versus theirs and you can choose to leave the debate at any time)
NOBODY is stopped expressing their opinion, but once you take the victim/martyr/tart stance (for me) anything valid you might have to say becomes void.
By the way, personally, I have never used 'apologists' because I've never seen it as accurate
Always felt 'excusers' would be more apt
Or maybe I'm wrong and it is ONLY (as you infer!) 'Moyes detractors' guilty of 'childish attacks' (or..maybe by 'childish attacks' you mean someone who knocks a hole in a piss-weak argument?)
Fact: Initially when the first 'Moyes isn't god' sentiments appeared on TW, the reaction from many Moyes supporters (is that ok?) was not just childish, it was a staggering over-reaction.
For legitimately expressing HIS opinions HIS way, Tony Marsh was 'insane' etc.
Boy did HE ever get it in the neck!
Funny though, don't remember him ever whining about the stick.
I myself was a slavering. cage-rattling dog (or whatever it was the "I'm dead balanced honest" Alan Kirwan would have it).
Fine with me too, opinion expressed forcefully and emotionally - all for it.
The problem it seems comes when someone like you suggests that a forcefully or directly expressed opinion OPPOSITE to yours becomes..
"..stop their childish attacks on those who still support him and allow them their opinion".
THIS (imo) is disingenuous.
THIS (imo) is sneaky.
Because it suggests someone is trying to deny you something.
That you have an opinion but it's being denied.
Bullshit!
But if I'm wrong - WHO exactly has not been allowed their opinion?
My advice, stop acting like act like a tart.
If you think someone is talking shite, tell them AND...tell them why
If someone thinks you're talking shite - respond using facts if they exist (and if they don't, well it's your opinion versus theirs and you can choose to leave the debate at any time)
NOBODY is stopped expressing their opinion, but once you take the victim/martyr/tart stance (for me) anything valid you might have to say becomes void.
By the way, personally, I have never used 'apologists' because I've never seen it as accurate
Always felt 'excusers' would be more apt
"Stop acting like a tart"
Even amidst a succinctly put argument you can come out with a comic gem, Eugene!
Even amidst a succinctly put argument you can come out with a comic gem, Eugene!
Spot on, Wayne.
Jagielka had a superb game against the World Champions just now and Jack Rodwell played with great panache when he came on.
With a more astute coach, our squad would rocket up that table.
Jagielka had a superb game against the World Champions just now and Jack Rodwell played with great panache when he came on.
With a more astute coach, our squad would rocket up that table.
Trevor #8
Robbie "Its pointless trying to change minds about Moyes via cogent argument"....yeah, Robbie, stick with Trevor's much more mature & reasoned approach and just resort to calling them "apologists"!
Robbie "Its pointless trying to change minds about Moyes via cogent argument"....yeah, Robbie, stick with Trevor's much more mature & reasoned approach and just resort to calling them "apologists"!
The moral highground argument Brendan? Read posts on this website and revel in the whoppers from both sides of the fence on just the Moyes subject, like Eugene says play your argument not rattle a collection tin and shove a copy of the "Moyes War Cry" at folk.
One of the maddest posts so far this season. By the way it's hardly a secret he is screwing things up; it's right there in front of you staring you in the face every time his team cross the white line.
Gavin #30
Moral highgound...me versus Trevor M. I'll claim it all day long. Now if you are talking the "Apologists" V the "0.02%"... yeah, we both fall well below NSNO,
Moral highgound...me versus Trevor M. I'll claim it all day long. Now if you are talking the "Apologists" V the "0.02%"... yeah, we both fall well below NSNO,
I don't see what's so offensive or childish about using the term 'apologist'. By it's very definition it refers to someone arguing in defence or justification of a person, policy or position. Not that I ever use the term but I don't really see why it strikes such a nerve with those who still believe in Moyes.
The newly adopted '0.02%' can't be considered offensive either because it's just...well...wank. It's like a term coined by some spin doctor for a totally out of touch Tory twat to spout repeatedly in the hope that it eventually catches on. It won't because it's just too forced and totally ineffective as a dismissive label. It basically has about as much Sting in it as Trudie Stylers arsehole after she's been shitting Quorn for a week.
The newly adopted '0.02%' can't be considered offensive either because it's just...well...wank. It's like a term coined by some spin doctor for a totally out of touch Tory twat to spout repeatedly in the hope that it eventually catches on. It won't because it's just too forced and totally ineffective as a dismissive label. It basically has about as much Sting in it as Trudie Stylers arsehole after she's been shitting Quorn for a week.
John #33
I think the problem is the term "apologist" is subjective...0.02% is a statistical reality.
I think the problem is the term "apologist" is subjective...0.02% is a statistical reality.
John (33) - You say..
"It basically has about as much Sting in it as Trudie Stylers arsehole after she's been shitting Quorn for a week"
Erm...I'm not really sure what that means, but I AM sure no sentence I've ever read on TW has made me laugh more.
"It basically has about as much Sting in it as Trudie Stylers arsehole after she's been shitting Quorn for a week"
Erm...I'm not really sure what that means, but I AM sure no sentence I've ever read on TW has made me laugh more.
Andy, Wayne, read again what i said. I said our players are crap compared to the top 6 teams. I agree we have under performed in some games but we have not under performed against the the teams in the top 6.
@26 Ridiculous comment. Without Moyes I would argue that 4 players would not have been in the England squad tonight: Rodwell, Lescott, Baines & Jagielka.
Moyes took 2 of them from the Championship and they both developed as centre backs. Baines has always been indulged down the left because Moyes knows how good he is. Hence why he's the second best English left back going. PERHAPS Rodwell would have made it anyway but he made his debut 6 years into Davey's reign which suggests he was the product of Davey's regime.
As said, staggeringly ridiculous comment.
Moyes took 2 of them from the Championship and they both developed as centre backs. Baines has always been indulged down the left because Moyes knows how good he is. Hence why he's the second best English left back going. PERHAPS Rodwell would have made it anyway but he made his debut 6 years into Davey's reign which suggests he was the product of Davey's regime.
As said, staggeringly ridiculous comment.
Brendan #34, "I think the problem is the term "apologist" is subjective...0.02% is a statistical reality."........... Are you for real? Do you really believe what you have written there?
"Apologist" is actually a verb which some of us have used to describe the action or state of those who continue to find ways of defending Moyes, his style of play and management.
Now the "0.02%" quote, so that is statistically founded is it? And how may I ask was that particular statistic arrived at? What polling method was used and what was your sample number? I think what you'll find is that the "0.02%" is actually, wait for it, subjective, there is no numerical or factual basis for it, it's just someone's opinion that they tried to pass on as fact. Many of us have adopted it purely because it is such a laughable label to apply and yet another example of a weak argument without substance to back it up. So, 0.02% of Evertonians think Moyes has had his day apparently, 0.02% of 40,000 (Number being revised down all the time, there could even be less than 30,000 against Wolves) = 8 supporters, really!!!!!
Ian #36, similarly, do you honestly believe we didn't underperform against any of the top 6? Seriously!
"Apologist" is actually a verb which some of us have used to describe the action or state of those who continue to find ways of defending Moyes, his style of play and management.
Now the "0.02%" quote, so that is statistically founded is it? And how may I ask was that particular statistic arrived at? What polling method was used and what was your sample number? I think what you'll find is that the "0.02%" is actually, wait for it, subjective, there is no numerical or factual basis for it, it's just someone's opinion that they tried to pass on as fact. Many of us have adopted it purely because it is such a laughable label to apply and yet another example of a weak argument without substance to back it up. So, 0.02% of Evertonians think Moyes has had his day apparently, 0.02% of 40,000 (Number being revised down all the time, there could even be less than 30,000 against Wolves) = 8 supporters, really!!!!!
Ian #36, similarly, do you honestly believe we didn't underperform against any of the top 6? Seriously!
Andrew #37, "Baines has always been indulged down the left because Moyes knows how good he is. Hence why he's the second best English left back going. PERHAPS Rodwell would have made it anyway but he made his debut 6 years into Davey's reign which suggests he was the product of Davey's regime."
Moyes wouldn't play Baines for around 12 months, instead he played Lescott out of position and insisted on using Yobo in the centre. That is indefensible and shows just how crap a coach Moyes is and was, even back then.
Rodwell was the product of our youth system, fortunately they are run independently from the first team by a whole different set of coaches with different ideas, thank Christ. Moyes only got his crappy paws on him when he was promoted into the first team squad.
Moyes wouldn't play Baines for around 12 months, instead he played Lescott out of position and insisted on using Yobo in the centre. That is indefensible and shows just how crap a coach Moyes is and was, even back then.
Rodwell was the product of our youth system, fortunately they are run independently from the first team by a whole different set of coaches with different ideas, thank Christ. Moyes only got his crappy paws on him when he was promoted into the first team squad.
Tonight's match showed how poor a manager Moyes is, based on the fact that Jags held back the Spanish team in defence and Rodwell looked sharp when he came on. Why can't Moyes get performances like that, week-in & week-out, from them?
Instead, we'll be treated to Jags pumping a ball 40 yards up the pitch at every chance to no-one against Wolves and Rodwell passing sideways non-stop!
Instead, we'll be treated to Jags pumping a ball 40 yards up the pitch at every chance to no-one against Wolves and Rodwell passing sideways non-stop!
It's no wonder Wenger wanted Jags when he shows what he can really do. Composed and very little hoofing, and Jack Rodwell looking right at home and coming on with a good half hour to play.
Sorry, Dithering Davey ? your time is up; you need a fresh start somewhere else.
Sorry, Dithering Davey ? your time is up; you need a fresh start somewhere else.
Yes well imagine what the valuation will be if we don't get six points against Wolves and Bolton - or worse, if we get relegated. Then someone will pick up a "relatively debt free" bargain.
Just when I thought we couldn't find any more excuses for the shite on (and off) the pitch, someone dreams up something more... Hats off to you Danny. As Rob said in the first reply, good luck to you!
Anto, Jags wouldn't be in the England squad only for Moyes. It just shows what a good partnership Jaggs and Lescott were and how much we miss Lescott. Moyes never wanted to sell Lescott but as usual his hands were tied.
Ian, how do you know Jags wouldn't have been in the England squad only for Moyes ?
Brian, it's obvious isn't it, Moyes taught Jags how to aimlessly hoof the ball 50 yards up the pitch when under no pressure to the 1 man up front over the heads of the 5 man midfield. Moyes taught him everything he knows. ;-)
Here's a radical idea ? get a midfielder who can pass and a striker who can retain possession. The hoof is a tactic because we don't have those core elements.
Ian (47) - That is crazy talk!
Next thing you'll be suggesting our players, when receiving the ball, don't tap it forward a couple of times, then look up and chip it forward towards a corner flag that doesn't have a player within 20 yards of it! (then put their hand up as if to say "Yeah sorry, was thinking of a different planned move")
Next thing you'll be suggesting our players, when receiving the ball, don't tap it forward a couple of times, then look up and chip it forward towards a corner flag that doesn't have a player within 20 yards of it! (then put their hand up as if to say "Yeah sorry, was thinking of a different planned move")
"It just shows what a good partnership Jags and Lescott were and how much we miss Lescott. Moyes never wanted to sell Lescott but as usual his hands were tied."
=====
Hello?
The only people who "tied" Moyes's hands were the City board, who offered Lescott a doubling or tripling of his wages.
Once he heard that, his head was turned and he was off.
=====
Hello?
The only people who "tied" Moyes's hands were the City board, who offered Lescott a doubling or tripling of his wages.
Once he heard that, his head was turned and he was off.
Let's hope Rodwell and Jagilelka will return with their confidence boosted. Capello might just have done us an unexpected favour.
I just read an interview with Walter Smith in the Sunday Times. He is eight years younger than Alex Ferguson and it was suggested that he'd jump at another crack at the Premier League.
Never again must we be subjected to the Moyes supporters asking who could replace him.
Never again must we be subjected to the Moyes supporters asking who could replace him.
Walter Smith?
Please, No!
If you have found this season 'disappointing', just see what happens if Smith ever returns! You'll be 'disappointed' permanently.
Please, No!
If you have found this season 'disappointing', just see what happens if Smith ever returns! You'll be 'disappointed' permanently.
Actually, Andy, I am ( even though I am not a 'Moyes supporter' as you put it ) going to ask you who you would replace Moyes with? Just curious...and don't say Walter Smith, ha ha ha.
Robbie #38
Do the words "hook, line & sinker" mean anything to you? Fantastic response by the way....I could almost feel the steam!
Do the words "hook, line & sinker" mean anything to you? Fantastic response by the way....I could almost feel the steam!
Andy #51
I think at his age Walter would jump at another crack,....anywhere!
I think at his age Walter would jump at another crack,....anywhere!
Brendan
Regarding the fabled 0.02% which btw I love because it illustrates the 3 tenants of the apologist argument ie
Statistics before judgement.
Sulkiness
Fiction before fact.
Surely with us being a place above relegation we should be called the 0,03%?
Morale high ground is strictly Dave Wilson territory and like most of that mindset just give them enough rope.
I really don't thing "apologist" is an insult, based on the walk like a duck, talk like a duck then blow me down it must be a duck rationale.
quack quack
Regarding the fabled 0.02% which btw I love because it illustrates the 3 tenants of the apologist argument ie
Statistics before judgement.
Sulkiness
Fiction before fact.
Surely with us being a place above relegation we should be called the 0,03%?
Morale high ground is strictly Dave Wilson territory and like most of that mindset just give them enough rope.
I really don't thing "apologist" is an insult, based on the walk like a duck, talk like a duck then blow me down it must be a duck rationale.
quack quack
Brendan, "I hate you, I hate you , I hate you" :)
Trevor #56
How does the term "0.02%" represent any of those three tenants? But more importantly I agree... apologist isn't an insult but when you stoop to "labelling" people who disagree with you... you just lose a little something.
How does the term "0.02%" represent any of those three tenants? But more importantly I agree... apologist isn't an insult but when you stoop to "labelling" people who disagree with you... you just lose a little something.
Trevor... of all the apologies to accuse apologists of... sulkiness?!
I get accused of being an apologist whenever i say anything vaguely optimistic by all those convinced that doom and gloom is the only way.
Try and say anything positive and you get shot down by those determined to moan. Say what you like but its the misery brigade who are sulking!
I get accused of being an apologist whenever i say anything vaguely optimistic by all those convinced that doom and gloom is the only way.
Try and say anything positive and you get shot down by those determined to moan. Say what you like but its the misery brigade who are sulking!
Robbie #57
You hate me....now you've just relegated yourself to the 0.000000000000000000002%
You hate me....now you've just relegated yourself to the 0.000000000000000000002%
Sam
I deffo think part of the apologist make up is a good sulk/strop/flounce; usually it works like this:
Post match the 0.02% come on in their legions venting their spleen about the crap Moyes serves up ? then they evaporate.
Depending upon the severity of the dross, the TW pages are then vacated and the apologists annoyed by the mass attack sneak out.
Buoyed by the apparent majority they say;
"Yeah... Europe.... LMA.... Best of Rest....no money etc" in defiant whine till some naughty 0.02% say horrible things like perhaps there's another way.
Quack!
I deffo think part of the apologist make up is a good sulk/strop/flounce; usually it works like this:
Post match the 0.02% come on in their legions venting their spleen about the crap Moyes serves up ? then they evaporate.
Depending upon the severity of the dross, the TW pages are then vacated and the apologists annoyed by the mass attack sneak out.
Buoyed by the apparent majority they say;
"Yeah... Europe.... LMA.... Best of Rest....no money etc" in defiant whine till some naughty 0.02% say horrible things like perhaps there's another way.
Quack!
Trevor, your subterfuge is appalling.
You astonishingly claim the three tenets of the apologist are ?statistics before judgement,? ?sulkiness,? and ?fiction before fact.?
Try judgement reinforced by statistics. The sulkiness you speak of originates from those who fundamentally drive the debates, the ?fiction minus facts,? accusation is utterly baseless.
The laboured ?apologist,? line has become a mantra, accompanied by requisite sarcasm, passed off as argument. The jaundiced view of the manager supplants the facts & ignores reality.
Absolute bubbles.
You astonishingly claim the three tenets of the apologist are ?statistics before judgement,? ?sulkiness,? and ?fiction before fact.?
Try judgement reinforced by statistics. The sulkiness you speak of originates from those who fundamentally drive the debates, the ?fiction minus facts,? accusation is utterly baseless.
The laboured ?apologist,? line has become a mantra, accompanied by requisite sarcasm, passed off as argument. The jaundiced view of the manager supplants the facts & ignores reality.
Absolute bubbles.
Trevor
"Post match the 0.02% come on in their legions venting their spleen"....Jesus Trevor, you really have a lot to learn about human nature.
"Post match the 0.02% come on in their legions venting their spleen"....Jesus Trevor, you really have a lot to learn about human nature.
Kevin, the Pro Moyes brigade simply cant claim the moral highground when both sides are guilty of smartarse putdowns, you yourself use verbosity as your weapon of choice. The perptuation of such nonsense as the 0.02% is a pretty poor starting point for arguments which is often thrown up.
I've seen plenty of threads pointing out weaknesses and querying a repeated failure by Moyes, the very ones you yourself agree with; late subs, sticking with players out of position and form, etc, etc. Yet when one of the (choose your anti Moyes favourite putdown here) dares to post, then an equally slavering mob descends and rolls out the LMAs, league placings, etc.
I've seen plenty of threads pointing out weaknesses and querying a repeated failure by Moyes, the very ones you yourself agree with; late subs, sticking with players out of position and form, etc, etc. Yet when one of the (choose your anti Moyes favourite putdown here) dares to post, then an equally slavering mob descends and rolls out the LMAs, league placings, etc.
Some of the posts on this site are starting to resemble the clues on 321.
Trevor, moaning and sulking is the domain of the complainers. It is the 'apologists' who are trying to tell the moaners to stop complaining.
Of course its all opinion at the end of the day but I don't think sulking is the appropriate insult here...mindless optimism maybe but not sulking. You see what I'm saying?
Of course its all opinion at the end of the day but I don't think sulking is the appropriate insult here...mindless optimism maybe but not sulking. You see what I'm saying?
Errr..Gavin #64
"You yourself use verbosity as your weapon of choice. The perpetuation of such nonsense"..pot, kettle, black mean anything to you?
"You yourself use verbosity as your weapon of choice. The perpetuation of such nonsense"..pot, kettle, black mean anything to you?
Quality John (#33)
I'm definitiely guilty of verbosity, but then, no one's asking you to read it Gavin, let alone respond to it, inviting another response!
For the record, I've never directly called anyone a 0.02 %. But I do know that those who fall into that mythical category started the "apologist," thing a long time ago.
So they are the last people who ought to complain about moral "high ground," when given a spoonful of their own, ineffectual medicine.
For the record, I've never directly called anyone a 0.02 %. But I do know that those who fall into that mythical category started the "apologist," thing a long time ago.
So they are the last people who ought to complain about moral "high ground," when given a spoonful of their own, ineffectual medicine.
''Oooooo, You called me that first!''
''No, no, you called me that first!''
Fuckin' behave yourselves, realise that everyone's got an opinion, and stop with the fuckin', frankly, uneducated and idiotic namecalling.
Cheers.
0.02% FFS.
''No, no, you called me that first!''
Fuckin' behave yourselves, realise that everyone's got an opinion, and stop with the fuckin', frankly, uneducated and idiotic namecalling.
Cheers.
0.02% FFS.
Well said, Colin.
Kevin (69) - you say...
"For the record, I've never directly called anyone a 0.02 %. But I do know that those who fall into that mythical category started the "apologist," thing a long time ago".
Key question.
In response to...what?
That question ever cross your mind?
I suggest (certainly initially) it was an understandable, natural and legitimate response to 'Moyes-haters' (nb: started 'a long time ago' also)
I look forward to a reasoned, unbiased read on why 'Moyes-haters' doesn't warrant any comment from you and why Moyes-apologist warrants so much
You know, with you being such a fair, even-handed adult etc.
"For the record, I've never directly called anyone a 0.02 %. But I do know that those who fall into that mythical category started the "apologist," thing a long time ago".
Key question.
In response to...what?
That question ever cross your mind?
I suggest (certainly initially) it was an understandable, natural and legitimate response to 'Moyes-haters' (nb: started 'a long time ago' also)
I look forward to a reasoned, unbiased read on why 'Moyes-haters' doesn't warrant any comment from you and why Moyes-apologist warrants so much
You know, with you being such a fair, even-handed adult etc.
Poor Danny, you must have been overworked. You should take some time off to relax and recharge your batteries before your sanity goes.
Domino @23 ? thanks. Seems like you were the only one, fella. :D
Regarding Moyes - When the Monkey and the Antelope eat on Tuesday, the Tiger often feels a little bit peckish on Wednesday. If the Tiger could make himself a sandwich, he would. But he can't because he has no access to bread.
(nb: I'll be back after 70 posts or so, to let all those who are totally baffled by the above, know that if they can't see irony, wit and cleverness, it's them that's dumb, not me).
(nb: I'll be back after 70 posts or so, to let all those who are totally baffled by the above, know that if they can't see irony, wit and cleverness, it's them that's dumb, not me).
Chronology, Eugene?
See post 70.
See post 70.
@9 hilarious the madness of that scenario but totally spot on
The irony about apologists is if Moyes showed as much innovation and effort as they defending the indefensible - we'd be top of the league......and they don't complain about not having money for the latest laptop.
See... get out of that one... can't can ya?
See... get out of that one... can't can ya?
Chronology... Post 1 in 'Moyes the constantly curious' 'Moyes-Bashers'...blahhhhhhhhh.
However, in defence of Mr Hudson, in the above thread, he then goes on to be hoisted by his own petard, by listing a rather comprehensive list of Moyes's flaws... Ironic eh!
However, in defence of Mr Hudson, in the above thread, he then goes on to be hoisted by his own petard, by listing a rather comprehensive list of Moyes's flaws... Ironic eh!
Oh I think you know the answer to the "apologist versus Moyes basher," query originates a lot further back than two days, Ciaran.
Established as it is that I'm a Moyes supporter, a poster challenging my perception asked me to list, if any, what flaws I think Moyes has.
I obliged and played Devil's Advocate: And I'm being mocked for this?
Being an apparent "fair, even-handed adult," is now a cause for infantile sarcasm from Eugene & something to be thrown back in my face by you, Ciaran, is it?
Was is it insincere spin or just plain ignorance as to why you chose to disregard my closing words "on balance," and "overall."
Am I correct (I think I am) in assuming you are supportive of the "Moyes Out," rhetoric?
Then let's see YOU do what I did, in reverse, demonstrating what YOU think Moyes' positives are, if he has any.
Or come back at me again with a one sentence witticism for the sake of it - your choice.
Established as it is that I'm a Moyes supporter, a poster challenging my perception asked me to list, if any, what flaws I think Moyes has.
I obliged and played Devil's Advocate: And I'm being mocked for this?
Being an apparent "fair, even-handed adult," is now a cause for infantile sarcasm from Eugene & something to be thrown back in my face by you, Ciaran, is it?
Was is it insincere spin or just plain ignorance as to why you chose to disregard my closing words "on balance," and "overall."
Am I correct (I think I am) in assuming you are supportive of the "Moyes Out," rhetoric?
Then let's see YOU do what I did, in reverse, demonstrating what YOU think Moyes' positives are, if he has any.
Or come back at me again with a one sentence witticism for the sake of it - your choice.
Heal thyself.
Kevin - See post 70?
See post 70 yourself!
I pointed out (72) the name-calling ('apologist'-'hater') is a 50-50 deal and suggested (despite your best efforts) there is no moral high-ground to be claimed.
The reality (nb: for all to see, despite attempts to murky the water) is that you and many Moyes ap....excusers, try so hard to be 'adults', but simply can't help getting involved.
Colin Wainwright (70) tells one and all to pack-in the name-calling and you're immediately in there with "Well said Colin".
EH!?
Question - If you REALLY thought it was so 'well said', why spend so much time and effort (eg: 62) inferring it's those who disagree with you who are responsible for name calling, while completely ignoring the name-calling by those who hold similar views to you?
100% indisputable facts - Many of those who want to see the back of Moyes have been referred to as 'Moyes-haters'. Many of those more sympathetic to Moyes have been referred to as 'apologists'.
You ignore the former, concentrate on the latter and see only what you want to see.
Oh, and there is no date as to who called who, what, first (though my guess, as I suggested, is Tony Marsh was probably first to receive real stick from..um..the 'Marsh haters'?).
See post 70 yourself!
I pointed out (72) the name-calling ('apologist'-'hater') is a 50-50 deal and suggested (despite your best efforts) there is no moral high-ground to be claimed.
The reality (nb: for all to see, despite attempts to murky the water) is that you and many Moyes ap....excusers, try so hard to be 'adults', but simply can't help getting involved.
Colin Wainwright (70) tells one and all to pack-in the name-calling and you're immediately in there with "Well said Colin".
EH!?
Question - If you REALLY thought it was so 'well said', why spend so much time and effort (eg: 62) inferring it's those who disagree with you who are responsible for name calling, while completely ignoring the name-calling by those who hold similar views to you?
100% indisputable facts - Many of those who want to see the back of Moyes have been referred to as 'Moyes-haters'. Many of those more sympathetic to Moyes have been referred to as 'apologists'.
You ignore the former, concentrate on the latter and see only what you want to see.
Oh, and there is no date as to who called who, what, first (though my guess, as I suggested, is Tony Marsh was probably first to receive real stick from..um..the 'Marsh haters'?).
My admission Eugene was that Colin nailed it, and I suspected his criticism, was perhaps aimed at me. And fair enough, I thought.
Hence "well said."
Also, the only people citing "moral high ground," are to be found in the Moyes Out Brigade; Accusing the Moyes supporters of trying to occupy it.
By the way, am I to presume the question you posed to me in post 72 will also be put to the MOB?
In the interests of..etc..
Hence "well said."
Also, the only people citing "moral high ground," are to be found in the Moyes Out Brigade; Accusing the Moyes supporters of trying to occupy it.
By the way, am I to presume the question you posed to me in post 72 will also be put to the MOB?
In the interests of..etc..
Jeez, can we please all get back to some proper posts, the above is getting ridiculous - and I include EVERYONE in that. I cannot be arsed reading such things trying to find some proper footballing stuff.
Basically both camps agree on most of the supposed 'short comings' of the manager. The only difference I can see is that one camp does not think the manager can change (hence need a new one) and the other thinks he can and/or will once the owners change (and he gets more cash).
Right, I get it - now can we get back to discussing the team and the upcoming fixture?
Also who's ordered the cab for Kenwrong?
Amen!
Basically both camps agree on most of the supposed 'short comings' of the manager. The only difference I can see is that one camp does not think the manager can change (hence need a new one) and the other thinks he can and/or will once the owners change (and he gets more cash).
Right, I get it - now can we get back to discussing the team and the upcoming fixture?
Also who's ordered the cab for Kenwrong?
Amen!
Kevin you ask..
"By the way, am I to presume the question you posed to me in post 72 will also be put to the MOB?"
Jesus, there it is again, avoidance and let's murky the water (and MY responses are 'infantile'?)
You know what Kevin - no I won't.
But only because (as you must know) it would be odd and/or impossible to pose a question to many people (who have asked me nothing) if that question was SPECIFICALLY designed to answer points made by one individual (ie: you)
Example: Let's say for instance I responded to something twattish you had written with "Don't be such a twat", would you ask "Hope you're going to ask the MOB that?"
Erm....no, coz 1) I'm responding to YOU. 2) They haven't said anything twattish (well...not to me).
Tip: Anything would like to see answered by the ALL the MOB, start a post yourself.
You add..
"Also, the only people citing "moral high ground," are to be found in the Moyes Out Brigade; Accusing the Moyes supporters of trying to occupy it"
The ONLY people?
Well..um..fine, when you have produced your posts count (let's say since 2007), graphs, figures etc for this claim, we can discuss it.
(nb: Until you do however, we'll just have to assume it's some desperate bollocks, based on nothing, that you've lobbed in to 'support' your opinion).
"By the way, am I to presume the question you posed to me in post 72 will also be put to the MOB?"
Jesus, there it is again, avoidance and let's murky the water (and MY responses are 'infantile'?)
You know what Kevin - no I won't.
But only because (as you must know) it would be odd and/or impossible to pose a question to many people (who have asked me nothing) if that question was SPECIFICALLY designed to answer points made by one individual (ie: you)
Example: Let's say for instance I responded to something twattish you had written with "Don't be such a twat", would you ask "Hope you're going to ask the MOB that?"
Erm....no, coz 1) I'm responding to YOU. 2) They haven't said anything twattish (well...not to me).
Tip: Anything would like to see answered by the ALL the MOB, start a post yourself.
You add..
"Also, the only people citing "moral high ground," are to be found in the Moyes Out Brigade; Accusing the Moyes supporters of trying to occupy it"
The ONLY people?
Well..um..fine, when you have produced your posts count (let's say since 2007), graphs, figures etc for this claim, we can discuss it.
(nb: Until you do however, we'll just have to assume it's some desperate bollocks, based on nothing, that you've lobbed in to 'support' your opinion).
#39 Baines only took about a year to get into the team because he had a bad ankle injury in that first season
Tom, he was also (imo) very honest and stated he was worried about 'making the leap' and letting down supporters etc.
It was also because Lescott was playing out of his skin at Leftback. He didn't deserve to lose his place.
Re the "high ground," accusations, allow me to refer you to Gavin,Trevor & then YOU; Suggesting that despite my "best efforts," of claiming it, I didn't.
Is that a complete, empirically researched picuture? No.. might there be Moyes supporters who have used this line of attack, before? Sure, probably. Or definitely perhaps. But the theme has been echoed & repeated TWICE on this thread by his detractors, and we're entitled to a rebuttal.
You mentioned avoidance. You asked me to answer a question, which by your own admission, would be impossible to pose to "many," people.
("To the MOB." Oh I see..my pluralism.)
Righto, I'll rephrase:
Since you yourself point out the "name-calling is a 50-50 deal," try also selecting ONE individual from your own side, whilst asking someone across the divide, to respond to your chicken & egg poser.
Is that a complete, empirically researched picuture? No.. might there be Moyes supporters who have used this line of attack, before? Sure, probably. Or definitely perhaps. But the theme has been echoed & repeated TWICE on this thread by his detractors, and we're entitled to a rebuttal.
You mentioned avoidance. You asked me to answer a question, which by your own admission, would be impossible to pose to "many," people.
("To the MOB." Oh I see..my pluralism.)
Righto, I'll rephrase:
Since you yourself point out the "name-calling is a 50-50 deal," try also selecting ONE individual from your own side, whilst asking someone across the divide, to respond to your chicken & egg poser.
Kevin (89) you say..
"Since you yourself point out the "name-calling is a 50-50 deal," try also selecting ONE individual from your own side, whilst asking someone across the divide, to respond to your chicken & egg poser".
Fact - pointing out the name-calling is/was 50-50 WAS my point.
Not valid?
Too complex?
Your Clarence Darrow-like 'AH-HA!" response to this, is to point out that on this (ie: one!) thread this has been TWO (nb: not 768) Moyes detractors who have 'echoed' something..or other.
Imho, beyond clutching at straws (by the way, has it ever occurred to you that you NEVER see your own name-calling as...name calling, nor that of your 'side')
Which reminds me, I don't have a 'side'.
I have MY opinions - some agree, some think I'm full of shite, others ignore me.
You want to know what THEY think?
You ask them.
The reason I asked YOU specifically the chicken-egg question, is because YOUR posts indicated YOU could only see things from the perspective of an egg (or...a chicken, your choice).
Anyway, I'm done, enjoy the last (heavily skewed, factless) word.
"Since you yourself point out the "name-calling is a 50-50 deal," try also selecting ONE individual from your own side, whilst asking someone across the divide, to respond to your chicken & egg poser".
Fact - pointing out the name-calling is/was 50-50 WAS my point.
Not valid?
Too complex?
Your Clarence Darrow-like 'AH-HA!" response to this, is to point out that on this (ie: one!) thread this has been TWO (nb: not 768) Moyes detractors who have 'echoed' something..or other.
Imho, beyond clutching at straws (by the way, has it ever occurred to you that you NEVER see your own name-calling as...name calling, nor that of your 'side')
Which reminds me, I don't have a 'side'.
I have MY opinions - some agree, some think I'm full of shite, others ignore me.
You want to know what THEY think?
You ask them.
The reason I asked YOU specifically the chicken-egg question, is because YOUR posts indicated YOU could only see things from the perspective of an egg (or...a chicken, your choice).
Anyway, I'm done, enjoy the last (heavily skewed, factless) word.
Brendan, interesting thought line you have there claiming I made an assault on the use of verbosity, I merely pointed out a fact that Kevin uses verbosity as his weapon of choice with neither a positive or negaitive slant on it so the bollocks about pot kettle black implies your interpretation over something I've not claimed merely an observation I made. See how you've immediately claimed a side which you've invented yourself?
I simply made a point that the so called sides, again down to interpretation and I'd be more inclined to say I like Eugene have a viewpoint and enjoy a good debate and eventual slanging match if thats what I get back.
I simply made a point that the so called sides, again down to interpretation and I'd be more inclined to say I like Eugene have a viewpoint and enjoy a good debate and eventual slanging match if thats what I get back.
Eugene, you state that my posts indicate only one side; So why did I play Devil's Advocate & point out the merits of the MOB's litany of complaints?
(Source: The Klinsmann thread.)
On THIS thread, I then invited somone with an alternate viewpoint to do likewise, in reverse. They refused.
Hardly factless.
Your chicken & egg question applies equally to both. This by your own admission. When asked therefore to seek out the chicken AND the egg, you declined. TWICE.
Run "heavily skewed," by me again..
Not a single person predicates their ToffeeWeb submissions with: "This is my opinion...but for good measure, here's the other side...just in case Eugene rebukes me for not seeing another's perspective - in advance.."
But it's me cited for Eugene's Law of Balance.
"By the way, has it NEVER occurred to you that you never see your own name calling as... name calling."
This is way too easy..
Newsflash: Post 83.
I implore you to come up with something better than pretending I haven't done something, when I actually HAVE, it's visible, and even addressed to you!!
Because that's just.."er..um...twattish.."
(Source: The Klinsmann thread.)
On THIS thread, I then invited somone with an alternate viewpoint to do likewise, in reverse. They refused.
Hardly factless.
Your chicken & egg question applies equally to both. This by your own admission. When asked therefore to seek out the chicken AND the egg, you declined. TWICE.
Run "heavily skewed," by me again..
Not a single person predicates their ToffeeWeb submissions with: "This is my opinion...but for good measure, here's the other side...just in case Eugene rebukes me for not seeing another's perspective - in advance.."
But it's me cited for Eugene's Law of Balance.
"By the way, has it NEVER occurred to you that you never see your own name calling as... name calling."
This is way too easy..
Newsflash: Post 83.
I implore you to come up with something better than pretending I haven't done something, when I actually HAVE, it's visible, and even addressed to you!!
Because that's just.."er..um...twattish.."
Wow this is doing my head in, it's a bit like a sketch from "Yes Minister". I think I've forgotten what I stand for and believe in now. What was the question again?????
To return the favour for Kevin, I'll play devil's advocate back and list Moyes strengths, even though I am most certainly in the "Moyes Out" camp.
1) Talented at identifying and picking up lower league players, especially defenders.
2) Appears to command a great deal of respect from his players.
3) Has shown a lot of loyalty to Everton over the years.
4) Seems to be very well respected by his peers.
5) Has generally bought well, especially when on a limited budget.
6) Is a really nice guy, signed my shirt for me and spent ages signing shirts for fans when over in Australia.
I can't think of anything else at this moment in time that I can genuinely put down as being positive about Moyes. If I think of anything more I'll post it up.
To return the favour for Kevin, I'll play devil's advocate back and list Moyes strengths, even though I am most certainly in the "Moyes Out" camp.
1) Talented at identifying and picking up lower league players, especially defenders.
2) Appears to command a great deal of respect from his players.
3) Has shown a lot of loyalty to Everton over the years.
4) Seems to be very well respected by his peers.
5) Has generally bought well, especially when on a limited budget.
6) Is a really nice guy, signed my shirt for me and spent ages signing shirts for fans when over in Australia.
I can't think of anything else at this moment in time that I can genuinely put down as being positive about Moyes. If I think of anything more I'll post it up.
"Andy, Wayne, read again what i said. I said our players are crap compared to the top 6 teams"
Is that so Ian Well why are we crap compared to at least 16 clubs in the PL? Don't tell me the likes of Newcastle, Stoke and Norwich have such superior players to ours. How many on here moaned about the mess the bankers put the country in, and bemoaned their obscene salaries while they were cocking it all up? Don't let emotion get in the way of hard economic fact when it comes to our club. Football clubs are now a business and when the man in charge isn't delivering then his money should be reduced or he should be replaced
Is that so Ian Well why are we crap compared to at least 16 clubs in the PL? Don't tell me the likes of Newcastle, Stoke and Norwich have such superior players to ours. How many on here moaned about the mess the bankers put the country in, and bemoaned their obscene salaries while they were cocking it all up? Don't let emotion get in the way of hard economic fact when it comes to our club. Football clubs are now a business and when the man in charge isn't delivering then his money should be reduced or he should be replaced
Mick, read my post again. i admitd we have underperfomed against the lesser sides, but so what, Man Utd and Chelsea underperform sometimes as well. What matters is how we have performed over 38 games and time and time again Moyes has got the best out of his players and challanged for European places. Can we not can compare politics or banks and sport either, there is no analogy there, i've had this discussion before with someone else.
Ian - you have great faith in David Moyes it would seem. I am sorry but I no longer have such faith/confidence in the guy. I keep hearing that he has had no money to spend - Billy cost more than Arshavin - but it would appear that Wenger did have some idea where to best play his signing which is more than can be said for Moyes.
His tactics are over cautious - if we were drawn at home in the FA Cup against a Non League team I would not be surprised if Moyes played 4-5-1. The Americans have a saying - " If it isn't broken then don't fix it " David Moyes appears to have a saying as well - " Broken or not I won't change it " It is blatantly obvious that at times his tactics are not working - but he carries on with the same, predictable tactics until he has to make a change - but more often than not it is too late. For instance at Newcastle he brings on an extra striker with about 15 minutes to go.
Against Wigan he was lucky - the changes worked and yes he should take credit for that - but he was lucky in that he again left it late to make a change.A good manager would recognise that changes need to made and would make them and bring on the players as soon as possible. Moyes seems to want to have a conference with Steve Round and Chris Woods - wasting valuable time - before deciding on making a change.
His tactics are over cautious - if we were drawn at home in the FA Cup against a Non League team I would not be surprised if Moyes played 4-5-1. The Americans have a saying - " If it isn't broken then don't fix it " David Moyes appears to have a saying as well - " Broken or not I won't change it " It is blatantly obvious that at times his tactics are not working - but he carries on with the same, predictable tactics until he has to make a change - but more often than not it is too late. For instance at Newcastle he brings on an extra striker with about 15 minutes to go.
Against Wigan he was lucky - the changes worked and yes he should take credit for that - but he was lucky in that he again left it late to make a change.A good manager would recognise that changes need to made and would make them and bring on the players as soon as possible. Moyes seems to want to have a conference with Steve Round and Chris Woods - wasting valuable time - before deciding on making a change.
I think its more the length Davie has been at the club that is causing some to want a change. I can well remember Charlton fans ringing 505 complaining that Curbishley had taken them as far as he could. They were sitting 10th in the Premiership, they would give their right arm to be sitting in that position now.
Also we have had Arsenal fans calling for Wenger to be sacked, obviously without spending a lot of money it is difficult for clubs to stand still never mind progress
Also we have had Arsenal fans calling for Wenger to be sacked, obviously without spending a lot of money it is difficult for clubs to stand still never mind progress
Brian # 98 - I don't want Moyes to go - I simply would like him to be a bit more adventurous and play 2 strikers in some of our games.
Waves imaginary cricket bat at imaginary crowd.
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1 Posted 12/11/2011 at 08:31:24
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Good luck with the rest of the posters here.