Everton have loads of international good players in the squad at this present time. What we don't have is a manager who can get the best out of them.

We are fourth from bottom because Moyes is too negative and holds the players back. Alan Pardrew has only been at Newcastle 12 months and, because he is more forward-thinking and positive, they are third. Time for a change please!

I'll kick off with Gazza being the first player to leave under Moyes who had played for his country.

Francis Jeffers x

Claus Thomsen was a full international. Doesn't always mean much does it?

I would be happy to listen to any argument advocating Parker (who won it) or even Lescott as man of the match on Friday. But it was Jagielka for me....and that's not bias because I have been very critical of him for Everton this season. His errors have cost us quite a few points.

Then Rodwell comes on and without being spectacular gave England exactly what they lacked in the first half, a midfielder prepared to drive forward and try to make a connection between the front man and the rest of the team (I almost felt sorry for Bent) Jack certainly did not look out of place facing the best midfield in the world.

Ashley Cole once again provided a display that made you wonder how the fuck he keeps Baines out of the side with poor defending and absolutely nothing going forward. That lesson will surely be learned soon and when it is, these three will become regular starters for England, at which point they will probably all end up at Old Trafford, or somewhere like it.

Fuck it.

Dave, not having a pop, but I think deep down you are being biased. Lescott was MotM by a country mile in my opinion.

I thought Jags did well but Lescott was better. Some poor distribution from Jags but we are used to that.

Rodwell did quite well. They both did themselves no harm and apparantly Jack is in line for a starting place tomorrow against Sweden.

Good luck to him.

There was poor distribution from Lescott too. One precision pass to Iniesta set up a chance from which they nearly scored! The perennial English problem. But you pays your money and you makes your choice but for me it was Jags. He was the one making the saving tackles and time and time again taking the ball off their toes. And two of the three opportunities Bent had to turn and run at goal with the ball came from Jag's long 'passes'.

I don't think I'm being biased at all!

We have enough good players to be playing a hell of a lot better than we do. Our squad is weak in the creativity stakes but then whose fault is that!

The cold hard truth is Moyes is not good or intelligent enough to get the best out of the players at his disposal.

"holds the players back" - How?

"Alan Pardrew has only been at Newcastle 12 months and, because he is more forward-thinking and positive, they are third. Time for a change please!" Blackpool were fourth once. It doesn't matter where you are now, it matters when the final whistle of the 38th game blows.

Alexandersson

"Holding back the players" I imagine would refer to Moyes on the touchline barking instructions at his players throughout the 90 minutes instead of letting players play with a little freedom and a more relaxed state of mind.

"The cold hard truth is Moyes is not good or intelligent enough to get the best out of the players at his disposal" - maybe not now he has been dragged down with no decent buys for 3 seasons and having to sell his best players.

Your comment is aimed at a man who got his team of Kilbanes, Bents, Stubbs, Weirs, Pistones, Carsleys, Watsons, Naysmiths and Le Ties into the qualifying rounds of the Champions League.

He used to be able to do it, for a nice spell when we actually bought players we wanted, not loan deals and frees.

Marcus, what like telling his players to stop hitting it long, which was clearly picked up on the TV mics. He was telling someone, probably jags to shorten it, and play it short.

Imagine that?, a manager actually managing his team and asking them to play better than the hoof it shite we get from the England "great" Jags.

Do you honestly think a lad on the other side of the pitch can hear him, how does that work for Louis? Is he telling him to balloon it over from 15 yards instead of placing it, or actually hitting it to either side of the keeper, instead of straight at him?

Again the player apologists are on in force, it's not their fault, it's the manager, he's not letting them play......fecks sake!!

I'm sure there's many examples of Moyes also telling players to not 'fanny about with it' also. So what's your point?

Managers are key, players are usually a reflection on the management and the training regime. If players fail to do the basics properly or lump it long whilst under the slightest pressure, then no doubt it's the way they are trained by the coach.

Look at Swansea for instance, always play it out from the back, goalkeeper comfortable in possession. Sometimes it goes wrong for them but the coaches don't BERATE them if it does because its how they want the players to play.

So that tells me when Howard, Hibbert or Jags hoof it (not to mention Yobo whilst he was here), then it's because on the training pitch Moyes hasn't drilled into these players that playing from the back is beneficial and that percentage football is the way.

The biggest hoofer is Jags. The rest of them, Distin, Baines and Hibbert evenm try and play the short balls to the midfielders, who generally knock it back and turn away as if they have done their job.

Jags is the only one who continually hoofs it forward. Distin tries to take it on, Baines and Hibbert look to pass and move withthe winger but our vice captain, who is a great defender, twats it 50 yards into the area of lone striker is waiting.

Jags was still hoofing it for you lot on Saturday...it was mentioned quite frequently by commentators.

IMO The main reason we hoof the ball a lot, though in particular Jagielka and Howard is because there's a shocking lack of movement in the whole side. I think the main reason for this is Moyes has drilled the players not to lose the shape of the side.

Even when we get a throw-in or a free-kick, it's never taken quick and our players move into designated positions, usually with a defensive element to them.

There are certain aspects of the game that can't be coached into players and others you can work on. Movement and finding space is one of them. Looking at our side and how we play, I'd say we spend about five minutes a season working on this individually and as a team.

Stephen,

Spot on... The big gap in Rodwell's game at the moment is finding space and closing down. Moyes doesn't appear to be able to teach him that.

"our players move into designated positions, usually with a defensive element to them" - What, even when we are in the opposing team's box?

You can take your position but can still move away from your man.

This is both Moyes's and the players fault, too rigid in the formation and the players with not enough nouse to lose their men

Tony,

Next time we manage to get near the opposition box have a look how many players are in there? We will always be well covered and ensure the oppostion can't get in a position where they have a man over, even though this would mean we have a man over when we are attacking them. It's clearly coached.

Against City we were sending three or four up for corners. A lot of the time we don't even send Distin up for them, our biggest player by a mile.

40% of goals in the Premier League are scored from set pieces, yet we didn't want to leave ourselves short at the back. Defensive minded?

Theres so much evidence to suggest this is the case.

I believe that movement and finding space can be learnt by anybody regardless of thier natural ability. If the players don't have the "nouse" to work it out then the manager should teach them.

He clearly can't. And because he can't we will continue to struggle to score, which is worrying as we are also struggling for clean sheets.

Tony, Stephen is spot on. None of our midfielders have space, so Jags cant pass it forward. He passes it to the side, passes it back or hoofs it.

This, in my opinion, is down to the players and the management. They're at both fault. Could also be a confident thing.

I agree and have said the same Ben, yes Moyes will tell them the formation but the players still need to move for the throw/free kcik.

I have lost count the number of time I have screamed, "Fucking move for him" at the game.

"Against City we were sending three or four up for corners" - Do the same calculation at Wolves and I bet the numbers will be higher.

City break away with speed and are leading the league, so of course the formation will be one that is more defensive than if we were playing a lower side.

Tony, the difference against Man city, is that the way we set - up, being overly defensive, and parking the bus,the only way we could have hoped to have nicked one, would have been from a set piece.

I don't disagree Brian, we were too defensive and negative but then again so were Man U against Barcelona and they got twatted.

It is one thing about going for it Warnock style, but how many more points do you get for losing but scoring a couple of goals. None!

To me, the two styles are just as negative, Warnock has said the same as Moyes, in that he expected to lose but whereas Moyes is trying to nick a point or even 3 with a tight game and a late goal, Warnok is going gung ho because he fully expects to lose so he thinks, "What the hell"

Both managers are hoping for a flukey draw/win, but Moyes gets denigrated and Warnock gets lauded....surely they have both surendered before a ball is kicked?

Tony my point was that even when we had one of the most effective attacking phases of play I.e. a corner, Defending was still a higher priority than attacking. Imagine what that says to the players and what that says about Moyes?

The thing is though Tony, QPR were unlucky to lose the game because of the way they played, they deserved something out of it. Also, at the end of the day, I know they lost, as did we, but Warnock was lauded because he showed City no respect by taking the game to them.

That's all great, but as stated, he still lost.

The result is still the same but he had accepted defeat before the game started, yet somehow Warnock should be praised but Moyes called a coward.

Yes, it would have been nice to see us go for it, but that has never been our style, keep it tight and hopefully nick a goal, then if it's 1-0, we keep it tight and hopefully nick a goal and so on.

Warnock thought, we are going to lose here so just go for it, he went for it and lost. Moyes was too catious but for a deflected goal and a suicidal ball by Drenthe, who knows we may have gotten a draw or sneaked a win from a set piece. It's all about percentages and both Moyes and Warnock gambled and both lost, just because QPR scored, it doesn't make the points for column any better to readf.

I think that's the crux of much of this pro- or anti- Moyes feeling, Tony. Over the course of the season we seem to come out reasonably well placed in the League, but match by match the experience can be a bit grim. Some seem to feel the end justifies the means & others that it's either to high a price to pay or that the final position could be improved with a different approach (ie - coach). Hence, most seem confident we're unlikely to be relegated under Moyes, but neither are we likely to ever win any silverware. The question is whether it's worth changing manager in hope of actually winning something even though that change might lead to jeopardising our top flight status. Easy to see why opinions are so polarised.

Dennis, I would advocate a change of manager in a heart beat if I felt there was a reasonable chance things would be different here.

The problem we face is that we have a tiny squad of not great players and our creative players are being picked off one by one by the clubs above us, Rooney to ManUre, Lescott to Citteh, Pienaar to Spuds and now Arteta to Le Arse. Next to go will be Fellaini and our midfield starts to look like one that Norwich would put out.

Meant to add that even if by some miracle, say Maureen came to us (who himself is a defensive manager) he still couldn't get us near winning anything, possibly a shot at the Carling Cup.

It's a case of better the Devil you know I suppose but without backing from the board any manager is going to struggle at Everton FC.

Well, I'm sure things would be different, Tony. For some that's a great worry & for others it is their great hope. Of course, we will never know how it would pan out unless Moyes walks. You're quite right, we are stuck in a mode of having to constantly look for the next potentially great player so that we can, in due course, sell them for the big bucks the club needs & is unable to generate through other means.

Regarding the original post, I did find myself wondering whether the fact we have 3 players in the England squad is an indication that maybe our squad isn't so low in quality after all, or maybe it just means that pool of quality players available for England is steadily diminishing. My interest in the national team hasn't been sufficient to really view things froma 'club England' perspective for well over a decade.

My original point has been lost in the chatter so I will change it by asking, for the game at Goodison, can Moyes call on more internationals than McCarthy.

I posted the first message in this mailbag thread and I cannot believe people still support Moyes and argue that he does a good job! Unbelievable!!! No wonder we can't sell the club or move the present regime on.

Moyes gets 60 grand a week, we have a squad full of internationals who, as we have seen this week, play well against top class opposition, yet we are 4th from bottom and can't win a game. Newcastle, Norwich and Swansea have worse players on paper than Everton but they do better... why?

Because of our manager and the coaching staff who are not good enough or have gone stale. We need a new change to freshen things up for players and fans otherwise get used to this negative, "play for a draw, anything else is a bonus" policy.

Even Capello was saying the formation was '9-1'. There is no choice but to hoof. Passing through the Spanish midfield is futile. That Manu forward substitute (forgot his name) was absolutely rubbish. He wouldn't run at all! You're not gonna to touch ball might as well make yourself bloody useful and hack some Spanish defenders ffs! It's games like these that AJ and Marcus Bent would fit perfectly.

Lescott was MOTM by a mile btw.

Tony mate ....."The problem we face is that we have a tiny squad of not great players and our creative players are being picked off one by one by the clubs above us, Rooney to ManUre, Lescott to Citteh, Pienaar to Spuds and now Arteta to Le Arse. Next to go will be Fellaini and our midfield starts to look like one that Norwich would put out. "......

That's absolutely right, our best players generally want to leave, IMHO to go and play REAL Football with a REAL coach who is POSITIVE, tries to WIN matches and is more concerned with how WE PLAY than the other team.

From what we hear around Goodison a key factor in Rooney leaving was his dislike of Moyes' "style" of coaching and play. Just look at Arteta at Arsenal, I posted on here a while back when he went to the Gunners saying that if Arteta plays really really well in Centre Mid then I'd have my answer about Moyes, I got it. Arteta wasn't in my Fantasy Football team when at Everton, waste of time, as soon as he went to Arsenal I got him, he's getting me shed loads of points despite getting on a bit.

Who would you rather play for, a Moyes team or a Wenger Team? I know where I would be (If I wasn't a mad Evertonian that is).

With Moyes at the helm, our most talented and creative players will continue to look for greener pastures where football is played as it should be to further their career (Unless they are a defender that is, we are good at nurturing them for some reason!!!!). "The beautiful Game", not a phrase that jumps to mind watching Everton over the last 10 years. Also, we are going to find it harder and harder to get quality players to come to us whilst Moyes is still here for exactly the same reasons.

As for strikers, forget it, Moyes is the grim reaper from Centre Forwards.

I don't think that being an international is any reason to claim a player is good, bad or indifferent and therefore not a valid case to judge the merits of a manager who has bought them or let them go.

Remember, an international team is purely the selection and opinion of one man. For England alone many players have been capped and flopped and each and everyone of us has an opinion on who should and shouldn't be picked. Prime examples: Arteta for Spain and Kendall for England were two excellent players who should have been capped and would have if other managers were in charge at the time of there ascendancy. Arteta is unfortunate that Spain have their greatest squad ever at the moment but England had many inferior players to Kendall back in his heyday.

If Moyes was England manager don't you think he would have capped Osman by now much to everyone else's chagrin? It's all down to a personal opinion which is subjest to much controversy.

Osman could easily play for Cyprus if he wanted, he qualifies. So doesn't matter if someones a international or not, Stephen Ward is and anyone who rates him don't know a footballer!