I don't think any right-minded supporter thinks nor believes that we can have a "perfect leader" at the helm, or that we necessarily have to "pay exhorbitant fees and meet ridiculous wage demands" in order to flourish as a club.

However, at the very least, you'd expect the chairman of a major football club to NOT be naive and to have a modicum of strategic, business and marketing nous.

The fact that Bill fails to adequately meet these basic requirements and has consistently cocked up when it matters (and I'll leave it to each reader to decide whether Fortress Fund, Kings Dock, etc, was due to "bad counsel" or straight-out lying) means that it really is debatable if he has contributed or proved a hindrance to ensuring the club endures.

I applaud you, Richard, for being man enough to admit that you no longer think Bill is no longer up for the job. However, I believe that the negative effects of Bill's legacy will extend far beyond the length of his tenure, in that it is on his watch that Everton has failed (and failed miserably) to capitalise on the Premier League becoming a global phenomenon, which would have really secured our long-term future and provided a platform for us to compete regularly on an equal footing with the Arsenals, Liverpools and Spurs of the world.

As it is, while we may continue to "operate within our means", the next owner will find that Everton as a global force is now seen as on par with the Sunderlands, Villas and Stokes of the world - in spite of the fact that we were one of the "Big 5" that initiated the Premier League - and for that I will always hold Bill to blame.

Doddy, I'll make allowances for you being pissed in the Freshy when you wrote that but would like to ask, if you think that Bill has been let down by bad counsel (presumably his friends Green and Leahy?) don't you think he should have stopped listening to them sometime over the last 10 years?

Richard. The two "exciting" signings are actually Jelavic and Gibson. Pienaar is on loan until the end of the season when he will return to Spurs who will either keep him on the bench or sell him to a club prepared to pay their price... so, unless we sell someone, it won't be us.

As previously mentioned, the fact ? according to you ? that he has continued to be naive and poorly counselled ? for 12 years ? in my opinion, shows him to be more culpable and thick than I previously gave him credit.

You stated a while ago you wouldn't post until the end of the transfer deadline as the issue at that time was improving the squad and spending the monies we had been led to believe we had, ie, Arteta, Beckford and Yakubu money. We now know that more or less all went to the bank, as most of us, apart from your good self and a few others, thought had happened at the time of the Arteta sale.

The sale of Bily has more or less gone straight away to pay for Jelavic. So our net spend has been the £250-£500k on Gibson. The loan deal out of Saha and the in deal of Pienaar has probably evened itself out wage wise.

So right now are we any further forward than we were at the start of the season? Are we any further forward than we were at the end of the summer transfer window? In my opinion, the answer to both is negative.

I think your article ? apart, of course from you admitting that Kenwright is no longer up to the job ? is just a rehash of other submissions from yourself, sycophantic. You say he has given us " all "a deal of confidence in the future" ... Sorry, Richard, please don't include me in "all" of you.

OK, John, he`s hocked the family silver to keep us in the top half of the greatest league in the world. What would you have rather him done, bankrupt the Club and see us do a Leeds or Sheffield Wednesday?

To me,it`s a pity that the banks of all the other clubs don`t ensure that they live within their means ? then we might get a more level playing field.

Richard. What would I rather have him done ?
Honesty - the list of his lies is endless and has been done to death previously.
Treating people with Respect - never mind the infighting on the Board with the Greggs etc, look at the genuine supporters. Getting rid of the only forum where he could be questioned.
The support, in my time supporting the team since the beginning of the 60's, has NEVER been so split and I blame that solely on Kenwright.
To be honest Richard, apart from the players contracts we own absolutely nowt.
Those contracts are only worth what someone is prepared to pay at that particular time. We are still in debt and I believe the debt will continue to grow even with selling the odd player here and there.
To all intents and purposes, and in any other business, we are already bankrupt !

I don`t really disagree with you, John. Open management has never been Bill`s style but then, he`s not alone in his `only tell the buggers what they need to know` philosophy. I don`t think that line has served him at all well but, if your very well-paid PR advisors keep pushing that line, what`s a man to do? I`d have got rid of them years ago not waited for a few e-mails to go astray but then, like you, I`m just a knobhead speccie!

Dear o dear Richard, what do you mean by suggesting Blue Bill 'do the decent thing!).

Richard, if it was just a case of 'telling the buggers only what they need to know' it wouldn't be so bad but why all the LIES all the time?

Forget about the past ( painfully short sighted, missed opportunities etc ) and let's look forward.

The people in charge will not invest their own personal wealth, they are in process of selling the club. This makes it even more unlikely they will have any credible plans for the club in the medium term, why would they?

Our only way to minimise losses is to sell players - our only assets left. I hope the B.U. go ahead and publish what each board member brings to the table.

At the moment, every fan in the ground adds the same value as these sharks, what do they do, apart from spin bullshit ?

I will start with an easy one, what are the plans for next season?

Doddy,

Bringing up Leeds Utd isn't a credible argument.

'What would you prefer, complete and utter financial meltdown, or just financial failure?'

There are other options. Gates over 35,000, richest league in the world, middling salary expenses, transfers on the cheap... some level of financial stability is the least of our expectations.

Richard. If you're saying Ross was behind Bills stance with the support, well Ross is now gone. Bill surely must know sections of the support are no longer behind him. He must know that disenchantment is only going to grow and that people are fed up with his Boys Pen line.

Bill can no longer blame his PR dept. Why then not reintroduce the AGMs? Bring in a proper fans forum? Be more open and honest? Richard, he can't because it was never the PR dept ? it's always been him and him alone.

He's in showbiz. He loves the limelight. He's the world's biggest egotist. It's never his fault, it's always someone else's. He will never change.

Our problem is that, rather than alter course, Capt Bill will go down with the ship and blame the iceberg.

Nick, I do believe that financial stability IS being achieved now but, as with any company in hard times, something/someone has to suffer to ensure that carries on.

With a football club, the something is transfer fees and wages ? and the someone is US!

John, I don`t know what`s come over me but I find myself (half) agreeing with everyone this morning!

I`d like to think that BK will now launch `a charm offensive` with the supporters ? not a bullshit exercise but a genuine attempt to tell it like it is and get fans to understand his position and where he sees the club going. To say exactly HOW and WHAT and by WHOM he is seeking a buyer and how he sees us progressing if no credible purchaser appears.

Gawd, I`m beginning to sound like BU.... psst, when`s the next meeting?

I'm pretty much in agreement with what you've said Richard... though I still can't understand why a buyer can't be found.

I used to believe that Everton's failings were down to his naivety, but the last couple of years has me thinking otherwise.

Richard. What has changed in the last 6 months, 3 months, 1 month that leads you to believe that financial stability is being achieved??

No investment has been put into the club. Wages to all intents and purposes are the same, less Arteta. Yes, the bank has pocketed the money from Arteta, Yakubu and Beckford but in the scheme of things its hardly dented long term debt.

Income has decreased. Look at the attendance for the City game, less than 30,000!!! We will still be losing money season on season.

Please don't let the feel good factor of the Fulham and City wins mask the fact that we are in the same position now as the start of the season. In fact possibly worse!!

So, Richard, Bill isn't a twat - he just behaves like one?
"Judge a man by his councellors" - Cardinal Wolsey 1529

Doddy, your main point is probably correct, albeit possibly for the wrong reasons.

I think Kenwright has bought himself mopre time. There was already a sizeable myopic tendency, refusing to blame Kenwright for any failings, clapping him like seals. We had a great performance v City and a couple of new/nearly new faces and I reckon the heat is indeed off him for a while. As John has said at 859, there's no new money, it is two in and two out. But people won't see it yet.

The cause of the problems remain: Kenwright's inability to manage a football club. His lack of vision, his refusal to be honest with the fans. His selling of the club's soul to Spurs supporters who want to make a killing.

The chickens are coming home to roost but you are right, maybe they will take a little bit longer now.

John, the CEO of the company has recently told us that things are now under control and the banks will, no doubt, be ensuring strict compliance to the business plan the club has signed to. Mr Elstone has a legal responsibility to tell the truth, so we have to accept his statements.

I do think things have improved if only in the sense they have not been allowed to get any worse. Modest improvement, I agree, but improvement nonetheless!

Richard, that you have come to your senses about Kim Jong Bill gives me hope that others may one day (actually I don't believe that for a second)...

I believe you are right, that Bill has kept some poor council down the years. I understand why he did that ? he was trying to play in a game where he didn't have the money to do it, and these characters may have offered an opportunity to do just that. But it would've also been a money maker for them.

I don't wish Bill to go down the path of other former unpopular owners of clubs (Peter Swales at City springs to mind) so he must do what is right for the club, and probably right for his own long term health, and find that mythical "right" buyer (not another "friend of Everton to loan more money).

The club is technically insolvent. Any "good" that was done with the recent wage restructuring will be undone by the drop in matchday revenue, so we'll still be in the same shit. It becomes self-fulfilling almost.

The club has failed spectacularly in a number of areas. The fact that our neighbours (who haven't won the league for almost as long as we haven't), even allowing for a bigger brand and fanbase, will next year report a commercial turnover that eclipses our entire turnover (matchday, broadcast and commercial) is a sad indictment on what we have become.

Sadly many of our fans live in the same world as Bill. All of this TV money and fans in Asia aren't important to us. Well, if we want to be able to offer average players a kings ransom to get them to play for us, it is.

In a fair world, Bill and his other major shareholders would get back what they'd paid for the shares. Sadly we don't live in a fair world, and a realistic buyer will offer them what the club is currently worth, which is certainly not the £150m one of his brokers is touting it for.

John, how can you say nothing has changed financially when we have lost the wages of Arteta, Yobo, Yakubu, Beckford, Pienaar, Saha and Bilyatedinov all of whom were reportedly on quite high wages? They have been replaced by loan players (who presumably we are paying part wages for) and Gibson and Jelavic, who I believe are on much more sensible wages.

Plus we have made a net profit of between £10-17m to pay off debt.

Still some way to go but heading in the right direction I'd say.

Surely these are all steps towards sounder finances no?

Phil, then again ........" never give a sucker an even break "..W.C.Fields

I'm actually prepared to give Moyes some credit now. Too often he seemed too stubborn to do any wheeling and dealing. I'm hoping he's pulled a masterstroke by getting rid of 2 wasters and bringing in some enthusiastic younger players.

I am amazed how fickle some fans are though. One win and 2 new players bought for not much money and people are swinging from the rafters with delight. It shows how desperate some fans have become for us to make a signing. Remember, it is likely that Gibson was a down payment on Rodwell (Alex Ferguson's "all part of the plan") and we know we only signed Jelavic because Rangers still owed us money from Ball.

The financial position of Everton FC is still perilous. We're still taking out loans to pay off loans. We're still taking loans from unheard of anonymous companies in the British Virgin Isles. We've still not got any assets left to sell other than players. Once Rodwell has been sold in the summer, very little will be spent on reinforcements.

The new found enthusiasm amongst Evertonians should not take the heat off Kenwright. Whether through naivety or through a more corrupt plot, Kenwright has still royally shafted Everton FC.

"Mr Elstone has a legal responsibility to tell the truth, so we have to accept his statements."

Richard!! and you call Bill naive?????

When Bill bought Everton he borrowed his share of the money from the Gregg's. He subsequently fell out with the Greggs over the KD project.

I assume they asked for the money back at that point? A sum far larger than Bill is worth or has ever earned. I can only draw one conclusion as to where he found this money and until it's paid back Everton will continue along the same lines as we always have, we will be for sale for the same price as we always have been and our best players will be up for grabs at the right price as they always have been.

Nothing has changed except a growing number of Evertonians can no longer bring themselves to support their club.

Richard, if you are saying that financial stability is staying up to our eyeballs in shit and not sinking any further then I suppose technically you are right.

Maintaining the same level of debt by selling off our only assets is not what I would call financial stability though.

If the club is approaching stability, Richard, which I doubt so very much, should we really want a man remaining in charge who has taken the club close to bankruptcy and to avoid this, asset stripped everything from players to bricks and mortar?

Everton are a shell of what he took over, and his only success is that we continue to exist.

Richard, I am pleased you have had a Damascus moment, really am, (finally) but the real issue is not that Bill sold the silverware to keep us alive, but mismanged the club in the first place that left him with little option but to do so.

It's not a case of what would you have him do, by that time it was already too late.

Claiming that it was the only way to keep us alive is a bit like the captain of the Titanic blaming the lack of life boats for the loss of life but not accepting responsibility for hitting the iceberg in the first place..

You get my drift..

Breathing space? the problems still exist, it may placate the fanbase but not the banks.

Indeed if all the other transfer monies have paid of a chunk of debt (not a bad thing in itself) this should make it more attractive to a buyer..

Which by default would mean Bill would benefit through a better sale price.. (he gets a better financial return after debt has been removed from any sale price). So, in a way, reducing the debt could end up benefitting him (and the other directors) when a sale is eventually done.

Not bad is it?

"Mr Elstone has a legal responsibility to tell the truth."


How exactly?

As for the rest of this thread, Mr Dodd... I'm glad to see the 'moderates' are beginning to see through the facade.

You should be congratulated.

Alan #896 I share the same concerns as yourself. There has been enough factual evidence presented on here regarding the mismanagement of the board that has not been refuted by even the most ardent Kenwright supporters. However, you cannot say "Remember, it is likely that Gibson was a down payment on Rodwell (Alex Ferguson's "all part of the plan") and we know we only signed Jelavic because Rangers still owed us money from Ball."

This is pure speculation on your behalf and provides the Kenwright supporters with evidence on the weakness of the arguments against him. Let's stick to the facts, Kenwright has proved his incompetence over and over again. Speculation and conspiracy theories add little to the argument.

Sam. I don't say nothing has changed financially. I don't say we are not saying we are saving on wages; what I say is, in the scheme of things, nothing fantastic has changed.

We sell Bily we get Jelavic
We loan Saha out we loan Pienaar in.
We save wages on Yakubu and Beckford. We pay on Gibson, who I read was on a good screw.
We loan Yobo out. We loan Drenthe and Strac in.

So as I say nothing greatly has changed certainly nothing to turn the club around. As I said in my post the main wage saved was Arteta but then we increase Fellaini and Barkley.

Regarding sales. Yes we use that towards the debt but our debt is increasing daily and I believe, again in the scheme of things, loss of revenue will soon swallow up the reduction the sales have given the present debt. Just have a think about it. At the end of the day it won't change the club around.

Richard,

I believe you are right when you say that Bill has been 'naive' and had 'bad counsel' as opposed to setting out to screw the club over. However, just like football is a results business, the only thing that matters in the off-field running of the club is the balance sheet.

We have been poorly run this last 20 years, while our rivals have made strides forward. They have all invested to increase revenue streams. Many have new stadiums and corporate facilities. I think Kenwright arranged for the Main Stand to have a lick of paint.

Kenwright is not a nasty man, and he is an Evertonian. But he has been in charge for the last 12 years, and we have gone backwards off the field in that time. He is responsible for that along with the rest of the board. Nothing personal, but we need a new board.

Ahh 24 hours of bliss, of burying my head in the sand, and believing all was rosey. But I know it's not true, that the same financial problems remain, the future is as murky and problematic as before (although I do believe the new players and lift it has given the supporters and squad will mean we won't go down this year) but hell it was a good 24 hours. I also believe that with these changes Bill will have bought more time from the happy clappers not those of us who can see the bigger picture, but I think it is round 2 to Bill in the battle of hearts and minds.

Totally agree,Danny,but we need a BETTER board not just a new one.So many clubs have changed hands in recent years and for many it has been for the worst.The game seems to be a magnet for charletons and Bill will do this club and its supporters no favours if he sells to the WRONG people.

An excellent and very level headed debate on the major issue surrounding EFC.And who could have expected Kenwright`s No 1 disciple to be conducting it?

Good on you, Doddy, I didn`t know you were capable of rational thinking. However, I just don`t see a way out of this terrible mess. As I`ve asked many times before ? who in their right mind would want to blow their wad on the club in its present state?

Only a mad billionaire or publicity seekers like the Venkeys is the answer and, with Blue Bill`s record, my money`s on the latter!

No matter who we've signed and for how much, we're still fucked long term.

That is, until we get someone in to do a better job...

Sadly, things are in such a desperate state that fans want change, for the sake of change.

Richard, you are correct. Kenwright is guilty but of trying to make us successful on money we didn't have. Selling for the sake of selling but to the wrong people will for sure ruin the club but some success on the field will lift the club possibly out of the mess that it's in. We are not going to get a buyer for the simple reason that EFC is a basket case and the current board is as good as it is going to get so why not give the club our support, that's what fans do.

As a small club in financial terms we have no right to expect success but despite the doom and gloom of the bed-wetters there is positivity in the air and that is exactly what is needed.

Martin

I'd be happy to give the club money if they would give us the opportunity to have a say in how it was spent but no chance of a shares/rights issue under this board.

And nice to see you've finally qualified your Benitez small club jibe and added "..in financial terms" ? About time.

Martin# 929 ? "and the current board is as good as it is going to get "

Do you really believe there is no better alternative, after letting players go because their contract had ran out (Gosling), knocking down one of the few corporate facilities we had (the tent), the lies, and no investment for the last 10 years, alongside a list of fuck-ups as long as this thread.

Hand on heart, this is best Everton & the fans can hope for?

2 games and a couple of signings should not mask the damage that has been done to our club by Kenwright.

When he took over we had a net asset position after all liabilities of £35 million which despite record levels of "Sky" income he has managed to turn into net liabilities of around £45 million.

We still have the unexplained operating costs of £24 million a year, up from £1 million a year when he took over.

There is and never has been a plan to take the club forward.

Richard,

Can you acknowledge that 'Bill' was 'the wrong people' when he bought the club?

In light of this, his 'so-called' protracted due dilligence is frankly laughable.

#939,

You can blame Kenwright for missed opportunities, holding poor counsel, lying to fans, and not employing a cut-throat corporate team to maximise revenue (which would include raising ticket prices).

You cannot blame him for not salary inflation, signing on fees, and agent fees. A net liability of £45 million is not bad in Premier League terms.

Too many are still scapegoating him for the hyper-commercialisation of english football.

Martin. How can we get "success on the field" if we don't have any money to buy players to give us it? We have to sell our better players to subsidise lesser ones, and the bank. Why should we expect that this is as good as it gets so just lets get on with it!

Does that apply to your life? I mean if you get £10k a year and a week in Spain you're happy? You wouldn't strive to get a better job to earn £20k a year and 2 weeks in Spain?

Football is sport ? it's a competition played with so-called professional players. The whole idea is to win, to get better, to improve. Not just stagnate!! Sorry, we should not just accept our lot.

Margaret Hilda Dodd manages the difficult task of combining understatement with spin to post a piece which is as about effective as an elephant hiding behind a bush. You?re fooling nobody Doddy; we all know you sleep with a picture of Gordon Clegg over your bed; a signed one at that!

?Whatever mistakes the self-proclaimed `Greatest Evertonian` has made ? and there have been a few ?A FEW? That?s like saying Thatcher had a little local difficulty with the miners or that Göring played a part in the redevelopment of Liverpool?s city centre.

I must admit I missed Scudamore saying that Everton were a well run club recently, but I did catch him saying Manchester City were, so that kind of sums him up. What CEO in their right mind would rubbish their product? Look at Robert Elstone; he recently attempted to explain the accounts to all us morons; he explained that David Moyes has enjoyed a net sum of £35m in the last five years and of course he was right, that?s exactly what is in the accounts. Everton?s accounts tell us that last year we spent over £11m on the purchase of players; thank god the team is measured on the pitch and not in the accounts. How strange it would be if Moyes tried to add 11 points from previous seasons to this year?s points tally.

Like I said, I didn?t catch what you?ve claimed Scudamore said, but I did hear him say this about Everton, the other week, in relation to the implementation of Financial Fair Play, ?The days when a new owner could buy a club like, say, Everton and have a crack at the big time will be gone. And with it, the dream of every fan mired in mid-table mediocrity.?

In that statement the legacy of Bill Kenwright, and that of the sad bunch that pass for a board, is laid bare. If I asked you which one of them has done absolutely nothing for the club, be honest, you?d be hard pressed to identify which one I was talking about. One is the architect of the downfall of the club, one never utters a word and the other is the biggest phony in the boardroom; collectively they must represent the worst board in the history of the club. Surely they really can?t expect us to believe that they?re actually conducting business at board meetings?

We can talk about Bill Kenwright?s machinations, appeal and failings until Anfield freezes over and we won?t agree because there are too many stories and interpretations on all those events that get mentioned time and time again.

However, there?s one event that can?t be misinterpreted because the whole event is documented, not just by the fans but by the Government.

Forget about the fact that he wanted to take us nine miles away from the city centre, three times further away that any Premier League club from its regional centre, forget about the appalling championship standard stadium, forget about the grossly inadequate transport provision, forget about all of that and just remember this. Bill Kenwright was as guilty as sin when the club told the fans Tesco were giving us £52m towards the construction cost of the stadium because it was a bare faced lie.

The lie was well documented. This £52m was described as an economic miracle during the inquiry; Tesco denied that they were providing any money whatsoever and Knowsley council eventually admitted that it was simply a value. £52m that was derived from the uplift in the value of the land once planning permission had been obtained, a value that would have eventually found its way onto Everton?s balance sheet, as the value attributed to the stadium that was costing £78m to construct, and a value that would have been realised by the major shareholders once the club was sold. Bill the biggest blue sold us out for a £50m payday ? and you can dress it up anyway you like, he was caught red handed. All the board are guilty of putting their own slimy self-interests before that of the club which is against the Companies Act they're all so fond of.

I looked at Bill Kenwright on that recent video and I was amazed at the state of the man at 13:00 on a Saturday afternoon; to me he looked like a junkie, barely coherent, he didn?t look able to sell a big issue never mind a Premier League club.

Lowering the tone a bit aren`t you Colin? Then you don`t do reasoned discussion, do you, just insult and bombast.

No wonder the man doesn`t listen to you!

I just don't understand the view by some that we are better off with Bill (and the board in general) running EFC or he is best placed to sell the club.

I understand people saying, there's nobody who wants to buy us or we'd be just as badly off with someone else in charge (I disagree but understand) but would prefer somebody else to at least have a go at trying to flog the club.

I confess I'm ignorant of Blue Union. If Bill loves EFC, not made any money, doesn't charge a penny of his time, has been trying to sell for 10 years, looks for investment 24/7 without sucess etc why doesn't he just give someone a chance ,as Blue Union I think suggests, of selling the club or looking for investment?

Again, an answer of , because he wants to ensure he sells to the right person just doesn't stack up does it ? Surely, the only answer is because he wants to be (or indeed has to be) in control of the price ?

Doddy, how is Colin pointing oput a couple of home truths lowering the tone of a propoganda post?

OK, Gavram, I`ll leave you to your hate and bile ? no date that will find us a new owner PDQ.

Colin thanks for explaining that.

I've always maintained "Kirkby" was a big money spinner for Kenwright & co, the railroading - "no plan b" (there should always be a plan b) and numerous other Timeshare techniques was enough to raise suspicion.

BK's Evertonian credentials went down the toilet for me with the treachery of leaving the city (cos that's what it was) and a minimum of £50m seems to have been the price - never trust him again.

Doddy can you enlighten me where in my one line it gives any HATE or BILE-NO DATE whatever the hell that means, and I'd love to find a new owner PDQ but not holding my breath after 12 years of BK's lies about looking and not finding a single one to date or his three this week timed to a tee for a BU protest or his man in a bedsit.

It's all too tiring and far too easy a target but we still have propoganda twaddle claiming he's done something other than spending the money from selling one player and ditching another from the payroll and replacing them with one permanent addition and another loan who isn't ours.

He failed to do the same for the last two years and the club's perilous financial state thanks to him and his board hasn't suddenly changed because of two wins and one signing

Richard,
Colin was talking about simple well documented facts...... Why do those that prefer to shoot the messenger always opt to ignore these, or even to sweep them under the carpet?

Moyes has been buying this lot time for over a decade now.... he has done it, and continues to do so despite them and not because of ANYTHING they bring to the table. The victory on Tuesday was achieved with the crumbs of a squad he has been afforded.

This board have delivered nothing during their entire tenure. In an era when most clubs have redeveloped their infrastructure and increased revenue streams to help realise their full potential.... some are enjoying the best average attendances in their history.

As a result of years of neglect, incompetence, mistakes and subsequent lies, this club is a pale shadow of its former self, and has fallen down the pecking order to probably its lowest stature ever. One or two wins, however desperately welcome, do not change this. This club is a fraction of what it could or should be....

Richard ? under the last Chairman we were running to stand still, under the many years of our current Chairman we ain't even doing that anymore. No trophies, no (as in none) improvements to an outdated antiquated stadium that is now an embarrassment, and many - many broken promises (how many interested parties??) Everton FC will never recover from the damage that has been done by the self confessed "Greatest Evertonian". That will be his legacy, and sadly ours.

This club is lying injured in the road, and Kenwright has been standing over slowly loading 2 bullets into the gun. Football has moved on, it's now global, we (very sadly) haven't, and it's ALL because of this parasite of a Chairman that we have and you continue to support. Richard can you not see the damage that has been done?

OK, you win! Get Bill out tomorrow and leave it to the Venkeys ? or their ilk ? to put everything right. You live in cloud cuckoo land.

Not a penny invested but experts on just about everything from picking the team to generating £millions in off-the-pitch income. How safe Everton would be in your hands! [That`s probably another six month suspension for me!]

I don't really consider Bill to be the scheming, conniving, lying snake that he is portrayed to be on here. I'm more of the opinion that he has failed, for one reason or another, to see his plans come to fruition. I do, of course, want new ownership (as long as that ownership is able to move us forward - not someone like the Venky's, as Doddy has pointed out). I do, however, think that all my fellow toffeeweb users (including Doddy) will see the irony/humour in the latest of Kenwrights productions. Enjoy.

http://www.kenwright.com/index.php?id=936

Dear oh dear Doddy, not a penny invested eh, that's a perfect description of Black Bill. His first shares in TBH paid for by Anita Gregg whose husband he later shafted with the FSF fairy tale (remember that one?) he then allegedly borrowed money from Green (actually posted on the web this but can't be bothered to find it) in both instances all he did with other people's money was to buy shares from the previous owners and the money changing hands went to them and not the club. The money the club has spent has been Sky money that even a chimp as Chairman would have earned and from the sales of players such as Lescott and Rooney.

If you have definitive proof beyond the fairytale of him mortgaging his £1m house for the supposed £20M Anita Gregg actually invested in buying Johnson's shares, please do share with us as he hasn't spent a penny of his own money in 12 years to the benefit of anyone else than himself. The DK farce nailed on his true colours as a failed carpetbagger who should be ashamed he even has the audacity to use his "True Blue" bullshit to deflect from the truth.

Actually Richard we don't need the Venkeys, Glazers or any other bored billionaire. All we need is a chairman with a good business brain, like Terry Leahy, backed up by a board and executive staff with experience of sports marketing, sports promotion, and an understanding of the world outside of Liverpool.

A board like this wouldn't give a short-term fix, but they would start to realise the global marketing potential of Everton FC and build us back into a position were we could give our manager a transfer budget every window and start rebuilding the old lady.

If Bill really is the world's greatest Evertonian, he would offer his share of the club for £1.

Doddy you should know by now that any article that is less than hateful when it comes to EFC management and Kenwright in particular is open to ridicule by the same old posters.
Nice try though!

Robert Kraft - owner of the NE Patriots. Turned them from a joke to the best team in the NFL. If it wasn't that we allow money to rule in the Premiership rather than talent, with our links to the NE Revolution we would be ideal for him.

Nothing changes - Kenwright out.

Rob Teo 851

"As it is, while we may continue to "operate within our means", the next owner will find that Everton as a global force is now seen as on par with the Sunderlands, Villas and Stokes of the world - in spite of the fact that we were one of the "Big 5" that initiated the Premier League - and for that I will always hold Bill to blame."

So you are saying that because two clubs have overtaken us in the premier league years , one being Chelsea the other Man City (both bought by mega rich owners and both teams that dont have a great record against us in recent years), we have fallen to the level of Villa or Sunderland! Where is the proof of this statement? Have they both finished in the top ten repeatedly above us for numerous years? Well a quick look and guess what, they have not done so. Have they spent more?

Frankly who cares. Do they have better teams than us? I dont think so personally, but that is my opinion, my choice based on my perception of the facts that I see. Maybe you have some facts that I dont, or maybe you just feel agrieved at the fact that we just dont have the money to compete. Yet for me, I still believe we are better than Man City!! Always will, especially when we keep beating them.It just depends on how and what you look for in the game these days. I always hope that we will turn things around as we have done so many times before. I think you may feel the same way too, you just express things differently!!

What's this? Blue Bill spending our cash buying time, I thought he told us he was skint, the lying bastard !

One sidelight to the usual parliamentary debate unfolding here.

Driving back down the East Lancs on Tuesday, at about 10.20, Appy Arry was on Radio5Live, live I think, explaining that as he hadn't been able to sign the midfielder he wanted he couldn't let Pienaar go 'for the good of the club', or words to that effect.

The loan deal came as a real surprise to all following that. And did I hear that it happened because Bill and Spurs' Mr Levy had had "a chat"? Very mysterious.

Perhaps not so strange as Arry's finances, but what could have gone on there?

Phil (032) - Slow your roll. The Pats weren't "a joke" before he bought them and we'll see about "best team" sunday against my Giants.

If you're saying Kraft would be perfect as a buyer of EFC, no argument. He's as good as it gets.

Steve (30) - Dean on.

R Dodd #860, he`s hocked the family silver to keep us in the top half of the greatest league in the world.

Yes, I agree our family silver!!
£60M of club assets vanished under him
£24M of extra debts under him
Negative transfer spend of £18M under him.

And you blame bad counsel?
He knew what he was doing to get Johnson out.
He knew what he was doing to get Paul Gregg out.
He knew what he was doing to get Dunford, Lynch, Wyness out.
He knew what he was doing with the Fortress Fund.
He knew what he was doing with the Kirkby project.

All were for the greater good of Bill Kenwright only with apparent zero benefit to Everton FC, so the bad counsel doesn't wash with me. Sorry but this man is a complete disaster for EFC from start to finish, a couple of wins and buying a couple of players does not alter the facts one iota.

Richard...

I've always felt an affinity with fellow Evertonians regardless of length of service, intelligence, background, geography, history etc ? but in your case I make an exception.

You are shameful, a detriment and a sham of an Evertonian
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity
(Buzz Lightyear 1995)

Duncan #886 "though I still can't understand why a buyer can't be found."

It's the asking price Duncan.

Richard, you know BK personally right?

Dean #050: The "proof" is in:

- How the red shite has managed to secure a 25 million pound/yr shirt sponsorship deal while ours is worth 3.5 million pounds/yr;

- How Man U and Liverpool top the global merchandising sales figures;

- How Man Utd TV, for example, has a weekly slot on one of the main TV broadcasting channels here in Singapore;

- How the number of Everton overseas supporters clubs is significantly less than those of Liverpool, Man U, Spurs, etc.

Also, if you read what I wrote again, my point was that as a "global force" we are now on par with Villa, Stoke, etc. I'm not referring to our club's history or pedigree or final league table standings or our annual transfer budget. I'm referring to how we are perceived as a global brand by fans of the Premier League worldwide, which in turn has a massive impact on merchandise sales, overseas TV rights, etc, which in turn have a massive impact on our ability to fund transfers and challenge for the title.

So, yes, you're right in saying I'm aggrieved that we don't have the money to compete - but not because we didn't have a sugar daddy to come in to buy us a la Chelsea or Man City. But because Kenwright, as board member then chairman, failed to capitalise on the global EPL boom + the fact that we had some massively popular overseas players (popular in their home countries - e.g. Li Tie, Donovan/Howard, Pienaar, Cahill) to really transform Everton into a household name globally. To put it into context, the red shite hasn't won an EPL title for almost as long as us. Yet they are miles ahead of us in the global brand identity stakes. And it matters because, like it or not, football/the EPL is now a global game, and Everton cannot rely solely on matchday income and kit sales within the UK only for its income if we truly wish to compete for honours on a regular basis.

Sorry guys I didn't mean that the present board were the best we could get, they certainly aren't. What I meant was they are as good as we are going to get because they aren't going to be changed. They've acted within the constraints of not having money, of course failing to generate money and not investing their own money.

I have no problem with living within our means but I have a gripe with them treating the fans with absolute contempt and operating behind a cloak of secrecy and deceit. They are probably doing the right thing and it would be good if all clubs were forced to operate within their turnover only.

And sorry about the "small club" comment, I only mean financially. We are of course a massive club history wise.

The shite have 5 European Cups and 18 League titles.

The manure have 3 European Cups and 19 League titles.

And you're asking why the global bandwagon fans support them and not us?

Personally I'd like us to field players for their footballing ability than sales factor. Otherwise why not go the whole hog and field the Qatar national team?

Its funny how after the team plays well and beats the top of the league all the moaners turn their sights on Kenwright. Gotta have something to demolish right?

In this instance, I happen to agree and think the man is selfish, deceptive, greedy and has done poor work by his first love. I also think that it looks exceedingly unlikely that new owners (the sort that we want) are going to come in. I'd love to be wrong.

Jason #132: Well, we were once part of the "Big 5", remember? And the shite hasn't won any league title since the inception of the EPL (though, fair enough, they did win the Champions League).

Also, I'm not sure convinced that the majority of "global bandwagon fans" know that the red shite has won 5 ECs and 18 League titles. They probably know that Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard are/were Liverpool players, or that the theme song of the club is "You'll Never Piss Alone", etc. But to say they know much about the heritage and history of the club, can't say I'm convinced. I mean, that's essentially what's meant by "bandwagon" fans, right?

Sorry to see this thread hijacked by `The Hate Mob` and the focus switched to the Red Shite.

I, for one, saw Doddy`s change of tune an indication that even Kenwright`s defenders were beginning to see the light which can only be a good thing. However,I don`t believe that spewing out contempt ? and worse ? for fellow Evertonians does anything towards the cause of replacing a useless chairman wiith someone more suitable.

Dear me Richard, #992

I know some people are naive but how bizarre you accuse ME of lowering the tone when you launch your latest pseudo critical Bill love in with a parody of Margaret Thatcher?s homage to St Francis of Assisi.

Some remain naive to what you attempt to post but the vast majority on here have long since had the measure of your love for Bill Kenwright. You and a diminishing band of the embarrassed actually believe all those stories about the boy?s pen, being with Eddie Cavanagh in ?66 and that he really has the best interests of the club at heart, any possibility of which was blown to pieces of the Kirkby debacle. I can only assume that your love for Bill is the love that dare not speak its name!

You?re left with nothing to offer but faux outrage once the facts are strewn across yet another of your thinly veiled posts supporting the person responsible for the Everton?s current dilemma.

This straw clutching mantra of Portsmouth, Leeds, and Sheffield Wednesday really is the death throes of the lost. Yes those clubs succumbed relatively quickly to their bad owners, but we?ve had our bad owners since 1999, the difference being we?ve been subjected to a death by a thousand cuts, but the conclusion will be exactly the same if the object of your desire remains not just at the helm but actually chooses the next custodians. How can anyone trust the man who attempted to deliver Kirkby and attempted to sell the club to a fraudster? If he really was the world?s biggest Evertonian surely he would see his failings and do the right thing for once, but no, he can?t; he can't because he entered into a Faustian pact and now its payback time for his master and his apprentice.

I know you?ll be back to offer more inane ramblings; you remind me of a bad smell, the same smell wafting through Goodison, the stench of the rotting corpse of Everton that Bill keeps in the boardroom like Mrs Bates was kept in the cellar. To be perfectly honest, it?s the only thing that?s actually come out of that boardroom for years!

Somebody rang me last night after reading my response to your post; they asked why I didn?t just talk more people round, my answer was simple; some people, after being shown all the evidence, are just beyond help.

BTW, he doesn?t listen to me because I?m just an ordinary Evertonian and of course he knows best, the evidence is there for all to see.

You're quite right, the board have bought themselves more time. Probably about 6 months or so, when another of our player assets are sold, with probably David Moyes only seeing 20% of the funds, to bring in one or two loan signings. I look forward to that very much so. The sooner Bill and his cronies get out of our club, the better. There's too many facts out there to suggest otherwise.

Phil Walling/Richard Dodd.

Ah the 'hate mob' and their 'spewing out' of 'bile' (ie: contrary opinions).

Oh and their 'lowering of the tone' and their lack of 'reasoned discussion' (ie: gentle sarcasm from what I can see).

NB: We are talking about a board so morally (and soon literally?) bankrupt, that imo, if there were mobs of Evertonians roaming Goodison Rd, with flaming torches, screaming 'burn the board!' it would not be an over-reaction.

If we are judged by deeds not words (as we SHOULD be) then imo, the actions of this board have been tantamount to saying to every Evertonian "You fucking mug, you dumb bastard, go fuck yourself!"

Reasoned discussion?

Contempt for fellow Evertonians?

Bill is an Evertonian and I have nothing BUT contempt for him.

And by the way, nobody (from what I can remember) on this thread has given it "Ah fuck off you nob-head!" so skip the 'Call me Mr Reasonable' nonsense and stick to answering the points raised.

Rob (106 and 154) ? Completely fucked that every word you said is dead on.

Oh man.

Kenwright et al OUT.

COYBU

This same old debate pops up about every half a day or so on here, and generally promotes the same comments {pro and anti} from generally the same people.

From my experience, as a match going supporter who spends a fair bit of time in the pub before and after games, the sort of stuff talked about on here hardly ever raises its head.

I've taken a straw poll every now and again and personally, I don't think BU has gained any more support than it originally had, and in some cases, lost some due to its juvenile utterings via facebook etc.

To be fair some proposals put forward by the group have been worth taking a look at.

Football Quarter on the face of it, seems like a great idea and is getting some local council support... it's got legs as they say, but unfortunately those legs aren't dressed in trousers with pockets full of money. Having read through the proposal, it's really just another retail development with a football club at each end of it, and I can't see how the clubs would benefit that greatly from having it, but at least they are trying to do something positive.

I'm not sure why, but the perception of BU generally in my experience is a negative one or that "they" are subversive in what they are trying to do, and perversely {some might say} Blue Bill still seems quite popular... maybe someone on here can answer that one.

My opinion, for what its worth, is that to have any positive effect on the future of the club, you have to be a stakeholder in the club or, in a group with the financial clout to exert an influence on the way the club is run, and for me, that means the only way forward is through Trust Everton.

Thanks, Colin, I knew you`d see it my way!

Richard ? if you read both of Colin's posts and you came to that conclusion, then you are deluded or mad... but maybe both.

Colin, waste no more of your time on this thread. It is like ? and, yes, I know this is a crass analogy ? the neo-Nazi, confronted with incontestable proof of the holocaust, who says "I spit on your proof".

All irony lost!

Steve #234

Just to correct you on a few points. First of all The Football Quarter has nothing to do with the Blue Union; never has and never will. Secondly, I have no idea how you, having read the prospectus as you have claimed, come to the conclusion that ?it's really just another retail development with a football club at each end of it?. As one of the authors of The Football Quarter prospectus I can assure you it is nothing of the kind. I?d read it again and try to understand why it?s designed to for in with local and regional redevelopment frameworks and why so many influential people are supporting the initiative.

If you ask me why Bill has support it's because too many people are unable to see past the facade; too many people are ignorant of what has happened to the club over recent years.

You mention that some of the proposals put forward by the Blue Union are worth taking a look at; they?ve only made one proposal to date and of course it?s being ignored because ordinary football supporters couldn?t possibly understand anything that goes on in the club, could they?

As for your comments on Trust Everton I agree it has tremendous potential, just like the FQ, but not for this board; the only plan they have is to sell the club. I?d also say that the fans are stakeholders Steve; the fans inject over £20m into the club every year; surely that should count for something?

Colin 326,
Forgive me for saying this is a BU proposal, it is of course SOS & KEIOC, although with KEIOC being part of the amalgam that is BU, you can understand my thinking.
Anyway, I'm sorry but I do think this is basically a retail development, that development may also lead to regeneration of the area in general, but I can't see it happening without it.
It is plain to me that Football Quarter would rely heavily on enabling funds from commercial partners, in my experience {and yours no doubt} there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I do agree with you that all supporters are stakeholders and really that should count for everything, but it doesn't any more it seems, my reason for being so committed to Trust Everton is because hopefully, it will become a group with real spending power if needed, the club might not want to listen to us as individuals, but they will listen if we've got a few million in the bank.

Richard - "I`d like to think that BK will now launch `a charm offensive` with the supporters ? not a bullshit exercise but a genuine attempt to tell it like it is and get fans to understand his position and where he sees the club going. To say exactly HOW and WHAT and by WHOM he is seeking a buyer and how he sees us progressing if no credible purchaser appears."

I think there's little likelihood of that happening; one of the irritating things about Kenwright is how unaware he seems to be of everything to do with the club.

I'm looking forward to a good display from the team today and they build on some momentum from a couple of gritty efforts, rather than fantastic quality. The fight and passion returned I pray for it to continue!

Colin l am really not sure how much the average fan cares about anything other than the game, they should but many can,t be bothered to look and listen or even ask. As these articles prove, some don,t want to see, some don,t care to look, or some just don,t want to listen to something they just don,t understand.

Where does that leave the Internet warriors? They are not insignificant in number or of understanding, just leverage.

Are they always right? No, but they ask the right questions and amongst the miriad od answers is the truth.

The wonderful thing about the Internet is it's ability to connect thoughts that shape thinking, by honing down comment into probability you end up with conclusions that can be very close to the truth. Such is the power of collective refinement of comment.

Like a jigsaw there are many pieces the are the same shape and almost look right, but it's the attention to detail that.finally solves the problem.

With BK it's the same, so many pieces that people don,t look at, they all seem the same but only a few notice the discrepancies.

BK paints a great picture but none of the pieces fit.

The picture is not the same one as on the box.

The strength of the Internet is also it's biggest failing, so much information masks the truth. It's forums like Toffeeweb that filter the lies, misinformation to link the dots. It may not be they whole truth but l bet it's pretty close.

Richard,all irony was not lost. I do realise that your last post was ironic, though unsubtle and ineffective. I was referring to previous posts which attempt to defend the indefensible.
Having said that, we need an opposition and to your credit you are it.

The truth of the matter to why the club hasn?t been sold is simple, it isn?t for sale!

Old Bullshit Bill believes he is the only person alive who knows best for the club! He is completely drunk with power.

I agree Jelavic, maybe Gibson and Pienaar on loan are good signing but to compare the cost of bring them in to the money that has come in from the sales of Arteta, Billy and the rest is not even close and frankly laughable.

We?ll be in the same position next year with a buyer coming in soon and all we have to do is be patience! Bullshit!

Never mind in couple of years under old Bills lead we will be competing for a title Division 1!

Steve, #330

I understand your confusion but the Football Quarter was conceived long before The Blue Union came to the public?s attention. The FA is part of UEFA but you would never suggest that the UEFA Financial Fair Play regulations was a FA initiative.

Retail developments are described as such because that?s what they are; they?re dominated by retail outlets and examples of this are Liverpool One, Destination Kirkby and Project Jennifer. An example of a commercial development is Liverpool Waters. The Football Quarter is envisaged as a destination for much more than what you have described as a retail development and, no offence, that?s why I challenged your statement as I don?t want people left with the wrong impression as to what it actually is; the green shoots of which, and the mechanism behind it, will shortly be in the news.

The FQ doesn?t provide any enabling funding to either club who, as private businesses, are responsible for their own commercial activities. There is, as you say, no such thing as a free lunch and for Everton?s current custodians this will be a novel concept but it?s a tried and tested one that every other premiership club adheres to.

I agree and also believe Trust Everton could indeed provide the conduit for fans to be really involved in their club but talking about it and doing it are completely different matters. In one way it?s unfortunate the proposal has come forward when we have a lame board whose only raison d'être is to sell the club; on the other hand the hard work can be done now in anticipation of new owners who will hopefully have with them a little bit more than a wing and a prayer strategy that we?ve had to endure over the past twelve years.

A very sad state of affairs as Evertonians reading this thread.....People's Club... It's about the click and the buzz you get when you meet a real blue in the flesh, the unconditional love... This club will survive, we may not win anything but for fuck's sake put an end to the whinging on here... COYB

And for those who don't know how the Football Quarter has been adopted by the city council here's the leader of the council speaking in The Guardian just a few weeks ago http://www.guardian.co.uk/local-government-network/2012/jan/26/regeneration-practice-liverpool-football-quarter.

This whole "buying time" thing puzzles me a bit. The mess this club is in, is very long established (certainly over a decade in the making).... and will be barely affected by winning or losing our next few games. The mistakes and ineptitude were equally evident when we were challenging for European places. Yet the general fanbase's attitudes towards this predicament and its causes can change from one game to the next.... it's truly bizarre! Are we the most Bipolar supporters in the league.... or does it just appear that way? We need to look beyond a few results or even the odd good, bad or indifferent season.

Colin 431:

Maybe my comment about it being "just another retail development" is a bit flippant, and I'm happy to withdraw it, because it's probably a bit scornful of the hard work that's gone on in coming up with this concept, but, as you state above, "The FQ doesn?t provide any enabling funding to either club who, as private businesses, are responsible for their own commercial activities."

But FQ in my opinion, is wholly dependent on both clubs remaining where they are now... for what? The proposal is wide-ranging and inclusive and would regenerate an area of the city that has been neglected for far too long. Joe Anderson's backing of the scheme is admirable but it's only words; he's already intimated that no funding would be coming from the council, hasn't he? I can't see the clubs tipping over any money for zero return, likewise with any other commercial enterprise.

Having said all that, you and the other people involved in this proposal have my respect for the work that you have done on this. If it ever comes about, I just hope that the Everton end doesn't become the EPCOT of Football Quarter.

Oh, and forgot to mention, I'm getting a "free lunch" tomorrow in the Brian Labone Suite, although it's not free as I've already bought tickets in the St End !!