The record David Moyes needs to improve in his second spell with Everton

We've been shite for years so our current aim should be mid table safety before we think about anything else.

Thinking about beating the best teams regularly is well out of our reach at the moment and all it does it breed disappointment.

Baby steps. We need to solidify ourselves as a team no longer flirting with relegation before we start getting ideas above our station. I'll be very happy if we finish around 12th or above this season. It's the next few years where we'll be looking to push higher up the league.

Come 7th, come 10th, come 14th, come fucking17th even, but please just try and win us a cup.

- tinkering with the formation

- going for it

- demanding intensity

- playing someone who hasn't played for a while, and therefore escapes criticism for recent poor performances

- blooding a youngster from the academy

Unfortunately, we've had a long line of incompetent cowards in the managerial hot seat.

Instead of instantly adopting a safety first line up and hoping to snatch a draw.

I am not suggesting we go gung ho, but at least have a go at these so called top 6.

I think we lack the pace to be a full on counter attacking team, but that doesn't stop us actually attempting to create chances does it?

Funny to see the defeatist excuses flooding in so early "we've been shite", "not realistic", they have "much better players", "baby steps', let's beat Brentford! These posters normally wait at least until 30 minutes into the game when we are 2-0 down.

I hope we see Moyes 2.0 in action and a proactive gameplan. Treat every league games as winnable and target a cup, and Everton fan will back you 100%.

I can’t remember the last time we played away from home (against a sly six side) and expected a win.

Even now I don't think Everton are capable of a sustained effort in a European competition.If Cup form over many Managers and many seasons is a precursor Everton do not have the squad or the ability to utilise a squad for multiple competitions.The primary objective is to stay in the Premier League where up to now Everton have a recent prolonged history of fighting relegation.

All we can do is demand improvement and not be content with the odd good result in a attempt at least to raise the level required to progress.Highlghting the obvious as stated in this article is part of that process.

The day we allow Moyes to fill us with the sop of 'the Peoples Club' is the day he should be gone.As for pace the players should be allowed to play beyond the pace of Moyes's brain.

An analysis of the results since the start of the Premier League shows Everton’s performance as follows

Home Away

Win Draw Lose Win Draw Lose

Pre-Moyes 13 (24%) 20 22 7 (13%) 13 33

Post-Moyes 19 (23%) 23 25 4 (6%) 19 47

Moyes 24 (34%) 18 29 8 (11%) 21 41

Sorry - but even putting in spaces, it still does not look like a table.

In terms of Points compared to the maximum available,

Pre-Moyes we achieved 59 (36%) at home and 34 (21%) away while Post-Moyes it was 80 (40%) and 31 (15%).

In the time Moyes has been in charge (including the 7 games last season) he has achieved 90 (42%) and 45 (21%). So he was better at home than any of the managers before or after him and as good as the ones before him and better than the ones that followed when playing away from Goodison.

I am sure there will be shock that the column for wins under Moyes away from home is not Zero. They were at Spurs and City, the latter who were in the Championship (and lower) for 5 of the 33 years of the Premiership. Since his departure at the end of 2013-14 the results away from home have been equally poor with 3 of the 4 wins coming during the Covid hit season of 2020-21. The other was famously the win at United when Moyes was their manager.

The return from the matches at Goodison Park post his departure hide another shocking statistic. Those 19 wins include a combined 2 against Liverpool, City and Spurs.

My conclusion is that Moyes sets out to beat teams at Goodison Park but it is away from home where he has suffered the complaints about his lack of bravery because we all look at his failure to win at Mordor, Emirates, The Bridge and the Theatre of Screams during his tenure.

That in the 245 games away at the Sky6 since the start of the Premier League we have only registered 15 wins is probably more a testament to the club than an individual manager, especially when half of those wins have been against City, Moyes winning there for 4 consecutive years.

I always got the impression that -- no matter what season you pick, who was in the team or out, who the opposition was -- that wins were always despite Moyes, not because of him.

More often than not, draws and losses could be turned into wins and draws if he'd just take a little bit (nothing Keegan-esque, mind) more of the initiative.

Steady the ship and move on.

- he can consistently over achieve with a non-competitive budget. That’s his sweet spot as per your stats Phil.

- he won’t risk material under achievement (which could mean relegation) by “going for it” without a competitive budget (and noting that every club bar us and 5 very rich established clubs have been relegated in the Premier League era suggests that this is boring but not wrong as such).

- his approach (maybe dictated to by club management, maybe not) is not well suited to cup competitions where at some stage you have to beat a few excellent teams.

- his approach is not well suited to a genuinely big / rich club with a competitive budget.

So for so long as we don’t have a competitive squad and budget (ie like this summer and probably next) Moyes is a good fit.

It’s not the Moyes glass ceiling we’re currently experiencing, it’s the financial glass ceiling. Moyes is currently helping to get us closer to the financial glass ceiling than we might otherwise be.

Agree with your last paragraph but would you trust Moyes to spend big money to break through the financial glass ceiling? or do you think he would sit on the budget and keep a cautious approach knowing where his bread and butter is?

I responded to Christine Foster’s article -- Bridging the Gap -- a few weeks ago but the editorial team decided against publishing it.

I don't think that's quite correct. There's no record of us receiving a comment from you on that thread (although we did get one from your doppleganger in Kelsall). If we'd have got one, it should be there.

Rob # 16, it’s academic. Moyes will be gone before we are rich again. But no, he’s not the guy for a big budget or a big club.

We beat Liverpool, Villa and Man United on the way to the 2009 cup final.

We also got our last win at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea in the 2011 FA cup. We also beat Bobby Robson's Newcastle side that finished 3rd in the league that year, in a league cup tie at St James Park in 2002/03.

Bar Martinez beating Chelsea in the QF of the FA cup in 2016 and winning the 1st leg of the league cup semi against City (but not the 2nd) who has beaten a decent side in a cup game in recent memory?

Steve stop complaining with us being passive and negative. Don't comment on threads specifically asking you to comment on them. Instead You will have to wait for 75 more transfer windows (for spending that is never going to happen) listening relentlessly to how much Burnleys summer net was or how brilliant Ipswich's left back is or how we are inferior to squads who have few internationals and others who haven't even had Premier League level experience or quality.

Don't worry Steve my friend there is hope, once we have the likes of Roberto Carlos and Cafu as our marauding full backs and two centre backs like Ferdinand and Van Dick we will be able to stop thinking about camping on our six yard line every first half.

Only then could we compete with the likes of the worst Man Utd in decades in a one-off game.

However despite annoyance at your critique of the manager it still dawn's on your critic that allowing for 75 windows and having the most complete squad in world football with rapid athletic defenders, we would still fucking play on the back foot with this manager as history proved at United and West Ham.

The rest of my post was my sentiment, as surely it is time to pivot from the traditional Moyes tactical game plan against the “Big Six”. Why? Because it has been an unmitigated failure.

As they say, the definition of insanity to doing the same thing and expecting different results.

I find this financial glass ceiling narrative as dull and repetitive as it is simplistic. It simply shows a lack of understanding of how businesses think and operate.

A CEO and/or owner will set the strategy and goals, demand greater value from the resources they invest in, expect improved standards and better operational delivery. They will do that while looking at all opportunities to reduce cost.

They want more for less and won’t wait 5 years for delivery (or 75 transfer windows), regardless of the level of investment made.

Nor will TFG I am guessing.

There are people on this sites I respect a lot Conor, and you are one of them mate. Keep posting Conor. I plan to do the same.

And we will storm league I guess 😂
Just replace any manager and we will be winning trophies.

When do Everton ever win trophies ?

Three years 40 years ago.

When our wage bill is the same as Man City’s I will expect us to beat them.

All of which this manager has done since he first arrived at the football club.

Who else has done that ?

Answer me that question?

We do pretty well to be 7th to 12th in all reality

Above all, because none of these responsibilities are his job.

I do struggle with why you think this financial glass ceiling is superficial though. If it were not, then logically the Premier League would not be dominated by the richest clubs from time to time. Yet it is. That’s exactly how it works.

One or sometimes two of the richest clubs balls things up (eg Man Utd and Spurs last season) but the remainder are all there or thereabouts (and of course crappy Spurs managed to win a trophy too).

And even if we can buck the trend with a CEO who sets high targets and demands more for less, surely everyone can do the same.

Sunderland for example could set a higher target and demand even more for even less.

Or more realistically richer clubs might notice our cunning plan of setting a higher target target and raise their own accordingly.

One the dust has settled after everyone has set and reset their targets - then presumably the league returns to normal - with the upper echelons and cup trophies dominated by the richest clubs?

Steve #30, in a successful business operation those "responsibilities" are everyone's job, from the owner down to the third-string keeper and everyone in between.

"Would you trust Moyes to spend big money to break through the glass ceiling?".

In his last 3 seasons at West Ham he spent 75m,197m and 145m euro respectively when West Ham spent big money. Those figures would be closer to being doubled if applying them to today's market.

Of the players signed only Vlasic, Scamacca and Kudus were under 25. Here is a list of the players costing over 20m euros during West Hams splurge. It doesn't include other experienced transfer failings like Ings and Phillips during that period as they don't meet the criteria.

Zouma 35m, Vlasic 30m, Pacqueta 43m, Scammaca 39m, Aguerd 35m, Cornet 21m, Kudus 43m, Alvarez 38m, Ward Prowse 35m, Mavrapanos 20m.

Not only is that list worrying from a quality point of view with only Pacqueta and Kudus being considered value for money. However more importantly the real consequences were that Moyes left them in a total mess. They were down in 14th place with an aged, unbalanced poor squad with only a handful of sellable assets and a plethora of dead wood you couldn't give away.

They have now shifted their transfer strategy with more recent additions like Diouf, Fernandes, Summerville and Mangassa all 23 or younger and a lot more academy graduates getting opportunities like Potts did when he changed the game against us. They have had to start again from a low base.

The difference between our predicament and theirs is that we had to get rid of many of our crown jewels and operating on net deficits to arrive in the mess we did. They arrived in 14th having just spent 417m euros in the previous 3 seasons.

Moyes hasn't improved standards since he came back?

Okay.

The owners could say "We set a target to win the Premier League within the next 2 seasons. We want to do this by cutting costs."

Until we get a wage bill of £400M plus (currently about £160M), it ain't happening.

West Ham finished 9th in Moyes final season. Not 14th. The 14th place season was due to competing in, and winning, their first trophy in forever.

They did finish 14th last season, without Moyes, and having spent a fortune on more players with only one of the under 23 names you mentioned being brought in at that time.

Why did they only start buying lots of young players 12 months after Moyes left if he was the only problem in that regard?

Besides, bringing in young players guarantees nothing as you point out. 66% of the under 25's that Moyes signed, that you make mention to, left for a loss after disappointing.

Can you blame a bloke, in a results driven industry, for bringing in players that can produce specific useful things now, rather than waiting to see if a young player can do so further down the line?

"Moyes took relegation-bound West Ham to regular European finishes and a European trophy. They've still got some cracking players thanks to his stewardship."

Take out the European trophy and isn't that exactly what he did with us first time round?

Distinct, was a brilliant replacement for Lescott, at less than a quarter of the price, but Billyletdown, (a player I don't think he had really watched -I think/hope!) and Heitenga, (who I could maybe understand because of his versatility - until I watched him playing midfield!) were not really two players who were going to help move us forward, imo.

Moyes did have the bases of sides that could have been challenging and maybe even won something, but he just didn't have the belief, nerve, and confidence to pull it off.

5 trophies in 40 years doesn't scream we're a trophy-winning machine club. And Moyes built that team up on a shoestring

If it was as easy as you and your acolytes make out, why didn't Ancelotti, Benitez, Silva, Lampard, Dyche, win any trophies by ‘going for it'???

For fuck's sake, lads, Moyes may not be the Messiah but he sure as hell is 100% better than what we have had since he left, with the exception of Ancelotti.

Be grateful that we are looking to finish Top 10 and improve from there.

Moyes did have opportunities Those that you mentioned were in the period when the wheels really did start to come. off.Even so Ancelotti had a win record to compare to Kendall.But in additional Cup competitions it takes Professional preparation back up in depth within the Club, Which Everton still do not have.

Even under a refinanced Everton with a new stadium Moyes will only perform to his glass ceiling.But he will achieve the objectives of keeping Everton comfortably in the Premier League. For Ancelotti Everton were the only side he managed that didn't qualify for Europe..

Rather than acolytes Ryan, we are just realists.

I hope he doesn't laugh at me too much as his club like dozens of others are still splitting their sides after pulling Moyes pants down for 12m euro for Thilo Kehrer.

You alluded to the fact he had a 33% success rate with those under 25 with those I mention. His strike rate with those over 25 you would need a calculator to find the decimal points.

I hope you weren't a poster who has slagged off our transfer strategy under the Moshiris era. Moyes signings at West Ham make us look like geniuses.

For me football is played by players. And until we have a volume of players that would dominate a combined XI, we will continue to play plucky losing football.

You can put any manager in the dug out. A miserable scot, an Italian great, or Paul Fucking Daniels. It won't change jot.

The bottom line is a conbined XI tomorrow sees no Everton player in the side and why we are 7.5/1 to win. Knife to a gun fight? no its just the reality of a big fish vs a little fish.

Ancelotti caused more damage to Everton than Moyes ever has. Everton have their own class ceiling -- it's not a manager glass ceiling.

You're so full of contractions mate -- Ancelotti gets a free pass for some unknown reason despite massively underachieving at Everton... but the manager who actually makes Everton better gets brick bats from you and your acolytes. I really don't understand it at all.

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think Moyes wanted Distin to make that backpass... or Howard to let in that goal v Chelsea. The wheels started to come off when Moyes left the club.

Don't believe me? Look at the league tables before he came and after he left.

What's been their league positions since he left?

It's West Ham. What was he expected to do there?

A fantastic job for himself and an even better one for his Chairman; but, for people like myself, they changed the narrative... so hopefully David Moyes can help to try and change it back!

Yes, he did a fantastic job in his first spell here. Look at the state the club was in before he came and look at the state of the club after he left.

One trophy in 40 years, 5 in about 60 years, tells me it wasn't David Moyes who created a glass ceiling.

So it is with Bill Kenwright and David Moyes. A perfect fit. They were, but it wasn't done to inspire Everton to be the best, it was a combination forged to suit the purposes of both parties, but in the main, keep the status quo.

As Bill Kenwright oversaw the worst ever period of decline on and off the pitch, David Moyes shuffled his deck and kept the team afloat with minimal resources. Until of course even that was not enough and using credit cards to pay credit cards for a few more lawnmowers eventually had to end.

But it had a sting in the tail, a willing investor in Moshiri and his association with Usmanov enabled King Bill more time as Chairman.

Moyes is not the Messiah. Never was... Never will be. He was and still is only a means to an end. He was appointed again as a sensible step towards safety last season, and rightly so in my opinion. Surely that deserves another season? No, not in my book.

Instead of a fresh start, a bright future and hope, our owners chose what exactly? Stability. Possibility of being best of the rest once more. It's not my Everton. It's not what I was brought up on. It's not good enough.

My last article, Bridging the Gap, attempted to look at how any club -- and in particular, our own -- can become a force to compete at the top table of football in the light of the fortress around the top clubs in the league.

Money alone is not enough; ruthless desire and drive of owners and managers to succeed is also needed and, right now, that is the very thing that is missing.
Whilst the re-appointment of Moyes made sense as a short-term fix, to allow him to rebuild the team means a tenure of stability at best, frustration at worst; reality lies somewhere in between.

It also means the very act of rebuilding around Moyes's philosophy of football consigns us to 4 or 5 more years of the same. As I look ahead, the chances of another trophy are disappearing in the distance and I fear my demise may occur long before a trophy cabinet is opened under Moyes.

I think TFG have made a mistake in appointing him to rebuild. I hope a fresh, hungry and more talented manager is found to take that drive, desire and hope we all have as supporters and make it happen to grace the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and make us proud.

Winning the Europa Conference League was a similar achievement to Russel Martin getting promoted with Southampton.

You play a lot of crap teams, get to the semi-final (play-offs) where you are likely to play a Spanish, an Italian and one other surprise team (Olympakos, Feyenord etc) who are of equal or slightly inferior quality.

If you win those games, you become Champions (get promoted). You don't have to excel to win that trophy, hence the reason he has never won a domestic one, like Glasner, Howe or Martinez achieved -- who all beat powerhouses along the way.

For what it's worth, Ryan, I think he did a very commendable job overall as a manager in terms of consistency. That's what you can achieve playing percentage, no-risk football.

Finishing 6th with an inferior squad to Ancelotti's was a decent achievement and the highlight for me. I don't say he was a bad coach there but, when given sufficient funds, he made them worse, not better, and as dreadful a manager Looetegui is, he was left a real hospital pass.

Likewise he did a really decent job here first time around and also his return last season was magnificent.

It must be noted that he was a disaster at Real Soceidad, Sunderland and Man Utd whom he turned Champions into a team struggling to qualify for the Champions League.

I think Christine's post would resonate with a lot of Everonians.

Kenwright only became Chairman in June 2004 and by then we had had a 7th place finish and a 17th because we were already safe and took 2 points from the last 18.

I do not consider his tenure to be the worst decline on and off the pitch -- that was Peter Johnson.

If we achieve stability and then steady improvement, I'm not sure what you'd have to write about. In fact, part of me wonders whether you'd be disappointed as you couldn't continue with your one-note bleating.

What Moyes did in the past has little to no connection with what is happening now. He may or may not prove himself to be the right manager for us this season. I'll judge him on that -- not your, frankly, pathetic rants about him and Bill Kenwright.

We know where you stand. You've said it until you're ‘blue' in the face, and it's becoming boring. You're the guy in the pub who really only has one subject when it comes to conversation and, whether I agree a bit, a lot, or not at all, it's all just a bit mind-numbing.

I challenge you to change the record and try to judge what you see rather than pre-judge based on your two-decade-old world view. I realise the latter gives you comfort but, for fuck's sake, it's as pathetic as talking about knives to a gunfight.

When I'm at the match next weekend, you'll be 11,000 miles away and in a different time zone. I suspect you'll also still be stuck in 2004 and making comments you wouldn't consider making if you were sat in the South Stand of our new stadium, watching Jack Grealish score the winner (the same Jack Grealish who has repeatedly named David Moyes as the reason he came to the club and his inspiration) and sensing a small but noticeable breath of fresh air when it comes to Everton.

Moyes may or may not be the right manager for us. We'll see. In the meantime, I know we can continue to expect nothing more from you than the repetitive rhetoric you have trotted out for many, many years, dressed up as you ‘caring so passionately' about the Toffees, but which is just an excuse for you to say the same things in a small variety of ways which say more about you than they do about 2025 Everton FC.

I can easily admit I do not get to the game much as my mum is 90, so I do have to up on QT. But does it matter where she lives? She is a scouser and a blue. Are you superior 'cos you get to the game on regular basis?

I have witnessed plenty of abuse aimed at our players since the '70s from our 'loyal' fans and she is capable of defending herself.

But to repeat, Christine is entitled to her opinion.

"I hope you weren't a poster who has slagged off our transfer strategy under the Moshiri's era. Moyes's signings at West Ham make us look like geniuses."

I don't really care who Moyes signed at West Ham but, if they were so bad, how did he win a European trophy with them?

Problem was the only player on the pitch tuned to the same wavelength was Leon Osman so he failed to make any real impression.

"Instead of a fresh start, a bright future and hope, our owners chose what exactly? Stability. Possibility of being best of the rest once more. It's not my Everton. It's not what I was brought up on. It's not good enough."

I think for all the richness of your distant memories of Everton's glory days, your memory of the very recent past has slipped into oblivion. And I think you are looking at this in the wrong way.

Stability? Hallelujah, hail and huzzah. When Moyes came aboard... just months ago... stability was a lost dream. We had none and had gone without it for three seasons. We seem to have it now (emphasis on seem), in no small measure because of Moyes's ability to instil belief in the players, and because Moyes himself persuaded a top star to join us.

Do you think Grealish would have agreed a loan to Everton if Moyes had been dismissed with a "Well done and see ya" in May? Not according to Grealish. It was Moyes who won him over (Dewsbury-Hall said the same, I believe).

That's where rebuilding begins -- with a foundation of good players. Friedkin has decided Moyes is the man to pour that foundation. You disagree; so be it.

But to me, the idea that appointing him "consigns us to 4 or 5 more years of the same" is a wild leap of illogic. No club owner hires a manager with that span of time in mind. (Certainly not Friedkin, who is on his 6th manager in 6 years at AS Roma.)

I think we can all agree that what Everton have needed for a long time is a foundation of young talent. And I think most here would agree that, based on one transfer window -- one -- Moyes is off to a very good start.

But I see zero evidence that Friedkin has committed the club's entire future to Moyes, and I give zero credence to the idea that he will blindly entrust Moyes to command the entire lengthy rebuilding process.

Dan Friedkin is not Bill Kenwright, and you haven't the slightest idea whether or not "the ruthless desire and drive of owners and managers to succeed" is missing in him.

I would remind you that the best team in England looked like drifting flotsam for the first three seasons that Fenway owned it. But 10 years on, you can see the ambition they always had.

If all goes well and Friedkin has put the right executive team in place, Everton will be built as Liverpool was, on a solid base with gradual improvement under innovative management. That will most definitely not be Moyes in my opinion.

His initials may be carved in the foundation, but when we start winning silverware in 2027-28, he won't be the guy carried around the pitch by the players, whether they are the ones he signed or not.

And I think writing off our new owners based on one hire that has so far turned out quite well (47 from 29, correct?) is a very, very strange take.

This is a claim and I don't think they are... and their supporters are Gobshites.

That's why I think it's imperative that we qualify for European competition asap. If we don't, we won't be able to attract and keep top-calibre players.

A Top 8 finish is a must and we can do it if we buy wisely in January. Already we have a very good side so it isn't a fantasy to think like this.

These past few decades have been wasted because of poor leadership from the boardroom. Now we have owners with a totally different mindset. We can do it.

He won a cup for West Ham, and a lot of their supporters were glad to see the back of him, and he won absolutely nothing with Everton, and got clapped out of the stadium, which tells me that you’re not alone, with the standards that you expect from Everton, Ryan.

I’m lucky, I’ve seen Everton, be the best team in the country, and I have seen a few managers with a record as decent or probably better than David Moyes, get sacked because we had higher standards back then, so yes the glass ceiling was created by Bill Kenwright, because he never had the money to take us forward, but it was cemented by David Moyes, who knew which way his bread was buttered, when he was taking those knives to a gunfight.

I have often wondered what, many of our past managers have thought about our so called supporters.
It would make reading on TW much more interesting !!

Billy, was a very good technician though, and he scored some wonderful goals, so when you say that only Leon Osman, was on his wavelength, (debatable, imo) then I would ask, then why did Moyes, sign such a player?

At the time Everton, were a much better team when they played aggressively, (it’s why we could beat the biggest teams at Goodison Pk, but never away from home, “different mentality” again imo) so anyone scouting Billy, should have surely been aware that he wasn’t this type of player and was therefore not really the type of player that Everton, required around this time?

I remember reading that Moyes, hadn’t really watched this player and took advice off someone he knew. I don’t know how true this is. but with Everton, being quite close to the better teams around this time, then the nickname that Billyletdown, was given, told me everything🤷‍♂️

Players are generally attracted by two things - Champions League royalty clubs who have a stranglehold on silverware and money. Grealish was in a different position: needed to get his career back on track and was given an option that didn't uproot him. Very unclear whether we'll keep him next season though.

If you want to qualify for Europe ASAP, then you need to pay fees and wages to get new players in. Exactly what Forest have been doing, for example. Exactly what Villa and Newcastle did before them.

He had a great shot, but often games would pass him by. He was a strange signing. Post Lescott, it was the start of less successful signings coming through for decent money.

He’s a decent manager, but I’m just giving my opinion of how I have seen him over many years.

Anyone who thinks Moyes is a great manager is entitled to their opinion, but anyone who thinks he’s just decent, might only be a so called supporter?

Different times, and whilst I believe that nil satis nisi optimum, should have been taken off our badge years ago, that doesn’t stop me believing the words of the late John Moore’s.

Christine's view is that Moyes has never and will never break through the glass ceiling. It may be a different era, she may live in a different time zone, but there has been nothing in Moyes's career he has achieved to suggest it is as relevant now as it was back then. His style, his approach, how he sets up and how he approaches the big games, the inferiority complex... even at Man Utd.

Eric, the Mickey Mouse Cup. I would suggest we would have had a chance of winning even with our poorest squad if getting a wild card. Any English team that qualifies become the favourites as it's harder to qualify than to win.

Eric, just have a look at how long the bulk of those signings lasted and their value to the team.

Mike, are you that naive to think Grealish is here solely because of the manager? Grealish clearly likes Moyes but we already knew he wanted to stay home with his new baby, his main goal was to make the World Cup, and TFG want a marquee signing, as they did at Roma, so would pay the extravagant loan fee.

We knew this even before he was linked to us. Where else could he have gone? I'm sure he is genuine about the feeling after speaking to the manager but I would suggest any Everton manager who had shown that he really wanted him could have gotten him; otherwise, he would have had to uproot his young family. He has always been a home bird.

Many Everonians were surprised we got him; I wasn't because circumstances favoured us -- and this was before of hearing Jack's thoughts on the matter.

Also, Mike, the majority of your post is wishful thinking. They haven't showed any improvement so far at Roma. This season looks brighter for them but, up until this point, they have taken Roma backwards, not forwards, from a footballing perspective.

City appointed Mancini, Pellegrini and Pep all of whom had never managed in England before their appointment.
Liverpool appointed Beneathus, Klopp and Sloot all of whom had never managed in England before their appointment.
Arsenal appointed Wenger who had never managed in England before their appointment.
United appointed van Gaal, ten Hag and Amorin all of whom had never managed in England before their appointment.
Spurs appointed Jol, Ramos, Villas-Boas all of whom had never managed in England before their appointment (OK not a good list).
Chelsea appointed Mourinho, Hiddink, Ancellotti, Conte, Sarri, Tuchel, and Pep all of whom had never managed in England before their appointment.
Meanwhile Southampton appointed Pochettino, Brentford - Frank, Bournemouth - Iraola, Brighton - Hürlezer, Palace - Glazner, Wolves - Espirito Santo, Sunderland - Le Bris all of whom were totally new to the Premier League and are (at the moment) reasonably successful.

Our non British managers have been Wigan's Martinez, Southampton's Koeman, Watford's Marco Silva, Sh**e's Beneathus and Hollywood's Ancellotti. Our foreign managers have always had Premier League experience. Seemingly safe choices. Perhaps the board needs to lift up their eyes and do a bit of scouting for managers to follow Moyes.

The British list is pretty depressing - Walker, Kendall MkIII, Smith, Lampard, Dyche, Allardyce. I will leave out those who resigned after being failed by the board, Kendall MkII and Royle and, while not reaching the heights demanded by some on here, Moyes.

Does the real blame lie with the board - from Philip Carter all the way through to Fahard Moshiri - from 1992 to 2025?

Our older fan base remembers us competing and being regarded as one of the original Big 4. Where Moyes's profile doesn't fit.

Younger fans are used to lower mid-table mediocrity. Where Moyes thrives.

His lowering of expectations and maybe a dose of reality first time around still weigh heavily at the club.

I am not his greatest fan as I think he puts himself before the club.

First time around, he made himself our highest earner, then walked out on a free to the biggest club in world football at the time. Leaving us without any compensation.

Second time around, I think he has done a fantastic job with the players available. Getting Grealish was a master stroke. He soon fell back into his old ways with the team selection for the cup at Wolves which shows where his priorities are. Stay in the league at all costs and sod the rest.

Will he be here in 18 months? I think our strikers will get him the sack.

I wasn't being critical of Christine because she doesn't go to matches. I've gone whole seasons where I've hardly attended in the past.

I was drawing a parallel between how far she is from what is actually happening at the club -- both geographically and factually.

And yes, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, even if it is the same opinion that gets dusted down and trotted out as often as possible, with little to no variation.

I know Kenwright and Moyes should be consigned to the past but stick your fingers in your ears and 'la, la, la' all you want because Moyes is still here.

You don't want to read my opinion? Fair enough, that's what ToffeeWeb is all about, no problem. At least, it was.

But you're right: fresh views, fresh opinions... go for it!

Thank you and goodnight all. Great memories.

God bless, my time is done.

To all of you who have actually enjoyed my input for the past 20 years, thank you for all the comments, good bad and ugly!

To Michael and Lyndon if your reading, thanks for the brilliant platform ToffeeWeb has been.

To all of the posters too many to mention (where are you, Danny? lol) Tony, Dave, Mike, and so many, many more... you have been friends I have never met.

COYB!

There's no need for you to leave the site just because of a few posts that disagree with you and point out the recursive loop you seem to have gotten into. But if you want to stop playing and take your ball with you, then that's your choice; you're not being asked to do so.

BTW - for the record:

* Bill Kenwright died on 23 October 2023

* Everton have been owned by The Friedkin Group since December 2024

* Moyes has only managed the club since 11 January 2025

* The club's performance since his arrival is circa Top 8

* We are also currently 8th in the league, 5 points off 1st

* Jack Grealish -- arguably the most exciting player to pull on an Everton shirt in 30 years -- has frequently cited Moyes as the reason he came to the club and credited him with his recent performances

Food for thought…?

The club has always played it low risk in managers and signings in the main.

If you've ho hum money, and fishing in that pool, you're not going to break out of the pack as the board are risk averse.

We've bought some dreadful footballers, but in the main most are solid technical players that miss the X factor of high ability or devastating pace.

Perhaps that's just harder to buy. There aren't many signings this summer that I've seen so far that were a) gettable b) ripping it up.

Teams which are bankrolled by Russian oligarchs, teams owned by rich countries like Saudi Arabia, clubs with world wide fanbases with £400M - £500M wage bills will tend to dominate leagues and medium-sized clubs with £160M wage bills.

I don't live in cloud cuckoo land because Everton won a league title 40 years ago.

I don't think Moyes is a ‘great' manager in any way, shape or form.

I think he's generally an above-average competent Premier League manager who previously got Everton into league places like 5th, 6th 7th... League places where we have generally been throughout our history bar a couple of short periods in our history.

Not many have done that before or after him in the last 40 years.

Personally, I'd like a manager like the Bournemouth manager in the next couple of years, when we're a bit more stable.

But let's be honest, a lot of our fans would have wanted him sacked after his first season at Bournemouth.

Unlike Moyes, who is definitely a stayer.

Me? My football knowledge is not great but I find moderation and not getting too involved keeps me coming back for more. Long live TW and kudos to all those who throw their hat in the ring.

FWIW, Christine, I love your posts and the diversity you bring to this mostly male-dominated site and you will sorely be missed and TW will be poorer for your absence.

In investment circles, the same sort of thing gets called 'reckless caution' -- being so "safe" that you inevitably undershoot your objectives.

It's sort of understandable for long periods where we've been skint and with relegation risk hanging over us. But less so for other opportunities which have gone begging.

By the end of Moyes's contract (in 18 months or so) the squad should have been built back up and in good shape. It's an opportunity to look at someone who has the skill set to manage a big club.

This time last year, someone like Kieran McKenna looked very promising but, unless Ipswich pick up soon, he may just join the fairly long list of mediocre managers who looked good briefly because they just didn't bother defending.

Maybe an up-and-coming foreign manager from overseas for the first time in our history then, Phil.

Every single manager we have splits opinion. We're never universally happy with anyone.

Dembele was 26 when they signed him. Not under 25 or under 23.

"I hope he doesn't laugh at me too much as his club like dozens of others are still splitting their sides after pulling Moyes pants down for 12m euro for Thilo Kehrer."

Why? Because he bought a player for a little over 10 million and got 27 games in his only season out of him and then sold him on for about 9.5 million? Is that your idea of a disaster? Remember Gbamin? Or Klassen? Or Bolasie?

"You alluded to the fact he had a 33% success rate with those under 25 with those I mention. His strike rate with those over 25 you would need a calculator to find the decimal points."

Depends what you mean by success. Moyes had his shit signings in the top half of the table 3 years out and 4 and won a trophy with them the 1 season they finished outside the top half. He got a record premier league points total for West Ham in his first season there.

"I hope you weren't a poster who has slagged off our transfer strategy under the Moshiris era. Moyes signings at West Ham make us look like geniuses."

Moyes had West Ham 9th when he left. Moshiri turned a side that had been consistently top half under Moyes and mid-table when Martinez left into a relegation fighting side while spending unheard of amounts of money on players and managers in the process. Genius isn't the word. Well maybe it is depending on your sense of humor.

The reason being just like when Lyndon left the site and we thought when we thought Michael had gone you have a uniquely important function.

Posters like Darren Hinds and Steve Ferns are sorely missed due to their knowledge and informed perspective but without sounding sexist you give a very unique perspective- informative, thoughtful, forthright passionate and are like a glue that binds it all together, a reference point or an example to us all when we misbehave or cross the line.

I flit in and out myself depending on circumstances so it may seem strange coming from me but in this new era where you get posters whose only purpose is to destroy than to add (toffeeeweb trolls) your insights are still as much of a breath fresh air today as no doubt when you started.

Ps Scott the troll comment was in no way being applied to you

Moyes cheaper signings like Soucek and Coufal were excellent for the club during this period and remained mainstays throughout.

When Moyes was given the keys to the castle they regressed with 14th placed and 9th placed finishes.

With serious investment your team should get better. Not only did Moyes side underachieve, they became an older, unvalued, underperforming, imbalanced squad on high wages.

They were backed to break through the glass ceiling with their net spend on a par with Arsenal and Utd the top net spenders in the division that summer.

Good luck, good health, and very best wishes for the future. Brian Labone once said “One Evertonian is worth more than twenty Liverpudlians” I'll say “I'd rather read one of your posts than fifty of some posters on here!”

I sincerely hope to read your comments again in the future.

Here's hoping you take the time to look at the posts supporting your continued presence on the TW site.

Anyone know what has happened to Danny O'Neill?

Thank you Christine, you talk so much sense.

He did do well in many respects at West Ham, with decent finishes and winning the Europa Conference League. And certainly West Ham have declined since he left.

But during his time (and with predecessor Pellegrini), West Ham were trying to spend their way into the big league. The trouble was, he / the club failed to capitalise on the bigger budget. They were unable to transform the club into something with a big club look and feel, despite the spending.

He obviously also helped in the transition of Man Utd from serial winners into steep decline - again, despite a decent kitty.

There's all sorts of counter-arguments and context to all of this, which I expect everyone is pretty familiar with.

But I think the point still stands: Moyes isn't someone you'd want at the helm if you are really going for it - and trying to kick on into the Champions League spots.

For that reason, he will probably be here for another 18 months or so before being replaced. By that stage TFG with help from Moyes should have stabilised the club and the playing staff and be looking upwards.

However, and this is probably where we differ, Moyes is depressingly ideal for our present purposes, transitioning from a very, very weak starting point to a best of the rest type position - without being accompanied by heavy spending (i.e. this summer's 13th highest expenditure). We are in no way "going for it" at the moment. We are just trying to stabilise after being a destitute basket case for many years.

Sadly it is no means a given that Moyes' successor will actually take us further, and build on the sound but boring work Moyes is likely to do over the remainder of his contract.

Alcoltyes ( your term) and Realists are not a good comparison.I think rather than Alcoltyes the term objective arguement , compared to your subjective posts without substantive arguement would be a better comparison.

Thanks Tony could not put it better myself.

Christine I suggest you take the attitude of Bette Milder.' If they can't take a joke, fuck them ' and keep making your very worthwhile and knowledge posts.Posts that I specially seek out on threats.Scott is just another one of these guys with his Subjective arguements who gets personal, because they are unsubstantiated. By the way I thought your article was timely, tactiful and well research.I remember putting a edgy post in, which is unlike me.

I keep thinking you live on the North West area of the South Island or am I getting you mixed up with a Dowager Duchess who went there to get away from her alcoholic son who went through the Estate she struggled to keep, with sheep up to the windows of the Big House, after her father's death in the War.

We disagree... but so what! Don't go and say never again, you will want to blow off steam in the future, don't cut off your nose to spite your face, please.

7th
8th
8th
12th
10th

Our latter demise came when he stopped investing. And those results came with only twice spending over €100M and no net spends over €80M.

Moyes spending of €197M and €145M produced these finishes:

14th
9th

I’m not sure comparing the richest team in France with West Ham is totally fair either

"Grant you miss the point as usual. Of the team that arguably over achieved during Moyes 6th and 7th place finishes only the likes of Zouma and Benrahma were mainstays with the latter only having moments. Zouma for one of the seasons"

Well, as they had the 11th highest net spend for the first 2 seasons of Moyes reign then yes, they certainly were over-achieving by finishing 6th and 7th.

"Moyes cheaper signings like Soucek and Coufal were excellent for the club during this period and remained mainstays throughout."

Wait a minute, I thought Moyes record with players 25 and over was terrible and yet here you mention 2 that were 'excellent for the club' !

"When Moyes was given the keys to the castle they regressed with 14th placed and 9th placed finishes. "

Moyes being given the 'keys to the castle' only amounted to going from 11th highest net spenders to 9th highest net spenders despite your fantasies to the contradictory. They had to play 15 extra games the year they finished 14th, due to competing in, and winning, the UCL.

Given the fact that they went back up to 9th, where they should be based upon their net spend, the final season he was there, and sold their best player Rice the summer before Moyes final season, it is silly to suggest the drop was for any other reason than too many fixtures.

But hey, carry on claiming it was due to more of his silly over-priced, over 25 year old, signings, imbalanced squad and having an average age of 57 among the playing staff, or whatever you think it was.

"They were backed to break through the glass ceiling with their net spend on a par with Arsenal and Utd the top net spenders in the division that summer."

No such backing ever happened. Their net spend for the last two seasons Moyes was there was around 174 million. United and Arsenal had net spends in the 300 plus million category. WH were 9th highest net spenders while the 2 clubs you mention were 2nd and 3rd.

How you can expect to finish higher than 9th, where he left them, while spending the 9th highest amount, I don't know. He did however deliver them a trophy.

Conor #71, I'm just going on what Grealish himself said: "...as soon as I spoke to the manager David Moyes on FaceTime, I knew this was the place I wanted to come." And I don't believe for a moment that he didn't have other good options.

As for Roma, it's a different set of circumstances. They were already finishing Top 6 every season and making finals in Europe when Friedkin bought the club. I'm just pointing out that he certainly hasn't established a precedent for sticking with a manager for a long period of time.

1st. Man City. +£7M
2nd. Arsenal. £162M
3rd Man Utd. £219M
4th Newcastle Utd. £178M
5th Liverpool. £60M
6th Brighton. +£82M
14th West Ham. £175M
17th Everton +£20M

You only need to look at the players highlighted and how they performed or didn't to show how bad the signings were.

You suggest they got back on track yet Moshiri's signings were a disaster. Combined finishing positions of both time periods:

1st. Moshiri. 7th
2nd. Moshiri. 8th
3rd Moshiri. 8th
4th. Moyes. 9th
5th. Moshiri. 10th
6th. Moshiri. 12th
7th. Moyes 14th

Moyes's spending when given backing was a disaster, much worse than that under Moshiri's tenure. If 9th was how well he could do, you need to be erecting a statue outside your home for Moshiri.

Mike, if you believe that then you have to take Jack's words that he only spoke to him the week before. TFG had already by this time reportedly given a package etc which proved true. This would not have happened if the player had not shown his willingness or at the very least openness to come.

West Ham had the 9th highest net spend between 2022-23 and 2023-24, Moyes's last two seasons in charge. I don't know where you get the idea that they had spending on a par with Man Utd or Arsenal.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/einnahmenausgaben/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/0?ids=a&sa=&saison_id=2022&saison_id_bis=2023&nat=&pos=&altersklasse=&w_s=&leihe=&intern=0

Moshiri oversaw record Everton expenditure during his time in charge and yet 7th place in his first full season was as good as it got for him.

I'd say having to sell all your assets just to unsuccessfully conform with the rules only to get a massive points penalty anyway and only stay up the previous season on the final day represents a much worse outcome than finishing off in 9th place having spent the 9th highest amount of net money at the best of times. But apparently you don't agree.

I said he had a large net spend after finishing 7th, that he was backed to break the glass ceiling. I said he large spending in the 2 seasons.

You initially had a problem with me suggesting his signings were poor. I think if you look to their appearances and performances and resultant value, that's obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense.

You took issue with me saying that his lavish spending was worse than ours under Moshiri. It was and I only highlighted Moshiri to prove the point on how bad they were. Even during his time, signings who weren't clear successes like Kean, Onana and Iwobi retained value.

You now once again have moved the goalposts after destroying your own argument regarding Moshiri's signings. We still did better in 3 of those 5 years; you said that was as expected.

All that Scott did was to jar that feeling that the new ToffeeWeb should find its own voice. Mine being one whose memories are filled with both the joy of experiencing success and anger with our subsequent demise. I have absolutely no doubt we will become a force to be reckoned with in years to come, most probably once the Premier League, as we now know it, has gone.

In my many personal indulgences in posting on this site, I tried to paint a picture with my words, of a time and part of Liverpool that only seems to exist in photographs and memories now, just forgotten places. But they added context to history, flavour to our scouse. They are what made us who we are. Proud Blues, don't you ever dare to forget that, ever. The street names still exist, the photos still look familiar, but like me, fading from view.

My goodness though, ToffeeWeb, everyone of you feel like family. I have laughed and cried with all of you, what a fanbase it gave voice to, passionate, articulate, knowledgeable and funny. From every possible point on this planet, it connected us and brought us back home, inspired others who have only gazed and wondered of the moment they would stand in awe, with tears flowing for just being there. No words describe that moment and nothing can ever sully them. One of my life's greatest memories.

To the people who conceived this site, gave platform and voice to us all, Michael and Lyndon, you gave me the courage to keep posting. Along the way, I have found friends I have never met, laughed a lot and learnt a lot too. I have always tried to be respectful in my articles and my comments, forgive me if you ever bore the brunt of a curt response!

It leaves me with unfinished business, for over 200 years my family has lived in and around Vauxhall Road, Scotland Road and the Dock Road. They still do. But I have lived a life half a world away for some 25 years. It's time to go home, sit in an impossibly high stand, and look out over my river. God willing, I hope it happens soon. Till then, Thank you, you have kept this proud Blue 💙 happy.

I'll keep TW as my first go-to of the day... but you are welcome to drop a line Christine.foster49@gmail.com
.
Keep the faith blues. Forever Everton. 💙💙💙

And writing your own.

"I said he had a large net spend after finishing 7th, that he was backed to break the glass ceiling. I said he large spending in the 2 seasons."

I don't know what you're saying in the second sentence. Are you claiming he had 2 seasons where he spent big or only 1? He didn't. He made a profit of 20 odd million in his final summer.

"You initially had a problem with me suggesting his signings were poor. I think if you look to their appearances and performances and resultant value, that's obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense."

Well, on paper they weren't. Scammaca has gone on to score 19 in 44 games at Atalanta. The bloke from PSG you mocked, who I cant remember the name of, has been signed permanently by Monaco having helped them qualify for the Champions League while on loan.

"You took issue with me saying that his lavish spending was worse than ours under Moshiri. It was and I only highlighted Moshiri to prove the point on how bad they were."

You claimed our demise only happened after Moshiri stopped spending yet contradicted your own argument by pointing to our league finishes where we went from 7th down to 12th, at one point, despite unheard of spending.

There was a reason Moshiri stopped spending money and despite all the investment in improving the playing staff (resulting in us going from 7th to 12th) when we resorted to selling our assets to conform with the rules there weren't very many to sell. In fact one was a youth player, Gordon.

Guess what it was.

" Even during his time, signings who weren't clear successes like Kean, Onana and Iwobi retained value."

Tosun, Gomes, Gbamin, Sandro, Sigurdsson, Bolasie, Allan and Klaassen came in for around 200 million quid and left for 12 million plus an undisclosed fee in the case of Allan.

But yeah, we only lost about 10 million quid on Iwobi and we only dropped 5 league places in 4 years before our 'decline' started when Moshiri stopped spending. Before that it was wonderful.

"You now once again have moved the goalposts after destroying your own argument regarding Moshiri's signings."

How have I destroyed my argument?

"We still did better in 3 of those 5 years; you said that was as expected."

Moyes 9th place after bringing in 20 odd million and selling his best player represents the best value for position of the years you've listed.

Our first 8th place finish came off the back of spending the 3rd highest amount of money of any premier league club that season and having finished 7th the year before.

"the Mickey Mouse Cup" a lot of supporters are dissapointed we got knocked out of that against Wolves.

just have a look at how long the bulk of those signings lasted and their value to the team nothing to do with the DoF having a clear out of Moyes players then for personal reasons?

And in Mackenzie's case, didn't Gordon Lee hate that he was a flair player? Although I think he inherited him rather than choosing him?