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Everton or Villa, Mr Brazil?
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Listening to TalkSPORT on the way into work this morning and the question was posed to Alan Brazil ? Who is the bigger club, Everton or Villa?
After much squirming and trying not to answer the question, he said that David Moyes would have a better chance at success at Villa due to the resources he would have available.
I can't deny that Villa have more money than us, but player for player and with a fit squad, we have by far and away better resources. I would hand on heart say that only the diver Young and Milner would challenge to get into our starting XI.
Martin O'Neill has wasted countless millions filling the Villa team with mistakes. Heskey, Petrov, Reo-Cocker, Sidwell and Cuellar are approximately £30 millions worth of evidence.
So, this lead me to think that, if only two of their players would get into our team, how much would a new manager have to spend to bring that squad in line with likes of us and Spurs?
This is why David Moyes would never leave Everton for Villa. It would be a 3-year regression for his career.
The fact that they finished above us last season can be argued, but looking at the form displayed by both clubs from November onwards adds credence to my argument.
I like Alan Brazil; I think he talks a lot of sense... but perhaps he wants to rethink this one?
Cant wait for Saturday ? Come On, Blue Boys!!!!!
Matt Barry, Posted 11/08/2010 at 18:41:11
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Fairly pointless question in truth. MON is an OK manager to a point. But he had time and money at Villa and didn't best use it. On occasions they looked dynamic, but more often they were one dimensional, very long ball (a la Leicester) and overrated. MON bristled when Wenger said basically the same last season, but it's true.
An argument about who's bigger means sod all. Performances, points & prizes are all that matters. I confidently expect Everton to prove that to Villa (and others) this season.
An argument about who's bigger means sod all. Performances, points & prizes are all that matters. I confidently expect Everton to prove that to Villa (and others) this season.
Curtis Davies says a fair bit about O'Neill and it reflects Villa's problem when he was there. He picked his favourites and very rarely changed his team (Moyes has some too) but that is why Villa invariably started to fall near the end due to his insistence in using the same players game in game out, fatigue certainly kicks in towards the end of the season but it seemed that O'Neill didn't trust other players to step up to the plate.
All in all I'd say we were very similar in size - if not the pretty much exactly the same.
Turnover reported for us in 2009 was £76m and £75.6m for them.
Historically both founder members of football league, share most played fixture, both got a European trophy, similar domestic trophies, two famous classic grounds, similar fanbase.
Brazil is wrong - if Moyes was to go to Villa he would essentially be going back to square one to be asked to do the job he's done for Everton for Villa with probably the same resources.
Turnover reported for us in 2009 was £76m and £75.6m for them.
Historically both founder members of football league, share most played fixture, both got a European trophy, similar domestic trophies, two famous classic grounds, similar fanbase.
Brazil is wrong - if Moyes was to go to Villa he would essentially be going back to square one to be asked to do the job he's done for Everton for Villa with probably the same resources.
Villa bigger club than Everton!
someone needs their bumps feeling.
Nowhere near
someone needs their bumps feeling.
Nowhere near
On last seasons results you could argue that they are, seeing as they finished above us
Villa have reached the end of their spending power and now have to sell to firstly reduce a debt where the interest will negate any funds for transfer and secondly replace under performing players from the fringe squad.
With Everton, the feeling is we have not peaked, we have the team to go to the next level and more importantly it is with minor changes i.e the sale of Yakubu to fund Donovan is all that is required with nothing for a couple of years at least.
To be fair to Villa they are a club like us and i'd be happy with them alongside us in a top 4 rather than the get rich quick mob. It's a proper club but O'Neill got too big headed and thought he could run a club to success and bankrupcy like Redknapp did at Portsmouth. I've always had a soft(ish) spot for Villa because of their similarities with us. A big club with a proud history of silverware who were founder members of the Football League, as Mike mentions above. Both of us have fallen on difficult times over the last 20 years, not being able to keep up with the PL nouveau riche. They had a chairman who clung on to power for many years looking for the right investor (ring any bells?). The difference is that they were taken over by a foreign investor, who is now pulling in the reins due to the current worldwide financial climate.
Now that MON has gone, the new manager will be working under financial constraints. So there really is no difference between them and us in terms of 'pulling power'.
2 things though have bugged me about them in recent years.
1) their supporters' personal abuse of Lescott, and
2) Ashley Young's diving.
They are the biggest club in the Midlands.
But aren't we the 'PRIDE OF MERSEYSIDE?'
COYB
Now that MON has gone, the new manager will be working under financial constraints. So there really is no difference between them and us in terms of 'pulling power'.
2 things though have bugged me about them in recent years.
1) their supporters' personal abuse of Lescott, and
2) Ashley Young's diving.
They are the biggest club in the Midlands.
But aren't we the 'PRIDE OF MERSEYSIDE?'
COYB
Everton have never spent time in the Third Division!
Not too surprised by that ? Villa have a larger stadium, are the biggest club in a bigger city than Liverpool, pay larger wages, and have performed at a level similar to us in recent years. Their history is not too bad either?
Not surprised an outsider might consider them a bigger club. I still don?t like the buggers though ? and am delighted they're having a bad time of it lately!
Not surprised an outsider might consider them a bigger club. I still don?t like the buggers though ? and am delighted they're having a bad time of it lately!
Which club have been 9 times Champions of the country? End of debate.
There is no doubt that Moyes would have more money at Villa. And if you compare their team with ours, they have a better depth of quality in their squad, yet we probably just pip them on starting eleven.
There is therefore, in my opinion, not a cigarette paper currently between the two teams... and, as Moyes would have more money avaliable at Villa, then Alan Brazil is probably spot on.
However, luckily for us, Moyes says he's stayin'... although, having said that, in the interview yesterday he simply said he was here for this season ? he didn't mention his contract or that he'd be here for a long time ? simply, the season. (Possibly reading into his literal words too much...)
There is therefore, in my opinion, not a cigarette paper currently between the two teams... and, as Moyes would have more money avaliable at Villa, then Alan Brazil is probably spot on.
However, luckily for us, Moyes says he's stayin'... although, having said that, in the interview yesterday he simply said he was here for this season ? he didn't mention his contract or that he'd be here for a long time ? simply, the season. (Possibly reading into his literal words too much...)
This my club is bigger than your club is a bit kopite-ish don't you think?
Ray - to be fair Villa had won the top flight championship 7 times (albeit only once in the modern era), the FA Cup 7 times, the League Cup 5 times (something we've never done), have a European Cup and have been Premier League runners-up.... so to be fair if I was a Villa fan I'd think they probably had the nod on us in the trophy cabinet stakes.
Adam - Villa do have a larger stadium but only by 2,500 (40k v 42.5k) so I'd put them pretty much side by side.
Ciarán - I'm with you on the cigarette paper analogy, I think it's that close. I dont think Moyes would have more money there now though, this is illustrated by whats happened at Villa Park this week. Again I think we're in exactly the same boat.
As for Moyes "I'm here for this season" answer I picked up on that too thinking "Oh yeah...?"
I think Moyes could be seeing this year as the big one, the one after which he can put his cards on the table and say "there you go, come and get me to Man Utd."
Adam - Villa do have a larger stadium but only by 2,500 (40k v 42.5k) so I'd put them pretty much side by side.
Ciarán - I'm with you on the cigarette paper analogy, I think it's that close. I dont think Moyes would have more money there now though, this is illustrated by whats happened at Villa Park this week. Again I think we're in exactly the same boat.
As for Moyes "I'm here for this season" answer I picked up on that too thinking "Oh yeah...?"
I think Moyes could be seeing this year as the big one, the one after which he can put his cards on the table and say "there you go, come and get me to Man Utd."
The fact is it's been a boring summer for the papers and radio shows. They've done the 'England are shit' debate to death and there's been nothing else for them to talk about except making up shit rumours. This O'Neill resignation has suddenly given them some material and they'll milk it for everything they can. Saying something controversial will get people listening or reading.
Everyone knows how loyal Moyes is and the fact he's spent all summer getting his top players to sign new contracts, so why would he leave? Sparking some controversy about who's bigger or saying Moyes would do better at Villa gets peoples' attention so they listen to their shite radio show where people like Ray Houghton or Stan Collymore get an opinion.
I wouldn't spend too much time worrying whether we're bigger than Villa or not. For the past 2 decades we've been very even.
Everyone knows how loyal Moyes is and the fact he's spent all summer getting his top players to sign new contracts, so why would he leave? Sparking some controversy about who's bigger or saying Moyes would do better at Villa gets peoples' attention so they listen to their shite radio show where people like Ray Houghton or Stan Collymore get an opinion.
I wouldn't spend too much time worrying whether we're bigger than Villa or not. For the past 2 decades we've been very even.
I think both us and Villa are on an even footing and i also think we both should be aspiring to achieve more and match the club's above us.
Ciarán - I'm with you on the cigarette paper analogy, I think it's that close. I dont think Moyes would have more money there now though, this is illustrated by whats happened at Villa Park this week. Again I think we're in exactly the same boat.
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Well I suppose I'm guessing to an extent..we all are guessing regarding O'Neill's reasons at the moment...
But I think whoever comes in will be given some money....Moyes has none.
---------------------------
Well I suppose I'm guessing to an extent..we all are guessing regarding O'Neill's reasons at the moment...
But I think whoever comes in will be given some money....Moyes has none.
Ciaran - they'll get money cos of the sales they're making - but not all of it, and that seems to be one of the key reasons O Neill went. So in effect, whoever goes there might have £20m to spend but won't have Milner and prob Young. Moyes would have money if he sold Arteta and Jagielka - doesn't mean we want that to happen though. As for anyone who thinks the two clubs are evenly matched at the moment (on the field), didn't we almost catch them last season after having something like a 15 point deficit at Christmas. We're a far better side than them, they finished above us last season purely down to 09 form, which is ancient in football terms.
As for who's the bigger club, that's a debate I'll stay out of, partly due to how pointless it is.
As for who's the bigger club, that's a debate I'll stay out of, partly due to how pointless it is.
Thank goodness! I've been missing people referring to Young's diving! It drives me insane when the commentators justify it - like Gerrard's dives and Terry going through players - and I think they do it just because he plays for England now.
The fact that Villa finished above us last year shouldn't come into the equation, it happened because O'Neil was able buy players he should never have been able to in order to beat us.
I agree with the one dimensional comments, O'Neil's tactics are predictable, and they run in this order in games....
1st plan - Hope my talented wide men do something to get a goal so I don't need to think
2nd plan - Hope Petrov or wide men can 'engineer' (i.e. dive!) a sert pieces for our defenders
3rd plan - Punt up the park then hope Agbonlahor can use his pace or Carew his height and strength to beat their defender and score a goal
....the 2nd Plan is how it seemed Larsson scored a majority of his goals in one of Celtic's league winning seasons (it's an insult to Larsson's abilities but it's true) and is why Martin Laursen scored 10 goals in 2 seasons
and the fact that punt up the park is his 3rd tactic is why Agbonlahor to have barren scoring spells; they're the times when the wide men are on form so he has to resort to using plan 2 and then 3
The fact that Villa finished above us last year shouldn't come into the equation, it happened because O'Neil was able buy players he should never have been able to in order to beat us.
I agree with the one dimensional comments, O'Neil's tactics are predictable, and they run in this order in games....
1st plan - Hope my talented wide men do something to get a goal so I don't need to think
2nd plan - Hope Petrov or wide men can 'engineer' (i.e. dive!) a sert pieces for our defenders
3rd plan - Punt up the park then hope Agbonlahor can use his pace or Carew his height and strength to beat their defender and score a goal
....the 2nd Plan is how it seemed Larsson scored a majority of his goals in one of Celtic's league winning seasons (it's an insult to Larsson's abilities but it's true) and is why Martin Laursen scored 10 goals in 2 seasons
and the fact that punt up the park is his 3rd tactic is why Agbonlahor to have barren scoring spells; they're the times when the wide men are on form so he has to resort to using plan 2 and then 3
They are both as similar as Premier League clubs can be to be honest. Both big clubs with very similar histories.
But I wouldn't agree Villa has more money than us now. It seems Villa need to sell to get money. Everton have just chosen not to, where we have a lot of players who are sellable. Basically Villa have chosen to sell Milner when we haven't decided to sell Arteta. That sums it up to me.
But I wouldn't agree Villa has more money than us now. It seems Villa need to sell to get money. Everton have just chosen not to, where we have a lot of players who are sellable. Basically Villa have chosen to sell Milner when we haven't decided to sell Arteta. That sums it up to me.
Villa haven't chosen to sell Milner,the player has been lured by City and so Villa are doing exactly what we did to City last year and are trying to squeeze as much out of them for a player who isn't worth the ridiculous amounts being talked about. We could well be in this situation again next close season if we've finished out of the european places and Rodwell has a good year for us and England, when the big boys come waving £30 million at Everton what do you think will happen? I'm pretty sure Villa have more money than us by nature of the fact of the financial status our owner compared to theirs. Lerner will give transfer funds to whoever comes in to replace O'Neill.
Well it seems obvious to me that we have consistently finished above Villa until this season really so I personally think that both clubs are the same size really. We drew twice the seasonw ith Villa hwich suggests again what I said that we're pretty much even. They'd be no benefit for him to move to Villa after contructing a squad over a number of years to go to a club that has players on capable of playing O Neils way which is just playing on the break and tehy'd be without their 2 best players Young and Milner anyway.
Interesting that a lot of us see Villa as similar clubs, squads etc. But in the top 7 thread very few mention them and many tip us for 4th or better and Villa to finish nowhere.
To say only a couple of players of thiers would get in our side is nonsense. Like us they have some very, very good footballers especially on the wings and up front, where I think we are lacking a bit.
To say only a couple of players of thiers would get in our side is nonsense. Like us they have some very, very good footballers especially on the wings and up front, where I think we are lacking a bit.
It's rather amazing how our fans feel able to criticise Route One football... considering up until last December it was the only thing we knew how to do!
Suddenly we're Arsenal, and can look down our noses at other clubs...
Suddenly we're Arsenal, and can look down our noses at other clubs...
That doesn't really make sense Antony, because the whole issue was that MON wanted to spend and Lerner wouldn't let him. Villa are in the same situation as us in that they need to sell first before they can buy. Why do you think they allowed the sale of Milner, and possibly Ashley Young? Difference is Moyes is a hell of a lot better with the transfer budget and Kenwright is better with controlling their money. Lerner should never have let O'Neill have that much money to spend in the first place.
I don't take heed of Brazil, just another ex-player talking shite.
What transfer budget do Everton have, Ben? The best part of nothing is what Kenwright has allowed to be spent. That's not controlling money ? that's just being skint. Anybody could manage a budget like that. Where is the money going to come from next year besides selling Rodwell? Villa are allowing the sale of Milner for precisely the same reason we did with Lescott, stupidly over-the-odds prices for players who probably only worth half their transfer fees.
Ciarán/Mike,
I think that you are maybe reading too much into DM's "this season" comment........................(hopefully).
I think Jags made a similar "this season" comment today. It's just par for the course.
I think that you are maybe reading too much into DM's "this season" comment........................(hopefully).
I think Jags made a similar "this season" comment today. It's just par for the course.
Ciarán,
I don't think we're criticizing Route One football (that would be like writing in the comments below an article about a murderer "murdering is not a very nice thing to do") because - let face it - the number of threads when we've ripped on our team due to long-ball stuff on here is ridiculous (I had to snigger, I just looked up "long ball" on this site search and the first pages first and last results were about Unsworth and Hibbert, now that's 2 other well covered topics on here too! :) ).
All the criticizing I can see in this current article is about O'Neil and the fact that he uses the same basic tactics all the time. Yes we've used long ball but then Moyes has also shown that he has plenty more tactical nonce in his locker than O'Neil that's for sure (it was Moyes's tactics that everyone nicked for how to compete with Chelsea)
I don't think we're criticizing Route One football (that would be like writing in the comments below an article about a murderer "murdering is not a very nice thing to do") because - let face it - the number of threads when we've ripped on our team due to long-ball stuff on here is ridiculous (I had to snigger, I just looked up "long ball" on this site search and the first pages first and last results were about Unsworth and Hibbert, now that's 2 other well covered topics on here too! :) ).
All the criticizing I can see in this current article is about O'Neil and the fact that he uses the same basic tactics all the time. Yes we've used long ball but then Moyes has also shown that he has plenty more tactical nonce in his locker than O'Neil that's for sure (it was Moyes's tactics that everyone nicked for how to compete with Chelsea)
Slightly different option for Learner, if he likes Moyes and what hes done at Everton, why not sell his stake in Villa and come and invest in us?
Dave W - why would you want someone who's obviously decided (correctly) that making further investment into football is a mug's game?
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1 Posted 11/08/2010 at 21:17:32
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So I can't really see how he would be in a better position to win things at Villa.