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Where does Howard rate?
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Short and sweet: where in terms of Premier League goalkeepers do you rate Tim Howard?
For me, there are at least 13 keepers in the Prem who are all better than Howard. Time and again, he makes poor decisions, is painfully slow to get off his line, and does not command his area well at all.
To his credit, he does occasionally make world class saves where I think "How on earth did he get that?" ... but, for me, the fundamentals are much more improtant than eye-catching saves.
If Mucha is genuinely here to challenge rather than play second fiddle, I hope he gets his chance sooner rather than later.
Stephen Kenny, Posted 14/08/2010 at 23:26:19
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If fellow World Cup goalkeeper Jan Mucha is really here as "competition" for Howard, then I wonder under what other circumstances than such a horrendous match-losing error would Moyes deem it appropriate to demote his American star to the bench?
The thought struck me that, if he really was serious about this, then Howard should have by rights been replaced at half-time. Far too Draconian, of course... but how else is this "pressure" and "competition" to be applied? Perhaps as a result of totting up otherwise meaningless 'three and in' routines during training???
I'm being facetious, but to make the point here: Howard should have been replaced sooner rather than later for making such an error. I think it should have been during the game to really make the point that such errors are totally unacceptable.
At a minimum, Howard should be dropped to the bench for Wolves game, and Mucha given his Everton debut. But will that happen? I very much doubt it. In which case, I will ask "What is the point of having Mucha here?" It is only as a stand-in if Howard gets injured... Which would be completely contrary to what Moyes told us when he bought Mucha onboard.
'Calamity' James was a top-class goalkeeper who's concentration could wander. However, the fact that he plays for Bristol City in The Championship means that as Premier League goalkeepers go, he isn't one.
As for the Premier League's goalkeepers...
Arsenal, no, Howard is better than Almunia.
Aston Villa, Friedel is better. 1
Birmingham, Ben Foster hasn't done enough to show he's better than Howard, so no.
Blackburn, I'd agree that Robinson is better, and should have been in England's World Cup Squad. 2
Blackpool, Gilks, no.
Bolton, Jaaskelainen, until last season I would have said he was better, given today's error he probably still edges it. 3
Chelsea, Cech, yes. 4
Fulham, Schwarzer, yes. 5
Liverpool, Reina, hate to say it, but yes. 6
Man City. Given and Hart are both better, 7 & 8.
Man Utd, Van der Sar, doesn't seem to be fading with age and stays reliable, yes. 9
Newcastle, Harper, no.
Stoke, Sorensen, no.
Sunderland, Mignolet played today, don't know who he is, so I'm saying no. First choice is Gordon, I know he cost £9M, but I still think no.
Tottenham, Gomes, makes world class saves (which Howard doesn't by the way) but can look very shaky and I've never really rated him, but his form over most of last season puts him ahead of Howard in my eyes, so yes. 10
West Brom, Scott Carson, England's second worst ever goalkeeper (after Richard Wright), no.
West Ham, Rob Green, probably England's third worst ever goalkeeper, no.
Wigan, Kirkland, if you think Howard was bad today... no.
Wolves, Hahnemann, not bad, but not as good as Howard, no.
That makes 10 goalkeepers better than Howard in the league, one huge error doesn't make him a liability, but neither is he World Class or anything special. He's decent, usually reliable, and there are better guys out there, but with no money to buy them, why moan about it? I would like to see Mucha given a chance to really make the point that Howard can't take anything for granted, but it's not Moyes's style so don't expect it vs Wolves, although I would be surprised if he doesn't get to face Huddersfield.
I think Turner looked better; I wasn't too keen on Mucha's performance in the World Cup, but I'll reserve my judgement.
A great keeper might make all the difference between a good team and great team.
Turner looked superb at Wednesday and I have a mate who supports them who agrees with that; so what did the signing of Mucha say to him? Same goes for Ruddy. Nash? What was that about?
Look at the heritage of British goalkeepers: Scott, Hodgkinson, Springett, Banks, Jennings, SOUTHALL, Martin, Clements, Shilton and the Arsenal guy with the ponytail. It is a position which, unlike any other, has been devalued. Tim Howard is an average goalkeeper among a league of avarage goalkeepers. He will save more points than he loses. Give him a break.
So I think TH has been given (no pun intended Shay) a 'yellow card'. As Andy says, it would be too harsh to drop him after one clanger, especially as he and a few others were just back from a long trip abroad.
Really top 'keepers are hard to come by these days.
Although Shay Given is apparently available....
However I don't think he is of the standard we need. Great goalkeepers save you vital points over the course of the season and I'm afraid Howard is already on -3.
Its not the first time and it wont be the last he drops a clanger. Sadly after watching Mucha in the world cup I don't think he would be any better though!
Howard is simply average. Hes no Richard Wright but then he's no Big nev or Nigel eiher!
Criminal mistake a schoolboy should know better than to make.
For me, it's not so much that he makes bad decisions; it's more that he fails to make any decisions, especially at pressure points such as corners.
Maybe in a parallel universe he's good enough. In the one I'm inhabiting, he isn't.
Give Mucha a chance against Huddersfield. Moyes likes Howard because of his spirit and international status but it's time to try someone else to see if they can control the penalty area to more effect.
I recall watching Big Nev in the 800s from the Gwladys, thinking he was bored for most of a gam... then, come the last minute, he would pull off a great save for us to win the game. Or the opponents' last-minute corner would come over, and he would rise like a salmon to grab the ball, leaving a trail of destruction behind him. All our players knew this and had the confidence to let him get on with it.
And that's the point. DM and the players will know if they are starting to lose confidence in TH. if they are, it's time for a change.
I only watched the extended highlights on Sky, but none of the mids were busting a gut to get into the box or running beyond the strolling Saha.
Do we need a better keeper? probably, but a keeper is way down the 'must buy' list
The famous five tarting about in the middle were utter shite yesterday and lucky for them Tim goosed and, for them, it seems all is forgiven ?Tim will take the blame.
We have more issues than just the GK:
(1) We need a striker, not sure what the issue is with the Yak but my guess is that he is off to pastures new;
(2) We are in desperate need for someone out on the right, and this needs to happen pronto, because Moyes may well stick with Osman and that for me is THE major issue.
So back to the original question: Yep, Tim fucked up... but please look at the mob in front of him, especially the oh so mighty famous five in the middle!
Tim does a good job between the sticks, in the first half he seemed to be making some kind of save every other minute, mainly because we could not keep the ball or, worse still, were giving the ball away ? Pienaar in particular. Hey, that's a good idea... let's ridicule Pienaar now!
Tim Howard is a top keeper and yesterday's clanger was totally out of character for him. Anyone who thinks the likes of Schwarzer or even Friedel are better than him though... you need to watch more football. Friedel is a great shot-stopper... but he is welded to his line, that isn't the mark of a top goalkeeper. Schwarzer, well... just laughable. I'd love him to sign for Arsenal then people will finally see just how bad he is.
As for rating Turner over him... on what basis? Maybe the Man Utd game where his horrible mistake cost us the game. But I agree with Mike (#22): Howard's mistake glossed over the inept showing from what some posters on this site believe is the best midfield in the league. As I said in that thread, its no good us talking... it its time they started proving it.
A great keeper can earn you a lot of points, look at Schmeichel and Seaman who both earned Man U and Arsenal a lot of points, the latter having never truly been replaced by another quality keeper. Van der Sar doesn't seem to age and has helped Man U to a lot of points, similarly Jaaskalainen has probably helped a piss poor Bolton stay up a few times. Hart is undoubtedly a good keeper, as his keeping of Man City in a one-sided game yesterday shows... but he too is prone to errors. Given is a decent keeper, as are Reina and Cech, even if Cech has never been as fearless since his head injury.
To me, there's no truly outstanding keepers out there at the moment ? just good ones... and all are prone to off-days.
If we're to only see Mucha playing against Huddersfield et al,then this is not good for the goalkeeping department. I submitted an article last season stating that Tim needs proper competition, as he's increasingly becoming a liabilty, and not the paragon of reliability a potential top side desperately craves.
Looking through the squad lists for this season, and based soley on #1's for thier clubs (therefore can't include Shay Given at this stage, even though he's a bit of a favorite of mine) i'd have him ranked 10th (11th if Given moves on).
Who do i have ahead of him? In no particular order: Freidel, Jaaskelainen, Cech, Schwarzer, Reina, Hart, Van Der Sar, Sorensen & Gomes. Rate Craing Gordon, too (if he gets his body right).
Essentially, we are expecting to be top 6 at a minimum, but are trying to get there with a mid table keeper. He's not a bad keeper by any means, our Tim. And at his peak he's truly world class. He's just not a consistant performer. Think a mid 90's David James, perhaps?
Usually all the teams mentioned are playing around the same times as us, so I assume you make a point of wathcing every prem game in full? Otherwise there is only highlights to judge from, assuming they don't go to aways, which in the majority I do and you probably do too as you have gone to the trouble of setting your own EFC site up, and it's much easier to judge a keeper that way. It's not disloyal to say that some keepers are better than TH when, to me and the majority on this thread, that is clearly true! I think the opposite is true, He is a good shotstopper but a poor all-rounder.
For the record, here are the keepers I believe to be better than TH:
Cech
Friedel
Robinson
Foster
Gordon
Schwarzer
Jaaskelienen
Hart
Given
Reina
VD Sar
Kuschak
Green
Usually all the teams mentioned are playing around the same times as us, so I assume you make a point of wathcing every prem game in full? Otherwise there is only highlights to judge from, assuming they dont go to aways, which in the majority I do and you probably do too as you have gone to the trouble of setting your own EFC site up, and it's much easier to judge a keeper that way . It's not disloyal to say that some keeper's are better than TH when to me and the majority on this thread that is clearly true! I think the opposite is true, He is a good shotstopper but a poor all rounder.
For the record here are the keeper's I believe to be better than TH.
Cech
Friedel
Robinson
Foster
Gordon
Schwarzer
Jaaskelienen
Hart
Given
Reina
VD Sar
Kuschak
Green
Howard annoys the Hell out of me, as he won't leave his line but some of the comments on here are simply ridiculous.
I have said previously that he is probably our number one and I still think that but I have been disappointed that Turner hasn't been given more playing time in the first team because I've always thought he looks good and if he had have done then by now he would be competing for that place. Turner looked good in pre-season and seems to have elastic arms. I hope the lad does well at Coventry and shows Moyes that he should be in contention for the first team but why it would have taken this long I don't know.
The only problem I can see is his nerves as he does tend to bottle it particularly on balls in the air which is quite surprising when you consider his background was in Basketball.
There are NOT that many better keepers in the Prem right now and you have to remember the Van der Saars and Peter Cechs of this world built their reputation playing behind some of the best defenders in the world.
Having said all that the fact that he panics under pressure undoubtedly unsettles the defenders too but having watched Mucha in a number of games in the WC I dont think he's a patch on Howard and Turner is still learning his trade before being exposed to the Prem.
Yesterday's blunder does not make him a bad keeper - it makes him a careless, complacent one - who should have gathered the ball into his chest instead of doing a one-handed skip and a jump. That he can learn and eradicate.
As for some of the "better" keepers suggested on here, well I've been brought up to respect other people's opinions, but Green, Carson, Jaaskaleinen etc, make we want to laugh. The latter is a brilliant shot stopper (second to none) but holds absolutely nothing. A while back someone actually suggested Myhill, for God's sake.
Howrd's not a Southall, a West or a Martyn (in his prime) but a bad keeper, despite his weaknesses, he certainly is not! I would rate him the 4th best EFC keeper that I've seen in my near 50 years following the club.
See every keeper has a bad day.
I agree with your comments re Howard, he's probably the best after Nev, Martyn and West, in that order. And I saw them all play as you did. Howard's not great but he's better than most in the Prem.
Cech, Friedel, Robinson, Foster, Gordon, Schwarzer, Jaaskelienen, Hart, Given, Reina, Van der Sar, Kuschak, Green have all been mentioned by someone on here as being better. You're havin' a laff.
Cech, at his best (he bottles it now), Reina, and a young Van Der Saar or Jaaskelienen may be better but Friedel, Gordon and Foster, ffs... please, don't talk crap. Hart, in time, may prove to be a great goalie, but he's still too young and inexperienced right now.
Howard is the exact opposite of that in goalkeeping terms. James could look world class, do amazing things, great saves, imposing himself on the high ball and take crosses well at their apex, then drop a massive clanger to lose the game. Howard does the basics well and rarely makes mistakes, but neither does he do anything special or take command the way a top goalkeeper does, and shots go past him that he should save. Howard's not brilliant and he has his faults, but this one huge clanger seems to have blinded people or affected their memories quite badly.
It's Abu Hamza.... and... who is this guy???
"Tim Howard is already -3 (cost us 3 points)" but we didn't score did we? How many games are we going to win without scoring? So TH is -1. Let's revisit this next May.
Finally I don't agree with the logic that if we are a top 6 team then we need a top 6 goalkeeper. If we are a top 6 team we need to have a top 6 team. Everyone puts in their shifts, everyone will carry the load, and everyone will make mistakes.
He can't really be any worse than Howard.
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1 Posted 15/08/2010 at 00:28:30
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Remember Kuyt in the derby, he's a liability... and Brad Friedel's a better keeper; D James, etc etc...