David Moyes, Everton and Identity - Why it Matters

Fuck it, lets go for 7 wins. If we get 4 or 5 we're back in Europe.

6 or 7 were in the CL.

Now's a very handy time for the team to appear to be clicking into gear when others around us are flagging.

But Moyes has maintained and enhanced that culture. His oft-aggravating style cannot for me obscure the passion, work rate and commitment his teams usually display on the pitch. (Note the word "usually" since they have had some days where they drifted.) Nobody has seen a single Everton player, let alone a side, display even once this season the downcast, slouching mien seen recently in Spurs. Moyes wouldn't have that for a second.

It builds spirit among that group but the flip side is we carry out of form players as he's reluctant to trust others especially youngsters.

He'd rather stick with jobbers giving max effort than gamble on someone with flair who may or may not put in as good as a shift. Work rate is expected but you need quality too.

Think Aznou needs more minutes? Moyes has seen so much more of him than anyone. Think he's dour with his substitutions? Depends on the options available etc.

Moyes will play quality football when the players are available to him to do that. Stop thinking 'potential' means actual ability because Moyes knows so much more than all of us, it's frankly disrespectful to keep questioning him so aggressively.

Moyes Out! (joking, kinda)

With seven games to go then he could qualify for the champions league and achieve something remarkable but even just qualifying for the lowest European competition, would be a fantastic achievement.

I was arguing with someone today, they were telling me they really like Moyes, and whilst I could understand his reasoning, I'm sure I gave him a little bit of food for thought, when I gave him my opinion about where I thought he could improve, and help give us back an identity that we all crave.

No more evident than that Chelsea game, and to an extent the Arsenal game. Where this "Team" out performed its individual parts against sides that should, if playing as a team, have had the ability to beat us easily if their market values were an indication of how a team should perform.

It's not though, is it?

That's where Moyes has achieved a lot: he's brought players together, building a spirit and work ethic that the players can see working with results. I'd say that's the hallmark of a good manager.

Some want instant success, gamble for the win, "take the shackles off"... I honestly think we'd have lost many more points.

Our strength is our ability to come together, to work together, as a team, defend as a team, and, when we go foward, we can hurt teams. The players now look like they are relishing that side of the game, because it's brought results.

I watched a podcast with Tim Howard, Donovan & McBride on, all saying how great Moyes was to play for, how much they loved it, he gets more out of players.

That may be what Jarrad says -- getting Everton, the identity, the club and values. It may not have worked at other clubs, they might not appreciate the same things blues do, some still don't appreciate what he's bringing.

Dewsbury-Hall was the only new signing in the 11 against Chelsea. To me that shows he's brought more out of players and out of the team and, as Roy Keane would say, "That's his job."

After reading what Philip said, I was just giving my opinion about why I think Moyes's teams often finish the season strongly, because this is something I think we grew accustomed to during his last stint whilst in charge of Everton.

No mention of any other manager, and it didn't take long for someone to just jump on the defensive bandwagon and start deflecting away from the jist of this thread, which is about Everton reclaiming an identity.

Like he did.

Qualify for Europe and he will have to prove he can fight on both domestic and European fronts.

But Moyes did get West Ham to a Europa semi-final then won the Europa Conference the season after. He does have recent, proven skin in the European game.

And he'll get better backing from TFG than he did at West Ham. Europa League qualification feels like a good fit for us atm.

He started doing well in Europe for West Ham, but I'm not sure his team finished as strongly in the premier league, when this happened?

My theory is that David likes or has only ever been used to working with a small squad, and I don't think any manager in the world could be effective in all competitions, unless he has a strong enough squad?

I knew my initial post would draw criticism, but it is also quite possible that I was praising Moyes. It is a very long time since Everton, actually had an identity, because we haven't been a genuinely competitive football club, even though I wrote that I hope this is something David can change.

Talking fact is now a criticism, David? No wonder we have been in the doldrums for so long.

I just think next season, European football or not, we all will have a larger period to judge his second spell. He may have learned lessons from West Ham's European campaign, he may just not be able to get the same results from a larger squad that we would inevitably need to challenge on more than 1 front.

We will see, and that's why I think mid-season next year, we will have a better idea of the trajectory we will be on under Moyes.

The players are up for it, he's just got to give them license to play similar to the Chelsea game.

It's in your hands, gaffer.

I know what he's capable of, the pros and cons have already been done to death, but I believe that, if he is to become a really successful Everton manager, then this is the biggest area in which he has got to improve.

We all want to see Everton being successful and regaining our proper identity again; this is something we will only achieve by becoming competitive in the cups.

Nothing more to say -- it's boring, it's repetitive because, on the subject of Moyes, I think we have all said everything that we need to say, unless you are one of those people who just likes arguing for argument's sake. Goodnight!

I'm a critic of Moyes, if he gets us to Europe on his first full season he will deserve all the credit due.

I'd say, as great as a European tour or deep runs in cups would be, I'm more interested in year on year improvement in the league. Consistently improving, enabling more investment in the squad, being more attractive to better players, being able to pay better wages, which I personally think will be more beneficial to Everton regaining our identity as a true top club of English football, rather than an FA cup, a run in Europe or a three handled trophy.

All that said, and avoiding the point about young players (and why buy them if your manager won't play them, given we have scarce resources) I believe 1) Moyes has been the right man for the job so far and 2) he out performed during his first spell, at least in terms of league position relative to financial strength. I said when he left, we will do well to maintain consistently 6/7/8 in the league (occasionally higher or lower) and so it proved.

I know some will disagree with the above but to me, that is clear and apparent. The question is, where we go from here. Can we find a real identity that would get good players (maybe the 'almost the best) signing for us? Will we ever reach a point where there are good players saying 'I want to play for Everton'? Will our owners be willing to spend what is needed to elevate us? And is Moyes the man to exploit that?

The article mentions Everton’s “identity” 9 times by my count, but makes no effort to define what it is.

If it is defined by “the way we do things around here’, then for our identity has been about poor professionalism, low standards, badly run operations and disappointing outcomes for over 35 years.

A clear identity and culture comes from success and winning trophies - Shankley, Paisley and Klopp at Liverpool, Catterick and early Howard Kendall here, Busby and Ferguson at Man U, Guardiola at Man City, and Mourinho at Chelsea.

Hard to build and even harder to maintain. The right leadership is fundamental to building a winning culture.

I feel today we are still a long way from having a meaningful identity as a club, and we rely on memories to sustain us.

For TFG, the only identity that probably matters is the state of our P&L at any given point in time. If that wasn’t the case, Friedkin would have spent time in the city and at the club.

If Moyes gets Everton into Europe I will be one of the first to offer my congratulations on TW. But that doesn’t mean I think he will suddenly produce quality, attractive, football. No matter what players he is able to sign in the summer.

You have freely expressed your opinion on Moyes, everyone is allowed to do the same

The year Alec Ferguson left, the premier league quality was at an all time low. Manutd team was, apart from van persie, shite but it showed how good Fergie was at getting the best out of players.i like it to when Leicester won the league

Moyes is now showing this more than Ferguson yet still you criticise.

Why do you know better John? What's your experience of premier league management? Or any management for that matter?

So no fan can comment on the manager of their club? As they don’t know as much about football as the manager?!

Really daft post.

Most teams in the EPL, are full of seasoned and experienced footballers, but how would Moyes do if he signed a load of experienced players?

Could he keep Jack Grealish happy, if N’Diaye, was keeping him out the team? Same with KDH, if Alkaraz, had been given a proper chance and proved to be every bit as good as him?

Modern football is all about having a big squad of good players, and my biggest concern regarding David Moyes, would be to ask if he has got the personality to be able to manage this type of squad?

You hear plenty of players praising Moyes, but these are the players on the inside, players who he trusts or trusted. I looked at Dwight McNeil’s body language when he started getting back into the team after being completely banished, and it got me wondering what had been going on behind the scenes, because of his demeanour.

McNeil, has never been a world beater but he has always been a player who seemed to just get on with his job, but suddenly it looked like he just didn’t want to know. Same with Dibling, it might be the kid who has got the problem, but sometimes when you watch him playing, he looks totally bereft of confidence and looks to have the demeanour of a player who feels that he doesn’t quite belong in his surroundings.

If we get into Europe for next seasons games it will be a feather in his cap if we make The European Champions league if we get into the third rate one it would make it difficult, imo, for Moyes or any manager to get us into a good position in the most important competition— the premier league— the one these owners will be looking at— again imo, the money making one.

I think the further we go in that 3rd. rate cup the lower we will finish in the premier league especially with this small squad.

Now he's back we're heading in the same direction and we should have the finances to buy the players we need too, but he can only be compared to someone like Catterick or Kendall when we have won trophies! Having said that I genuinely like him and like how his teams play when they're at their best! And even when I've been most critical of him and his knife to gunfight dourness, his teams have always had a certain spirit and togetherness that has produced great defensive grit sprinkled with flair - cue Osman v Larissa

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155263119461277

Take it easy there mate, you will burst a blood vessel.

How dare you give a negative opinion on the Moyesiah.

Take city, or any pep team. You know how they are going to play, what your going to get every game, the players know, the fans know.

Winning trophy's isn't an identity, the identity comes first.

An identity doesn't guarantee success and trophies, Dyche's team identity for instance!!

I would just quote Tony Abrahams on a post he put on another Moyes thread. Tony who has connections inside the club said that Moyes and Irvine were blown away by the fans welcoming the bus prior to the Chelsea game.

Tony went on to say that in the dressing room Moyes delivered a brilliant speech, reminding players how lucky they were to be in a well paid job that they love and also reminded them about the fans and how much they cared about the club.

For me that's the sort of identity that every fan wants to hear.

I hope Moyes was looking in a mirror when he made that speech and taking notice of it then thanked the fella who wrote it for him!

The same points made by the same people whilst looking at their Brian Clough poster on their bedroom ceiling.

If Moyes were not getting such false credits, you would not hear the other side grinding teeth. He is doing well so just stick with what he is actually achieving. It is the Moyes puffing up that both pisses us off and possibly makes him more risk averse.

I would only consider a Moyes exit if we get embarrassed by the PLs flops in the derby game soon!

He did sign stones too.

Dier is the only real one I can think of who slipped the net.

Can't think of many he never played and came back to haunt us !

Give Dibbling Time, he's got plenty!

Mustafi, was it, who I think played alongside Dier in the reserves and I think went on to Arsenal.

'He'd rather stick with jobbers giving max effort than gamble on someone with flair..'

Still 'Dour Dave' then?

When we beat Chelsea 3-0, we ended up with 4 centre-backs and a left-back on the pitch -- which just sums us up under Moyes.

Let's get things right: If we never had Jordan Pickford tipping them over the bar in the last 5 minutes, we could easily have 10 or more points less... and we could still be down in the Bottom 6.

Moyes is lucky to have a brilliant keeper like Jordan Pickford in goal, pure and simple.

Then look at the league table for the previous say 5 season at this stage of the season. And tell me what is your problem with Moyes?

Moyes is what he is: a safety manager. Do we need to be around the middle for the next 3 years or get someone in with no scar tissue?

Oliver Glasnier for instance. In his 3rd season at Crystal Palace, they won the FA Cup, Charity Shield, and are favourites for the Europa Conference League trophy.

Oh, by the way, he's beaten the Red Shite 5 times in 3 seasons.

Let's sell Jordan Pickford asap and replace him Martin Dubravka as he has conceded more goals than anyone else this season. We will really be able to appreciate the real level of David Moyes's management ability!

On that subject, Arteta is dead jammy to have Raya, and Emery to have Martinez between the posts!

Arsenal and Villa would be fighting relegation if they had poor goalies.

File under: Codswallop

I could be wrong.

"Moyes is lucky to have a brilliant keeper like Jordan Pickford in goal, pure and simple."

So who was in goal under Dyche that conceded 111 goals (1.3 per game and only scored 1.0 per game) and won 26 games out of 84?

Maybe he had a case of Lookmanitis?