Koeman: It's not all doom and gloom

Friday 29 September 2017  253 Comments  [Jump to last]

Ronald Koeman has shrugged off suggestions that his team are in crisis, insisting that things aren't as bad as they seem at Everton.

The Dutchman was in more phlegmatic mood at his press conference at Finch Farm ahead of Sunday's home game with Burnley than he was after last night's disappointing 2-2 draw with Apollon Limassol and he put his side's current difficulties down to the ups and downs of football.

Having declared that Michael Keane and Phil Jagielka remain doubts for Saturday and that decisions will be made over both players tomorrow, the manager explained that he was concerned but not overly so about his team's plight.

“[We need] these experienced players in what is a difficult situation,” he told the television media. “I don't see it as negative as most of you [do] but emotion is a part of football, disappointment is part of football and I showed it yesterday because one goal in the 88th minute is a different world.

“Now it's different. After watching the game back, most of the things I said I still agree [with]. We showed clips to the players, we spoke about how it's possible [to] have so many ball mistakes. But it's not as negative and black as everybody is thinking.

“Everybody understands the situation. I don't have a problem with the attitude of the players.

“In football, you have moments in the game when you are struggling, the confidence drops. If it's one player then it's not such a big problem but if you start the game how we started yesterday, it's a boost of confidence for the opponent.

“Maybe [the fear comes] from the pressure to win the game. We try to analyse everything but they are — and we are — human people. The situation is… it was possible to expect this situation when we knew all the fixtures in the beginning.

“You can lose against Chelsea, you can lose against Tottenham, you can lose against Man United and we played 10 more games, and we lost one of 10 [which] is really positive to this situation. So, it's not all so negative.

“I try to [choose] the best eleven and to start the game and the best system but it's not the time for more excuses because [they don't] count for you (the media).

“Okay, the next game is on Sunday and with a win everybody is happy and maybe we are back… that will be the newspaper [headlines] on Monday. And if we don't win, the [headlines] will be different. But that's football, that way of thinking from everybody.

“I've been in this job too long to lose my confidence but, yes, I am worried about the situation and how we can turn it around. But I have enough confidence to be the same manager that I was the last six, seven years when I was successful.”

 

Reader Comments (253)

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Joe O'Brien
1 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:28:33
Yes, it is, Ron... I don't know what you did with the Koeman at Southampton but you're a shadow of that manager. you're starting to look as Martinez and that's saying something.
Dave Lynch
2 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:29:09
“I've been in this job too long to lose my confidence but, yes, I am worried about the situation and how we can turn it around. But I have enough confidence to be the same manager that I was the last six, seven years when I was successful.”

How does he define success? Keeping Southampton in the Premier League?

Trust me Mr Koeman, I think the majority of fans are more worried than you are.

Steve Bell
3 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:29:31
Turn it round by changing the formation, adding pace from the kick-off, play one defensive midfielder at home and play ALL players in their natural positions. Simple.
David Connor
4 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:30:01
Sorry Ronald. It is all doom and gloom and you are responsible for it. The difference is you don't love the club like we do. We know how shite we are, it seems you don't.
Andy Peers
5 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:30:23
I love to win but if Koeman thinks winning is going to make us happy on Sunday and all is forgiven then he is dumber than I thought.

Having said that, a win in style with good formation and looking like a team that plays well together is on the path of forgiveness.

Geoff Lambert
6 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:42:42
It is for us long-suffering fans, you Dutch cheese head.
John Hammond
7 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:42:48
"I try to [choose] the best eleven and to start the game and the best system but..."

Come on Ron, you don't choose the best eleven. You shoehorn a bunch of No 10's into the side then when it goes to shit you bring on the players you should have started and who we're all crying out for. I really hope someone is holding a gun to your head when you pick the starting eleven each game because otherwise you have no excuse!

Things aren't that bad but they've been pretty shitty. I'm holding on to the positive second half last night as some kind of cliched turning point.

I'm now bracing myself for the pop-up to appear on my phone with Sunday's lineup...

James Marshall
8 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:43:11
I've been trying to look at things from a slightly more positive perspective of late, and in that I mean in recent years. Close to 40 years of supporting Everton has stressed me out no end over the years, but as I get older I get milder - as a result I try to look at things a bit more calmly than I once did.

When you look at the Premier League we're only 4 points off the Champions League places (because it's early I know). In the Europa League we're only 3 points behind top of the table Atalanta (again, it's early doors I know).

I agree Koeman is picking the wrong team (no width/pace/striker etc) and the subject has been done to death on here (rightly so!). What I guess I'm getting at is that I suspect this is what Koeman/Everton are thinking at this point in time.

We're also still in both the cups, until we play Chelsea probably!

Tom Bowers
9 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:54:07
Questions for Mr Koeman:

Why does the team start a game too slow by making far too many passes in their own half?

Why is there no intensity shown until things go wrong?

Why does the opposition have almost free access to attack Everton's back four?

Why did he buy Klaassen and Sandro then start making excuses for them when he picks them?

These questions relate to almost every game this season not just yesterday. They couldn't tighten the defence and hold on for a few minutes longer to get victory against 10-man Man City nor yesterday against 10-man Apollon.

Do we as fans have reason to worry? Of course we do and so should Koeman and the board. Things have not improved since day one despite some spirit shown in the second half yesterday after Calvert-Lewin and Vlasic came on.

Come on Moshiri and Kenwright, it's time to seriously ponder the options.

Joe Edwards
10 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:54:55
Roberto Martinez in his last season... “I thought tactically we were outstanding.  If you look at the way we got set up in the second half, we were the better side and I think we showed an incredible tactical understanding and character.”

(Everton were winning 2-0 at the time of the substitution, but had been reduced to ten men. The Toffees subsequently lost the match 3-2. Gareth Barry was brought on for Romelu Lukaku after West Ham scored the winner.)

Fast-forward to this guy's post-match interview... see any similarities?

Ian Burns
11 Posted 29/09/2017 at 16:59:12
The problem with this press conference is that Koeman actually believes what he is saying.

If, on Sunday, he picks the wrong formation with his fascination of trying to fit each of his favourite Number 10s into the team , the crowd will be moaning as soon as they appear to Z-Cars onto the pitch and confidence will once again be the issue.

I'm not in the UK but he will hear me moaning from a long way away!! Enough is enough – get it right on Sunday, Koeman, and take the first step. If not, turn around and take the first step out of our door and thank you for your contribution – not.

Mike Kehoe
12 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:02:15
Is Ron saying, "Turn that frown upside down"?
John G Davies
13 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:02:52
Tom (#9),

Answer to your first para: Schneiderlin.

He is the get-out-of-jail ball for all of them. He finds space all the time. Problem is the space is always square of, or behind the ball.

Joe Edwards
14 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:04:00
This made me laugh:

Oumar Niasse 

I'm not one to usually jump on a bandwagon but, has Koeman had his chance? I think it's time for Change. Is Ancelotti an option?

Ray Smith
15 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:04:19
James (#8)

I'm looking for reasons to disagree with you, but I can't.

We should be looking to the Chelsea cup gain positively; however, I can't see us getting past them and being on the end of a thumping to boot.

So much for challenging for top 6 – never mind top 4.

Lee Jackson
16 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:07:16
I believe he started redeeming himself slightly by including Davies and Kenny from the start last night (though as it turned out neither set the game alight – though neither were dreadful either). He also has finally started to see the light with starting Calvert-Lewin and in his best position – centre forward (against Bournemouth).

His problems stem from his continued stubbornness in refusing to add pace to the starting line-up (Lookman, Mirallas, Lennon, Vlasic for example – which would also increase width) and his even more stubborn use of two defensive midfielders in every game even at home to 'lesser' sides.

Until he changes those two things performances and results will remain poor and he will rightly remain under pressure.

Mark Morrissey
17 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:10:53
This man is deluded. Benjamin Disraeli took the piss out of William Gladstone and essentially suggested that Gladstone saw himself as a legend in his own lunchtime. He suggested Gladstone was drunk on his own words and that quote sums Koeman up.

"Mr Koeman, you are a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of your own verbosity... blah blah blah." It sums the man up. I hate this man being in charge and I hate listening to him because we are in a shit state because of his lack of footballing common sense but he blames everybody but himself.

Bobby was a bullshitter. This man is worse because he blames others. Bobby BS used loads of guff, this man uses others and blames everyone bar himself. Niasse, Ross, Lookman, Williams, Robles, Kenny, Martina and so it goes on.

I don't need to say what all those names mean because we all know the tag line linked to each and everyone of them and they are all Koeman's doing. Moron... and watch his team formation to play Burnley

Kevin Tully
18 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:16:48
It's not too difficult to play with some semblance of attacking intent, is it? Get crosses into the box, make sure you get bodies into opposition half, supporting the front men. You don't have to have a team full of superstars to show some sort fight, and take the game to the opposition on your home ground.

On Sunday, we'll revert to type. Start off with some neat passing, then it'll all go to shit after 10 minutes. You've broke this version of Everton, Ron. I don't think you can fix it, either.

Frank Crewe
19 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:17:04
He'll start wearing brown shoes and saying everything is phenomenal next. He knows he's skating on thin ice and that he's losing the fans. Our football is so boring we should change the shirt sponsor to Mogadon. If you could bottle Everton you could sell it as rhino tranquilizer.

The fact is that every game is groundhog day. He sends out the same overly defensive, no width, no pace, no striker, stuffed with out of position midfielders formation that huffs and puffs through the first half then concedes a stupid goal. Then half time arrives. On comes the striker and one decent wide player. We change the formation and improve. We are poor because we have no focus to our play because we have no striker hence no out ball. He does not pick the best side he can he picks his blue eyed boys. Rooney, Sandro, Klaassen.

Let's be honest, if Sandro was a local lad, he would be in the Under-23s waiting for his chance like the rest of them. Klaassen is wasting everyone's time. If Anderlecht love him so much maybe they would be prepared to buy him back in January. At least we could get some of our money back.

Then there's Rooney. The elephant in the room. Too slow to play up front. Not as good as Sigurdsson as a No 10 yet he earns too much to be benched. So he spends his time narking with the ref and slowing down the play.

They say the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result but no doubt we'll get more of the same on Sunday.

Laurie Hartley
20 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:21:29
Help!
Rob Young
22 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:25:23
Only still here because of Oumar Niasse, how ironic.

Anthony Hughes
24 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:28:19
Looks like he"s been told to get out there and give it abit of spin.
John G Davies
25 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:30:08
Shane Warne wouldn't be good enough to cover over last night Anthony
Tom Bowers
27 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:38:09
The way the team is set up and the tactics employed by Koeman they will lose to Burnley and Chelsea. There cannot be any illusions about Koeman in that he really is a deer in the headlights.

Williams is a liability and Holgate has yet to impress as a central defender. Kenny has promise but is not yet ready so Martina will come back in.

The tackles of Gana, Schneiderlin and Davies are not yet good enough. It would be nice to see Seamus, Bolasie and Macca all back right now but that ain't gonna happen.

Baines was brilliant yesterday and Vlasic looks like a real steal and has to start on Sunday.

Mark Tanton
28 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:45:34
Burnley is going to be very tough. I think they'll do us to be honest – draws at Liverpool and Tottenham, and of course a win at Chelsea. We are in no shape for such a test, I fear. And I'm not a doom and gloomer normally.
Simon Hermansen
30 Posted 29/09/2017 at 17:47:20
As in Mogadon Schneiderlin, Frank?
John Keating
31 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:04:42
He's as delusional as Martinez and that's saying something!!
Eddie Dunn
32 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:05:32
He is talking utter shite. Williams and Holgate are not going to stop Burnley. If the Cypriots can draw at Goodison, then Burnley will smash and grab the three points.

He needs to wake up, realise his mistake in trying to keep both his expensive signing (Sigurdsson) and his talismanic superstar (Waynetta) in the same team.

The squad has players with pace and skill but he is loath to play them. Oh for 4-4-2.

He won't budge from his 2 defensive mids and his narrow selection of number tens. Can he continue to be so pig-headed?

Rome is on fire and he is in denial.

Amit Vithlani
33 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:06:25
To paraphrase Winston Churchill - an empty taxi arrived at Finch Farm. Ronald Koeman got out.
Mark Morrissey
34 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:09:09
Eddie Dunn, give that man a balloon! What a perfect analogy. Sums up our situation exactly.
Peter Gorman
35 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:09:19
“You can lose against Chelsea, you can lose against Tottenham, you can lose against Man United and we played 10 more games, and we lost one of 10"

So spaketh the loser.

Christian Watson
36 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:10:01
I didn't think we'd ever have a manager who talked as much shit as Martinez, how wrong I was. This buffoon doesn't realize he's lost the plot. I'm no expert but from what I watched last night the team simply aren't playing for him.

Obviously no one on here knows what goes on behind the scenes but my personal opinion is that if he (Koeman) left or was fired Ross would not want away! Maybe, just maybe some of these players have tales to tell about the treatment of certain individuals (Ross, Niasse, Pennington etc) and do not like what they see / hear. Just saying like!!
Denver Daniels
37 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:12:03
Half-time substitutions nearly every game. He is being out-coached and found out tactically.

We need pace, movement off the ball and a midfield that knows how to open up the opposition.

What's the point of Baines and Kenny if they not bombing down the line whipping crosses in?

Gylfi needs to get on the ball more. He hardly had any influence at all in the first half because of the way we were set up.

Koeman needs to catch a wake up.

Colin Glassar
38 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:12:18
Of course it's not all doom and gloom. If I was on £6m a year I'd be on cloud nine every day.
Jason Bowen
39 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:12:19
Still doesn't and never will get us! Do one!
Tony Marsh
40 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:13:07
Some fans who are saying we are only 4 points off 4th place have no idea about what is going on at our club. To me, it appears certain players have downed tools, some aren't arsed either way and some players are new and lost. All down to Ronald Koeman.

If Rooney doesn't get elbowed in the face and the manager is forced to bring on Niasse, we could easily have lost to Bournemouth. Same at Man City; with 11 men, they would of buried us. Stoke at home we were lucky to nick a point, etc etc. 4th place in the league has nothing to do with Everton FC so forget it.

We could so easily have zero points this season plus the debacle in the Europa League. What is it some of our fans don't see here. It's gone on from last season. Most of last season, we were shite with Lukaku propping us up with goals.

I despair listening to the crap the manger spews out and the supporters who think this pathetic fool can turn us around. Koeman has lost both the players and the fans and that's the truth here.

I have to turn down the volume whenever I hear Koeman speak. It was the same with Deadly Dave and Bobby Brown shoes. How much can our lot take before they break..?? I'm already in pieces and it's still only September, FFS.

Lev Vellene
41 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:13:38
No, it's not all doom and gloom with our squad. Far from it!

- But why does Koeman insist on playing two defensive midfielders when we only need ONE, especially at home vs. supposedly inferior opposition? Thus robbing us of an offensively-minded player on the field from the start?

Why doesn't he provide Baines and whatever right wingback with a wide player in front of them to feed/protect? Three players who by nature drifts into a central position, are two too many!

And last, but not least: If the U23 players have to 'prove' they're worthy of a start, why not extend that to the squad as a whole? I should think a prolonged spell on the bench, or 'down' at the U23s 'to keep in shape' might well make the "stars" start finding themselves hungry again...

I'd also add that Koeman has forgotten his very own words, namely that we needed a bigger squad just to be able to rotate players who would otherwise be in the same spot... Don't let injuries, or failed transfers, make the excessive square pegs fill in round holes if they can't really do that!

Denver Daniels
43 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:22:02
Anyone notice how we seem to play triangles but instead of going forward we end up going backwards? We push forward into their final third but then end up back in our own half. Weird.
Ajay Gopal
44 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:23:01
I am actually encouraged by his words today. He does not sound too arrogant, but at the same time, he seems quietly confident of turning things around. I certainly hope so; I hate it when we have to change our managers.

More out of hope rather than belief, I think he will turn it around by a combination to becoming more humble and gentle, getting to know his players better and listening to the fans. I would like Koeman to select this team for Burnley:

(4-1-4-1)
Pickford
Kenny Holgate Williams Baines
Gueye
Davies Rooney Sigurdsson Vlasic
Calvert-Lewin

Niasse and Lookman to come off the bench. This could be the beginning of the revival.

Ray Smith
45 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:30:45
Guys, apart from the odd comment, don't you realise you're all talking logic.

It's got to stop guys, the movers and shakers are not listening and probably wouldn't admit it if they did.

It's very quiet from the boardroom and will probably remain so. Not even the dreaded vote of confidence. So no change I'm afraid for the foreseeable future.

John G Davies
46 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:34:49
Shithouse Koeman. He was in Portugal on transfer deadline day, now he's swimming in Egypt. Not on.
Lev Vellene
47 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:39:39
Denver (#43),

We started looking okay in the second period vs Limassol, but what struck me was that while the 'first' target of a pass had started moving round a bit, there was never a third player that moved into a suitable spot while the first player was looking for the second...

Our players are so experienced that we should expect them to hit our own players with headers, kicks and passes out from the defense, but until we met Limassol, I only ever saw our opposition do that!

That was why we actually should have done better in the last game, for once the opposition was as bad as our own players usually are at that...

Christy Ring
48 Posted 29/09/2017 at 18:49:21
Steve @3

Spot on, but Koeman is a bigger bullshiter than Martinez. He blames everyone, but himself. We've been saying it for weeks; Keown, Ball, Shearer, Sutton, Jenas, Soccer Saturday – everyone can see it, except the clueless Koeman.

We are slow and pedestrian, because we have an unbalanced team with no width, no pace, and 3 No 10s playing together, his summer signings. He had Lookman and Mirallas on the bench last night, we were crying out for pace, he brought on Klaassen?

Wouldn't Ancelotti be a breath of fresh air?

Dan Davies
49 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:04:19
Mastermind, BBC-2 some bloke's special subject – Everton Football Club, on now.
Ian Linn
50 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:18:24
I'm not a "Koeman must go" guy but I start finding myself questioning his team selection and tactics. More importantly though, I am also questioning his man management skills which, from what I see on the pitch and hear off it, could use a lot of improvement.

I watched the game vs Bournemouth on Saturday, it is quite clear that the players lack confidence. The number of times we passed the ball backwards and sideways was depressing – especially when most of the time forward options were available – seems like no-one wants the ball and comes looking for it.

It reminded me of the way England play in big games or tournaments - so much pressure on the players to do well they are shitting themselves and more scared of fucking up than trying something creative.

Seems like we have a lot of engine room players and no flair, Rooney is the only one with a real football brain but he can only do so much and his legs aren't what they used to be.

I don't fear relegation, I just fear a really disappointing season, I don't want Koeman out but by Christmas we have to see a marked improvement and if not, then steps may have to be taken.

And the Europa League – exactly what we don't need right now when we're trying to build a good Premier League side.

COYB

Dennis Stevens
51 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:18:43
If Ron doesn't get this squad playing like a team by the time we play Watford on the 4th November, we should replace him in time for the trip to Palace on 18th November. By then, he will have had ample time to have the players buy in to his vision and it'll be obvious if they simply don't, regardless of whether it's a case of can't or won't.
Mike Kehoe
52 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:31:38
Come on everyone cheer up, hopefully the American and Korean lunatics will nuke Europe off the map before the derby.
David Barks
53 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:34:06
Our very own Baghdad Bob. Brilliant. I feel better.
Nick Lacey
54 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:36:51
He, like Martinez, is amazingly frustrating. As much as we want our favourites to play and do well, there really shouldn't be any sentiment and favourites in football, only players who are on form and are producing.

I can't understand that when a manager is under pressure, from the fans and the press, that they continue to select their 'favourites' who continuously let them down which then heaps more pressure on the manager.

A sign of a true leader is surely someone who can admit/see that things are not working with their favourites and switch things around.

Let's be honest, Koeman gets praise for selecting young, talented players but all the young, talented players that have been forced upon him mainly due to injuries or suspensions. Once these young players have played well and proved what they are capable of, they are then often instantly dropped for the underperforming favourites (unless there is no alternative, eg, Davies, Calvert-Lewin, Holgate – these players should be playing).

Anyone and everyone can see that we need pace in the squad (we do have pace: Mirallas, Lookman, Davies, Calvert-Lewin, Vlasic, Lennon and others that are currently injured). But yet he seems to hate playing with most of them.

Rooney, in my opinion, does looks good but I think that is mainly due to him slowing everything down which makes the others look not so good and him look so much better. He should not be playing.

Substituting Gueye over Schneiderlin (who I'm convinced is half crab) was just a shocking decision. Gueye being one of our most consistent players.

Williams should never wear an Everton shirt. Although I thought his initial purchase was expensive but a good deal for the short term, he hasn't been good and has already gifted 3 goals to the opposition this season.

I think that most of the players that he has bought this window have been good players, but not necessarily what we needed.

I will not criticise Sigurdsson for not playing well. He is our most expensive player and should be played in his proper position not on the wing or the right of a 3 behind the attacker but as a number 10. Klaassen needs time to adapt to the Premier League, but he is one of the players that we didn't need as we have so many number 10s (who don't score).

Koeman, do yourself a favour, pick the players who are on form not the players who you are pally with or you bought just to try and save face.

Don't even get me started about playing two defensive midfielders every game against ever opposition.

Sorry for the rant, I don't want to be THAT guy... just needed a little vent.

Mark Morrissey
55 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:38:02
Question on Mastermind...

Q:"Who was the famous Dutch Master who turned Everton into a Championship side for the first time in their history in the season 2017-18?" A: "Was it that prick Koeman?"

"Correct!"

Geoff Evans
56 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:42:03
Another defeat on Sunday will probably see the back of him. Poor manager, poor team.
Steavey Buckley
57 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:48:49
Koeman got out of jail last season because Lukaku turned into a monster striker, and would be scoring more goals this season if united could pass quicker and more accurately to him. This season, Koeman sounds like the captain on the bridge of the Titanic.
Ray Smith
58 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:54:25
Ronald Koeman on Mastermind.

Q: "Why are Everton so poor this season?"

A: "Pass"

"Correct!"

My sense of humour, sorry.

James Owen
59 Posted 29/09/2017 at 19:59:45
Re Ray. (#58) Yep mate!

Your sense of humour, that's why your working behind a check-out in B&Q and not a regular on the comedy circuit! Haha.

Have a word with yourself, mate.

Colin Glassar
60 Posted 29/09/2017 at 20:15:39
Koeman has managed to suck out any enthusiasm I had for this season. I didn't want to watch the game last night (but I did) and I don't want to watch the game on Sunday (but I will) as our football is, quite frankly, boring as hell.

It's not only boring it's embarrassingly bad. If Koeman can't see this, and stop blaming his players, then he needs to go.

Jamie Crowley
61 Posted 29/09/2017 at 20:27:21
Forgetting our Cup and European adventures, in the league we've beaten those we "should have" in Stoke and Bournemouth.

Frankly, we've lost to two teams who will challenge for the title or at least finish top 4 in Chelsea (away) and Man Utd (away).

We drew against title contenders in Man City which is a good result (should have won... ).

Of all our games to date I'd say we've done "what we should" and we've had a hellacious schedule to start the season.

Except That Spurs game. We looked positively AWFUL. That's the game that has me thinking we're in trouble. If we're to break into any top 4/6 place, surely we have to be much, much better than that! It was terrible.

I'm going to be patient. If we continue to beat the teams we should, and ultimately show well against the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal, there's light at the end of some obscure tunnel. If we shit the bed against either Arsenal or the Liverpool, or God forbid a very difficult game like Burnley, then I'll grab my pitchfork.

All of this, mind, is being really patient while our manager shoehorns 18 fucking Number 10s into our team.

Reservedly keeping the faith, but ready for mutiny.

Kim Vivian
62 Posted 29/09/2017 at 20:35:05
Ajay (#44). Interesting post. I just read that. When my son came in from work this evening I asked him had he caught the press conference He hadn't and I made exactly that comment – that he did not come across as arrogant, or indeed bereft of ideas, rather more humble, and I felt in a way a little sorry for him.

I also dislike the modern hiring and firing which we see every week but I have posted a couple of comments regarding his tenure, none of which has been a cry to fire him like, now, but I have said I think he will walk if things do not improve. I see him as a reasonably dignified individual and in doing so would maintain some degree of self respect.

Your suggested line up looks sound to me although on last night's showing I think I would start Martina ahead of Kenny. I thought Kenny looked absolutely goosed at one point half way through the second period. Calvert-Lewin should indeed be leading the line from the off. He's beginning to look the real deal.

Soren Moyer
63 Posted 29/09/2017 at 20:53:14
And some fans were over the moon we won against the mighty Bournemouth at home! Small club mentality has well and truly settled in.
Mick Conalty
64 Posted 29/09/2017 at 20:56:56
Mark Morrisey (#17) I love your verbosity, ever though of being chairman on The Good Old Days? Brilliant.

At least I am enjoying my Saturday nights when we play in the Europa League. When we are out, I suppose they"ll turn to shit again.

Jamie Evans
65 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:01:37
Does anyone else think well be just fine?
Andy Crooks
66 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:11:51
Soren, I was over the moon when we won against Bournemouth.You know why? Because I like to see the team I support win. Small club mentality? Perhaps.You obviously don't have that mentality. So, may I ask? What the fuck are you doing about it?
Matt Nash
67 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:12:04
Colin (#60) and Soren (#63) spot on. Colin, exactly how I feel.

Loved watching the Blues on a Thursday evening with a few beers, getting the weekend started early and all that, but we're so shite with that clown in charge, I had a cuppa instead. It's getting embarrassing.

Kevin Tully
68 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:14:13
Bilic & Koeman 2/1 joint favs to be the next manager out of the door.

I'm sticking my neck out and calling Koeman will be sacked after a defeat to Burnley on Sunday. I've heard Kenwright is not a fan of his on a personal level.

John Malone
69 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:17:57
The right signing's make or break a manger just as much as his tactic's or coaching!!

I worry that it was Les Reed the Southampton technical director who brought in the quality signing's of Van Dijk, Aldervereild, Bertrand, Mane, Wanyama into the club what made Koeman look better than what he really is!!

Sandro and Klaassen are nowhere near good enough at the minute and maybe never will be!

Sigurdsson is what he is a grafter and set piece taker who is a bit useless if he hasn't got a big man to pick out!

Rooney is still a good footballer but does not offer enough in the final third, so I'm sorry Mr Koeman your signing's and your system are simply not good enough!!!

Ray Smith
70 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:21:58
Kevin (#68),

Kenwright loves Ross and Rooney. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenwright for once cut and run, rather than sticking as he did, with Moyes and Martinez in the past.

Christian Watson
71 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:24:11
Ray Smith. Quality post. Loved it. And unfortunately true.
Chris Leyland
72 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:24:55
Sometimes in all walks of life, you hire the wrong person and things don't go as planned. I think this has happened with Koeman. It just hasn't clicked for him and he doesn't seem to ‘get' Everton or the supporters.

As fans, we will take losing if we can come away from the ground knowing that every player tried and gave their all. What we can't take is the lack of passion or lack or desire or lack of shape or lack of movement and the sheer frustration every week we are feeling now.

People call for patience and hark back to times when the Board stuck by Kendall or when Man Utd stuck by Alex Ferguson but to me, this just feels different.

Unlike some, I bear no ill will or malice to Koeman and won't resort to insulting him about his weight, hair colour, nationality, salary level etc, but I do feel that the club needs a change of manager and an injection of impetus that a new manager with a new plan will bring.

Because, despite everything, with a shape and a plan, we do actually have some decent players but Koeman just doesn't seem able to put them into the shape or motivate them to perform.

John Grace
73 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:39:49
I feel like Martinez got us going with the back-up of the Moyes defence. Then he got full control of things and wiped out our defensive quality...

Now, it feels like Koeman initially tightened up the back again but now we are headless going forward...??

Do we now have to have a 3rd guy in to equalise both??

Ray Robinson
74 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:40:58
Andy Crooks (#66), I totally know where you're coming from. Small time mentality? Maybe... but for me Everton overcoming a 1-0 deficit to win a game in the last quarter of an hour, that made my weekend.

For the more strident critics on here who accuse some of us of accepting mediocrity (you know who you are), what are you doing about it? Withholding your season ticket renewal? Selling on Stubhub? Not attending cup matches? Organising petitions / demonstrations / flypasts? Petitioning the Board?

If you feel that strongly about it, please do something that I could consider joining in with. But until you do, don't accuse the rest of us of accepting mediocrity because we continue to attend matches in the vague hope that things will improve.

Now then, do I ignore the reminder received today to apply for my ticket for the Lyon match?

Tony Hill
75 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:42:56
Kevin (#68), if Kenwright doesn't like him personally, I may start to change my mind and call for him to stay. Any person who fails to share the Teary One's (BFF Philip Green) vision of Everton and the world must have some sort of taste and judgment.

Andy Crooks
76 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:43:58
Kevin, I think a defeat on Sunday just might do for him. However, I think we will win well... because it is the Everton way, nothing can be straight-forward, we will win and his dismissal will not seem obvious. It will be touch and go till Christmas.

I think Koeman should be sacked. It will not happen. He will scrape by, doing just enough. We are shite, but not shite enough.

Brendan Fox
77 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:44:45
Koeman is on a PR drive to try and secure his job for as long as he can; he has no affinity to the club or the supporters – just his own bank balance.

He supposedly trains/coaches the players, selects the players for the matchday squads, the tactics, the formations – yet it is just a minor confidence issue. "Bollocks" is what I'm hearing and just excuses to extend his tenure.

The more people that wake up the sooner to see this for what it is, the better as action needs to be taken by the fans to make our feelings known to the board that we won't stand for this and changes need to be made to save the season and our league status.

Neil Lawson
78 Posted 29/09/2017 at 21:51:09
I wouldn't be gloomy or doomy either. What's the worst that can happen? I get sacked. I get a huge pay-off and I fly off to my villa in the sun to play golf and sup expensive wines.
Bob Parrington
79 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:06:06
What needed to be said has all been stated on here all the way through to #68. So what else is relevant?

Well, after all of the positivity through the summer break, with the move to Bramley-Moore Dock high on the agenda, early signings (not normal for Everton previously), targeting squad strength to mount an attack on the top 6, there was a massive expectation built in the fan base and on here in particular.

You can't build such a level of expectation and then show no signs of delivering on it. So what was missed?

Up to the start of the season, Koeman was being seen in a relatively positive perspective. What was the key that opened up the door to the abject failure so far?

We forgot that to mount an attack on the top 6 we need an "attack". We sold Lukaku but we failed to replace him! Then, there's a manager/coach principle that attacks win games but defences win tournaments. And what did we do in defence? Less than half a job. We bought Keane but we kept Williams, when the squad cried out for another fast and strong central defender. This is the Premier League and Europa League. There is no room for older, slow players.

Much comment on here relates to having too many midfielders. All the dosh was spent on the midfield to the extent that it is a road block to quick transition.

So, a question! Is it just Koeman who should be "on the nose" right now?

Dick Fearon
80 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:11:00
Mastermind question,
Who called the Everton manager a clown?
Answer,
Who called that clown a manager?
Soren Moyer
81 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:14:23
Andy Crooks, I am over the moon for you buddy!
Darryl Ritchie
82 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:23:13
I think Koeman is trying to bail a sinking ship with a teacup. There is a definite fog of doom hovering overhead and it sure as hell is gloomy.

The players have stopped playing for him, and he doesn't have the people skills to win them back.

Andy Meighan
83 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:30:12
Bob (#79),

Who was Koeman being seen in a relatively positive perspective by? Please tell me because I'm intrigued... His signings never got me or any other Evertonian I know (and I know a few) excited, believe me.

It's strange that you defended him last night but, reading between the lines tonight, you seem to have come to the same conclusion as most of us: He's not up to it. Make your mind up, please.

Oh, by the way, Bob... Have you ever watched a Koeman Everton side live? Please tell me, I'm dying to know.

Martin Mason
84 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:36:25
I'm glad that those who claim to not accept mediocrity are being exposed for not actually having any clothes.

We have to be seen to be fair and dumping a manager at the start of a season is not fair to anybody and it isn't the way of the Club or fans. I say end of this year or earlier if the board decide that all is lost.

Seriously, should we have sacked Kendall Mk 1 or Man Utd sacked Ferguson after looking totally incompetent for a couple of years? Of course not and once you accept that, as you must, then you must agree that dumping our manager now is total lunacy and commercial idiocy. We are a club – not just a thick cloggy Head Coach.

Jimmy Hogg
85 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:42:05
Time to put on the tin hat and get behind the team.

Our silent crowd only helps the opposition. If the players can't inspire the fans, the fans must inspire the players.

Coyb.

Eric Paul
86 Posted 29/09/2017 at 22:44:06
Mick @64

Your Sundays must be a great laugh, the sooner we are out of this weekend wrecking trophy the better as we have no chance of winning it.

Mark Morrissey
87 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:08:24
They even discussed Everton's poor form on The Debate this evening at 10pm on Sky Sports; the ex-Palace chairman Jordan was on there and he called it. He said that Koeman's rhetoric was that of a man trying to lay a foundation for what happens years down the line.

He reckoned that Koeman is laying the blame fairly and squarely with the players so that he doesn't leave a trail of negativity surrounding himself. Danny Mills was toewing the party line saying everyone has to step up to the plate.

I was dying for Jeff Stelling to say "C'mon then, Simon, if you were his chairman, would you sack him?" But the question never materialised. Jordan has him sussed – if that Prince Charming look-a-likey has him sussed, surely Moshiri has his number too.

Sunday could be the death knell for Koeman and I for one will be rejoicing if he gets the push. He's a deluded galoot.

Jim Hardin
88 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:11:46
Not sure why so many on here are claiming we lack pace and we pass slowly. I do not see that at all. Do what I do, tape the games and watch them at 2x the normal speed. Rooney looks like he hasn't lost a step at all to me.
Jack Convery
89 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:12:39
Koeman will never live or breathe Everton. He is a salaried employee – end of.
Eddie Dunn
90 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:19:27
When Koeman was appointed, I was delighted. I can honestly say that his press conferences were a joy to listen to after the bullshit of Martinez.

I have given the man plenty of time to prove his worth. However, as much as I like his candour, My first loyalty is to my first love...Everton Football Club.

Once an incumbent threatens the stature of our great club, I cease to prop them up. The guy has got so many things wrong that he cannot simply blame it all on injuries or fear.

So many poor tactical choices, too many mistakes that even a child would realise was folly. The man may have been let down by his Board. For all we know he may have thrown all of his toys out of his pram in frustration at our useless bunch of amateur dramatists.

I can only wonder at the off -field machinations. However, I can see that 65% of ToffeeWebbers would have better team selections, and more insight into what to do in the current crisis. This tells me that Mr Koeman has fucked-up big time, and is floundering in his attempts to give excuses for what has occurred.

It is a total mess, and I now say with total sincerity, that things will definitely only get worse this Sunday. Now the World and his wife will realise that Niasse is dangerous, and Calvert-Lewin is our main man.The two totems can expect a proper marking from the Burnley Borrowers. Our defence is on borrowed time.

I am ready for the worst. No pragmatic, verbal bollocks can convince me that we are in the same sort of shit as the latter days of Martinez. The project is dead.

Long Live Ancelotti!

Ernie Baywood
91 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:25:08
While it would be nice to see some passion for the club I'd get over it if he at least showed some understanding of the game.

He plays a back 6 plus 3, sometimes 4 number 10s.

It's not hard to see the problems. No attacking width, no one to stretch the game up front, too big a gap between defence and attack, too many bodies in the one part of the pitch where we have some quality.

It's just broken beyond belief. The frustrations with the men who went before him don't even compare to this amateurish nonsense.

Tony Williams
92 Posted 29/09/2017 at 23:47:48
Eddie Howe, self-confessed Evertonian.
Jerome Shields
93 Posted 29/09/2017 at 00:00:37
What a load of rubbish. Does he really think he is fooling anyone?

Koeman, your lack of tactical ability is obvious. No-one has confidence in you. You are trying to build a defensive formation. You are failing.

Brent Stephens
94 Posted 29/09/2017 at 00:00:59
Jim #88 "tape the games and watch them at 2x the normal speed. Rooney looks like he hasn't lost a step at all to me".

Brilliant, Jim! And the agony would be over faster. I'm going fro 30x speed for the Burnley game.

Andy Dempsey
95 Posted 30/09/2017 at 00:32:16
Mark (#87) 'deluded galoot'

Truly beautiful. I was a big fan in the 90's. Not sure about their recent albums.

He is the worst manager we've had by the way, it just feels so empty. He's killed football for me. I'm into Rugby League now, my team is Castleford, it's just so much more exciting.

Brent (#94) & Jim (#88)

I find taking speed is the best way to get through it, personally, but will give your method a go instead.

Ian Riley
96 Posted 30/09/2017 at 00:39:56
Jack (#89) says it all.

William Cartwright
98 Posted 30/09/2017 at 05:53:32
Koeman has come out with a fast follow-up to his earlier blame worthy negative post for a simple reason; he knows he is in trouble. Ajay, don't be fooled so easily. leopards no not change their spots and he is one self-centered, greedy, arrogant SOB.

I see in the media Lookman is now on Spurs' radar for the Christmas window. Holy shit, after the Barkley fiasco, how much more denigration has the Club got to suffer before it is time to say enough is enough and we set on a recovery plan?

I hate the emotion that follows when Everton don't perform, followed closely by the depression that follows when we don't win, but under Koeman we are doing neither.

The only thing I have belief in is that Moshiri is nobodies fool and certainly not Kenwright's. The manner in which Roberto was dismissed was swift and 'classy' if such a move can be called that. Roberto was cold shouldered, (I don't think he ever met with Moshiri?), and Unsy and Joe came in for a last hurrah of the season and we moved forward to bigger and better things, supposedly...

I thought the expensive option of Koeman was a genuine game changer for plucky little Everton and it has certainly proved that but not in the way that was expected.

As a football loving businessman, Moshiri can and will expand his wealth in what should be a win / win relationship for him and the Club and the supporters. Several commentators suggest he is using the new found wealth in the Premier League to his own benefit. Possibly so – he is first and foremost a businessman.

All I know is we have made massive strides forward with the quality of the playing staff and the fans and the media were expecting a supercharged team to step forward. The seeds were sown for the new stadium and investments in the financial base of the Club have been made.

It is the team management that is letting him down badly .

He will be watching the situation closely, listening to the media, the fans and the first silent, stupefied and then angry crowd. Koeman knows he is on a short leash and he is running out of credit. I would expect his big fat contract has several performance related safety nets to safeguard the interests of all the Parties.

After the hoopla of his arrival by private jet, Ronald's ego will have come down to earth and he must change his style and get results or there will be a change of management by Christmas at the very latest. The only question for me is will Moshiri cut a deal with Unsy and Joe to tag team us forward because another 'interim posting' may be insufficient reward for the simply amazing job Unsy has done since his arrival.

Watch this space, and bye bye Ronald, you total dickhead.

Mark Andersson
99 Posted 30/09/2017 at 06:07:12
Your all entitled to your opinion.. .but shouldn't you read the post above before repeating the same view..sick of reading we should have bought a striker.. we should be playing with more width, etc..

As for Morshi and the board, I personally don't think Everton have improved in any way either on or off the field.

There is no evidence to back Mr Money Mouth when he proclaimed that we cant carry on living on history. He now has to make the choice to stick or twist.

There are quite a few fans on here who make valid points to were this club is at and were it's going. It's gone stale very quickly and you should throw the stale stuff out and buy fresh coz it's going to get very mouldy..

Brian Porter
100 Posted 30/09/2017 at 06:25:58
Well said, Lyndon. For you to come out so firmly in the anti-Koeman camp is a massive statement of just how bad things are at this point. To Koeman, I'd say that, as you say things aren't as bad as they seem... they are worse than that.

All we have now is excuse after excuse as we lurch from one poor result to another. Have you now alienated Ademola Lookman who appears to have joined a growing group of players on your 'naughty step' or personal sin bin?

Koeman has an ego that far exceeds the reality of his ability. Instead of putting the club first, he appears to put himself and his personal dogma ahead of everything else.

He says he's not bothered if the fans boo at the end of the game. Well, he damn well should be bothered. But doesn't that show the size of the gulf between Koeman and the fans who pay to watch the Mogadon man's tactics being foisted on them, game after game, ad nauseum?

Ed Bottomley, writing from Michigan USA in his Dixie's 60 column penned a great piece after Thursday's debacle. See it here... /Link

Bigger and better teams than us have already dispensed with failing managers this season. Why do Everton always wait until we have one foot in the grave before we take action in this respect?

The man is a fraud and a failure, so full of his own arrogance and refusal to admit to even one mistake. It's time to part company while there is still a chance of saving something from this season.

If he's still in charge at Christmas, I fear we'll already be involved in a relegation dogfight and hardly an attractive proposition for any decent managers who might be available at that time. This is getting very scary!

Laurie Hartley
101 Posted 30/09/2017 at 06:37:35
William Cartwright (#98) – that is a fine post and cheered me up.
David Johnson
102 Posted 30/09/2017 at 07:14:59
I think that part of the problem is that we've gone and promised a load of players first team football, in order to get them to sign on the dotted line. The transfer window was royally fucked up and it's not really clear who was responsible for it.

Those promised a start, now need to accept that the rest of the squad deserve a chance and whoever was responsible for the transfer debacle needs to stick their hand up. I think Koeman will get it right but not without proper backing from the board.

Who the fuck was responsible for the transfer mess in the summer? If Koeman knew there was no more money then he is to blame for not spending it more wisely but did he know?

To me it looks as though somebody has just signed a shitload of players off his wish list without considering the overall strength of the first eleven.

David Johnson
103 Posted 30/09/2017 at 07:35:18
Rooney, Klassen, Sigurdsson all vying for one position with Martina and Holgate the only options for another. That is fucking criminal.
Chas Sheppard
104 Posted 30/09/2017 at 07:59:05
I go to the games and I share the disappointment and frustration. However I think we are in the midst of a "perfect storm" of issues largely not of the team and Koeman's making and we need to give them time and backing for it to blow through.

We are

● integrating a large number of new players into the squad – Rooney, Ramirez, Klaassen, Sigurdsson, Keane, Martina, Pickford (and Niasse!) are all new to the squad. It will take time for this number of new players to get to know one another's games and weld as a team. It takes time for the manager to know his best formation and system. This number of new players is not of Koeman's making; we know he inherited a bang-average squad bar Lukaku. He could take longer to change things more gradually but do we want to take 10 years to get to the destination – Champions League?

● facing a horrendous injury list. We have topped the Premier League injury table since the beginning of the season. We are missing 5 likely members of the matchday squad in Coleman, Funes Mori, Barkley, Bolasie and McCarthy. The first two in particular are sorely missed. Again this is not of Koeman's making.

● playing with kids. The injury list is forcing us to play with kids – what other Premier League team has 5 members of the England U20 team in its matchday squad (Calvert-Lewin, Davies, Lookman, Holgate, and Kenny). Vlasic and Ramirez are similarly young (even if the latter doesn't look it!). The Premier League is a brutal place to learn and the younger players are doing brilliantly but it will take time for them to get to Premier League level. Meantime, the FA should be loving us – who else is blooding this number of England youngsters? I can't see this as Koeman's "fault"; he has little choice given the injury list and shallow squad he inherited.

● left with massive transfer window holes. From the start of the transfer window, Koeman said he needed a striker and a left-sided defender to cover for Funes Mori and an ageing Baines. He got neither. It's not his fault that he didn't; this is Walsh's job. I don't blame him either as he clearly tried to bring in players of the quality of Giroud and Costa but it didn't work out. Should we buy average players because they're available? I think not if we have Champions League ambitions. Walsh did bring in a load of good players to give him credit. It will take 2-3 years to build the squad to where we need it; meanwhile, Koeman has holes in the squad that are not of his making and being fair he hasn't complained – he's just got on with it.

● the fixture list from hell. Again, clearly not of Koeman's making. Even Mourinho (not known for his soft side!) has expressed sympathy. Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, and Tottenham gave us what is looking like this year's top 4 in successive games, three of them away. Tough at any time but horrendous when your team is gelling and filled with kids. As Koeman has said, it's destroyed our confidence. At least we have shown some resilience and fight in coming back against Bournemouth and Limassol.

Sorry about the long post but this is quite a "perfect storm". The good news is that, given time, the newcomers should integrate, the kids should gain experience, the injuries should mend, the transfer holes get filled, and the easier fixtures come. Let's give Koeman and the team some time. If in January we're still where we are, then we'll need to think again. Meanwhile COYB.

Mike Berry
106 Posted 30/09/2017 at 08:58:45
Oh yes it is Ronald, and it's mainly down to you and your tactics!
Rob Young
107 Posted 30/09/2017 at 09:05:52
Thank you, William (#98), spot on. Why wait to kick him out? We'll be in the bottom half, out of Europe and the League Cup come Christmas.

Might as well give Rhino a go until Christmas and actually have a chance of being in a better position and maybe still in Europe.

Darren Hind
108 Posted 30/09/2017 at 09:22:52
Ray Robinson,

It's not the acceptors of mediocrity who need to give their heads a wobble its those who have embraced it. It's the grass-skirted kite flyers. the apologist, the self-proclaimed optimist who repeatedly got personal and shouted down the people who saw the writing on the wall... and they did so because they couldn't even see the fucking wall.

Everton was once a mighty club. A giant of football. We had a chairman who believed we were kings and a fan base who expected it. He told us if we didn't like what we saw, something should be done about it, he went on to say something would be done about it – I'd love to find that link.

We as a club were winners. we were not satisfied with winning we needed to do it in style. We once sacked a manager for playing ugly.

Down the years, the expectation of our club has been gradually down sized. Managed and manipulated by people who didn't have the wherewithal to do any better. Many of the fans swallowed it hook line and sinker. The people selling grass skirts and kites at the end of Goodison Road are doing a roaring trade. You don't need to stray from these pages to see that.

The excitement generated by paying ridiculously over the odds for what I said at the time were some very ordinary players is a testament to it. Evertonia was in a frenzy, some even told us they hadn't been this excited for years.

I had decided not to comment any further on Koeman after Thursday. I felt those who insisted on defending this shite were simply doing so in order to save face. Their judgement and criticism of those who could see a clearer picture a year before them, didn't need to be discussed. However...

There appears to be a bit of a trend growing here. Those who failed to see the big fuck-off writing on the wall are now turning with a vengeance on those who did. Obviously these people cant agree with each other. While some of them are bleating about Goodison having the most toxic atmosphere in the country (an embarrassing inaccurate statement), others (you, Mason etc) are now throwing down the gauntlet, asking what we, the critics, are going to do about it.

Whichever of these groups you belong to, by taking our current predicament out on people simply because they could see things were wrong long before you could. You are simply making your judgement look even more suspect.

The defence of Koeman is in tatters, The only argument being offered up now is a ridiculous comparison between Kendall and Ferguson and Koeman, It doesn't matter how many times, that one is batted out of the park, a certain individual will continue cling to it like a comfort blanket.

If I'm a chairman whose fans get on my back when standards drop for a second and will continue to turn up the heat until I know I will be their next target. I will get my arse into gear and do something about it.

If I am a chairman whose fans are wildly excited by the signings of mediocre players, rejoice at the prospect of Thursday night humiliation and see 6th or 7th place playing zombie football as improvement. I'm not going to be arsed getting out of my deck chair.

In order for any action to be taken, a sizeable majority needs to be behind the movement. Those who saw the writing on the wall are having to wait for the patient to run out of patience, for the desperate to be right to accept they are wrong and for the happy clappers to stop clapping. It's a tortuous process, but its one we had to go through with Martinez and it's one we are having to go through now.

The patient have had their patience stretched to the limit. If things don't change and change fast, Those who's delicate ears take offence to a fan voicing his frustration and exasperation would be well advised to stay away from Goodison Park and those who ask what are you doing about it will be answered in no uncertain terms.

Evertonians were once amongst the most knowledgeable and hard to please supporters in the game, but too many of them have allowed their expectations to be managed. Too many of them have never known success and have bought into the glass ceiling shite spouted by Moyes... These days, far too many speak the language of the loser.

"Yeah but if you look at what happened to Sir Alex 40 years ago" .... Fuck me.

Will Mabon
109 Posted 30/09/2017 at 09:24:53
Things being as they are, nothing would surprise me – including Levy making a malicious statement re. interest in Lookman, whilst we are down on the floor. However the BBC-linked Mirror article states that there are several other clubs interested, so maybe no smoke etc.

More tellingly, the article mentions Koeman's "reluctance to play wingers". It's that obvious now to people in the media; not described as a recognized new formation or tactics, a way of playing, but a reluctance to play them.

Reading all the posts, everything relevant has been said, and it's clear even Koeman's defenders are mostly stumped. Aside from one or two being prepared to go to Christmas with him, no-one has responded to the offer made by someone, to make a case defending him and why he should stay.

Of wider importance, I believe, is the question of the club itself. For all the talk of who does what, what went wrong with the transfers, who screwed up this or that, who would fire Koeman, my personal view is that the real direction of the plan is only faltering slightly, in that Koeman is showing to be a bit less capable than the board planned for at this stage – but that's another story.

Dave Abrahams
110 Posted 30/09/2017 at 09:40:46
William (#98) very good post, but if Unsworth takes over (which I wouldn't advocate personally) I would leave big Joe Royle in his comfort zone; he has earned his rest.
Paul Tran
111 Posted 30/09/2017 at 09:46:08
Darren, agree with all of that, bar your view of the new players. I think they're good players who are having their heads scrambled by what they're being asked to do. Better to judge them under a manager who gives clear, simple instructions.

I'll bow to your earlier judgement of Koeman. I thought we'd fare better with 'his' players. I was wrong there and and I think the raised expectations have made things worse.

I mentioned on another thread, his future is dependent on the level of pride and stubbornness Moshiri has. If we are beginning to act like a big club, we'll be sounding out potential successors now.

Derek Thomas
112 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:04:44
Darren @108; Bravo, 11/12 months ago I said it wasn't working and sometimes it's better to admit to the fact earlier rather than later.

Yet there are still some saying give him 10 games or wait until Christmas, etc. We went through all this with the last clown and Sept/Oct soon became March and it was I'm sure only the arrival of the then new broom of Moshiri got him into the taxi.

We all know that Bill got on well with the last 2 and was loath to get rid (what a manager)...not so sure he has that rapport with Koeman, thus I can't see him going in to bat for him.

49.99% or not, Moshiri called the tune and his first pick was Koeman. I hope his second pick is better and is made, win lose or draw, before Monday.

Andrew Clare
113 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:12:09
Darren,

I think that's the best post I have ever seen on ToffeeWeb. I am astounded that nigh on 40,000 people are going to watch the dire football that we are producing every fortnight. 30 years of mainly crap and we still have the best fans in football.

We have sunk so low. If we lose/draw tomorrow and I'm pretty sure we will then Koeman should go. If by some strange chance we win then the agony will be prolonged.

With Kenwright no doubt advising Moshiri to be patient we are in big trouble. Koeman is in a win win situation and he knows it. He has no connection with or passion for our club. If he's sacked he will claim that wasn't given enough time and he will take a big pay off.

If we had John Moores as chairman Koeman would have gone already. Eleven years of Moyes along with all the other baffling managerial appointments, bar Joe Royle, since Howard Kendall's successful time have wrecked our standing in the game's hierarchy.

A succession of poor unambitious boards who failed to build a new stadium had doomed us to mid-table mediocrity. Now there is no need to accept that situation. We have a billionaire owner willing to spend money and firm plans for a new state of the art stadium.

Let's for once hire a manager with a proven track record and the ability to vary tactics and motivate players. Why wait let's get Koeman out and get the right man in. The season's in tatters anyway if we keep him.

Mike Allison
114 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:16:41
Darren, you post as if you had some kind of superior foresight, proving once and for all that you really do know more about football than anyone who disagrees with you. What arrogant nonsense!

The reality is that you whinge and moan no matter what happens, then when something eventually goes wrong you go "See, told you"!

You and your ilk are not the vindicated superiors, you're the stopped clocks who are right twice a day. There was no reason to be so sure Koeman would fail until very recently. Even now, he has a chance of turning it round, although the balance of likelihood has turned heavily against this happening.

Most of the defence of Koeman on these pages, as it was with Martinez, is not from blind apologists who can't see the glaringly obvious problems; it's from people who are themselves critical, but in a far more reasonable and balanced way.

It's inevitable that those people will react to try to offer balance when constantly confronted with a cascade of emotional, hysterical overreactions claiming the level of foresight and superiority the likes of you manage to come out with. And so they should.

Jim Knightley
115 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:24:19
Koeman deserves to go. This isn't the Moyes days anymore – we are not spending 2million net, because we can't match the purchasing power of Stoke and Sunderland. We spent £140mil gross this summer, even if that requires contextualisation because of the loss of our best player.

Yes players need time to gel – yes we will be better in a couple of months. But that isn't the point. The point is that the tactics are gone. There is no sense of structure, no clear plan. Koeman doesn't know his best team or best style. The players are clearly nervous – Williams, despite his age, is a wreck at the moment.

The results, at least in the main, were not entirely unanticipated. Anyone who thought we would be challenging for 4th does not understand football imho. But these performances are not acceptable for a club like us – especially in Europe. We've been hammered several times and mustered so little in those games.

We haven't put in a performance for more than 30 minutes this season. Koeman, who was progressive at Southampton, has been regressive this season.

There were signs of life last season – we sorted out the home form and put in some good individual and team performances from the end of December onwards. But we've gone backwards again now, and I'd rather give the job to someone who can instil life and confidence.

Koeman looks clueless – personally, I'd sack him if we don't put in a much improved performance on Sunday. Give Unsworth the job on a temporary basis and take time looking for a new manager/assessing Unsworth. If we do inexplicably put in a very good 90 minutes then give him till the next break. Obviously managers have come back from the brink before, but I don't see it happening with Koeman and I don't think very many of us do now.

We have problems in the squad that we will need to sort out over the coming season or two. We need a new left back, a new centre-back, a new striker, and to develop or buy a pacey wide player. But there is no excuse for the level of dogshit we've been forced to watch so far.

Brent Stephens
116 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:30:39
Mike (#114) "Darren, you post as if you had some kind of superior foresight".

Most on here probably see this as a dire situation with Koeman but I don't recall any superior foresight about this; I don't recall anybody in the early months of last season being anything but at least cautiously hopeful – Darren included.

Martin Mason
117 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:31:28
Mike @114

Darren, like all of his ilk, does absolutely nothing but whinge on social media sites. Nothing constructive, nothing positive, no solutions – only whining criticism. We all know how Everton are playing, we all know the weaknesses, we all know how poor Koeman has been.

Come on Darren, clear answer please: confirm that you would have sacked Kendall and Ferguson in identical circumstances other than now having the benefit of hindsight and no, circumstances weren't different.

The concept of sacking Koeman now is total lunacy unless Darren is helping pay for his contract termination. There will be a time when Koeman will go and it will be by decision of people who run the club and who understand the business.

Darren, we know what your opinion is, most would agree with many of the points raised but tbh it is like a cracked record. Do you ever have positive ideas?

John G Davies
118 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:39:53
"While some of them are bleating about Goodison having the most toxic atmosphere in the country"

I'd love to find that link.

Anthony Jones
119 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:43:05
It's not much fun waiting, but give Moshiri the benefit of the doubt. If things don't pick up it won't be too long before a new coach is brought in.
Brent Stephens
120 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:44:57
Martin, I don't think sacking Koeman now is necessarily lunacy. We have had a difficult fixture list to the start of the season. We have a number of players who arguably need to time to settle into the Premier League and to gel as a team. But the sheer consistency (obstinacy) of tactics during a transition period sends alarm signals. If his tactics are poo now, why should we expect them to improve in the future?

To sack or not to sack shouldn't be decided in this case on what it would cost us financially. We need also to consider the risks in this downward spiral continuing, and how and how soon we pull out of this spiral. The risks of sticking with Koeman are now massive. I feel the ground is coming up fast as we spiral down.

Will Mabon
121 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:54:20
Mike, there are many ways to be. Some are optimistic, some pessimistic, some very direct, some more diplomatic. Meanwhile, the reality plays out irrespective.

As much as there have been people calling forcefully against Koeman, there have been many jumping down their throats with no more of an argument than to accuse such posters of being "Negative". Granted, there aren't many around right now.

Of course you're aware of the problems now. Others saw the signs rather earlier that some, that Koeman was not all we might have expected following the fanfare, and were prepared to say it regardless of the backlash.

I don't need to list the list of concerns over the most part of Koeman's tenure. It's all come home to roost. Thing is, if he were to "Turn it around", however that would be measured, who can have any belief in him for the future? Based on what?

I just posted on another thread. If it turns out to be true, there are rumours regarding the future of Lookman. A player that Koeman himself bought only nine months ago, who has played less than 11 games. Not unproven - not even tested. One of "his" players. If it's a rumour, why is there even a rumour like that?

By all means dislike peoples' manner but look at the situation. It seems hysterical overreaction is winning out over reason and balance this time. Next time, it might be reversed. For now, the real concern is Koeman.

Mike Allison
122 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:57:48
Brent,

"Those who saw the writing on the wall are having to wait for the patient to run out of patience, For the desperate to be right to accept they are wrong and for the happy clappers to stop clapping. It's a tortuous process, but it's one we had to go through with Martinez and its one we are having to go through now."

I stand by what I've said about Darren. Last season was 'decent', 'reasonable', perhaps one might say 'satisfactory'. In May, we all had good reason to believe the summer spending and Koeman making the team his own would bring the required improvements. (It actually still might, I agree with much of what Jim says at 115, when mitigating his belief that Koeman should go).

Darren is claiming that, at a time when it was reasonable to be positive about and supportive of Koeman, his prescience and general superiority allowed him to see something as 'obvious' that no-one else could see. I call "bullshit".

Now that we're playing badly, he wants us all to 'admit' that he was right all along. Stopped clock, twice a day.

Note that my post isn't a grass-skirted, kite-flying defence of Koeman, it's simply a calling out of a poster who is claiming something that isn't true. Stopped clock, twice a day.

Geoff Evans
123 Posted 30/09/2017 at 10:58:14
I think Koeman will be sacked if Everton lose on Sunday.
Andrew Clare
124 Posted 30/09/2017 at 11:13:03
In midweek we drew with a team that cost £23,000 and their manager who is probably earning a pittance compared to Koeman. He got his tactics and team selection right. He had his players motivated. He was unlucky that his team conceded a soft goal.

For nearly the whole game we looked a total shambles. If we were showing signs of good football and attacking intent in every game then I would be hopeful but all I see is a manager who can't even select the right team in the right formation.

We all watch football and we can see who is playing well and what system works best yet our manager persists with a set system that doesn't work and selecting players who play out of position.

How much time does he need to get it right?

Brent Stephens
125 Posted 30/09/2017 at 11:15:02
Mike - I was actually acknowledging the point you were making in #114 about superior foresight and all that.
Mike Allison
126 Posted 30/09/2017 at 11:49:34
Sorry Brent, I must have misunderstood your point. Judging from other reactions to Darren's post at (#108), I was expecting more flak.

Will, my point is that what you call 'the signs' were seen by everyone, not just the prescient superiors like Darren. Most people, as was reasonable, weighed them up against positive signs and came to a generally positive conclusion, albeit with much to prove.

We all saw the weak away performances, reliance on Lukaku etc. But we also saw the imperious home record and comfortable superiority over 13 of the teams in the Premier League. I won't list everything, it's done elsewhere.

Darren is claiming that he was right to ignore all good things and focus only on negative things rather than make a balanced judgement by taking everything into account. He wasn't.

Results-wise this season went properly wrong at home against Tottenham, up until then, things were 'decent', 'reasonable' and 'satisfactory', albeit with much to prove.

Performances may be another matter, but as Jim says above, a rash of new signings almost inevitable means a team that doesn't gel particularly well.

The key criticism of Koeman at the moment should be the lack of belief and spirit about the players since they lost four games. There's no way Darren knew about that before anyone else.

Ray Robinson
127 Posted 30/09/2017 at 11:52:45
Darren (#108), it's never been your message per se that I have objected too; it's always been the timing and manner of its delivery. I guess it's my personal preference but I react more favourably to Lyndon's more timely and measured approach. Having said that, I am now in the "We need to do something about Koeman camp". You were obviously there way before me.

My big bugbear has always been that people who haven't been as accelerated (premature?) in their judgment have always been labelled by you as "happy clappers" and acceptors or embracers of mediocrity (I actually don't know anyone who has embraced mediocrity, so that distinction flies over my head somewhat.) Perhaps those that have been more accepting until now have just been more measured?

Anyway, my point is that, it's no good just constantly whingeing on ToffeeeWeb – it doesn't achieve anything. If I had felt as strongly as you obviously do, I might have tried to do something about it. No, I'm not seriously advocating organising a flypast but I am saying that I might have considered at the very least boycotting matches.

There again, perhaps you already do? If you continue to attend then surely you are "accepting mediocrity" as much as the rest of us?

Ray Robinson
128 Posted 30/09/2017 at 11:55:40
Mike, I totally agree with you in your very eloquent posts. I suspect we may be in the minority on here now!
Steve Ferns
129 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:11:53
The current position brings up the question once more of standards. Koeman is doing crap, but according to what standards? Martinez did shit, worst manager ever and all that, but again compared to what? Moyes was holding us back, but again compared to what?

We cannot hold the club to 3 golden years in the mid-80s when football was very different to what it is now. Koeman is being judged on where we were last season, plus the hopes (not expectations) we had for this summer built up by spending £140m.

There is a pattern re-emerging right now similar to with Martinez and with what bubbled under the surface at time with Moyes, but never really came to full fruition. There's a lot of anger, a lot of fury and it's over spilling from the terraces onto the pitch.

Goodison is a very intimidating place to play. Most Premier League players say this. Most journos list it as the most intimidating ground. But it also goes the other way. It must be difficult to play here as an Everton player right now. There were times in the Apollon game when we were knocking it around nicely, you know the boring football stuff everyone despises so much, but as there was a lack of options forwards, the players would sensibly knock it back and play a triangle. What was happening was that the player receiving the ball had no time on it, or lacked the confidence to try it, so they would knock it back and get it back, this time in a position to be facing the goal and to play a positive pass. The problem that was frequently happening was that the anger from the crowd at the ball going back was affecting the players. This was only the first half (for sure as I was sat in the Park End), it was 1-1 and we had almost an hour to find the one goal we needed to get all three points, yet the crowd was berating the players for negativity like it was the last kick of the game.

Some fans seem to think that some of the players can waltz through a tight pack of 4 or 5 defenders, and shoot, or can pass through players, or can find an angle to shoot through players.

Appollon defended magnificently, at times, like their lives depended on it. They grew in confidence from that first soft goal and they were patient and resolute. This was like their cup final, they won a point and it was a great day out for them all, I'm sure.

My point here, though, is that a lot of what is going wrong comes from the fans. I have seen comments from Koeman in the last few games now:

"Pressure to win games"; "There's a lot of expectation and we're fighting against that";"We know what the fans like, that you can go forwards"

Those of you going the game, when is the last time you heard us sing "For it's a grand old team"? Sure after we took the lead against Bournemouth, but in games where we are not leading, I think it was Stoke. We have not been helping the team at all. There is very much a toxic atmosphere in Goodison at present.

Before, you lumber me in the Koeman In camp, I actually want him gone, I think that we need to carefully consider all the factors at play, and if you forget your own prejudices, I think it's fair that he be given time and the team be given total support. The board is very unlikely to sack him unless we remain in the bottom half, and well adrift of the top 6, and out of the Europa League, come Christmas.

Steve Ferns
130 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:17:08
Ray, I would say the key criticism of Koeman at the moment is the lack of pace and width. Also read Koeman's comments. He is critical of his team and players. He talks about passing back, he talks about lack of passion and belief. However, he never talks about a lack of pace, and he never talks about a lack of width.

Why is that? Because it is not important to him. He's designed the team that way, and in line with Koeman never criticising himself, he would not highlight the tactical decision he got wrong in the transfer market.

Which is yet another example of how he is in control of the transfers. He may bemoan the failure of the club to secure Giroud, and think that he did everything possible to get Giroud in, and that the failure to actually sign him was down to Walsh and the board. He has mentioned a lack of striker on a couple of occasions. But note never anything about the wings.

Brent Stephens
131 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:18:38
Mike #126 - no probs.

John G Davies
132 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:22:25
Can't find that statement regarding "Goodison having the most toxic atmosphere in the country" in your post anywhere Darren. Who said it?
Ray Robinson
133 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:26:06
Steve (#130), I don't think your comments were meant for me, were they?
Steve Ferns
134 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:28:22
No just the key criticism sentence.
Steve Ferns
135 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:32:09
Wait, it was Mike who said it!
Soren Moyer
136 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:40:52
#108 Darren Hind , well said.
Clive Lewis
137 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:45:37
No, it's not when you earn £6 million a year. However, to us it is doom and gloom.

This is worse than any manager that Everton have had, due to the fact that he is paid a Champions League salary.

Not buying a striker is a sackable offence. Especially when they are available. Son from Spurs would be a good buy.

Will Mabon
138 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:52:13
Mike @ 126, I guess it all comes down to outlook again; optimist or pessimist.

I don't know there was any prescience being claimed as such, rather an early reaction to signs that were there and are continually being reinforced. Nothing is perfect in football, but a manager that shows a dictatorial gruff manner early on and goes after players publicly, is rather a rarity and not ideal.

I'll give my own moment for what it's worth. I raised an eyebrow quite early on. Contrary to what some have remembered recently, we didn't have a poor start to last season. After a "Battling" starting draw against Spurs, we won five consecutive games and were almost top of the league.

Then came the Norwich game with the "clever" changes to the team. The worst thing to do with a team with newly-found momentum needing to turn things around, and unnecessary. A terrible performance. Then that was it – two more wins until the new year, 14 games.

Along came the trouble. Woeful, surrendering games with no team spirit, no fire, no clue. It looked like a completely different team. Players went flat.

Then he chose Barkley as his deflector. On it went, not recovering to any degree for three and a half months. That's a long time for a team that won five out of six from day one of the season.

Something was wrong I suspected, and I suspected Koeman. Prescience? No. Evidence? Not really, not fully. Some, and a feeling. Did I post it? No, the reaction wasn't worth the inevitable emotive response, and back-and-to of long posts like this, that I usually make in moderation.

I posted doubts later, gradually and more subtly than some. I'm not subtle now. Some that have been posting forcefully for longer, have been flamed from many sides, so I disagree that the signs were seen by everyone. Defences such as time, not gelled, not his players, existing players crap, ghost of Martinez.

Truth is we are where we are, now everyone's aware, and Koeman mostly carries the can. Belligerent or balanced, which is better? Some called it, some didn't. Does it matter on a forum of words between people that will rarely or never meet... probably not.

I never want my/our team to lose, but I absolutely dread Koeman getting out of jail. It will end in tears if he stays around – not if, when.

Tony Hill
139 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:53:08
In fact, last season after a good start, we were very poor indeed up to and very much including the Watford game away which was one of the worst Everton performances I have seen in recent times. Koeman recovered the team after that – though both cup competitions had been exited at the very earliest stages – until we were secure in 7th.

At one point, we were in a position to challenge for a higher, possibly significantly higher, position, and then we went to Tottenham when Koeman produced a quite bizarre selection to deprive us of any width and threat at all. That was the most telling game as far as I am concerned because it showed that the manager lacked boldness and it has formed the template for much of what has happened since.

It's surely not a matter of anybody being more perceptive than anyone else – that would be an embarrassing claim on here since most, if not all, of us love football and have enthusiasts' knowledge.

I don't think anybody wants Koeman to fail and, even though I think we should get rid of him, it would be great to see him recover things once more and develop us into the fine side which, even in this darkness, I can see emerging. He has nothing to lose now by taking risks and fighting back; I hope that proves to be his and our salvation.

Jay Woods
140 Posted 30/09/2017 at 12:57:47
You know how we are now "super rich" yet sold our star striker to a rival in our own league, no less?

And you are also well aware that Southampton and Arsenal refused to do the same, despite immense pressure from the respective players and the preying clubs?

Now, what does that tell you about how the board at EFC truly views the club's aspirations?

For me, they couldn't make it any clearer if they erected huge fluorescent lights on the roof of Goodison, saying, "We are a selling club".

The demands at Man Utd are maximum whereas the demands at Everton seem to be "hold her steady".

Steve Ferns
141 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:03:35
Jay, you can't compare us to Man Utd, they have far more fans than us and that has always been the case. The have far more money that us. They have an income we can only dream of. They having everything we want. There is nothing at our club, that affects the team, that we can say is an equivalent or better than them.

The only thing you could say is the youth academies, but their setup is by far the better, we just defy the odds to continue producing top players, like Barkley and Davies. But then are they really better than Lingaard and Rashford?

Will Mabon
142 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:05:43
"Pressure to win games"
"There's a lot of expectation and we're fighting against that"
"We know what the fans like, that you can go forwards"


Steve, I know you know your football, and you say you prefer Koeman to leave. Those quotes above however, are meaningless in this context. That's simply Koeman in deflect mode. It is in no way any fault of fans and supporters, whatever their reaction. Their reaction is to the result of Koeman's "Work".

Anyway, the second Koeman perceives a good atmosphere will be his cue to take off a winger and bring on another number 10.

Will Mabon
143 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:15:01
Tony, you're right. There were many signs even when we were playing better generally. Absolutely indicative of an over careful and unimaginative manager. Should he somehow pull through the coming weeks, we've already seen all we'll ever see from him IMO. He said as much himself with his "How we normally play" statement.
Allan Board
144 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:16:17
The debate rumbles on, the anger increases, the players continue to perform badly and look a million miles from being a team. Welcome to football 2017.

However, has it really ever been any different for Everton and it's long suffering, loyal and fabulous fans since about 1997?

There is however ,one common factor since then, I don't need to name him-the"top man", the "head honcho", the "over dramatic one".

He's had 20+ years and nothing won. When is he going to be made culpable?

If Moshiri is the real deal, then he will get rid of the old guard in the posh seats and bring his own people in.

Everton need transparency at board level first,because at the minute it allows them to hide behind each other and use the "smoke and mirrors" on the fans.

Sack as many managers as you like, hire whoever you like and call the players all the names under the sun, but if you're getting stiffed from above (boardroom) then nothing will ever change.

Such a shame as it is "A Grand Old Team To Support"

Darren Hind
145 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:21:41
A few replies .

John G @118

Look on the current threads to get the answer to your question. Its not difficult to find.

Brent @116

Oh yes, I was calling for Koeman to be removed for most of last season. I stated often enough that this Leopard will not change his spots,but then you know this. You came on often enough whinge about my posts.

Martin Mason

Let's just list the positive things I post on here which you clearly choose to ignore. I come on here confident of winning every game. When I post on a pre match thread, it is always to say I fancy us to win. You won't even find me accepting a draw. When our past glories are recounted, I'm always in there with a dewy-eyed nostalgia. When it comes to giving our youngsters a chance. I always champion their cause.

I'm a huge believer in the positivity of youth. When people are successful at out club I go to great lengths to praise them. My praise for Unsworth and his team has been as forthcoming as anybody else on this site. I suspect they would beat our first team 5 times out of 10.

I am really excited about the prospect of my club taking up residence on the banks of the river.... Actually I could go on and on. to blow your latest foolish argument out of the window.

Because I constantly refute the apologism offered up regularly on this site by people like you, doesn't make me negative. Nor does my constant berating of Koeman and his signings. It just means I am balanced. I'm positive about the good things and I scream the fucking house down about the bad.

Mike Allison

Nowhere do I claim to have superior foresight. I simply have this thing about the blindingly obvious smacking me between the fucking eyes. You say you were optimistic about Koeman. Well I'm sorry, that was just you nailing your colours to what many people saw as a very rotten mast. Do I believe those who voiced their disapproval of our play and their belief that it wouldn't change had a superior foresight to you? Absolutely I do.

Will Mabon
146 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:24:13
Thing is, we could have paid Lukaku more money, and tried to improve Barkley, and just made a couple or handful of quality needed signings. I don't know whether Lukaku would have stayed, but did we try that? I doubt it, since the offer is widely quoted as £140k per week.

If we'd done that, and built the team that way, and kept a positive team spirit with harmony, and kept refining, what might we have done then? "Easy" games or not, I think those five consecutive wins early last season provide an indication... and the fact that we eventually finished seventh. We could certainly have afforded that.

Ben Dyke
147 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:24:31
I actually feel more positive about things because of the last match. Of course I care deeply about the result more than anything but I did see signs of something. I'm just praying it falls together into a complete performance against some team soon!
Brent Stephens
148 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:46:44
Darren, as usual, you missed the point. I posted "I don't recall anybody in the early months of last season being anything but at least cautiously hopeful - Darren included".

In the first few months you were cautiously hopeful. That was my point.

Steve Ferns
149 Posted 30/09/2017 at 13:48:19
Yeah Will, Koeman is the only manager I have ever called for to be sacked and that was after the Watford game.

I have been saying on here for ages now how he wants to play a narrow high pressing game. We are certainly playing narrowly. But we are too slow to press effectively, and we don't do it en masse. Another major failure is we don't do the "high" part, we sit far too deep.

I have never really liked Koeman. I never wanted him. I wanted De Boer! I saw him as a more pragmatic version of Martinez, who could take Martinez's side and find the best of it, and get us back to what we were in 2013-14.

Koeman has just dismantled that side, and that infuriates me. I also liked the fact that we had the most settled side in the league. decent players came to Everton and stayed 10 years. Only the very best or the ones not good enough left. But Koeman ripped that apart. and for me he destroyed the soul of the team (not the club).

I don't like his football. I don't like narrow teams. My all time favourite player is Anders Limpar, which probably shows you my age. I love a winger, and someone who can pass the ball.

I have accepted the death of 4-4-2 and the subsequent demise of the winger and the rise of the "inside forward", but with the likes of Messi showing just how exciting these players can be, I have fully embraced them. Koeman has fashioned a team where there's no skill or trickery, no one beats a man in this side, there's no clever passing, all our best stuff is a ball over the top and a tap in, or a good shot.

Then there is the man. I have grown up with Kendall, Harvey, and Walker and then on to Royle, Smith, Moyes and Martinez. Of these guys, only Walter Smith will not have the prefix "former Everton manager". It is their biggest job, and they were all men who really did live for football. All of them embraced the club and lived it and breathed it. they all worked 12-hour days.

Then in comes Koeman, Mr 8am to 4pm. He makes it clear what he thinks of the job by always talking about "Everton" and never "we". He also makes it clear that he has one ambition left and that is to manage Barcelona. But don't worry Everton fans, he will honour his contract! At £6m a year, I should bloody hope so!

Koeman insisted on a Director of Football because he wanted to offload a lot of the leg work that the Everton manager had to do. I think that part was fair comment. The job needed modernising. Moyes was very much an old-school hands-on manager in the Alex Ferguson mould.

Then there is the off the camera stuff. The hospital visits and the charity work. Moyes was leaving as the club went up the gears here, but he more than did his part. Martinez though embraced it. He attended all the charity functions and was a great ambassador for the club.

Then there is the on-the-sidelines persona. I will never shift the image of Koeman leaning against a post, like he's waiting for a bus, whilst Mazzarri is going wild on the touchline. Only, it's Mazzarri winning and Koeman losing. sure, this is cosmetic, and more for us fans, but it adds to the whole thing of Koeman just does not care about the club.

I remember when Martinez was appointed and it emerged that he had got the club to put up pictures of the greats all over the place. He had spent a few days reading our history and learning about the past and sucking it all up. I bet Koeman wouldn't be able to tell you what we have won.

Now this is again cosmetic. I felt at the time that this was the manager trying to channel the success of the past to try to show the players that this is a winning club. However, Lukaku has since commented that we were a club stuck in the past and he didn't give a shit about all these pictures of players on the wall from before he was born. So, it clearly means nothing to players anyway.

Koeman will be gone soon enough. If not this year, then in 2020. He won't see a new stadium for sure. I would like the club to carefully select a new manager. Sure, in an ideal world, we give Unsy a go and he brings through a load of kids and we take off towards success.

The reality is, we need a big name, or someone the players from abroad know. We also need someone with a premier league pedigree. But I think we need a new manager who tap into the club's philosophies. so what are they?

1. Hard-working – the fans want maximum effort from at least 10 of the players. Sure we can forgive the star winger walking around the pitch and not getting back, but only if it is a top class player.

2. Tough-tackling – there's little to get the Everton fans going, except for a goal. In the most dour of matches, a full-blooded challenge, really smashing into someone gets us off the edge of our seats and behind the team.

3. Crossing – the fans want the ball whipped in and headed goals.

4. Youth – accept it or not, Liverpool is the best area in the country for football talent, and good facilities or not (we all remember Netherton) we will produce players (Ball, Dunne, Rooney, Osman, Jeffers, etc). We need a manager committed to bringing one or two through a season, and if there isn't one, use recruitment to bring them in like Stones, Holgate and Calvert-Lewin.

5. Passing forwards – I think one of Martinez' biggest failures was that his tiki-taka football was at odds with what we wanted to see. So once it stopped working, the fans wanted him to morph into Sam Allardyce and start pumping the ball long. It was never going to happen.

So we need to learn lessons and appoint a manager who is not adverse to such tactics and can play that way when the going is tough. Of course, this requires a big Number 9.

For the next manager, I think we should be talking to Marco Silva and watching him carefully to see if he can fulfil the above. We need to make sure he wasn't a 10-game wonder with hull (and he ultimately failed) and if he can keep it up with Watford.

I also want a manager who can coach. Pep Guardiola achieves most of his success from his ability to coach players. All his chosen players rave about his coaching, how they never stop learning, and how he makes them a better player. You never hear that off Koeman's players. You did from Moyes, but that was more about defence. We need a manager who has a plan, and a Plan B and can coach his players to play that way.

Watch the awesome coaching videos on Bielsa and see how he coaches his players to make "instinctive runs". There's nothing instinctive in football. It's all about repetition on the coaching pitch. I love watching the snippets of the coaching in pre-season to try to work out what we are actually doing, but there's not enough of it.

Mike Allison
150 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:06:25
Darren, at what point are you claiming it was blindingly obvious?

Last season we had a run of 8 consecutive home league games which we won, scoring 29 goals in the process. We were head and shoulders above 13 of the other 19 teams in the league, and beat some of those above us.

I think I've quoted exactly where you're claiming superior foresight, and my point is that anyone claiming they could tell Koeman was no good last season whilst we were putting together one of the strongest runs of home form in Premier League history cannot possibly have been holding a reasonable position.

There were positives and negatives last season, I think we could all see both, but you choose to fixate on the negatives. Now that the negatives are outweighing the positives you're claiming that this was blindingly obvious all along.

I'd be interested to know what your emotions about Koeman were at 5pm on 15th April. Was it blindingly obvious then?

Ray Robinson
151 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:11:24
And in renewing your season ticket, Darren, weren't you "accepting mediocrity"?
Steve Ferns
152 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:12:24
I agree with you Mike. Koeman looked terrible to me in the first bad run last season, but everything that followed afterwards won me round.

I was particularly excited that he seemed to find a place for Barkley, on the right of a front three. I thought Ross looked excellent there and was coming back to his best. I hoped we retained Lukaku, or we found someone just as good to replace him.

Then the players started flying in. Still I expected a marque signing, a world class striker, or at least a Giroud. It was only after Sigurdsson signed and it was obvious no one was coming that the optimism eroded a little.

The season started slowly and was simmering to the boil with the lethargic European and Stoke wins. However, it seemed that with Rooney's troubles, the season turned and we didn't just lose the games we were expected to, we were getting destroyed. Particularly by a second rate Atalanta side. Only then was it glaringly obvious.

Will Mabon
153 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:13:25
Interesting, Steve. As you allude, we are not even playing the way Koeman pushed early on, pressing... where did that go?

I agree with your numbered points there. All of it starts from the spirit of the team in my opinion, that's first, even in the very technical way that football is trained and managed nowadays.

The coaching has a lot more influence now, on where people are on the pitch, how and when they move, most aspects. I imagine they are a lot more aware of instruction and what they're doing minute-to-minute than ever before. The effect of this can be far reaching if spirits are low in a bad period. I also don't buy the Koeman lines not passing forward and after the whistle...

Remember the start of the Moyes era, when he used to come out for the warm up with the players? Stretches and little sprints across the pitch. It all adds to the team. We can't expect everyone to be the same, but Koeman appears the antithesis of that kind of thinking.

Dave Abrahams
154 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:19:38
Will (146), you say you honestly don't know if Lukaku would have stayed if we had done more to keep him here, for one, offering him more money.

Will, he changed his agent, in one move to get away from Everton, he repeatedly said he wanted Champions League football, he never made any bones about his desire to move.

None of us know but I firmly believe if we had finished 4th last season and offered a much bigger pay rise to Lukaku, he would still have been on his bike, and I bet, deep down, you believe that yourself.

Steve Ferns
155 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:22:53
Yes Will. I liked a lot of what I saw from Erwin on the Everton show. It was peddled that they are a double act. Ronald is warm and aloof. He is hands off. He lives in Manchester. Erwin is smiley and warm, he is hands on, and he lives in Liverpool. Recently, I have seen less and less of Erwin, is there some trouble there?
John G Davies
156 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:30:11
Darren.

I've looked. Can you send a link?
Are you sure it's there.

Dave Abrahams
157 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:39:26
Steve (152), re your first paragraph, how did he (Koeman) win you round with the away performances?They were mostly dismal and that was with Lukaku and Barkley in the side.

My grandson, 21, never seen Everton win a sausage, nevertheless a fanatic Blue, will not go to any more Everton away games until Koeman goes or at least changes his tactics, this is a lad who went to Split without a ticket and finished up watching them from the top of a building, in another very poor performance.

I started the season more than hopeful, very confident that we would be playing more attractive football. That has ebbed away with each passing game, can see the changes that would improve us but, sadly I can't ever see Koeman making those changes.

Stephen Davies
158 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:43:49
Steve (#149), Marco Silva is a very good shout. He appears to be a great man manager and the players like him and play for him.

He's young and likes his teams to play good football... keep an eye on Watford's results they currently have a great away record.

Steve Ferns
159 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:45:42
1 defeat in 12 games, from the derby to the derby. Results had improved, performances had improved. There was optimism that he would buy some quality players, and Ross was returning to form. Those were the reasons.

He never won me round to be a "fan" of his though. And I was very, very frustrated when we signed Sigurdsson. I had a few arguments on here, can't remember if it was with you or not, about signing the guy. I felt he was a waste of £45M when it was better to keep Barkley and sign a striker.

I would like to see a poll of Koeman v Barkley, one to stay and one to go. I bet Ronald would have little support right now.

Jay Woods
160 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:52:04
Steve Ferns, I hope your reply to me @ 141 was tongue-in-cheek.

Where we are and where Man Utd are in terms of overall greatness at this very moment is not the point. The point is that we are supposed to share the same aspirations as them, given that:

1. We used to be an elite club ourselves;

2. Everton is meant to be the plaything of an ambitious billionaire owner, you know, the way Man City and Chelsea are.

Fanbase and wider club economic and footballing infrastructure are incidental to the ostensible aims of the club's chief custodian. Or so the story goes.

Paul Holmes
161 Posted 30/09/2017 at 14:52:26
Just watched the Guardiola interview with Lineker on the BBC, and Guardiola says "It is the quality of the players not the manager which is the biggest factor in winning football matches." So there you have it from one of the best managers in world football.

Maybe we have to start looking at why Ashley Williams keeps passing to the opposition and why Calvert-Lewin can't score an easy header from a couple of yards out, instead of berating Koeman all the time.

Mike Allison
162 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:07:12
A lot of sense being talked on here now.

Steve I've just read your #149 in full. I think you're absolutely right with your five numbered points. We should nail them up at the training ground.

I also agree with you about making players better. Barkley not good enough at something? Teach him! That's your job. Luke Garbutt too weak as a defender to be played? So coach him! He has immense talent going forward, it can't be that hard to coach come nous and positioning into him.

If it's the players fault and he refuses to learn, he should have been shipped out. He hasn't been, so why isn't he getting better?

Steve Ferns
163 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:08:29
We are not the plaything of an ambitious Billionaire owner though.

Man City and Chelsea are being used for slightly different reasons but what effectively boils down to "reputation laundering".

Chelsea's owner is a penniless man who acquired what is now Gazprom at the end of the Soviet Union. Google will show you theories on the dubious methods he used to acquire it. But he is seen by many in Russian to have stolen it. Then he moved here, bought Chelsea, and used Chelsea to get him into business rooms he would never have been given entry to. He has made more money back through becoming a legitimate business owner than he has spent on the club. So, no it is not really his plaything, it was a way for him to make money indirectly.

Man City are owned by the UAE ruling family. They are based in Abu Dhabi. Now they are either trying to build up a portfolio of companies and land to maintain their wealth when the oil runs out, or they are also using Man City to legitimise themselves and to make business deals that they couldn't make before. They have also been able to deflect the horrors of human rights atrocities away from the UAE and give positive publicity to the region. Again google them and you'll see plenty of scathing articles and videos on just what they are up to.

They now appear to be in phase 3 of their Man City project and this is making them a global brand with many different football clubs across the world. City Group just sold a stake to a Chinese Government Investment group which values the parent company at 3 billion dollars, so suddenly the money thrown into the football black hole doesn't seem to be so much thrown away. Oh and look, they now own a sizeable chunk of Manchester with little questions asked.

Moshiri isn't in these guys leagues. As I said before, he wants to deliver a new stadium and Champions League football. He can then sell us for a profit. Also consider his age. He is much older than the owners of the other two clubs. He's at retirement age (62) and so his personal project is surely shorter term. Which fits in with new stadium by 2020 and sell up.

I would hope though, that Moshiri can continue to overhaul the top end of the club and bring in "go-getters" to make Everton make inroads into the Premier League Commercial Markets. I say continue because I think he is doing this, and Angry Birds is a step in the right direction. It's very much in his interest to increase income as that will be a chief factor in the club value when he sells in 5 years or so.

Dave Abrahams
164 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:08:40
Steve (#159), you swerved a few away games, some very poor ones which we drew but had the ability to win, with a more attacking manager.

Koeman versus Barkley in a poll? Steve I don't think Koeman would win if it was versus Bin Ladin!!!!!

Steve Ferns
165 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:09:40
Haha, It's one Poll that even Mrs May could win.
Jay Woods
166 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:11:22
Steve Ferns, you have entirely too much time on your hands.

But thanks for clarifying that Moshiri's aims are 4th place every season.

Still, hard to see how we can manage that even in the interim if we sell out best striker to another club in the same league.

Darren Hind
167 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:13:21
A few more responses:

Mike Allison,

From the off, I saw through – and I mean quite literally from the off, I knew he was a Kellie Maloney. I hated all this fawning over his every utterance. I hated this "straight talking Ron, telling it like it is" bollocks. He was regularly speaking pure shite... and I came on here regularly to say so.

I hated the cowardly tactics away from home so much, that I decided to stop going. I called for Koeman to be removed last season when we bowed out of both cups with a whimper. Some of the apologists tried to shout that down with a ridiculous claim that I was a "minority of one".

I will admit to being taken completely by surprise at the world class form Lukaku showed but, like so many others. I knew his goals were masking Koeman's half-witted tactics... and I said so.

That you were blinded by some very flattering score lines is clearly evident by your response. Many others were not. Does that make them better judges than you? Yes, I believe it does.

Ray Robinson,

It's worse than you think. I didn't give my season ticket up because it was a fantastic spec, next to my two lads, and my eldest grandson was desperate to join them. So I promised him I would renew it and he could use it.

John G,

Na...

John G Davies
168 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:19:39
Thanks Darren.

I thought it may have been yet another made up one from you.
That confirms it.

Mike Allison
169 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:21:53
So you just didn't like him from the off and would have slagged him off no matter what. Glad we've cleared that up.
Steve Ferns
170 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:24:20
I prefer to call it procrastination Jay.
Ray Robinson
171 Posted 30/09/2017 at 15:29:48
Thanks for the reply Darren. You could always put a brown bag over your head when watching! Don't use a plastic one please!
George Cumiskey
172 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:02:07
Martin Mason, A couple of interesting posts have been put on this thread by you.

So, by your reckoning Bayern Munich must be a bunch of lunatics and commercial idiots for sacking Ancelotti so early in the season.

So, if Koeman was sacked now, that's what the Everton board would be. Very strange comment.

Will Mabon
173 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:08:20
"Maybe we have to start looking at why Ashley Williams keeps passing to the opposition and why Calvert-Lewin can't score an easy header from a couple of yards out, instead of berating Koeman all the time. "


I've got it... how about, it was Koeman's fault for buying them, then? That works. Plus, he's made them worse with his crappy coaching. Any good to ya?

Grant Rorrison
174 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:18:45
Will 173. Well he did sign Williams, who is a shocking player. His pass the other night is hardly a new thing or a one off.

The header by Calvert-Lewin was hopefully one of those things.

Brent Stephens
175 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:18:54
Darren #167 "A few more responses".

Ah, but one swerved I see! As usual.

Mike Allison
176 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:19:56
Calvert-Lewin didn't do much wrong, it's harsh to include him. However, there may be a wider point to be made.

Most, if not all, of our players are playing below their potential. I don't think we've signed any bad players, but they're not playing as well as they can.

Brent Stephens
177 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:22:23
Darren "From the off I saw through Koeman and I mean quite literally".

Wow, x-ray vision as well as able to tell the future.

Jim Jennings
178 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:32:26
It sounds a lot like the Hind boys hatched a very clever plan to avoid having to listen to their miserable bastard of an old man beside them at the game.
Darren Hind
179 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:32:38
"Wow, x-ray vision as well as able to tell the future"

Or ... in non apologist speak, The unfortunate habit of not being able to blind myself to what is staring me in the fucking face.

BTW; I don't swerve questions. I leave that to those who can't back up what they say

Paul Holmes
180 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:42:47
You can't blame Koeman if the captain of Wales passes to the opposition and they score. Why is he the captain of Wales that got to the semi-final of the Euros if he is that bad?

Calvert-Lewin scored the goal that won the U20 World Cup, but he missed a sitter from a few yards out that would have won us the game on Thursday, how is that Koeman's fault?

The players keep passing the ball back and you can see Koeman telling them to pass forward, yet again how is that the managers fault?

The players have to take the blame because Guardiola is right, if Messi played for Everton it would not matter who was the manager, Koeman, Martinez, Moyes because Messi being a quality player would make any manager look good! We have some quality players in Rooney, Sigurdsson and Coleman but the rest are a work in progress imo.

Dermot Byrne
181 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:55:43
So popped into TW and suprise suprise. Guess who is in a spat again.
Brent Stephens
182 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:56:16
Darren (#179), "BTW; I don't swerve questions. I leave that to those who cant back up what they say."

OK, try this...

Darren (#167) above: "from the off I saw through Koeman". No qualification at all there; baldly stated; just obvious to you wasn't it.

And yet Darren September 2016: "I'm cautiously hopeful about Koeman".

Outright "seeing through him" from the off? Hardly.

John G Davies
183 Posted 30/09/2017 at 16:58:17
"I don't swerve questions"

Great.
Who posted "Goodison is the most toxic ground in the country"?

Terry Underwood
184 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:16:59
Sorry boss, but it is as bad as it seems. The tables don't lie, results are in the book and cannot be changed. The club has spent a fortune to convert a team of also ran's into a team of bottom feeders.

Not having a top striker lined up to replace one that everybody knew was leaving is unforgivable. Calvert-Lewin is learning and is not the answer. I despair at the Mr Micawber attitude.

Darren Hind
185 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:17:24
Brent Stephens,

I know you like to spend hours trawling through my posts. Not the first time you've troubled yourself to go back a year. And you did give away your not very cunning little, err... trap in post 148.

I stand by both statements its fair to say I saw through his bullshit from the off, but it was also fair to be cautiously hopeful that he may deliver after a few games – not a few months as you are falsely claiming... nice try.

John G

I'll set you on the trail; Go to the late leveller by Limassol thread. Go to post 267 then follow the clues. its been said more than once. Not every post is directed at you...

You guys need to understand that people don't have to answer all your questions... there is a difference between swerving a question and deeming one not worthy of response.

Will Mabon
186 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:19:40
That says it Mike - below potential. It could be much better than this with what we already have.

Thought I had a handle on what was causing it but it seems Guardiola has spoken forth for us... the players are the biggest factor. Best get buying, then.

I bet he's never said that in an interview.

Brent Stephens
187 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:20:14
Darren: "It was also fair to be cautiously hopeful that he may deliver after a few games – not a few months as you are falsely claiming."

Your post was 12th Sept.

Darren Hind
188 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:20:50
And the season started when???

John G Davies
189 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:27:39
Thanks Darren, will have a look now.

"Not every post is directed at you"?
You've lost me there.

Brent Stephens
190 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:28:59
11 games into the season, all told. Took your time, Darren. And don't give us "yeh, but some of those weren't Premier League games". You give it out to Koeman regardless of what competition it is. So don't try that one.

11 games starting in the July, and in September you still said you were cautiously hopeful.

Saw through him from the off??

Darren Hind
191 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:37:57
Shortly after Koeman signed on he went on a lengthy holiday. The season started on 13th August – Spurs.

We'd played four games, three Premier League and one League Cup before Sept 12th

Dermot Byrne
192 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:38:49
"...and deeming one not worthy of response,". Classy.
George Cumiskey
193 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:47:18
A reporter in the Daily Mirror said the other day, Everton have done the seemingly impossible. By spending £140 million and actually going backwards.

So it's not only the fans that can see what's happening.

Brent Stephens
194 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:47:51
You posted immediately prior to the September Sunderland game that you were still cautiously hopeful.

We then won that Sunderland game. Did you post that you saw through him straight after the Sunderland result?

We then won that Boro game. Did you post that you saw through him straight after the Boro result?

So you didn't see through him from the off.

Darren Hind
195 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:52:31
Your nonsensical question, exposed. Your false claim about it being months as opposed to it being a few games, exposed. And your foolish attempt to try to claim it was after 11 games, exposed.

This isn't a debate, its an interrogation and the interrogator is not very good at his job.

I'm out of here. I`ll be back when some interesting debate is going on.

Brent Stephens
196 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:54:45
You didn't see through him from the off.
Grant Rorrison
197 Posted 30/09/2017 at 17:55:03
Darren (#185). When you say that you 'saw through his bullshit from the off', what exactly do you mean by 'bullshit'?
Will Mabon
198 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:00:28
George, that's one contest we've won at least.

Quite a few in the media have noticed what's afoot and have been saying to.

John G Davies
199 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:04:43
Ve half vays of making you talk.
George Cumiskey
200 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:10:56
Yes, Will, but there are a lot of people even on ToffeeWeb with the unshakable belief that Koeman and the board know what they are doing, and it will all work out in the end.

It's a kind of blind faith.

Brent Stephens
201 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:15:37
George, I think the vast majority on TW see the problems with Koeman. I'd be surprised if there are many with an unshakable blind faith in him.
John G Davies
202 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:18:18
Me too, Brent.
Seamus McCrudden
203 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:26:45
I don't know what you are all arguing about. This season is mirroring last season when we were dreadful until Xmas or so. Koeman's excuse of an unfit team last term wont let him off the hook this time around.

The football we are playing is in the main slow and disjointed creating virtually no chances for long periods of games. Why does Koeman start with the same formation game after game? Then change it at half time or shortly afterwards only to do exactly the same thing in the next match? Same set up same formation. Was it insanity that someone said is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

Losing faith rapidly, and I originally wanted Koeman as our manager. Signing no replacement for Lukaku though was a disgrace and utter stupidity.

Brent Stephens
204 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:28:07
John, I think the problem is that pointing out any positive in any manager or player is often taken as a positive comment on everything about him. Clearly things are rarely black and white, and I think it's only fair to bring out both sides of things. And the reverse is true - a negative comment, for the purpose of balance, can be seen as being totally anti somebody. So we end up with staunchly-defended, diametrically-opposed positions.

You can be genuinely agnostic about a manager's or player's ability and still acknowledge a point for or against a position.

Brent Stephens
205 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:31:14
Seamus, I think most on here recognise all that. Depressing in the extreme.
Brian Williams
206 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:37:26
Seamus (#203).

We may have been crap 'til Christmas last season but at this time last season we had 14 points, twice what we've got as of today. I know we've had a tough start fixture-wise but it's the manner of the defeats and the style of football being played (style? there's a misnomer if ever there was one) that's MY worry.

We HAVE gone backwards with alarming speed!

George Cumiskey
207 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:37:46
Lads, look at the posts from Jamie Evans before you dismiss the "blind faith" scenario.

I think that's his name.

John G Davies
208 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:37:48
I agree, Brent.

Trying to point out the few positives doesn't make you a grass-skirt wearing flute-playing straw man blind loyalist.

Same as seeing no positives at all does not make you a complete miserable twat.

Tony Hill
209 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:48:56
I think that's true intellectually, Brent (#204), but then I look at successful sports teams (and indeed any successful organisations) and I ask whether agnostics make the best advisers and managers and I conclude that they do not because, for the most part, they give the benefit of the doubt to the status quo and are risk-averse. They see too many shades and nuances and end up being paralysed and/or embarrassed to make a change in good time.

Embarrassment at recognising plain difficulties is a bit of an English disease born of our reflex for politeness and shuffling away from trouble. In the end, we may get it right, but the modern pace of football decision-making is unforgiving.

I've always thought that Everton are too well-mannered, we have distinguished ourselves from our vulgar, trophy-winning neighbours (and other vulgar winners) by showing noble patience and rising above the fray. Alas, our lovely manners have produced fuck-all.

Brian Williams
210 Posted 30/09/2017 at 18:50:42
Koeman: It's not all doom and gloom.

"You musht look at the poshitives, I'm on shix million a year, woohoo"!

Anthony Hughes
211 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:02:29
For those who think Koeman should be given more time, what is it that you see that's gives hope that he can turn things around? Is it team selection, tactics, in-game management, man-management?

Genuine question, guys.

Brent Stephens
212 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:05:39
Tony (#209), I see what you're saying. I was just talking about how a few discussions end up on TW. And some, like me, were agnostic about Koeman (that's why I wouldn't make a manager!!). I was just arguing for some honesty on TW.

Take your point about the need for managers not being agnostic, though. Alongside that, I think in any organisation, any team in an organisation you need a mix of different opinions, and to allow genuine differences to be aired openly and not confronted personally (when somebody attacks our point, we can take it personally and become defensive – I can). Out of conflict comes creativity, and all that. Belbin etc.

I think on TW the best (and most) debates are where this happens. Where we might agree (amicably) to disagree. Or where somebody changes their view and that isn't rammed down their throat as a victory (I told you so) by somebody else. Where respect is shown.

Seamus McCrudden
213 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:05:49
I agree Anthony the writing is on the wall.
Trevor Peers
214 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:09:20
Niasse is our biggest positive, just now, Koeman would be foolish not to play him, he plays without fear, surely on that basis he should be the first name on the team sheet.

If Koeman has any real ambition that is, it's Burnley at home get a grip Ron.

John Otway
215 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:18:02
Brian. Comic genius. You should do stand up taking the piss out of Johnny Foreigner.
Brian Williams
216 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:22:49
........that's Ronnie foreigner.
Brent Stephens
217 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:26:23
Anthony, I for one think his time is up.
Tony Hill
218 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:28:04
Yes, I see that, Brent (#212).
Brian Williams
219 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:33:30
Brent (#217).

Thing is mate just can't see those at the top doing anything about it til Christmas at least, and probably not before the season ends, unless we're perilously close to the relegation zone.

Dermot Byrne
220 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:33:53
I worry about the perspectives of some being based on a long golden age that didn't actually exist. In between successes in 1960s, 70s, 80s and one in the 90s there were many years of crap, unimaginative football. So let's be honest. In those years fans turned up and were about as accepting of mediocrity as we are today.i.e. hate it. But let's not pretend we have been Barcelona up until the managers you hate came
Brian Williams
221 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:36:08
Good point Dermot. Even our most recent "golden era" lasted what? 3 years?
Brent Stephens
222 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:39:02
Brian, yes, I suspect he won't be going yet. But I do wonder more and more whether Moshiri might just step in before then. It might only take a few more defeats in the next few games and our position will stink (more). The cost of a pay-off would be dwarfed by the cost of relegation.

How can we be in a position we can even talk about possible relegation?

Mike Dolan
223 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:39:39
Football is a weird and wonderful game . When you score goals it is all beauty and grace when you can't seem to score it's is just awful to watch it's frustrating and ugly. When you don't score goals there is always something to blame it's the manager, its the physio who can't keep the stars on the pitch, its the team selection, it's the donkey that is at center half, its the lack of width ,its the inability to play the ball through the channels, its the manager who has lost the dressing room, its because the players have no discipline , its because the players are too disciplined and can't express themselves.

I was following the depressing live feed on TW midweek and it struck me that as the fans submitted their team lineups that no two were the same. No surprise there really as the number of combinations of 10 outfield players is about 1000000000 and if you add in a few substitutes then the permutations begin to get unimaginable even for the knowledge base on ToffeeWeb.

I think we all know that Ronald Koeman is at the very least a competent respected Manager. At the moment he looks like a fool because we can not even look like we are going to find the back of the net but give him time and it will begin to look better than this ,we have to play through this bad form which IMHO has been caused by a combination of a brutal fixture list meeting a team that had not gelled. It will get a lot better. I was looking at the replay of our game against United no sound just the picture and at times Everton where playing them off the park but the result was 1-4. There were signs there of what is to come Koemans correct it is just a matter of collective self belief. CONFIDENCE .

I hope to God that the long suffering fans can show a little class and encourage this club to turn the corner because for the first time in over twenty odd years we as a club show signs of finally climbing back to where we should always be. Its almost as if the fans are needed to get behind all of these new players and the club as a whole Just to spark this new team along. Lets support this side FFS Lets breath into them the confidence to move forward. They just need a little help.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
224 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:40:39
Brent (#212), some good points about the qualities of decent debate on here.

Coming late to this (or I probably would have nipped it in the bud), I see Darren has been doing his damnedest to cock a snoolk at those qualities, and has dragged things down to his own pathetic level when his overblown nonsense has been called to task.

I've warned him about going down this path before, but apparently to no lasting effect.

Brian Williams
225 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:41:42
Frightening Brent, frightening.
Brent Stephens
226 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:42:12
Michael, I kick myself for responding to it, and just perpetuating it. Sorry.
James Hughes
229 Posted 30/09/2017 at 19:55:52
Brian @221. that is true: our last golden age only lasted 3 years. We were a team on the up and we were shunted into a siding.

The European ban took away the momentum we had built up. Most things were going right and we were looking to build on that. The ban took us from The top table to the Zenith Data Cafe. Trevor Steven, for example, went on to win the league in both Scotland and France.

I know I am going over old ground but the English clubs ban was wrong – it should have been just one. Whether we could have maintained our progress is a moot point. Still pisses me off.

Brian Williams
233 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:11:56
John and Brent. I can't fault Darren, or either of you, for your passion towards our club and nobody gets as angry as me at our losses and our situation. I rant and argue all the way home after a game, don't usually sleep well the night after a loss, and don't really want to talk much after a bad result.

Thing is, and I mean this in a friendly way, we have to leave the pettiness, the constant point-scoring, and the apparent importance put on proving others wrong rather than exchanging opinions and having some banter.

When those "arguments" break out, more than a few TWers just sign out and steer clear, which is a shame.

Imagine if we were great though, fuck all to talk about!


John G Davies
234 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:29:05
Brian,

I suffer worse than you when we get beat.
I can't get to sleep for two nights never mind one.
I don't talk for 6 days after a defeat, not a word.
😁

Brian Williams
235 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:35:50
John, your Mrs must be even happier than mine after a loss then :-).
Peter Gorman
236 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:45:27
I've arrived late to this particular bun-fight but I decided to do a little trip down the archives to see what there was to see and it has been fun, fun, fun.

I now know definitively that, up until the game away at Chelsea, there were a few rumblings that the football was pretty bland (mostly players blamed) and questions asked whether or not Koeman could be doing something better to gain a mere 2 points more than his predecessor at the same stage of the season.

Then he was an absolute fanny at Stamford Bridge and a large number of fans called him on it, but the best was yet to come, a mere 4 days after that drubbing Koeman said this of Lukaku:

"Romelu will not have made the most of his career if he plays for Everton for the remainder of his career. He has the potential to play for a bigger club than Everton."

And then quite a lot of fans thought he was a massive dick. The date; 9 November 2016.

ps: Couldn't help but notice this quotation from Darren on 12 August 2016; http://www.ToffeeWeb.com/season/16-17/news/33266.html

"I can't love managers; I'm suspicious of them all. I didn't rate Martinez, didn't trust Moyes, and didn't sympathise with Walter... they're not Evertonians, mate, thats us. They are hired hands, paid employees...Let him earn your support; too many people gave our last two managers too much love too early. Let's make this one earn it."

Hope all that helps you work out who was right and wrong! Byeeeee!

John G Davies
237 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:53:16
I don't know, Brian. I haven't spoke to her much since August.
Brent Stephens
238 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:54:58
Aye to that, Brian #233. Greatness here we come.
Brian Williams
239 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:54:59
See John, every cloud an' all that!!
John G Davies
240 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:57:06
Not really, Brian.

I would settle for a few wins and my ears bleeding.

Brian Williams
241 Posted 30/09/2017 at 20:58:43
Let's start tomorrow!!
Tony Abrahams
242 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:02:35
Be careful what you write on ToffeeWeb, because once it's written down, it's there forever!

I've said before that Darren rubs people up the wrong way, and he probably does it even more because he's not that bothered about upsetting people that try to pick holes in his argument/points of view.

He knows his managers though, and possibly only Phil Walling was on to Martinez before his good self. Same with Koeman, who he's slagged for a very long time now?

Most of us try to be more positive, or are we just being more cautious? Not Darren, he nails his colours to his Everton mast, and obviously gets on a lot of people's nerves with his bluntness.

Just when it looks like he's beaten, Darren serves an ace, and I'm sure he would love Ronald to start doing the same thing now?

Brent Stephens
243 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:03:13
John, Brian. It's an old one but one of my favourites...

You know the genuine philosophical question: if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound? (George Berkeley, I think).

The follow up I love (not Berkeley): if I say something and my wife is not around to hear it, am I still wrong?

Brian Williams
244 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:05:14
Haha, Brent, not at all – you only become wrong when she returns!
John G Davies
245 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:08:08
Nothing wrong with plain speaking, Tony, give me that every time rather than a person who talks pretty to your face and snide behind your back. Trick is, if you give it, you have to accept it back.
Andy Crooks
246 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:13:32
Michael, I have disagreed with Darren most of the time but I have seen nothing on this thread from him and others that is nothing but robust debate.
John Otway
247 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:15:33
Ronnie foreigner. Brilliant Brian! It's going to be a sell out tour.
Brian Williams
248 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:23:14
What's your problem John?
John G Davies
249 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:30:31
I've got a baldy head, get pissed too easy and can't back a winner. Apart from that, everything's custy.

What's yours, Brian?

Brian Williams
250 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:32:12
Not you John, hahaha, the other John and how long have you got?

Main one is I was born to suffer as an Evertonian.

John G Davies
251 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:38:33
Another one is I jump in too quickly now and again Brian.
😁
Tony Abrahams
252 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:43:40
I suppose some people are never beaten, John G, because I've seen many an argument go round the block on ToffeeWeb, even though it's usually about something completely different by the end of the thread!

It's bad at the minute, because we have moved so far away from the basics, whether this be in formation, style, personnel, organization, or just the players understanding what the manager wants, that is what is frustrating me so much.

Football to me is about the team, it's about having partners out on the pitch, little twos and threes, team-mates you can depend upon, because it's all about how much help you get, both on and off the ball, and its about not getting isolated?

This formation is not being grasped, and it leaves so many players feeling isolated, the space between the players is massive once the ball goes away from the middle of the park and it can't be enjoyable to play in?

I can understand people who want 4-4-2, but I want to see a 4-5-1, with Gana, Davies, and Sigurdsson playing as our midfielders. I want to see two genuine wide-men, and a centre-forward who is prepared to run, graft, and stretch the opposition.

I think Rooney is fucked until he sorts his private life out, but maybe he could go and play on the left, because getting a decent partner like Baines might just resurrect them both?

Just a thought that one, but the bit about getting some balance to help out the craft and the fullbacks is so fucking obvious, it's actually making Koeman look ridiculous, especially considering I think we could be a really decent team if the manager could go and get things right?

Brian Williams
253 Posted 30/09/2017 at 21:53:32
John (# 251).

Mistook me for your nemesis there mate haha, nearly bit my swede off.

Brian Williams
254 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:00:33
Tony (#252).

Talking of Rooney, Tony, I'm not sure he's fucked just because of his private life. He's obviously still got a footballing brain beyond 90% of other players and he plays the odd outstanding pass but I think he struggles a lot of the time. Struggles with timing, and struggles with his general fitness by the look of some of the things he does because he's completely knackered.

This is why I personally didn't want him back. We were all hoping he was still at the top of his game, but IMO he's well past that and a mere few moments of class aren't enough to warrant a start.

John G Davies
255 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:03:47
It's easier to back away from a polite argument, Tony.

I agree, half a team pressing may as well be none of the team pressing. All or none.

I don't think we've got a formation at the moment, it seems to be pack the narrow areas and hope the full backs give width. Confidence is low and players are hiding rather than showing.

Any player receiving the ball with a little time and space should have four or five options. Mostly we have two. Back or square is one and knocked into the channels is the other.

I am giving him until Bolasie and Coleman are back and the end of the January window. I also agree that we have the basis of a good team, just need three additions.

Tony Abrahams
256 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:09:53
That's why I'm suggesting trying him on the left, Brian. He can't play upfront no-more, and Sigurdsson, looks a much better bet, to play ahead of the other midfielders, so I was thinking of him trying to maybe pair up with Baines, which might just help the both of them?

I actually can't think of another position for him at the minute, and although it might just be another contradiction playing a player who has lost his pace out wide. Pienaar was never the quickest, and although he was intelligent, Rooney is one of the most intelligent footballers I have ever seen, so maybe it just might work?

John G Davies
257 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:15:42
Rooney would be fine if we had pace around him, and pacy runners going past him from midfield. We haven't so his lack of pace stands out.

Pace and good movement would see him getting the runners in, he has the vision to easily do that.

Tony Abrahams
258 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:23:41
I reckon Baines, would give his right arm to have the chance to pair-up with Rooney, and even if it didn't work, at least the team would be a lot more balanced.

John Pierce
259 Posted 30/09/2017 at 22:32:47
I feel the bar is that low for Koeman now, anything that is different from the same predictable set up will be greeted with unbridled joy.

Any innovation or invention would be welcome. It's so sad his tenure amounts to feeding off crumbs to eek one iota of improvement knowing full well it will probably be the same formation, same issues and the same sad, stinky, saggy ball-sack of a performance.

I want us to play well so badly, just to beat a team and perform for a whole game. Its been soooo long, I cannot remember the last time I was grinning from ear to ear after a game.

I have a very long day tomorrow, the DVR is set and I'll be back tired and sore from my own game. Please can the Everton I know stand up?!

Laurie Hartley
260 Posted 01/10/2017 at 02:55:43
Tony Abrahams (#242) – I'd play in your team any day of the week.
Derek Thomas
261 Posted 01/10/2017 at 05:18:15
Michael Kenrick; It might be Illuminating to have a poll before the Burnley game. Koeman should go:

W, L, or D on Sun night.

A Win gets him until after the Watford Home game. (5 Nov)

After the Derby. (10 Dec)

After Watford A (24 Feb)

End of Season

Sees out Contract.

Laurie Hartley
263 Posted 01/10/2017 at 05:20:08
Peter Gorman # 236 - thanks for the research.

That sorted it out for me.

Will Mabon
264 Posted 01/10/2017 at 13:14:24
"Football to me is about the team, it's about having partners out on the pitch, little twos and threes, team-mates you can depend upon, because it's all about how much help you get, both on and off the ball, and its about not getting isolated?"

Very true, Tony, as seen in Chelsea vs City, and exactly what we don't have right now. There is zero team cohesion.

Mike Berry
265 Posted 02/10/2017 at 18:44:40
Koeman reminds me of the Captain of the Titanic. Full speed ahead, there's no iceberg. We'll be okay...
John Smith
266 Posted 07/10/2017 at 22:53:35
Here's a link for those fans that think Koeman's comments are disastrous and you’re pining for the return of Moyes:

"Nobody would have done better than me at Manchester United after Sir Alex Ferguson, says David Moyes"

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/david-Moyes-manchester-united-interview-11303967

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