David Moyes: Manager for the future or Temporary Placeholder?

But let's see his finishing position; hopefully, we get Europe.

Moving away from last Saturday's result, or even those over the season, the question is this: Is David Moyes the best manager to develop young players, integrate them into the squad, and give them the game time they need?

If the answer is No, then we have a manager whose skillset is contrary to the club's strategy, regardless of our finishing position this season.

It reminds me of Gordon Lee. He took us to 7th and 8th in the table in his first two seasons but struggled when asked to develop a younger squad. Sir Philip Carter had funds to invest in the transfer market, but did not trust Lee to spend the money as the manager defaulted to signing over-valued older players.

His decision was to hire a young manager called Howard Kendall. We will be in a similar position at the end of this season, so it will be interesting to see what the club decides.

That's not to say he didn't authorise their purchase, but we don't know the parameters he's operating under, whether Angus the Great is insisting on this sort of profile, and Moyes just chooses the best from a pool.

Eric, as long as the Moyesiah is demonstrating this sort of upward trajectory I think we should be looking to extend his deal, not line up a replacement.

But this idea that Moyes holds us back from being perennial trophy winners is absurd. In the 81 years since the end of World War 2, we have won 10 trophies (I know some people count the friendly that is/was the Charity Shield).

And 4 of those came in a 3-year block. So, for the other 78 years, we have won 6 things.

You see, it's apologetic pap such as that which kicks off the whole round again. When people read drivel like that, why would they not point out the blindingly obvious to counter it?

This club has gone through huge changes in the past couple of years:

Long-time living stealers in the boardroom have been run out of town and replaced.

Really astute signings like Garner and Ndiaye are at the very centre of everything the team is doing.

We have moved from an old dilapidated ground to the most modern stadium in the world.

The dosh-washing owners have also gone... and been replaced by shrewd businessmen who will never jeopardise the future of the club again.

Any one of these changes would be considered seismic at any other club. All of them would have happened before Davey Moyes even got here...

But let's forget all that. He's not just enjoying the benefits of all these changes -- he was the cause of it. He turned this club around!

Contrary to what some believe on here, we are called Everton FC and an awful lot of great people have worked tirelessly to "turn this club around". It may suit the sycophants to ignore all their work and lavish all their praise on the main beneficiary. Not me.

Many of us are in a bargaining stage now. Let's call it 'How I learned to love the Moyes', subtitle-without needing a shower.

He will likely be offered the extension. I'm not into it but that is not unjust in any way. Whether by his design or players taking initiative (Garner and Dewsbury-Hall), the performances are inspiring and the current path looks sustainable.

For me, Moyes played it safety first at the expense of more open football. Thanks to a very difficult and topsy-turvy league, we are in a position to close strong and vastly improve Everton's image.

It is my belief that Garner and Dewsbury-Hall are creating the innovation in play, not Moyes. That Moyes found a combination that worked, covered defensive priorities and has begun to produce attacking opportunities is fully down to him.

Perhaps those two field generals under his guidance are a durable fix. Moyes can be a bit drab and set in his ways, but maybe giving that nucleus the freedom to create could be magical stuff. They seem to properly defer to Moyes in interviews and are obviously on board. None of them have a personality that might blow it up, imo.

So yes I give credit to Moyes in a Garnered way so to speak.

The dosh-wasting owners, well as much as I wanted rid of Moshiri, it was his driving force along with Usmanov as to why we are sitting in the best Premier League ground in the country.

You reckon TFG are shrewd? Well, they have spent a lot of money on young kids who so far have contributed very little. But I am sure you will blame Moyes for that.

You say we are called Everton and we have an awful lot of great people who have worked tirelessly to turn this club around? Well, I would love to know who they are because, before Moyes came back, this club was looking at more and more relegation battles.

Moyes brought Jake O'Brien into the team and the lad has been terrific; he also brought Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall to the club -- brilliant additions -- and if anybody can't see the improvement in James Garner, they are walking round with their eyes closed.

Garner was nowhere near an England squad before Moyes came. He gave Keane a contract extension and, for me, he has been our best centre-back. Also, Mykolenko is getting better under Moyes.And McNeil looks a different player since the Palace deal fell through.

So why anyone would not admit to the job he has done since coming back is just ignoring the facts.

I will get my tin hat on as I am sure Darren will come back with both guns blazing, but that's what makes this site so good.

I am on the side of 'give him another 2-3 year contract' -- he's doing an excellent job just now.

I'm willing to see his perceived faults that are often highlighted by his critics, but he also has many good points which are on show this season and of which Brian mentions some above. Nobody's perfect and I think it would be crackers to change managers after this season.

Most fans want a winning team, how that's achieved comes a poor second to that aim for me at least.

Of course some managers will be more able than others but, as I keep banging on, players are the most important factor in the success of a team by a country mile.

If we want to get to the top and stay there, we need a team full of the very best players first and foremost.

And just like Trump, they are doubling down, sounding sillier and sillier. It's understandable though.

No money, an absent board, and with the club in complete disarray, he somehow helped us achieve Premier League safety.

I think Moyes coming 4th with that 2004-05 squad was probably a better achievement (it was definitely bigger).

I'm sure some would go for Martinez, because of his points tally or two cup semi-finals in the same year, but overall the last 30 years have been nothing short of an unmitigating disaster for Everton Football Club.

Kevin, nobody has sounded sillier than you at times this season, mate. Not for defending Moyes... but when you defended him with a lot of half-truths!

We must endeavour to forgive, and forget.

That is the question I am asking - do we need a development coach this summer with a longer term plan aligned to our strategy?

The average age of the team against Chelsea was 29 years 25 days. I think this reflects the manager's faith in picking sides with tried and tested senior players, and it is working for him this season.

However, the club has added Dibling, Aznou, Rohl, George and Barry to a squad that already includes Jake O'Brien (24 years old), Tim Iroegbunam (22 years old), Carlos Alcaraz (23 years old), Nathan Patterson (24 years old) and Harrison Armstrong (19 years old).

As Tony A has pointed out countless times, the manager does not give these young players sufficient runs in the team or game time to develop. O'Brien is the exception, not the rule. They have one bad game, they are dropped but James Tarkowski has remained the first name on the team sheet despite his poor form.

Therefore, regardless of whether Moyes has done a decent, good or great job this season, I think we should look to the future this summer, as Sir Philip Carter did in 1981. This summer, not end of next season or beyond.

My desire to pick up the revolver for another game of Russian Roulette is 0.0.

You cited Koeman as being incredibly wasteful - this would be on a par with that.

His approach is not aligned with the strategy the club is putting in place. And TFG will not write off that investment simply because the manager won’t pick the talent.

Unlike the solid gold duds that dickhead left behind.

Dibling's current market value is £19M after we bought him for £35M only 7 months ago.

Having a top player come in and take your position is hard. Recovering from an injury and a family crisis is harder. But bouncing back from being screwed over on a transfer takes courage -- and great big cojones. Huge respect to Dwight.

Then again, maybe not. The club has history for worshipping managers who get us to 8th.

And who sits to give them those minutes? Is Dibling better than Grealish or Ndiaye? Is Aznou better than Mykolenko?

If you move Gana, Keane, and Tarkowski out, for Branthwaite, Armstrong, and a decent right-back in, then most of those outfield players are somewhere in the 23-28 camp, I'd think.

Certainly the transfer strategy has not been to buy ready-made players. Grealish and Dewsbury-Hall were the only over 25-year-old signing last summer.

The Chelsea age is super low. And what they're getting from it is a lack of game intelligence, silly mistakes, and getting bullied way too easily. The first thing I'd be doing at Chelsea is buying an experienced centre-back.

He's lost value on Dibling, but gained it on Armstrong, Ndiaye, Garner, O'Brien etc. You can't win them all.

So we either play them, or at least give them more minutes, or loan them out next season and hope they can prove their worth.

Maybe they are working him in slowly after the injury but I think that player should be on the pitch more.

However, recently, two of the biggest fears were his record against the big teams and the ability to take the game to the opponents. Against Newcastle and Chelsea, we did that.

I agree with you that, if we finish in the Top 8, then he should be allowed to see out the final year of his contract, as that will be overachievement and so he will deserve that.

We have an exciting end to the season with now a real possibility of European qualification, which I didn't think possible a month ago.

Hopefully you will be gloating come the end of the season even if it's a bit premature now. We still need another 3 points to get past what Dyche managed with a really poor squad so some of your assumptions will need validity come May. It's looking good though.

The Premier League is a very serious business, we are doing well -- why change the team? Fans would soon complain if we lost games because of young players' inexperience.

If it is that there's not much money to spend, I would suggest Moyes tries a few swap deals. We seem to have a few players other teams fancy for the first time in a while...

The young players are far from write-offs. I'm just wondering how long it will be before those who are denying they are Moyes's signings until they are blue in the face, start insisting that Mr Brightside was responsible for bringing him here after all.

I reckon one good game from any of them will swing it!

He has said that this would be his last managerial job; he is about to reach his mid 60s so he is not going to be at Everton for years to come.

What does drive you mad on this forum is the so-called experts who appear to know anything and everything about football and how to run a professional Premier League football club.

If you listen to or read articles by existing managers, ex-players and people in the know, they consider Moyes to be a top class manager or coach... but not the know-all supporters on here, for some reason.

I think it's time for some just to watch the football and enjoy life more.

As it does you to your opinion... if you pay to watch Everton.

I see. So the money-wasting owner and the 'living stealers' that were responsible for the 'shrewd signings' and new stadium leaving, and being replaced with 'shrewd business men' who over-hauled the squad with young players for a sizable amount of money and also appointed a man that prefers to start with an 11 that has an average age of 29, are the reasons why we've improved?

All of this correlates with Moyes returning to the club. But that's just a coincidence because he's crap and a 'beneficiary' of things that took place before he arrived but didn't show any improvement until afterwards?

Thanks for the clarity.

Keep listening to the experts who are usually paid to give their opinions, mate, instead of the lunatics on this website who do it for free!

The sycophancy for not much in return continues to surprise me.

Will we win trophies with Moyes as manager? No.

I do expect them to start trying to challenge for honours once again, and I believe that, if David Moyes continues in the same vein and starts realising how good both himself and Everton could be, then he could be the man who helps lead us back into the big time.

It's there if he really wants it because the Evertonians are absolutely desperate for success and this will really help anyone who has got enough belief in themselves to really want to go and give the fans what they desire.

If we get nothing from Brentford and then a spirited performance against the Shite that yields nothing but a couple of injuries and a red card for good measure, then talk of Europe will evaporate.

We are only 7 points ahead of Palace and if we revert to the usual damp squib of a season's end, when relegation is no longer a threat, I think somewhere between 12th and 15th is probably more realistic.

As for whether we should be giving him more time, I have not been shy about my views. I hate his brand of football and I hate the way that people have started to be convinced by “Just be grateful” rather than “Only the best will do”.

For younger fans that don't remember the greyness of his previous 11 years at the club, where we were tantalised with the prospect of trophies and Champions League football, only to ultimately go nowhere and achieve nothing, it's understandable that he is indeed a pick-me-up after the likes of Dyche or the FSW. Does that mean he should be manager now? — Hell No!

This is the same Moyes who preferred Joleon Lescott at left-back over an emerging Leighton Baines because of the much vaunted Premier League experience.

For the younger players brought in last summer from outside the Premier League, whatever your opinion on their skillset or ability, have any of them been given a fair crack of the whip?

Even when they do get the merest chance, they are played out of position, brought on in the 90th minute, or in a losing cause.

The truth is, if you value youth and potential at all, then Moyes is sadly lacking. I want him gone at the end of the season.

Scratch that, if I heard now that he was gone today, I'd raise a drink. I doubt I'll get my wish though, as the appetite for mediocrity still seems too great.

And as for never finishing a season strongly, am I incorrect in recalling three straight wins to close out 2024-25?

When he rejoined the club, his task was to keep us up, which he achieved. Last summer, he had to rebuild a squad, while still constrained by PSR, with so many players out of contract, and ensure we were not in a relegation fight.

Again he has achieved this with the squad in a much better place and fighting for Europe, not against relegation. This summer, the objective will to be to develop the depth and quality of the squad so we can compete in the cups and competing for Europe is not a surprise, making sure we don't do what Forest have this season.

In terms of youngsters, perhaps we wouldn't be where we are in the table if Dibling had been picked ahead of McNeil or Aznou ahead of Mykolenko?

Let's no forget, he has given plenty of youngsters a chance previously, to name a few: Coleman, Stones, Rodwell, Barkley, Rooney, Vaughan, Anichebe, Osman.

There have also been a few posts recently hoping Moyes will be moved on at the end of this season. I'd suggest that is very, very unlikely.

No one knows how next season will pan out but, at the moment, an extension to his contract is probably more likely than a P45.

Nobody knows for sure and any who do ain't saying, but I believe Moyes contract to be 18 months with an option for another 12 months.

My advice is to come back this time next year.

TFG of course will do – rightly or wrongly – what they think fit at the time.

For instance; If the USA have a 'good' World Cup (if it goes ahead) they might decide to go all Pochettino-tastic – who knows?

When you listen to a few of their more experienced players, one of whom had won the biggest prize in world football, it sounded like the people at the very top of the club were satisfied with that achievement before a ball had been kicked in the final.

The start of the Tottenham downfall, quite possibly happened in the build up to the club's biggest ever game, especially because I'm not sure they backed Pochettino maybe as much as they should have done after they lost that game.

You all just talk about the same stuff, no changing of views, no give or take, just total digging in of heels.

Boring.

I've missed a lot of home games through the style of football (gutted I missed Saturday, the football was what I expect from an Everton team).

If he continues to play the same as Saturday, wild horses won't keep me away.

You always post stuff like that. 😁

Generalizations like that are what bring TW down.

You can have a new stadium, new board, new owners, new kit, new fuckin tea lady... you still need a manager to get results; he's getting them. Until he's not, it shouldn't be on the agenda.

People go on about the shit show of a board and owners we had when he was here for the first time. He might do even better with a professional set-up behind him, who knows?

What was the expectation for this season? What would have been classed as a successful season? In my opinion, to be challenging for Europe, with 7 games to go, sitting 3 points behind Liverpool, is quite remarkable.

Yes, we could have been higher; yes, we have lost points that we shouldn't; yes, youth hasn't been given a chance... but couldn't fans of every team in the Premier League nearly say that?

Whilst Moyes does have his flaws, what can't be overlooked is that we were 17th in the Premier League, 2 points above the relegation zone, with 9 points from the previous 12 games when he took over. We finished 13th and we are now currently 8th.

It had been 11 years since we had beat Man Utd at Old Trafford -- and we did that with 10 men; 6 years since we had beaten Newcastle and Fulham away, and 6 visits to Bournemouth without success.

So, yes, let's sack Moyes for someone else; that worked wonders for West Ham... and yes, let's criticise the tactics he used over a decade ago... and yes, let's pretend that anyone could have done the job he's done in 14 months.

I'm just going to enjoy the rest of the season's journey and cheer on the lads in their quest for Europe. Enjoying the moment might just be a little more enjoyable than trying to predict our next manager...

Please, don't start bringing logic into these discussions.

You just never know where it will lead?

I don't expect to come on here and explain our recent history to anybody... but I will.

First, you need to understand who the living stealers were -- they're the board members who deserted -- remember them?

Then you need to understand who the dosh-washers are -- they'll be the real owner who had assets frozen, and his puppets.

Then you'll need to think long and hard about who the shrewd businessmen are -- they'll be the people who watched it all unravel before buying this club (complete with stadium) for an absolute song.

Next is the DoF who actually brought in the players who are keeping Moyes's own signings out of his team -- you must remember him?

Actually, I think by now you will realise they are all different people but, if you are not sure of the names, get back to me and I will make it even clearer to you too.

When you've worked all that out, you need to get everything in chronological order... With me?

Once you have done that, you will realise that the shrewd businessmen (remember them?) gave their manager around £170M to spend on players. Funds that previous managers like Dyche and Lampard could only dream about.

Now, if you sit down and think about it, you will realise that you are talking utter shite when you claim this all happened before Moyes got here. You see, he was the beneficiary. He received the funds. He also inherited the players signed by the previous DoF (him again!). Which is just as well because they are miles better than the ones he signed himself.

Before he had time to pinch himself, Moyes then realised he was going to be benefiting from being able to send his team out to play in the best stadium in the country. He could attract players on the strength of it. Talk about benefiting from other people's work!

One thing is certain: the sort of dumb luck that has made him the richest failure in sport still hasn't deserted him. Everything but the crown jewels fell into his lap: the funds, the players, the stadium.

"Turned it around single handedly"? Yeah... of course he has. Given what has been handed to him on a plate. My cat could have moved this team a few places up the table -- and he'd have deffo made a better fist of it in the cups.

In saying this, you could say Dibling has had opportunities to show what he can do and failed to take any, whereas the performance in the 30-odd minutes from the kid Aznou against Sunderland makes you wonder. Moyes reckons he is not physically ready; Aznou could be Coleman all over again!

Moyes is a steady manager who can build a team that (most of the time) will show up and make it tough for opponents, but he rarely goes for it... and, for me, that does my head in.
Definitely the right choice to succeed Dyche and I appreciate he has got us back on track... but, for me, he isn't the long term fix.

I just wonder what a more positive-thinking football manager would do with us!

I can't disagree with that attitude. A manager who is demonstrating continuous progression is all we could ask for.

Kevin Molloy (13), “We need another 3 years of stability first…”

That seems like slamming the brakes on -- if not an actual U-turn.

Much more contentious and an absolute deal breaker for many (because that is all he could ultimately deliver in his first stint).

David West (46), “You still need a manager to get results; he's getting them. Until he's not, it shouldn't be on the agenda.”

Rather than being logical, this seems overly simplistic. The manager's performance targets, the judgement as to whether he is actually exceeding expectations, are for his bosses to decide. Getting results presumably also includes some decent cup runs, which Moyes hasn't shown much progression with so far.

For many, Moyes still has a fair amount to prove.

It's not ludicrous to think that he could do a decent job and still be moved on. TFG are businessmen and I'd be surprised if they don't consider there are ‘safe pair of hands' managers but there might also be ‘revolutionary' ones they could employ when the time is right.

By the way, the reason I went off after that game was because he brought McNeil on to play on the right wing. So I was wrong about that.

What I will say is this. We should be thankful to Sean Dyche for helping us avoid relegation in what were dire internal and external circumstances. But we should also remember that he reportedly told TFG he could not take these players any further. Yet Moyes with the exception of Dewsbury-Hall seems to be doing that with the same group of players.

There are 7 games to go, so we could end up in the European spots or in the safety zone above the relegation places... but my mental outlook has changed due to the way we have played over the last few games. So much so that I thought we would beat Arsenal and was convinced we would beat Chelsea.

My expectation now is that we will beat Brentford away and the enemy at our wonderful new stadium. (Thank you, Farhad Moshiri -- you got that right and it cost you big time.)

So where am I at now with David Moyes? -- not that it matters much! Well, I have decided that I don't have to like him and I am not good enough to hate him so I am going to try to back him -- just like I will back the players.

Here is a clip of Beto after the game. Some young man he is. Have a look at the bottom left-hand corner of the split screen -- Dewsbury-Hall has got his arm round Gana. These players are a terrific group. Who knows... we might even see Gana with his arm round Keane before the season's out!

https://youtube.com/shorts/pqGD4Ydd2GQ?si=nf7dmOxVU3-VCMlh

We will be great again. Sooner than we expected.

But, if I was a new owner who has had problems at their other clubs rather than a lifetime supporter, I would have to say that he is fulfilling expectations. The improvement is not just in the Premier League position but the last few games have shown an improvement also in the standard of football.

On that basis, rather than his previous record, I'd be leaning to giving him another season or at least part of it to see if the improvement continues and more so if I had to pay out a contract or compensation.

The interesting part might be if the decision is taken by the new owner or the executives who were hired for their performance at another club only recently promoted and not doing quite as well as at their newfound level.

You were absolutely hostile to Moyes coming back MG. Only MK matched the toxicity of your vitriol. I was actually taken by surprise. The happy warm glow of the new convert is a well-documented phenomenon.

Ironically, the other player we were rumoured to be in for, Fellows, replaced Dibling at Saints and has been scoring and playing well.

We should have got Fellows to sit on our bench at £12M rather than overpaying for Dibling.

Hang on there, John. So, an opinion matters more “if you pay to watch Everton"? Seriously?

Would you include pay-for-view in your “pay-to-watch?” Someone say in Bulgaria, who pays his provider to watch us play (or anyone else anywhere in the world -- or in Britain who, for completely viable and understandable reasons, cannot get to the match)? Or is he/she consigned to the fourth-tier of opinion?

I thought that we had done with the "superiority" of the match-goer on here years ago.

Was Moyes responsible for buying or, in the case of Armstrong, nurturing, any of the following: Armstrong, Ndiaye, Garner, O'Brien etc?

Who is/are the “etc.” by the way?

I do know that Stones joined us on the last day of January 2013 and he was an unused substitute on three occasions before Moyes left for Old Trafford 6 months later. That's it.

However, if he's been told to go for it this season, then of course he will select players who won't be overawed, won't allow themselves to get bullied and won't crumble if the crowd gets on their back.

There are signs that quality is improving -- we certainly have a core of Pickford, Branthwaite, O'Brien, Garner, Dewsbury-Hall, Ndiaye who can play attractive football against decent teams.

There are signs of similarities with Moyes first time around, where Jagielka, Baines, Fellaini, Arteta, Pienaar and Osman plus a solid defence had us very close to a side that could compete at the top.

He should, in my opinion be given the time to see how far he can go with this squad. We know where we must improve and, whilst some of the youngsters will come through (Tim Iroegbunam looks a good player to me) we need to add a few more who are ready for the first team.

Moyes will never please everyone and his behaviour when he left us for Man Utd will never be forgiven by some. He may be too cautious but he picks up points and there are moments of brilliance. I'd give him next season, regardless of European football, and see where we are then.

That said, I'm still unsure about expectations for next season. SDTA, SATS, and TFG have prioritised financial stability and I think they also want stability on the pitch. You and I, Dave, want a trophy and football to cherish but I think that right now SDTA, SATS, and TFG want steady stability to aid a better financial standing.

Meanwhile, the new stadium can become a 'cash cow'. The Frankie Goes To Hollywood reunion gig. You heard it here first.

Stability for the executive lads means being 7th or 8th this time next season. Then might be the time to move on and upwards, hopefully. If not, SDTA, SATS, and TFG will hit a rough patch.

This summer's window will tell us a lot about SDTA, SATS, and TFG, Dave. All of us might want to revisit our views once the next window slams shut. Whatever, Moyes will be in the hot seat, I think, and that, if nothing else, is being realistic.

Speaking personally, Dave, my eyes are much more on SDTA, SATS, and TFG than Moyes.

I was never "hostile" to Moyes's return -- as I have recounted many times here, my exact words were "crushingly disappointed" because he was "yesterday's man" -- and that qualifies as neither toxicity nor vitriol.

And yes, as I have also recounted many times, I was wrong. As a Yank and therefore a footy Philistine, my entire interest is in results rather than football style, and Moyes's results have been simply outstanding.

As for your first paragraph, as you well know, I am not of your religion and it is therefore incomprehensible to me (I have no idea what 'Road to Damascus' means). And your "segway" between the two definitely requires critical review and rewriting to raise it above a C-minus.

Good luck with your next effort.

Re-signing Keane for free had a value for his displays on offer. Some of the others will depend on contract situations in McNeil, Beto, Mykolenko.

The concern over losing money on players is only fully realised when they're sold. Aznou, Dibling, and Rohl can still come good either here or on loan. Rohl and Aznou weren't that expensive for the profile of player; I'd expect most of the fee could be recovered.

Dibling is a worry, but I've been consistent on this one before signing him. I wanted an experienced right winger -- not potential.

Is the squad worth more than last season plus the new players? I'd suggest it is.

Was Moyes responsible for buying or (in the case of Armstrong) nurturing any of the following: Armstrong, Ndiaye, Garner, O'Brien etc?

I don't get what you mean. Are they worth more? Yes, they are. Are they better players from being under Moyes? In most cases, yes. You can split hairs over Ndiaye, but I think you'll see him raise his game off the left. He was wasted on the right.

And in the words of his chief scout at the time:-

“David always used to say to me that, as well as looking for first-team players, look out for the best young players,” the 57-year-old said.

"David always wanted to bring in the best young kids, as long as they fit into our budget."

“I knew when he came back he would steady the ship, he cares about Everton and as soon as he came in, I think, personally speaking, I was really happy because I knew he would be okay.

“His work ethic, his time spent on the grass, his time spent in the office has not changed and I think he's incredible, the hunger and desire that he still has like he had the first time round.

“I mean, he's an example and you don't get as far as he's done and manage as many games as he's done without genuine hard work, which I think is so important.”

As quoted in the Red Echo

Considering the length of time David Moyes spent at the club under that disgusting owner who begged, stole and borrowed to keep hold of his train-set, whilst the two of them turned Everton into John Lyall's West Ham! (More subjectivity - Considering Lyall delivered the Hammers two FA Cups)

The best line that I have personally read in this whole thread comes from Si @51. “For many, David Moyes still has a fair amount to prove.”

“We were interviewing him all the time [during West Ham's European campaigns], and he just felt like a man at the peak of his powers,” Cole says on The Dressing Room podcast, opposite ex-England left-back Wayne Bridge and namesake Carlton.

“He had total control of that club.

“West Ham is a hard club to manage because of the expectations. We've seen good managers go to West Ham and fail. But when you meet Moyes, you walk into the club and [you can see] straight away, he's in control.

“I went to see Graham Potter at West Ham and interviewed him – again, a nice guy – but I didn't feel like he was the ‘boss' in the building.

“Listen, we know what Moyes produces. We know what he did for West Ham. He's one of those managers who keeps a sturdy ship; it doesn't sink, it's unsinkable,” Carlton Cole quips.

“He's just one of those who builds on what he's got, if he gets the right players.

“Take Beto for instance [scorer of a brace in that 3-0 Chelsea win]. He's starting to get something out of him. I honestly thought he was a lost cause, but it just shows you how good of a man-manager Moyes is. His way might not be for everybody, and it might not look clean on the eye, but he gets the job done."

So why the 12-month gap on a player who hasn't been injured then?

You were indeed very hostile to Moyes coming back. I remember it well. To say I was surprised was actually a complement.

I'm sorry if you cannot follow this prose – ‘you float in the rapture of the Road to Damascus moment, for instance, or in my experience - not me - the late-in-life new-born Catholic who extol their new destination'.

As someone, unlike you, who published only with Oxford and Cambridge University Presses and multiple major periodicals and academic journals I need no advice from you about prose. Nothing wrong with my lines at all unless you're an elderly old Grub Street sports hack.

The ‘Road to Damascus', by the way, involves one of the most famous jews. No need for ‘critical review' it's fairly obvious to an educated person what the link is.

And, erm, "crushingly disappointed" because he was "yesterday's man" is not hostile. FYI, ‘hostile' = ‘unfriendly, antagonistic'. I think that "crushingly disappointed" meets a low bar. But you were way more vitriolic than that. Let's see if I can dig something up.

Meanwhile, never grade my prose apparent journo, keeper, referee extraordinaire. I do that for a living and, if you like, I can send you a few book reviews out of many. Ever published a 600 page book MG through proofing and copy-editing for CUP and OUP? Of course not Grub Street.

Then I'll take notice.

Despite our altercations, I would consider it a good and worthy cause. It's never too late in life to learn how to write better with expert help.

Often the more modern managers seem to talk in 'psycho babble' but with substance.

I'm thinking Guardiola, Arteta and Klopp. They talk about mental state, mental fatigue, emotional load and wellbeing of players more than the older school managers ever did. Compared to someone like Sir Alex Ferguson, the language has definitely changed. Often it feels vague or corporate. I'm thinking Potter, Rosenior.

I feel managers these days often speak in generalities to avoid criticising players publicly and no doubt they get media training to encourage softer, more abstract language.

For me, I'm more than happy to hear 'He was rubbish', 'We were sloppy'. I'm thinking Ferguson, and Moyes.

Dyche is a conundrum. He can go either way.

I was talking to the 25-year-old son of a friend of mine who is on a Sports-based degree, and he was trying to educate me and telling me that the oldies have to realise times have changed. 

In his opinion, and probably backed up by his studies, he was saying the more modern approach is basically down to a few changes.

Sports science has evolved to such an extent that clubs treat mental fatigue almost like a physical injury. Burnout, confidence dips, and pressure are tracked and managed.

The rise in a player's value is such that clubs have needed to invest in psychologists and welfare teams to protect performance.

Squad management is becoming harder. Larger squads, more games, so managers need emotional intelligence to keep players motivated, especially when they are not playing.

His last comment was about culture and leadership. More modern managers are younger, closer in age to players than before, and have become people-managers combining psychology with tactics, rather than managers of old on authority and discipline.

Perhaps, Moyes could be known as the 'People's Manager'.

I sit on the fence with David Moyes. I wasn't too keen that he came back... whilst sort of pleased that he did. 8th place and the possibility of Europe is a huge improvement on where we were.

The grass isn't always greener, so Moyes will do for me, especially if we can put in a few more performances like the one against Chelsea. I liken that result and performance to the one against Arsenal when we beat them 3-0 at Goodison under Martinez.

Overall, I think I prefer the older style approach to management... which I think you get with Moyes. Having said that, perhaps he has also had to soften his approach in terms of the new breed of players he is working with... Yes, am sitting on that fence.

Apologies for length of post!

That is logic leaving by the nearest available exit.

We pay £100M plus for these players based on their talent and performances, but as soon as they enter the training pitch at Finch Farm, Everton, their quality, commitment and standards collapse? Sure.

Or more likely, they aren't getting picked regardless of the form of the senior players ahead of them because the manager will always pick experienced players for the here and now.

On your questions (and some less partial ones):

Is Dibling better than Grealish or Ndiaye? No.
Is Aznou better than Mykolenko? Yes.
Is Dibling better than McNeil? Yes.
Is George better than McNeil? Yes.
Is Patterson better at right back than O'Brien? Yes.
Is Rohl better at No 10 than McNeil? Yes.
Should Garner play at No 6? Yes.
Should Dewsbury-Hall play at No 8? Yes.
Who should play at No 10? Rohl or Alcaraz when fit.
Who should play at centre-back? O'Brien and Keane while Branthwaite is recovering from injury.
Is David Moyes the right man to develop this young squad? No.

"Just because they're all out to get me doesn't mean I'm paranoid."

You know that's not what I meant, I'm a telly watcher myself this season.

You're only as good as the results you are getting. All this talk of his last stint, his previous record, is not worth arguing about. If we drop off significantly, like other managers, he'll be gone; if he continues to push us up the Premier League, then why would you get rid?

His big problem now is that he's probably overachieving this season. Not many would've had us where we are now before the season started... in fact, when we were playing in the USA, many thoughts were leaning towards a slog of a season or a relegation scrap.

So now fans expect to kick on, that's where the expectation will rise... Can he raise the levels of the team?

At £170M spent you would hope so.

He can finish, he is willing, he is strong, and he has a decent turn of pace and good movement, as shown for his first goal against Chelsea. The issue seems to be maintaining that over 10+ games.

What he can't do well is link the play up. His passing to a blue shirt is poor. So, when he isn't scoring and his first touch and hold-up play is weak, he is an obvious passenger.

Barry was bought as an upgrade. The issue is, he isn't that quick, his hold-up and passing is only marginally better, and both look like they're sub 10 Premier League goals over a season. Barry does have time on his side, and Beto could go for years as he is in good nic.

The striker berth is a conundrum. Barry has a problem with his social media mates at Arsenal, and an indifferent season. Beto has 15 months left on his deal, with rumours coming out of Turkey he has declined contract talks. But that could be playing to Fenerbache's hopes.

Paper talk: Moyes fancies Raul Jimenez as a cheap signing. Not the physical player I would want in terms of speed or goal output, but the lad is decent on the ball. Him and Wilson would be decent, for a modest outlay.

The challenge appears to be who can pen the most creative and expansive text garnished with biblical and other references designed to demonstrate their technical excellence and to diminish the contributions of others.

So here is a simple viewpoint. The performance against Burnley was functional and effective. So too at Arsenal and – but for a rare Jordan error – we should have had a well deserved and earned point.

Last Saturday was the best performance of the season against a sloppy and disjointed Chelsea. Under the lights, a great atmosphere and a terrific Beto goal. It bodes well but, at the moment, it is the exception not the norm.

Let's see if the standard is maintained to season end or if we slip back to frustrating inconsistency and if we remain a bit of a tough watch. Perhaps that may be the better time for true reflection.

In the meantime, keep those incisive and combative posts coming if only for my entertainment and amusement.

My conclusion? Be careful what you wish for. Moyes out? Heaven help us all. Results will dictate rather than performance. Maybe, just maybe, we are a couple of forward-thinking flair players and a goalscorer away from a Moyes solution. Oh for Coleman, Baines and Lukaku or Saha.

Have the values of Armstrong, Ndiaye, Garner, Iroegbunam, Dewsbury-Hall, O'Brien increased this season?

I think you're similar to me in a lot of ways, Ian, because even though we both lean in slightly opposite directions with regards Moyes, I also think we can both see the pros and cons, even though I'm sure certain posters usually only read the cons, before nailing us down one side!

Eric, Dibling was a bargain and will prove so. The coaches and managers at Southampton totally disagree with your assertions and rate him as highly as any player to go through their system. I doubt any of them would feel they mugged us off.

Dibling has struggled under the defence first approach under Moyes as he did with Juric. It's ironic that we haven't seen him in a game like the Chelsea one as I would expect it would have been tailor-made for him.

Moyes has us 8th right now but, as Steve has pointed out, we have sacrificed both cups and the development of all of our youth to do so.

Therefore, it is important to judge Moyes in May as, if he succeeds in finishing Top 8, then he has succeeded in overachievement and can argue his methods, his football, his value in experience and concentration on the league has borne fruit.

However, if we finish 10th, which is par for this squad, then these chronic failures should determine his fate as he will have achieved nothing while incidentally being detrimental to the squad in many ways.

Moyes, by his approach, expects to be judged by his results only -- and he therefore has to live or die by them. This talk of progression or where we finished last season is irrelevant.

We have a squad full of different qualities with game changers and defensive cover from the bench. This is night and day from last season.

I will also defend Moyes or TFG on the investment being made as, while not all have made the impact some would like, I don't feel any will prove terrible buys.

For example, Alcaraz will probably leave in the summer due to Dewsbury-Hall and Armstrong if the manager stays. His contributions, especially against Palace and Bournemouth, will have been important and his skillset is unique to this squad which should have been utilised more.

Even if sold, he will undoubtedly return a profit to help shape the squad; he was bought when we currently had no Number 10 at the club.

Finally ,the idea that Moyes has nurtured Armstrong is laughable when you consider he was our outstanding player in pre-season, was farmed out on loan, reluctantly taken back when the tea lady was a candidate for our bench, yet he embarrassed the manager with his displays especially against Villa. Armstrong, luckily for Moyes, fell into his lap.

Seven games to go. It's hero or zero for Moyes in my opinion. Some of those pontificating now have to remember some of them did so under Ancelotti and we know how that turned out.

All apart from Armstrong, academy player, and can't answer on Tim, he only gets the odd appearance.

What is your point?

Has the value decreased on the two strikers?

£57M combined, I believe.

Is Dibling better than Grealish or Ndiaye? We don't know.
Is Aznou better than Mykolenko? We don't know.
Is Dibling better than McNeil? We don't know... but probably, yes.
Is George better than McNeil? We don't know.
Is Patterson better at right-back than O'Brien? Yes, I agree... but it's not a biggie.
Is Rohl better at No 10 than McNeil? Probably.
Should Garner play at No 6? Yes, I agree.
Should Dewsbury-Hall play at No 8? Yes, I agree.
Who should play at No 10? Rohl or Alcaraz when fit -- when everyone is fit?
Who should play at centre-back? O'Brien and Keane while Branthwaite is recovering from injury. Hmm -- tricky for me -- I still think Tarkowski is a big player for us -- he's been immense recently, especially Saturday.
Is David Moyes the right man to develop this young squad? No. I agree. He's done well but he's not the next step.

If we're happy with Top 8, yes. But I'm not.

As an old Baggies mate of mine would sing

Aye, aye, aye aye
Astle is better than Pele
Suggo is better than Eusebio
And Albion should be on the tele

Many, like me, liked the football that we played under Johnny Carey, but alas he didn't win anything. Even Harry Catterick, who took over from Carey, despite winning cups and leagues, wasn't universally liked.

I was critical over Catterick selling Bobby Collins to Leeds who the following year won the PFA Player of the Year award.

Howard Kendall was within a week or so of getting sacked before he appointed Colin Harvey as his first team coach, and that changed everything.

So ,whoever is manager of Everton, there will always be differing views, and whichever side you're on, you tend not to change your views when you have made your mind up.

But whatever our differences over players and managers, we can still create the best atmosphere in any stadium we play in -- and that's far more important than our individual preferences.

Must admit, if that happens again, I'll be bloody furious.

In the meantime, they replaced him with a better player who could have sat on our bench just as well as Dibling is doing.

There's pros and cons to both sides of the age divide with managers. But really it's about ability: yes, a younger manager can relate to a player's life and lifestyle better.

I think Rosenior may have made more TikToks than Moyes, may listen to more rap music than Moyes, but experience is vastly underrated in today's game, and players seem to be quicker to down tools on these younger managers going through bad spells, not believing they have the ability.

The job is still the same, pick the best team, keep players happy, make them better, beat the opposition, until you are in Europe, challenging for all cups, physical fatigue shouldn't come into it.

All the modern language around the game is just deflection to not upset players. Excuses for under-performance in my opinion.

It's the complication of the game that's ruining it.
How do you measure someone's confidence???

I think he should spend more time developing Baines and our own mustard man (Seamus Coleman) so they can take over when he leaves. Is that a good idea?

These views are not just held before we signed him. They have thought so since the age of 16 and are still steadfast in their belief in the player. If you think about the quality that has come through their ranks -- he is considered right up there with the best of them.

This is a constant issue on ToffeeWeb with managers who don't trust a player, rightfully or wrongfully, as they don't show their best under him.

We were told last season that Mangala and O'Brien weren't good enough and, when given the trust and a proper opportunity, they dispelled those fears. This season, McNeil, who has a unique skillset in this squad, was criminally underused and mismanaged and suffered a pile-on on these pages. Dibbling is in the same boat.

This player has been a luxury type player since a young age where football was just so easy for him and his talent shone through. He has to improve the other side of his game -- something Moyes requires first.

You can see he is trying to carry out the manager's instructions but has looked lost and it hasn't helped that, when he has played, he has done so with no overlapping full-back, so has been crowded out and ends up receiving the ball too deep and isolated. When he played with Patterson, he looked a different player.

He is playing with fear if he loses the ball and the manager has openly slated him for not following instructions.

This lad will go right to the top whether here or somewhere else. Don't forget, Grealish went through a similar run of form at Villa when they first went down and this lad had made a bigger impression in his first season than Jack did. Grealish was nearly 22 before he tore up the Championship and this lad has a much better eye for goal than his hero.

This lad will turn out to be our best signing last summer in my opinion.

If only it was that straightforward.

What does divide opinion is the intelligence-insulting drivel spouted by people who want to portray him as the sole reason this club has moved into calmer waters -- "success". Valhalla.

This morning, I spoke to a mate who's well-connected at the club. Leighton Baines's name came up. My mate is not renowned for throwing around bouquets, but he spoke about Baines in the most glowing terms.

I raised the subject of the comments made on here claiming "nobody else has turned this club around" by people like Brian and we both agreed it was stomach churning that people dismissed efforts such as this, insisting it was all down to Ditthering Dave.

I've got to the point were I don't believe these people are Evertonians. I think they are Moyes fans instead -- "Real Madrid"? Fuck me.

I honestly never thought I would see the day when an Evertonian would put the thoughts up of Joe Cole about Beto... Joe fucking Cole????

We were here. We know how badly Moyes has managed Beto... and Barry for that matter. Just as we know he hasn't improved O'Brien or Garner or Ndiaye.

It's sycophantic pap and those spouting it fool absolutely nobody.

I love Marmite but will never like Moyes. Having said that, I appreciate what he's done this time round. There is now a solid foundation for a younger more progressive manager to take over next season.

I think Eddie Howe would be a good fit for Everton.

When people slobber about Klopp's Liverpool or Pep's Man City, I'm sure there's other people supporting them, but the managers the figurehead; it's his head on the line, it's him who's judged.

It's not all him doing everything, of course, but what he's doing, the club, the staff, the board, it looks like we are going in the right direction at the moment (times change quick in football)... wouldn't you agree?

A lot of posters telling us we should be happy with 8th position.

Meanwhile... 7 games to go.

I've never ever seen a thread or heard a discussion or been to a match where Moyes has been solely to blame for a loss. Pickford. Tarkowski, Keane -- all take dog's abuse whether they have cocked up or not.

I even saw a few clowns blame Mykolenko for not being able to grow 5 inches and out-jump a Bournemouth basketball player at the far post when we lost that one.

The Moyes-is-solely-to-blame scenario you are trying to create exists only in your head. You will not be able to find it anywhere else. Whereas you won't even need to leave these pages to see the Moyes-has-turned-it-around-on-his-own shite I'm referring to.

I agree with you on one thing. The manager is the figurehead, but he is only the figurehead.

Anyone who has been posting on this site for any length of time will know I am not prepared to worship at the altar of any mere figurehead.

I think I've seen loads of posts after games slating Moyes, blaming it totally on him, his tactics, selection or game management.

I don't know if you are one of them or not, but there's plenty!

I wasn’t overjoyed when he returned, and I think the squad is fragile, susceptible to a couple of injuries and suspensions derailing the end of the season.

He's (Baines too) getting a tune out of a limited squad.

Will he push us on to win trophies and Champions League qualification regularly? I'm not sure, but there's a much more professional set up at the club with the owners and board, the stadium and upturn in revenues, so he might.

He deserves a fair crack at it, I think, which I don't think some will give him, hence why we are even having this discussion about his position when the team is in the position to challenge for European football.

I didn't say Moyes had done this on his own, and who was it that moved Baines from youth coach to first-team coach?

But you actually say in your post "I don't believe these people are Evertonians". Well, let me tell you I have been watching Everton for over 70 years had a season ticket for well over 50 years and unlike you and some others on here I have been to all our home games.

I don't need you to question my credentials being an Evertonian and how many games have you attended this season, not many as many of your posts state you werent at the game.

You know the saying "people in glass houses..."

That will go down well on here!

Moyes-has-turned-it-around-on-his-own shite

When did I say he did it on his own? The article was snipped together from comments. Not penned as a pure article.

I honestly never thought I would see the day when an Evertonian would put the thoughts up of Joe Cole about Beto... Joe fucking Cole????

It was entire comment on thoughts of Moyes from someone who has been in the game for ages. MK put up Coleman's, so I thought Joe Cole's views were interesting given the managers that he had worked under and had got to the top of the game.

It was also interesting his view on Potter, as that went back to the original article on getting the right person next time around, and indeed that many posters on here had been pro Potter.

Listening to Garner's interview on England duty, he's highly praised Moyes for his and the team's performance, so he must be doing something right.

I disagree with some of his selections, very conservative, and doesn't trust the younger players. But we've come a long way in a season and a half, since he took over, and even though I'm not a Moyes fan, comments saying our improvement is not down to him... well, I totally disagree, credit where it's due.

I am.

Every year, if you are intelligenct enough, you should know more than the year before; it's the reason most organisations are run by elderly leaders.

Experience is what Moyes brings; I don't think anyone can argue with that point... it's more how he goes about winning that is the debate.

I'd prefer to stick with Moyes than some 'wet behind the ears' textbook flash in the pan.

He's experienced.

I agree with you both that Moyes should be given his unreserved kudos were we to finish 8th or higher and with some of the problems you highlighted. However I differ in your unreserved assessment that so far he has done a great job.

For me, that question is still to be answered. Had we lost on Saturday, it could be argued that he had done absolutely nothing as we would have been 10th. But we were excellent and the win or loss at a moment in time should not be the barometer. The final table will be the arbiter.

We went 2 months with only two wins before our latest purple spell. The Newcastle game was touch and go with the momentum dictated by a Pope error and the game won by a worldie from Pickford.

On the other hand, we gave a cheap goal against Arsenal which was a bit fortuitous, that denied us a point. Generally with this manager, it's about nicking points (apart from the Chelsea game), so it's always fine margins. You wouldn't know what will happen next week or the week after whether good or bad.

I think posters are downplaying the importance of our investment in this season. The goal contributions from Grealish, Barry and Dewsbury-Hall have been crucial in deciding tight games. At other times, players like Dibling, Rohl, Armstrong and Alcaraz have been important for Moyes to have.

We have different profiles all over the squad, which we haven't had in years, and players are putting down markers to showcase what they can do.

For example, against West Ham, we were doing quite well apart from the right side where Ndiaye was struggling. Moyes's failure to address it cost us the 3 points but, had he not brought Dibling on to shut it down, I doubt we would have got one.

Last season is irrelevant as he took over from a defeated man who had previously got 48 points without the likes of Ndiaye, Grealish, Dibling, Dewsbury-Hall, Barry and Rohl and had only 14 players of decent quality to choose from.

We are in my view now for the first time in prime position to finish Top 8 and our last month's fixtures would give you great confidence. However, every time when we have opened the door this season we have refused to walk through it... yet, when we look to tail off, we come right back. It's perplexing and infuriating in equal measure.

As I say, Moyes will certainly get the bunting if he deserves it. He has put all his eggs in one basket, let's see how that basket looks when it's finished.

Not sure if you'll have said there was much hope for TW then!

I'll admit to being startled by some of them, particularly your belief that Aznou is better than Myko. You've never seen Aznou play a single minute at left back in an Everton shirt, unless you watched his two appearances in U21 defeats. When he made his sole senior appearance against Sunderland in the FA Cup loss, he subbed in at left mid, not LB. So on what do you base that opinion?

Likewise I'd be very interested to hear exactly what you've seen of Dibling that makes you consider him a starter.

I happen to agree with some of your other opinions, particularly the belief that our best 6-8 combination would be Garner/KDH, which I expect to see next season.

But unlike most here, I truly believe that the debate over Moyes is an empty one. I remain convinced that he has accomplished everything his bosses would have wanted and more, and that barring a highly unlikely crash-and-burn over the last seven games, he will most definitely be in charge next season. What happens after that will depend on what they expect him to accomplish before his contract expires, but for now I believe they will not even consider replacing him.

Of course, I'm the guy who never thought they'd even talk to him about the job in the first place!

Or let's get some uni student who's got a degree in sports science, uses phrases like, "Transitions in to the second phases have us fatigued trying to recycle the ball to improve our xG. "

Tantrum like.

Autographed, if you would. I'd love to read it.

Stop embarrassing yourself. Nobody is impressed with you flashing your credentials. Compared to most people I know, they are not even worth noting.

Also; if you say you have read that I haven't been to the last few matches, you will also know that I have missed them because of surgery. So take you little cheap shots and shove them where the sun don't shine.

I don't just go to home games, so your boast that you have been to more games than me is also a false one.

You protest that you didn't say Moyes has done it all on his own. Really? Is that so? Perhaps you may want to explain paragraph 4 in post 7?

You finish your post saying you expected me to come out firing both barrels at you. Not a chance. I have no interest at all in debating with somebody who can't even countenance the idea that anybody other than St David has brought about our improvement.

Ian Bennett.

There are many other posters on here. All posts are not all addressed to you. There are several people on here, easily named, who have murdered the players. The stadium. The pitch and even the crowd in their rabid defence of Mr Brightside. They know who they are. That's who I was referring to

Two things; Michael was right to put up the views of Seamus Coleman. He is part of our club and therefore knows what he is talking about. People want to hear his views.

Everyone on here knows more than Joe Cole about Beto Not sure why his thoughts on his situation would have any credence at all around these parts.

Just the other side of your get Roy Hodgson post.

All good mate, too old for tantrums!

‘What the hell is a progressive manager exactly?'

Thomas Frank -- according to some.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Darren. The improvement happened as soon as Moyes arrived but it had nothing to do with him and was instead due to a stadium that hadn't opened yet and all the players it could attract. Players that are actually 'shit' compared with the ones that were already here. Although they couldn't buy a win, or score a goal, before Moyes arrival. But this was coincidental.

Our new owners bankrolled a '170 million' pound spending spree on 'shit' players when we already had better ones because they're 'shrewd businessmen' unlike the previous crowd who have thankfully left.

Wtf? You also claim that people that have been season-ticket holders for decades and attend every home game 'aren't actually Everton fans' ?! They must be more mental than you are then.

Someone who will listen and learn from new thinking amongst football coaching?

You will not find me saying ANYWHERE that Moyes had nothing to do with it. You made that up because your argument is piss weak

Nor will you be able to point out where I said it was entirely down to the new stadium. You made that up too - Same reason

The shrewd business men who got the club for a fraction of its true value (without your financial advice) actually put the money up. It was your sweet heart who squandered it,

I stand by what I said. People like you who give no credit to anybody at the club that isn't named Moyes (good luck finding one of yours) are solely Moyes supporters and if you don't like my post then you are perfectly at liberty to glide right past them.

its been established that you are a card carrying Moyes acolyte. Get back to me when You can find something good to say about Everton

Erm, in one of your earlier posts, you claimed that everything 'fell into his lap' and that your cat could have moved us up the table and done better in the cups than he has.

Doesn't sound like giving him much credit to me.

He has no skin in the game on Moyes, and explained what a decent job he is doing, that follows on what Garner, & Coleman said. All qualified opinions id suggest.

Cole has worked under Ericsson, Mourinho, Scholari, Hiddink, Redknapp, Dalglish, Anchelotti Rodgers, & Capello. So he shpuld know what good looks like, and will have a far better knowledge of what goes on at a club like ours, like West Ham, than any fan. I am sure players and agents all chat amongst themselves.

As a successful footballer that has won 50 odd England caps, 3 league titles, 2 fa cups, 1 league cup, I thought he painted an interesting contrast to Potter.

I am sure youll agree with that.

Moyes always seems to be in conversation with baines,more so than any other assistant, it used to be Irvine, but seems he's leaning on baines quite a bit, could he not be the set in his ways manager some have him as ?

Cole is also well versed in the game and now his actual playing game is over and done with he will earn money in other ways than playing— like a lot of other ex. football players.

I’d rather listen to other football fans who know the score about Moyes and Everton than ex footballers who are after money talking about it but know little about the situation.

“I went to see Graham Potter at West Ham and interviewed him – again, a nice guy – but I didn't feel like he was the ‘boss' in the building.

Dave most of the omments above were about Moyes at West Ham. Joe Cole is qualified to talk about that. Joe Cole knows what it's like to play against David Mioyes and how that compares to others.

Joe Cole knows what the supporter expectation is like at a club like everton, or Tottenham or West Ham and how that squares with reality.

I am not claiming he has been to every Everton game. But he will have a fair idea of what is good or bad, and if the players are being maximised. Not that any of his comments cover that either way.

Listen, we know what Moyes produces. We know what he did for West Ham. He's one of those managers who keeps a sturdy ship; it doesn't sink, it's unsinkable,” Carlton Cole quips.

“He's just one of those who builds on what he's got, if he gets the right players.

“Take Beto for instance [scorer of a brace in that 3-0 Chelsea win]. He's starting to get something out of him. I honestly thought he was a lost cause, but it just shows you how good of a man-manager Moyes is. His way might not be for everybody, and it might not look clean on the eye, but he gets the job done."

I don't think there is anything too controversial in that. Only the last paragraph references Everton. And most will have thought beto was a losr cause at some point. He does build on what hes got. He does keep it sturdy/strady/unsinkable.

Turned into a decent thread, good move Michael!

Brian, I think that Howard Kendal 'was universally liked by us Evertonians' for a few years mate.

Kanchelskis, James, Pickford, Grealish, Rooney all targeted for criticism, while limited players who run around a lot are treated with fondness and/or nostalgia.

We love the likes of Niasse, Straq, Doucoure, Mykolenko, Beto - actually I could probably sit down and make 100 players in the last 45 years given the dross we have watched.

It is the Kenwright effect isn’t that it? Measuring value in perspiration and passion rather than talent and ability.

Which one Mike?

A thick ex redshite. Next you’ll be quoting Jamie Carragher.

A legendary thread Ian. Who will ever forget it. You never got enough recognition mate. You could have changed TW for good but you were too much of a visionary for the sluggish unseeing backward-looking herd on here.

You will always be for me Ian the Clive Sinclair C5 of ToffeeWeb.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=122114327144399496&set=pcb.559005380121727

We saw - Beto step in and surprise everyone by scoring goals we didnt expect him to score. Of course we knew that this was not the work of Davey Moyes because he hadnt had time to work with Beto yet. He was simply the beneficiary.

We saw - our team shoot away from danger with Beto's goals being a primary factor, but he was to be the gift horse which Davey boy would stare squarely in the mouth.

We saw - Moyes's influence take a firm grip after a few weeks. the all too familiar big boot up to the isolated striker was back. The leopard had not changed its spots...but Hey ! Beto may have been nullified in his new roll as a performing seal, but a steady stream of low scoring draws (except at Anfield) had us climbing the table - Fuck Beto

We saw - Moyes start the new season trying a new tactic. Dont get me wrong. The big boot stayed (of course it did), but he was trying this innovative new approach. One which entailed some kind of footballing Hokey Cockey with Beto and his new, alternative, Striker. Fuck me.

The stato's (sigh) Tell me their heading stats were the best since football began, Only, Neither one of them ever seemed to find a blue shirt with these numerous headers. Their team mates were miles away.

We saw - That despite some truly lamentable performances by Barry. Beto was to be out in the cold. He'd come second in the performing seal selling plate. He was toast.

We saw - Barry's heading stats go through the roof (acording to those footballing Einsteins) but he was now being mocked by other fans for his inability to adapt to the master plan - The big boot.

None of this mattered. Who cared if we were the ugly duckling of football ? Moyes had gotten us into the lofty heights of top half. He'd scaled the north face of the Eiger. Without a rope.

We saw - Moyes's hand forced. Beto had to be reintroduced. He may not be Gerd Muller. He may be limited, but once into his stride. He does have pace and power. Thats his game and for some strange reason we were playing to his strength. The 60-70 yard cruise missiles which had so upset the faithful seemed to have evaporated. Had the leopard, finally changed his spots ?

We saw - the cultured leighton Baines become increasingly influential

We saw - the interview where our best player told us that Beto had been pleading "every day" for a different type of service to the one which had made him look so abject.

We saw all of that. We don't need to be told by Joe, Carlton, or Nat King for that matter, about how Moyes can take credit for persevering and working with Beto. Especially as we know he tried really hard to sell him.

Listening to our own Moyes fans tell us about how he improved Beto is a bit like listening to them telling us how he improved the current best midfield player in the country by repeatedly playing him at right back. Or how he improved our big Irish center half with untold potential by insisting he plays in a position alien to him.

Moyes has inherited some hugely talented players. These players are no longer saddled with the handicap of playing against much bigger squads with a bare 11/12. Theyre no longer carrying players like Doucourie and Harrison. BUT !!! Their desire to show the world how good they are deserves no recognition at all. Neither does anybody elses... It was ALL down to Moyes. Its because of his amazing ability to improve players beyond recognition that he has had so much...err, Success.

Unadulterated, Sycophantic, Drivel

And for that reason. I'm out

I am this season mate.

I have give more home game tickets away than I've been.

I cant bear the football pruduced, before the last home game where I thought we were very good.

On 143, re-read it again.

The Joe Cole comment that I highlighted were mainly about Moyes time at West Ham. Not Everton. Only 1 paragraph specifically mentions Everton out of 7.

Now I can understand why the clique have rubbished it, as it doesn't fall into narrative that you all like to peddle.

But the idea that 52,000 Everton fans know David Moyes better, is frankly absolute rubbish. Theyre fans, never been involved in the game, and have no idea what is possible or not. We are all looking through the glass window from the outside, with none of us are in the room.

Has Tony Abraham got a better qualified opinion than the rest of us. Of course he has, hes been in the game we haven't.

And with the greatest respect to Tony, he never won 50 odd England caps, 6 major trophies, played under the best modern day managers the game has seen, or moved from a club like West Ham, to Chelsea, to West Ham, to Liverpool and to Villa. Clubs with high expectation and high delivery, and two clubs with high expectations- but usually deliver jot.

I don't for one minute think that there isn't a lot of shit put out by ex players. The fake outrage, the niceties of not rocking the boat, or frankly not giving a shit. But Cole's view on control of the club, stability, taking the club forward with the right players, are all valid assessments that most of the 52,000 would agree with. He doesn't mention playing style once.

Ive no idea myself what the deal is with Beto. And honestly, I am tired of predicting either of those strikers. All I know is we need one of them to step up, as strikers win you games. I tbink the comment was from Carlton Cole, which is premature at best.

John on Osman. Ive come to appreciate him a lot more as ive become older. I think you realise not every player can be Andrei Kanchelskis or any other past favourite.

He played well in a lot of games for us. He probably lacked a bit of pace, and ive no idea whether the early injury had an impact on that.

He probably could have played the Modric, Silva role if you had the right players around him and were a genuine top 4 side that was never in relegation trouble. Was he good enough for that, who knows.

He created and scored some great goals. He received criticism for never being a right winger, and he looked poor when players went past him too easily.

He wasn't seen as the same level of a Joe Cole to link back. But not many were. Mourinho put the straight jacket on him, & turned him into a winner.

That one.

Can I have your derby ticket please?

Jason Mcateer won 50 plus caps.

This is a genuine story.

Mate of mine was out having a pizza with Mcateer and a few teammates.

Waiter to Mcateer "would you like it cut into 4 or 8 slices?"

Mcateer "4 please, I'm not hungry enough to eat 8 slices"

Thats a 100% true story

Instead of your fantasies from your little bitter bedsit - I went to Fuiham LOL. Watch Krapps's last tape lad. Which one of my 6 books would you like me to send to MG if he can find one?

You live in a sad bitter bedsit world lad.

Sunday morning, going slow

I'm talking to the radio

Clothes and records on the floor

The memories of the night before

Out in Clubland, having fun

And now I'm hiding from the sun

Waiting for a visitor

Though no one knows I'm here for sure

Dancing

Laughing

Drinking

Loving

And now I'm all alone in bedsit land

My only home

I think it's time to cook a meal

To fill the emptiness I feel

Spend my money going out

I've nothing in, I'm left without

Clean my teeth and comb my hair

And look for something new to wear

And start the night life over again

And kid myself I'm having fun

Dancing

Laughing

Drinking

Loving

And now I'm all alone in bedsit land

My only home

I look out from my window view

There's really nothing else to do

Read a book, maybe write a letter

Mother, things are getting better

Watch the mirror, count the lines

The battle scars of all the good times

Look around, and I can see

A thousand people just like me

Dancing

Laughing

Drinking

Loving

And now I'm all alone in bedsit land

My only home

Joe Cole considered Leon "the best technical player I played with"

Leon Osman would be perfect for today's game.

A top player used incorrectly imo

Mark, sorry bud it's taken.

CCTV everywhere on the Regents Canal lad and my Islington summer life.

You would know that if you spent a week in N London Philly.

Drink through a straw?

Best example I could probably use is Dermot Fucking Gallagher, hosting ref watch. Try and protect your mates, in the game, say the right things and keep getting fucking paid!

My oldest son probably impresses me as much as anyone when I listen to him talking about football, specifically Everton, and yet my stepson, who is a professional footballer, will never talk about the game, unless it’s brought into the conversation and even then he says very little.

Darren is an argumentative fucker but when he starts talking about football, he his definitely worth listening to, especially when he talks about Everton.

Is this urban legend, just plain fantasy, or has there been a lot of foul play at work?

I used to enjoy watching Arteta, Osman and Pienaar, playing together, and whilst I thought that those other two players gave a little more value to the overall level of the team, I don’t think I’ve seen many Everton players, with a better first touch than Leon Osman.

Someone saw fit to play him as a track back wide man.

He played for Moyes for years without any recognition whatsoever and yet the minute he played for Martinez, he was getting called up by England!!!!

But I never thought he had a "best position" because he didn't really fit the profile for either #10 or outside mid.

I read an article from a young, upcoming manager on his favoured formation.

"i don't have one, it depends on the formation of the opposition."

I thought Ossie lacked the quick ball skills and physical presence to be a classic #10, and didn't have the pace for the wing. Which did you think he was?

Which classic No 10s have physical attributes?

Only a fool would repeatedly pick him to play as a trackback wide midfielder.

Of course, you had all-time greats at No 10 who did have the physical attributes: Maradona, Zidane, Bergkamp... they could look after themselves.

Ossie lacked those characteristics. Given the ball in a congested area, he couldn't keep it. He'd be easily pushed off the ball or have it knocked away. Yes, he was an exceptional passer -- but only given space.

He was definitely misplaced as a trackback wide man, but I sympathized with Moyes's dilemma in finding the right place for him. He didn't easily fit any of the roles in the system.

I always felt that he'd have done better in a system that deployed a deep-lying midfielder to spread the ball around and arrive late in the box for shots. Like that incredible Larissa goal. One of the greatest shots I've ever seen a Blue hit.

You can't have it both ways.

Then I cast my mind back to Tony Hibbert getting roasted in the roasting hot sun at Wembley in the biggest game of David's managerial career.

Sorry, mate, but both times Osman was called up for England, in late 2012 and early 2013, his manager was still David Moyes.

I might be in a minority of a few, Mike, but I actually enjoyed the last season of Moyes 1.0, probably more than most of his other years. We played some fantastic football, we were in the top three at Christmas, but once again having a small squad had already worked against us before February was out.

I remember losing at Norwich, it looked like Moyes, was once again flogging dead horses, then we had that absolutely disastrous FA Cup Quarter-final at home to Wigan, which was probably the final straw for a lot of people.

We finally came 6th, which was very disappointing, because earlier on, the season looked to be offering a lot more but I still thought we played some very good football that season, and was made up for Leon Osman when he finally got himself a senior England cap.

Few things to note:-

He could shoot
He had good close control
He could head a ball
He was courageous.

Leon Osman's 58 goals for Everton FC

He was probably better than he was given credit for by most people, because he wasn't particularly fast or strong, but looking at some of his goals, he was very technical and had superb feet.

I'm not sure what Sunderland fans thought about him but I definitely know what Man Utd fans thought about him. His time in Spain I know little about except he didn't last long.

As for ex-footballers and their comments about footballers, I used to phone Graeme Sharp up at Everton after nearly every home game at Goodison and we'd have some debates about the merits of the game. Any criticisms he had were spoken in a very low voice, which told me he didn't want to be heard by whoever was in the room with him.

I understood that, and I also understood that many of the opinions of footballers and pundits, like politicians, are entirely different in public than when they are said in private.

Thanks for the clip, Laurie.

You can form your own view on Southall and Sharp post-retirement. It is another that needs putting to bed.

I think Ossie in his late 20s was able to compensate for his lack of power by sheer nous, and Gareth Barry like, he knew where to stand and where to put the ball.

But, no matter how two-footed you are, if you don't have that burst of speed, or wizardry on the ball, you're never going to be a game-changer who makes the opposition worry about you. He just didn't hurt teams enough.

I really liked Leon as a player but I don't think when the opposition saw his name on the team sheet, they thought, "Oh fuck!"

They just think "thank fuck"!

Most people are suggesting Leon was a "shite" winger.

Surely that's an opposition full-back's wet dream?

He's 44.

What I said. "was"

Is there a translator in the house mate?

I thought the post mentioning Illy would have nodded you in.

I'm on a downer after Ireland's defeat tonight.

When we talk about past Everton players, I tend to pigeonhole them into the era they were playing in.

How many past Everton players would play in today's game... que mate?

Can we please buy Troy Parrott for the love of God and forget all about Delap?

Back then, he built a squad from buttons that was in the top seven 8 times out of his 11 full seasons (1 x 4th, 2 x 5th, 2 x 6th and 3 x 7th -- these days, all likely European spots), and had only one relegation challenging 17th early on in that period (2003-04).

In his second coming, he has already steered us away from several years of flirting with the drop once more to a mid-table finish in his first part-season, and is on track for a European challenge once again.

To be honest, given where we've been for most of the decade he was away, I think this is reason enough to build the guy a statue, never mind trying to get him out.

I'm not for a minute trying to say we should be happy with 7th place finishes as a club, but there's got to be some context for where we've actually been for the ~40 years since 1987-88 and that is decidedly not among the elite clubs.

We missed the Premier League boat when others invested big cash and were just more professional, and now we're competing to get back into the Top 4-5 who are competing for Champions League and trophies each year.

With the Friedkins and the Hill Dickinson Stadium, we've got half a chance of doing that, but behind the scenes and in terms of clout and spending power, we're still a way off Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Man Utd and Liverpool.

First step is to get ahead of the chasing pack and into Europe, then we continue to strengthen the squad and put the foundations in place for loftier ambitions. I can't think of anyone better than Moyes to do this.

What success was that, Chris?

Sone of them might not have been old enough or born Chris.

The last successful period that I can remember is 1984-87 mate.

I'm glad that you feel confident about Saint Daniel the Silent and TFG.