Not What We Expected?

Although you do have some points (ie with Arsenal falling apart), I really do not remember that at any time Kenwright or Wyness stated that it would be a free stadium. Only that it was a very attractive offer in terms of finance.

I do agree that this states one of our biggest problems/frustrations: what does "a very attractive offer" mean, what are the financial consequences of staying at goodison etc etc? No clear answer or even any answer at all from the club at that point. But to say the club claimed the Tesco-Dome would be free, frankly I think that’s just not true. You can take those guys on on points which are actually true, no need to make vague arguments, Tony.

I would say 30 million for a new stadium is a good deal. Or should we be given a free one somehow? Come on.

The fact of that matter is well publicised, that we spunked this seasons transfer money LAST season on AJ et al.

Personally, I think we can wait until September...if we want to finish in the bottom half of the table. We need players now. Read for when the first team start pre-season training

I fully agree, Tony, with the basic ’Get it right on the pitch and the rest will follow’ - and, no, this doesn’t mean do it the Leed’s way -. Why is this simple premise so hard for the football people who run our club to understand?

Jeremy, that may have been the case with last Summer’s money but what are we doing with what’s left of our latest season’s winnings and the Sky money? Surely not paying off more of our "sustainable loan" and holding back 30 million for what is allegedly a ’depends on the vote’ expenditure?

I have to say that Tony has summed up how I feel too. I am not hitting the ’panic button’ yet but i am not far off it; i’m certainly looking at it long and hard.

We have to get it right on the pitch this year. For me, 3rd AND 4th place are up for grabs this season and I would rather risk not getting a new stadium to have a go at the league; Give me Goodison with a great team, Champions League football (certainly regular UEFA) over Kirkby with mid-table mediocraty any day of the week.

I believe that this would lead ultimately to silverware and then comes a nice shiney new stadium/refurbishment of the Old Lady part funded by the club through success and part funded by a nice sponsor with money to burn on a successful team (Arsenal?).

SUCCESS = MONEY = SUCCESS

Success must come first unless you are Chelsea!!

COYB

Surely it’s a question of balance.It’s unlikely that a £25-30M bond to secure the new stadium-which very definitely will not be a ’shit-heap’ as Marsh suggests-will preclude the Board from making available £10-12M for transfers.Now that may not be enough to satisfy the ’spend,spend,spend’brigade but Davey has proved before that he is a dab hand at the ’silk purses’game,and we can be pretty confident he wont have lost his touch.
Surely he has done enough in a brief five years to merit our faith and trust!

Richard, you are so complacent, are you actually awake this early?

we need far, far more than £10-12m spent on players to be able to sustain our position. Even if we only pay 2-3m per player £10/12m would get us more than 5 average players, two or three of which we can hope will make the grade, maybe one turn out to be an outstanding bargain.. plus whatever loans and frees come in.

We are desperately short of class in the midfield and have a lack of cover in defence.

None of the players brought in last season could be describes as either cheap or a sow’s ear in the first place.. which players exactly has DM converted into silk purses? I think his record is pretty hit and miss (like most other managers to be fair) but tio tie his hands by underfunding team improvement could prove a damaging error of judgment by your loved one.

I can understand your frustration Tony but as usual the lack of transparency from the Everton board speaks volumes. We have no solid facts regarding the new ground move apart from the fact that it’s the only offer on the table!

The silence is deafening but and it’s a big BUT, would you consider the players currently on offer or those that have moved to other clubs good value? Hence if we had have bought Mr Barton and paid him £60k+ a week how long do you think the que to David Moyes office would have been? The overinflated prices are forcing the clubs hand to either look at youngsters in the lower leauges or cheap alternatives in other countries. For a club with a wage cap that is unfortunately how they have to operate.

I would also like to see some transfer action like last years swift moves but the new TV money have fucked things up again. I know most Evertonians myself included may be fretting at the moment but give the management until the start of pre-season training to get some more bodies in before really hitting the panic button! COYB!

Tony, Tony, Tony, whats the point giving dithering davey-boy any spends?
He’s not good enough to manage everton is he?
Thats what you tell us, now suddenly he’s got your backing to gatecrash the champions league?
Surely you would get more satisfaction from a davey-out campaign to pass the summer-months.

Back to the main grasp of your post(thanks for the name-check ducky!)
...........err...oh thats right,
you want, more money, more transfers....and your not best pleased with big bill.
I think Ive read it before somewhere.

John theres no point in me waging a Moyes out campaign any more.Moyes is here as long as he wants to be and I know that for a fact because Kenwright told me so himself.

The question is no longer do I want Moyes out but do I want Everton to compete and move forward regardless of who the manager is.Without proper funding and backing from the board any manager will fail at Everton.

If Kenwright can not provide the neccesary requirments he should go.

Boys, boys, boys. Take it easy. I’m quite sure in the next week players will be bought.
We cannot go splashing our thin cash pile on anything that can kick a football - just to ’strengthen’ our squad. Moyes is a sensible individual who knows exactly how much he has got and will not pay over the odds for greedy £60+ a week players who will upset the balance of our team spirit.
Just remember who we were 4-5 years ago...
We are now in the UEFA cup and now your saying forget it!!
Some of you people get on my tits!

This thread is getting boring!Whilst I don’t share Doddy’s blind faith in Moyes,the man has done enough to demonstrate that he can get maximum value from players whilst managing on a tight budget.Everton’s team spirit is second to none and the seige mentality,whilst not attractive to watch,has brought splendid results to date.
Let’s face it we ain’t gonna win anything next season but even with the existing players we should be able to maintain a place in the top half of the Prem -no small feat,ask the money bags West Ham and Newcastle!
If £30M has to be put aside to get the key to the Tescodrome so be it-what a bloody bargain that will be!

I think Moyes is good enough to manage Everton but its the whole transfer side of his managerial technique that has us up in a heap (as usual).
There may be plenty of deals in the works but we’ve all heard before about ’Everton’s Valuation of players does not match the team who’s selling them.’, etc.
That, to me, seems to be a nice way of saying either there’s little or no funds being made available, or Moyes simply refuses to pay even a little over the odds for anyone. Now granted he’s made some shrewd buys but this year we’ve apparently been ’priced out’ of the race for Nugent. That is a scary thought.
If we can’t afford to pay a bit over the odds for him, how can we afford anyone half decent at all?? Its hard to know how much of this is BK and how much of it is Moyes. Is there just no money there or are we seeing an extreme version of the ’we’ll not be taken for a ride in the transfer market’ attitude?

Regardless of the reasons behind it, the reality is the same - Nugent, who seemed to be a dead lock, is now it seems destined for Sunderland or Portsmouth; there’s been no word on Koumas, and if we can’t afford even him or Nugent, then someone like Yaya Toure is just dream, and in all probability we’ll end up with Jagielka and maybe two or three other above average players to bulk up the numbers - and that’s all.

Maybe I’ll be eating my words in a couple of weeks but right now it feels like we are failing in the transfer market and that a charge in the UEFA cup, never to mind a run at 4th spot in the Premiership, is slipping away from us long before the season even starts.

And this does really feel like a make or break year and transfer window. With so many mid table teams getting money to spend it will be even tighter next year, and we could miss out on the best opportunity we’ve had in years to pull away from that chasing pack.
Worrying times. Let’s hope I’m wrong!

Tony, we both want everton to compete and move forward.
Whilst my patience marks me out as an apologist, let me just say I’m every bit as passionate as anyone on here, and I get just as livid at events at goodison.
I cant count the number of radios that have met their demise due to a late opposition’s goal.
And whilst I try not to be one of those that compares things to the smith era, during that time maybe I had my spirit crushed a little too often.
I went from thinking moyes was fantastic, to telling anyone who would listen we need to fuck him off(for about three months three year ago.).
Now I find myself looking at the broader picture, and being patient.
I’m not panicking about transfers, but I am concerned.
I cannot see that there is enough evidence that we will be unprepared for the new season, at least not enough to motivate me to complain in mailbags etc.
Yet for some reason I find myself inherently motivated to defend the club, I guess that streak is what marks us apart, whilst I see the failings of the club, I try to understand the reasoning.
That doesnt mean that I invent reasons or excuses, but for the majority of the big decisions by both manager and chairman, I can pretty much ’get’ where there coming from.
YET there are undoubtedly disengenius machinations from time to time, as with almost all of his counterparts.
But I am no longer someone who feels better, or wants to spend their energy getting negative and ranting about it.
I dont believe it makes any difference anymore unfortunately.
The moneys too strong.
So I focus on what I love about the club, and the bottom line is, on the whole I’ve enjoyed the ride for the last few seasons.
nil satis.....and all that like, but its a motto, and its a romantic throwback that cannot possibly be maintained throughout the entire existence of the club.
So theres troughs and peaks, and hopefully were on a journey that will lead us to reclaim that motto.
But unrealistic ideals, as a bottom line for an argument, is a blind observation.

Sad to say, I reckon Gerry Ullathorne has it about right.I no longer EXPECT Everton to win ANYTHING in my lifetime (hopefully 30 years to go atleast!)because the way the game is going we can expect the Scottish ’two clubs win it all’model to become the norm down here.However,I do look forward to our new ground-even if it’s not ideally located -and a regular slot in the top half and the odd trip abroad.
Tony’s passion as an Evertonian may well outstrip mine but hey!,I bet enjoy being one a lot more!

Doddy would you be willing to move to Kirby yourself? Sell up in Formy and move sticks to the non-shitholedom that beckons?

I don’t think so. No disrespect to those who live in Kirby, I still have family there but to say it’s the bee’s knees is bollocks.

These key issues need resolving,take note Mr Kenwright:Arteta?s contract - can we match his ambition and wage demands, is he really going to stay?Ground issue - when is this saga going to end,its really starting to p1ss everyone off,Signings - Match Moysies ambition, he doesnt need crazy money,just enough to bring in a bit of extra quality to add to what weve got e.g. like he did with Lescott, Arteta, Cahill etc,Investment-How come all the sh1te below us can attract investors e.g. West Ham,City, Newcastle and we cant, if you love the club Bill move over. Failure to secure investement will mean these clubs taking over us, but if we do invest a little we can compete effectively in the league, cups and in Europe for years to come and finally Beattie - please fcuk him off!

Never thought I’d come to say it but the only voice of sanity in this thread is Doddy’s.I reckon he’s read it right and his views of moderation espouce those of most sensible Evertonians.
Do the so called experts on here genuinely believe they know more about running a football club than Kenwright and David Moyes?For gawd’s sake get real!

dont push the panic buttons yet. so we arent buying yet. everton have been known to keep their cards close to their chest in terms of finance and transfers. so we havent bought Nugent and probably won’t. he may not be the answer. what does he have more than AJ or Vaughan. its not even fair to say hes better in the air because vaughan is excellent in that area. Jagielka will sign soon enough (we expect) so there’s one signing. wouldnt be suprised if our efforts are aimed towards Fernandes at the minute an thats why we seem inactive in the market. if thats the case so be it. as we know moyes will only buy about 2 or 3 major players. he always does. in time we’ll get champions league consistantly and BK will probably leave once we move stadium. rumours now suggest walton may be our new site.

Tony, you lost me completely at ’Forget the crappy Uefa Cup’.

I couldn’t take anything else you wrote seriously (not that I agreed with any of it in the first place) after that.

Bet you wouldn’t have been calling the UEFA Cup ’crappy’ 5 years ago. A competition that we’ve only been good enough to qualify for twice in the past 17 years and you’re dismissing it as ’not worth our team’ - now that’s funny.

No-one knows how much Moyes has to spend - him not buying anyone at the moment isn’t necessarily indicative of having lack of funds. As for the stadium move, what will be will be. To be honest, I’ll be glad when a conclusion is reached and why either move or we don’t. I’m sick of the prophets of doom wittering on. Many of these same people have us down for relegation battles every pre-season, so it’s hard to take their concerns totally seriously.

Unconcerened Blue bury your head in the sand if you must but some of us still have nightmares over the 2005 European campaign which was a complete shambolic disaster.

Do you know why?We didnt sign any one thats why and we went in to battle against Villareal using James fucking Beattie as a lone striker. Now with a chance to push on this season we are seeing
the same thing happening again.

Like it or not the Eufa isnt our main concern this season.The battle for 4th place is the big one but we wont get any where in any competition unless we buy and buy soon.By the way what the fuck has 5 years ago got to do with anything thats going on now. Go on say it Moyes is better than Smith.

Yes Bill should go because there’s a long line of people waiting to give us their money....

Oh David the old chestnut "no one wants to buy the club", who knows whether its true or not as only BK chooses to say but given the investments in virtually every other team in the premiership the flashing neon **fuck off** sign must be firmly nailed to the door at Goodison.

Dear Geoff
Not another ’get real’ ffs. We don’t need to be ’so called experts on here’ to understand that Success = Money; name me a successful side that’s gone under? Get the playing side sorted and the rest WILL follow

While it’s too early to press the panic button, it’s equally futile to wait with it until September.

Pressing it when the pre-season starts and no new faces are around seems a sensible compromise.

Tony, when did you meet Bill so he could tell you Moyes was here as long as he wants to be?

I wish you’d have told Kenwright to fuck off then when you had the chance!

Tony, you refer to the 2005 European campaign as ’a complete shambles’. Let me address your points, as I appear to have a better memory of that summer than you.

First all, we did ’sign somebody’. In the summer 2005 transfer window we spent £17.3m on 6 players - Davies (£3.5m), Kroldrup (£5m), Arteta (£2m to make his loan permanent - which funnily enough highlights a- what a bargain he was; and b- what an exorbitant fee Benfica are charging to make Fernandes’ loan permanent in almost identical circumstances), Neville (£3.5m), Valente (£1.5m), Van Der Meyde (£1.8m). Of those, clearly Arteta and Neville were the only ones not mistakes. An argument could be made Valente was valuable too. The others were complete flops. Moyes also signed 2 more players - Pistone on a free (another flop, due to unfortunate injury) and Ferrari (on a season loan - ultimately another flop). So we signed 8 players that summer. Kind of makes you claims of us ’not signing anybody’ somewhat laughable.

Secondly, you deride our efforts against Villareal (only that seasons CL semi-finalists), singling out Mr Beattie in particular. Didn’t Beattie score a great goal against Villareal at home and play extremely well that night?

As for your claims regarding our aims for this coming season. You may think ’Arsenal are there for the taking’ following the sale of Henry. They were without Henry for most of this past season and still finished 10 points ahead of us. We’re not exactly on their shoulders as we are with Spurs. Getting 4th place will be extremely difficult without spending close to £30m. But even if we had the money - who is out there? The same players West Ham and Spurs are looking for, and dare I say, Liverpool? Clubs who can pay huge wages?

Finally, you ask ’what does 5 years ago have to do with anything’? I’ll tell you. It’s seems utterly ridiculous to disregard a European cup competition as ’crappy’, given that we have never won it, very rarely qualified for it, and only got past the 1st round once in three attempts (after beating some Irish part timers 10-0). Even then we lost in the next round against Dukla Prague. 5 years ago we were in yearly relegation battles and European hopes were a distant dream. It would be nice to enjoy a bit of the dream now that we’ve realised it, before dismissing it as beneath us. Lets learn to walk before we try to run eh? I realise patience is a virtue that many Evertonians are lacking right now (be it transfers, finances, stadiums, European football competitions that are suitable for Everton) but it would be nice if we all at least tried to practice some.

I can understand everyone?s frustration about the lack of transfer activity and the hoo hah about the Tesco dome or whatever you want to call it. The fact is we are improving both on the pitch and as a club. No one can deny we have become a better football team since Moysey has come in being one of only 2 clubs since the premiership began to finish in the top 4. What else cannot be denied is that since Bill K has taken over that the business has stabilised and is steadily, yes steadily moving forward. When you look at the years of decline we endured throughout the nineties and the up and down relegation rollercoaster rides we have had to put up with along with the sticky tape piecing our season tickets together after we defiantly ripped them up and waved them at the board. Everton are moving forward that?s a fact. It may not be fast enough for some people it may be too fast for others ( I jest).
If Kirkby is the next stage of our evolution so be it. Liverpool County Council (The custodians of Liverpool City or was it Liverpool FC) have dallied for too long and allowed this to happen. In business decisions have to be made and the exclusivity agreement was a must if the Kirkby plan was to be investigated. I personally believe there won?t be any other decision being taken and we will be moving to Kirkby. I like everyone else would like Everton to remain in the city but you have to look at the possibility of funding the project, which would do that. Do we wait for a white knight to come and save us? I have been reading with interest the arguments being put forward by members of KEIOC and very noble they are. But facts are fact. The ground cannot be built by faith alone and by protestations or even by having a vote. I have dallied myself and switched from one side to the other and I have finally made my decision (I think ). If the future is decided by KEIOC and Goodison gets rebuilt fabulous, if Kirkby is the deal, well don?t shout at Blue Bill, he is making a business decision for Everton, that?s his job. We are at the cusp of a new era for Everton Football club and I have come to the decision that I am going to embrace it

Van De Meyde, Davies, Koldrup,
Arteta was already here and no striker Brought in.. As I said we signed no one that pre season.

We’re all arguing amongst ourselves again. There’s some truth in what Tony says, but he spoils it with the anti UEFA Cup rant. We can do well in both the League and Europe - Spurs have just proved it and they had good Cup runs at home as well. However, they do have a decent, bigger squad than us and that is the best point Tony is making. Basically, we just have to have greater strength in depth.

As for Kirkby, I no longer trust BK at all on this, but for a testament to his amateurish ways, I think it’s very telling that Ian Ross and Wyness admit that the only consultation with fans has been reading Toffeeweb’s poll from earlier this year and talking to a few shareholders! Market Research anyone?

Basically, I think Moyes is a hero for putting up with these jokers around him. He’s done wonders for our Club in the face of adversity, Boardroom sillines 3 Summers ago,bogus Investment promises from BK, balancing the transfer spend with just as much in sales, Rooney, Radzinski and others stabbing him in the back etc. Quite possibly, he puts up and shuts up for his million a year, but maybe he looks at us, turning up in our thousands come what may, whatever bullshit BK and his Aderdonian chum come up with, sees our passion and wants to build a great team for us. He’s half way or more there, now - and if he ever does it, it will be some achievement in view of the BK circus that we all suffer.

I agree with the previous unconcerned Blue; Five years ago we would have loved to be in the position we are now. (A sign of where BK and DM have taken us, some might argue). Tony, where we were five years ago is a point in which have some guide as to what progress we have made. How can progress or improvement ever be measured without reference or comparison to the past?

Hopefully over the next five years we are UEFA cup regulars - perhaps fighting our way into Champions League postions (by perhaps winning the UEFA cup itself or doing well domestically.

It would be my wish in five years time to be regular Champions League contenders.

I don’t fully understand why some people think we are anywhere near competing, particularly to the point at which we’d make serious money, in the Champions League.

Alex K

Mick Mac.

I find my self arguing all the time over these subjects but lets have it right it is not kenwright who stabilizied our club but the Sky money. Kenwright took over just before the boom began and has touched very lucky. Given what Everton have earned from the Sky payments any of us could have done what BK has done.

Running the club without any money of his own and relying on Murdoch handouts isnt that clever really is it? It's the Sky money that saved us and not BK's brains. If BK was that that cute he wouldn't have fucked up Kings Dock for £30 million, would he?

Tony: ’As I said we signed no one that pre season’.
Davies - signed May 26, 2005
Koldrup - signed June 22, 2005
What are you talking about Tony? Are you that desperate that you’ll ignore factual evidence? As desperate as we all are to forget Davies and Kroldrup, both were signed pre-season.
As for Arteta, if we hadn’t have spent that £2m he would not have signed for us.

Tony,

So all this time Kenright has been lucky? Or Unlucky? And over-simplifying the Kings Dock saga to suit your non-arguement is a bit lazy.

Seems to me Tony that a lot of other clubs have recieved the same Sky money as Everton have and look what they have done. West Ham, Newcastle, Charlton, Villa, Wigan (Wigan have been backed by Whelan ) , Middleboro etc etc. In the years since David Oyes has come we have reached 7tu 4th 17th, 11th and 6th. If that was a school report I think you would be pleased. Not extatic but pleased. I perosnally think we are going in the right direction and I think if you want to rant about Bill K thats your perogative. I choose to support what he is doing and that is my choice. Choices about players is up to Moysey and his management team. Just as an aside, I beleive Blue Bille got the money for the Kings Dock project, but was scuppered by the Liverpool supporting council members to cover a contingency of pretty much the same amount. Yes I know there has been smokescreens and I know the Fortress fund was a gimmick to prevent Paul Gregg taking over the club. But here we stand in Europe again, not the champions league I agree. But Europe all the same. I am so looking forward to next season. With or without Phil Jagielka

Tony, I think you call it right more often than not and I certainly agree with this article.

You don’t have to continue to defend your position in the subsequent comments section!