The Final Chapter

Oh Peter, you are so, so right on every count. What amazes me is that a frightening (IMO) section of our support simply cannot tune-in to what you are saying. There really doesn't appear to be too much middle ground on this issue amongst Blues: they're either fiercely against Kirkby or they simply cannot fathom the basis of the objection and then they swallow the whole package because "we need a bigger ground, we can't afford to do it ourselves and even if we could, Goodison can't be redeveloped."

I said last week on these boards that Everton going to Kirkby will be a betrayal of its heritage, class, dignity and style (what other club has effectively allowed itself to be shunted out of its home and has scurried away with its tail between its legs?). I guess, though, that the argument about the after effects of moving to Kirkby is a bit like those culturally divisive debates that do the rounds on everything from Monty Python to The Smiths, The Office, Tracey Emin and some of Piccasso's weirder moments: you either get it or you don't.

I have given up trying to persuade the (benign) pro-Kirkbyites about the pitfalls that lie ahead 5, 10, 20 and 30 years down the line because they simply cannot conceive what the future may hold. I do not criticise these fans for their viewpoints and in a way I'm a little jealous of them that they're so gung-ho (and I do wonder - sometimes - whether my mindset hampers or shackles me from imagining the riches that could lie in wait for us). But I also wonder how their Evertonian experience (I'm 40 - I first went in 1972) can be so different from mine and how they can so casually disregard my conviction that we need to firmly anchor ourselves within the city of Liverpool.

Gillett is a smart cookie and Peter, that is exactly why he informed Parry that the plans were gonna be re-drawn. At a stroke, it will decimate their legendary - but real - waiting list which is populated by lots of young scousers; and that is how they'll "reclaim" the kop because very soon, circa 2011, the scouse-vs-daytripper ratio at the New Pit will have swung back to 60-40 in favour of locals.

So with a new wave of satan worshippers guaranteed for at least a generation or two, it doesn't take too much working out, does it, as to which team the younger kids in the city - especially those who have no paternal influence - will gravitate towards? Everton will be effectively out-of-sight and out-of-mind for many.

For instance, I grew up in Broadgreen. I've since lived in Walton and now I'm in Aintree. In all those years I could count on one hand the number of times I went to Kirkby. It's not somewhere I ever needed to go to. It's somewhere that I by-passed on a thing called the M57. I don't know my way around it, even now. It has played almost a zero part in my life. Why? Because it's beyond Liverpool, that's why. Because I've never worked or lived there, I've never needed to go there. I don't just happen to seamlessly pass upon Kirkby in the same way that I do Sefton/Bootle (Crosby even) or the parts of Knowsley that start around the Pilch Lane, Bowring Park, Page Moss, approaches to the M62 area. A bit like Formby, if I want to go to Kirkby then I have to make a conscious decision to go.

Argue all you like about the undeniable Scouseness of Kirkby people but there's a big geographical disconnect on both of the main approaches to it (after Gilmoss on the Lancs there's a real sense of being sorta in the middle of no man's land until Kirkby starts; similarly as you get beyond the Copplehouse there's a load of fields, a roundabout and a Mway bridge and then Kirkby starts).

It's not about the fact that it's outside the political boundaries per-se (Man Utd don't give a toss about being in Salford because it's so close to the City of Manchester - in fact OT is well walkable to from the centre) because it wouldn't bother me if Everton asked for The Mons area in Bootle to be bulldozed in order to build a ground there. It's a visibility thing. It's a conectivity thing.

You could make the same argument about Birkenhead: for the people there are undeniably Scouse-focused in the same way that Kirkbyites are but we know that it's not Liverpool because there's a dirty big disconnect that separates us called the Mersey. Similarly with Kirkby.

In marketing terms its madness, sheer madness, for EFC to upsticks to the outskirts of a so-called "city region" just as that self-same city is enjoying a European-focused regeneration on every front and finally seems to be getting its lardy-jax into gear after 40 years of doldrums.

Finally (because I really could go on) just a thought about Wyness' constant assertion that Kirkby is only 3.5 miles from Goodison. Is it really? I live Black Bull-ish area and I know that's around 2 miles from Goodison. I also know that it's another 1.5 miles to Holy Name Church in Fazak. And Kirkby is at least another 2 miles from there as you head past the Copplehouse. Going the other way, it's a mile from Goodison by the time you reach Littlewoods Pools. Is he saying it's only 2.5 miles from there to Kirkby? For example, it's 6 miles from town to the Rocket.

Like I said earlier, things like boundaries and mileage (to an extent) are irrelevant. It's the visibility which is important. It's the inter-connectivity factor. But it makes you wonder why Wyness is being creative with his distances and seizing any chance to shave off even half-a-mile here and there. Doesn't it? Or does it? Because might it just be that he knows, deep down, that Kirkby is really so near, yet so, so far.

WHAT A LOAD OF GARBAGE WORST ARTICLE EVER ON TOFFEE WEB! ONCE A BLUE ALWAYS A BLUE1 {EXCEPT IF YOUR WAYNE ROONEY!} We are talking four miles hear with a motorway network to get to a ground easier than Goodison which is now overshadowed by the new stadium to be built. The City council have done this ALLOWING MORE SEATS AT A WHIM for Mr Gillette, they have done sod all for us! If we choose to move to Kirkby or anywhere else any TRUE Evertonian will follow. As for the Liverpool stadium how much will a season ticket be? I doubt Benethus will survive under these two ruthless business men! If he fails to deliver they are in it for money & I have not seen any of it being splashed around as yet!All the money spent at LFC & they won nothing & ended up ten points better than us & sold their souls 90 million of debt by the way to the USA!

Great article Peter, could not agree more with your comments and would like to add a few of my own.

I think E.F.C. are in a situation of managed decline-a situation that sometimes arises when a business considers a decision, with the best of intentions, and looks clearly at the likely intended consequences of their actions but doesn?t look as clearly at the likely unintended consequences.

Your article was spot on in looking at a few of those unintended consequences and highlighted well how the new owners over the road (how long will I be able to use that phrase?) have considered the likely consequences of our move and positioned themselves ready to cash in.

Whilst its true that most of us don?t have any real information about the content of the boardroom discussions, its common practice for most businesses considering a major decision to carry out a cost versus benefit analysis and weigh the likely future benefits against the predicated cost needed to realise those benefits. The board, in this case, seems to have looked at future benefits against current cost but don?t seem to have looked at the future cost. Peter?s article stated clearly a major likely future cost in erosion of the fan base. This cost would easily be considered by most businesses-will being in Knowsley retain or gain us more fans/customers than being based in our home town? Very unlikely so don?t do it.

We have been through long periods when the city has been in decline and an economic basket case but the fans/customers stayed loyal so when the city is booming and construction is taking place everywhere you look we are planning to move out? What sort of business would do that?

Firstly, excellent article!

I agree with everything that you?ve said and will now add two further points, one is for clubs next generation and one for selfish reasons.

I?m now nearly forty and first started watching the blues (at Goodison) when I was thirteen, I tried desperately to get there at an earlier age, but couldn?t because of the hooligan problems of the 70?s and early 80?s, my mother just plain forbid going to matches all together (my father was red (so definitely no go there!)). At thirteen she relented and I started going with my blue mates.

My point is this; my mother was from the blue half of my family and why I support the blues, but I can promise you one thing, if we had been playing in Knowsley back then she would have said to my dad ?Turn him into a red!?. It?s not because she has anything against Knowsley (my dad was Kirby lad), the reason is a basic one: mothers worry, both my parents wanted to know how I would get to the ground and who with, etc. Today as back then I live in Wavertree and would have to get 2, 3 or maybe 4 buses to there, I believe most mothers are similar to mine and wouldn?t want their children making a journey like that unescorted, and there?s this really big club with a massive stadium winning champions leagues, premierships etc, just down the road ?why can?t he support them??

We?re in danger of losing a lot of our younger generation (most parents will choose safety first).

I read a simple message from this move to Knowsley: ?IF YOU HAVEN?T GOT A CAR SOD YOU!?. I do own a car but like a pint before and after, so what do myself and my mates do out there in the middle of very little, nip into Tesco, buy a few cans and then drink them in the car park? The only winners here are Tesco with thousands of cars in their car park and each car represents a nice middle class fan with a shopping list. This must also warm the hearts of any taxi drivers, the thought of their meters ticking over.

I?ve noticed in recent years a quieting of the crowd at Goodison, I think this could become worse as some of the more let?s say working class fans stop going, the one?s who like a pint and do the singing? We could end up like Middlesbrough out in the middle of nowhere with a half full and dull stadium.

You?re playing with fire Mr Kenwright!

Great article Pete, i was brought up in Walton(helena st)now living in Southport, first game at goodison 1967 and firmly believe that after the initial spin about an'only option' move to Kirkby this will be the death knell of OUR great club.Kenwright is always saying he is only a custodian of EFC,fuckin right he is, now lets show him the true feelings of GENUINE Everton supporters and show the passion which we all have for OUR club and say the BEST possible CITY location or stay at goodison.End of.

What percentage of Everton fans are actually from Liverpool? What percentage are based there? Does anyone know?

I’m from NI and have supported Everton since I was 5. Note that most people from NI will either support Man U or the RS but you will find Everton fans in easy reach. I’ve only been to Goodison once (I am a poor student in Geordieland!) and to be blunt my home town team (Ballymena United) play in a more modern stadium, albeit one a 10th of the size. If I was a billionaire I’d buy a new stadium for Everton (in Liverpool) tomorrow.

But football isn’t a sport anymore, no matter how much you wish it was, it is a business. If moving a few miles to Kirkby benefits Everton then fuck what Liverpool are doing. Gillet will drop them like a stone if profits dip. "Surrendering the city to Liverpool"? since the vast majority of their fans don’t even live there I’m not sure what you are really worried about. But maybe I’m just another "outsider" fan that Everton don’t want ot need...

I’m sorry to say but that is the biggest load of drivel I have read in a long time. The theories, views and suggestions are put forward as facts, the saddest aspect of it all is this theory, put forward as a truth that because we move 4 miles thousands upon thousands of Evertonians will become lapse bluenoses and then closet reds followed by fully paid up members of the red shite. All because we stop becoming the poor relations across Stanley Park - which we will continue to be no matter what they try and do to GP. If this happens how blue are they?

Could a move not actually increase our fan base by attracting new fans? Could a new state of the art ground not increase our fan base? Could the fact that you can buy extra tickets for your own children without sitting in cramped shitty seats with a pillar not increase their commitment? Could the fact that you can probably park within a mile safely not lead to an increase in out of town blues? (or do they not count?) Could the fact that the stadium, wherever it is built, will increase our revenue (if the team performs). Clearly none of these are ever likely to happen and the only future for Everton, according to Peter is a slow and painful death. Well I’m sorry to say I don’t subscribe to that future, I actually think that staying will be a slow and painful death.

Not going to go on, but I think that Evertonians have one thing they agree on in all this:
We need to build a new stadium and we shoulddo it in North Liverpool close to our current home.

Kirkby nearly fits, but it’s too far away and the erosion of our working class, local fan base will happen. It might get replaced by out of towners like me in cars, but even that’s missing the point - as a non Scouser Evertonian, one of the things that fascinated me most as a kid when I first came to Goodison was Liverpool the city. The whole day out was a total buzz and I can’t see that happening in the future in Kirkby ( with all due respect to Kirkby )

Somehow, we have to find some land in Liverpool itself with a commercial partner( Central Docks and Peel Holdings project a suggestion ) and keep the Liverpool element in our Club. I also believe the often intimidating appearance of inner Liverpool leading up to Goodison from the city centre put the wind up a good few away teams and fans over the years and probably gained us points that actually kept us in the Premier League!

As one of the world’s great cultural cities is finally enjoying an economic recovery to leave now is near madness! I’ve supported BK pretty much on everything, but after a lot of consideration I am not coming out in his favour on this one. He’s wrong, I fear and I am also suspicious at the toatl lack of info on possible alternatives. Unless something changes I reckon I will be voting NO.

Where is Kirkby? And how far is it from Goodison Park? Sitting here in Fallowfield I wondered if I could sort this out for myself. So I took my trusty AA Road Atlas off the shelf. I couldn?t find Kikby at first, that?s because I was looking at the wrong page, the one with Warrinton on it. Then I found Skelmersdale, which anyone who has never lived in Liverpool, like most of us, might think was populated with scousers. My grandad, a Birkenhead docker used to refer to himself as a scouser - those across the river were donkey wackers.

But no - Kirkby, it turns out, is considerably closer than that. Do we really have to count centimeters? But then again, my map doesn?t tell me which pubs you have to call in to get there.

Now I usually reckon Fallowfield (I don?t use the M word if I don?t have to) to the Tate Liverpool, depending on the traffic, is about 40 minutes. Or I could take public transport and a couple of days. I?ve never been to Goodison on public transport either, from here or from Ellesmere Port where I grew up. In fact, a cosiderable part of the journey has always been the walk from where you managed to park to get to the ground itself. "Look after your car mister" was one of the first ?scouse? phrases we out-of-towners picked up.

Of course, in those days, Everton was the out-of-towners team, a team for the North West, for North Wales, for everybody wherever who enjoyed good, great, football. The little people across the park were the team for those who would probably kick your door down to get what they wanted - how times change, eh?

There are many and very big forces - mainly economic, or more accurately financial - at work in all of this, and I would trust the suits as far as I can throw them, and there are some very heavy people involved, no matter what claims they might make for the blueness of their veins. But if the future of this wonderful club of ours relies upon the ability of someone to be able to walk to its home games from his comfy domesticity, via his local (which is now ownned by which branch of Tesco?)God help it.

Last one - can you please put me in touch personally with these people who can predict the future. Brian Clough, God rest his scoring boots, said that the only expert in football was the one who could predict next week eight scoring draws. If anyone can see that far ahead, let alone thirty years down the line, I would be very grateful for your advice.

Oh sorry, I?ve just realised why I went to the Warrington page. That?s where Liverpool Airport is, isn?t it? "Only Sky Above Us". Good motto for the BBC that one.

Great article and even greater comment by ’taxi club blue’.
It’s exactly right, there are only two types of people; ’Those you don’t have to tell and those you can’t tell’...for what ever it is, right down to saying please and thank you and right up to ’ Thou shalt not kill’.
This situation is the exact reverse of ’one step for a man and one giant leap for mankind’.
But it’s only 3.5 miles or what ever, they spout. The naysayers are missing the point, they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Not many people (2 to my knowledge, Faust and Marge Simpson) have ever got back their Soul once sold, be it however Royal Blue or not.
ONE SMALL STEP, but a GIANT LEAP.... Yeah! but in which direction???.
To quote a certain J.lENNON...’ Last night the wife said, Oh boy whren you’re dead, you won’t take nothing with you but your soul!...
THINK!!

I have’nt lived in Liverpool for some 30 years so I have been a little bit reluctant to get into this debate.
I thought that this was a great article and it has more or less convinced me that moving to Kirby is not a solution

My gut feeling is that we really should be looking for a site in South Liverpool.

for the life of me I cannot understand how the RS get a site on a park , why it would be utterly utterly impossible for us to get a slice of say Sefton Park .

When I was a kid it was always a hassle to get to Goodison from Childwall and Woolton . just imagine young kids trying to get from there to Kirby ! Unless you have a superb public transport infrastructure it just is’nt going to happen

I tend to agree with Jim Hourigan comments. As someone from Kirkby, I don?t want the ground here not only is that section of land used for a local community college but it is also quite a pleasant area of greenery (yes we do have pleasant areas in Kirkby too). I also don?t want thousands of football supporters littering the place up with their ?cans they have bought from the tesco supermarket?.
As for the argument that the erosion of the fan base will happen if we move to Kirkby staying where we are next to the shiny new Anfield will certainly erode the fanbase, will not the child be drawn to the big stadium in the park rather than the clapped out GP. So based on the argument that the Kirkby move will erode the fanbase, I should be certainly due a lifetime season ticket award for making the reverse journey for the last 30years?.but that doesn?t matter because I am going to watch Everton?...Get IT!!

We are going to lose fans if we dont move becuase people will see that Liverpool are the team that has progressed and no-one will care for us because we are still in the 20th century. If we move dont you think we will get fans from places like Kirkby

We’ll lose a few if we go to Kirby. But we’ll also gain a few in doing so from the Kirby area. Anyway, real Everton fans don’t mind going a little extra miles to watch the team. I think this has more to do with not wanting to lose out to Liverpool FC than with moving out of L4.

Absolute rubbish
The only reason our fanbase will erode is if we continue to win nothing.
While the RS go to a major final almost every year we are happy to finish in the top ten

Some good points but I;m not sure I entirely agree.

I grew up in L4 myself opposite Stanley Park and have been going to Goodison for over 20 years. I have sinced moved to Fazakerley and now I actually live in Kirkby. Maybe its just because I live there but I still see myself as a scouser and I know people who live there do also. I am also about to become a father within a matter of days and there is no-way on gods earth that my child will become a gobshite, no-matter where we live - that is my duty as a father! I would argue that if a person moves away from the region and does not continue to go the match that they are not overly concerned with getting to the game. You could not just expect your child to be an evertonian nowadays if they?ve never even been to Liverpool. And don?t worry about a potential 15?000 more armchairs who only watch the match on sky in the Arkles! I don?t actually know any Liverpool fans from Liverpool who go to the game, but admittedly I tend not to socialise with gobshites as they talk so much bollocks its unbelievable.

I do not want to refer to the poolies too much, but their captain marvel is also from knowsley - Huyton and carragher is from Bootle - Sefton, but they?re the biggest scousers in the world apparantley. Joey Barton is another also from knowsley. Anyway, that?s only a quick thought about getting carried away with what is and what isn?t Liverpool, for me that is not the most important issue.

Can I also say that geography and the location of a football club has got fuck all to do with fanbase. Look no further than Man Utd! Hundreds of thousand of fans, mainly children up and down the country who have no idea were Manchester is. They have there fans through constant success and playing good football, not because the ground is five minutes away. It is a very pessimistic view to assume that any ground move would automatically mean thousands of lost future fans! Why? Are you all assuming were are never going to have anything to cheer about ever again? Now even though the new stadium would be on my doorstep I do not want the move because I believe we should spend all the available funds we have on developing the thread bear squad. I would rather have Goodison packed to the rusty old rafters every other week watching quality football by quality players - not sat watching mediocre football with 20’000 empty seats (our average attendance for last season was 35,476). At the moment I wouldn?t even want a 55’000 seater stadium inside the city boundaries, not until our average attendance is 40’000 with thousands waiting in the wings.

As always it seems the club I love are about to get it horribly wrong and instead of kicking on we may remain static for a while. Our board need to realise the best way to make money in football is to be successful on the pitch, getting more money from TV by finishing higher in the prem, staying in every cup competition as long as possible (or maybe actually winning one), playing attractive football and gathering those fans with no obvious club etc. Not by selling our best players like some used car salesman or wrongly assuming 55?000 seats will automatically be filled. Considering that it was Wyness who released the statement about our average attendance, he must know that we are currently not filling Goodison week in week out. We get away with it inside Goodison when the likes of Fulham come to town, its easy to hide 2000 empty seats inside our ground with our atmosphere, its not so easy to hide 20?000 in a new open stadium that we?re all strangers to ourselves.

But no matter what happens Everton will always be in my blood and no matter where we play or what division we are in I will still be there every game cheering them on! And soon I will have one of the next generation of Evertonians sat along side me.

EVERTONIANS ARE BORN, NOT MANUFACTURED!!!

PS i dont remember having to go through a tunnel to get home from my mums? Maybe thats why the last guys driving a cab?

how exactly would we be leaving our merseyside glory behind?
knowsley is still in merseyside.

also we run out to the sound of zcars filmed in kirkby,maybe we should change this to a cast song or something, afterall they are from the city,maybe this would win us a few more fans!!

evertonians are born not made,so if people stop going then they weren’t true fans anyway. but if you can make fans, surely the way to do that is by being successful?

by staying at goodison fickle fans would still choose liverpool anyway according to your logic,as their ground would be bigger and newer etc. so whilst doing your study maybe we should do one about how many fans we’d lose by staying, my guess is they’d be about the same, probably low, and mostly arm chair supports who never go, so no loss their.

in 20years time the boundaries will have been re-drawn so knowsley will be in liverpool. just to clarify for some posters, kirkby is 4 miles from goodison but only the width of the motorway outside of liverpool.

Vexingly the well researched and lengthy response I put yesterday to this opinionated, emotive and inaccurate article kept getting bounced yesterday so I’ll settle for one quick point.

That being that I believe the Woolwich Arsenal have been moderately successful since moving 12 miles from Kent to North London.

The assertion that Everton moving to Kirkby has any bearing on Liverpool’s decision to add stadium capacity is ridiculous. LFC draw there support from all across the country and as far a field as Scandinavia. The population of their hometown is becoming increasingly irrelevant. They’re building a bigger stadium as they can fill it with existing fans, and they have the waiting lists to prove it.

Secondly, Manchester United’s move to Old Trafford took them out of the (then) boundaries of the City of Manchester and it didn’t do them any harm. They needed a bigger stadium to keep up with the (then) more progressive clubs like Everton and Arsenal. The fact that Old Trafford is now firmly within the borders of Manchester makes the idea behind the KEIOC movement look even more vacuous. Please don?t drag our team back into the dark ages with your quaint ideas of civic allegiance.

Everton are a North Liverpool club and if they are to stay inside the political boundary then they should stay in the North of liverpool. The move to Kirkby has it’s pro’s and con’s as would a move to anywhere on Merseyside! personally I would have loved to re-develop Goodison but we know that isn’t going to happen..surely there is a bit of green somewhere in the North end? There is a plot of land next to the M57 on the Fazakerley side which I have always thought would be ideal..ok it’s still Kirkby (the boundary starts on Longmoor Lane which will suprise a few I think)but it has everything we need..those worried about having a pint don’t worry there’s loads of boozers within a couple of miles. Fans coming from Woolton, Speke etc..if not by car then coaches and busus would be laid on to come up the Knowsley expressway then M57..be there within 20 mins! There is also the chance of giving our club a train station named after us on the Central-Kirbky line..one thing is for sure..this is the biggest decision EFC are likely to ever make..so think hard and listen to all the fans Ken

Great article, Pete. You have really said what I have been thinking. I am a lifelong third-generation Evertonian, however, I now live in New Zealand
I was at my 14-year-old son's football game yesterday (please read this with a Kiwi accent): His teammate asked, "What team do you support?" He replied "Everton," his mate said "Where are they from?" My son replied, "They are from Liverpool," His freind said "No they are not, they are near Liverpool." They then consulted their coach who replied firmly "Everton are not near Liverpool they are in Liverpool."
enough said.

One of the worst articles I?ve seen on here. So self-indulgent it?s quite frightening.

Let?s just point out one thing: the VAST MAJORITY of Evertonians do not come from/live in the ?city of Liverpool?. That is beyond question. To dismiss areas such as Kirkby, Maghull, Bootle, Huyton, etc as not part of Liverpool is just plain wrong. The political boundaries have changed before and will do again.

Moving a mile outside the ?city of Liverpool? boundary will have no effect on the Club. Success and quality of football are the only things that will affect attendances and fanbase significantly, though better facilities may also help and that is why a move is so important.

Dross such as this should come with a warning and is based purely on speculation.

Point two now I?ve a bit of time.

If instead of relying on anecdotal about a mate of his whose son supports Newcastle* he had bothered to do any actual research he would have the discovered the Why Support Football survey conducted by When Saturday Comes and the Norman Chester Federation.

In it, Everton are top of the league (I know it?s hard to swallow for some misery guts eh? Everton top..) of a question asks about family alliances and what team you support proving its blood not mud that has a bearing.

* My own experience growing up after moving from Liverpool to North Wales as a child and those of my friends now in London with young children runs counter to this btw. They and I and my siblings all grew up/are growing up blue (EFC not CFC)

Once again, another Peter Fearon article based entirely on assumption, with no factual information to support his conspiracy theory. Peter, do you lie in bed at night with a pad next to your bed just in case you wake up in a cold sweat after another Everton nightmare? This is really lazy journalism based entirely on your own model of the world and at the very least scaremongering. Try producing some facts into your next article and then, just maybe, I could have some respect for your opinions.

Im all for moving out of Liverpool, we need to progress as a club and simply cannot do so at Goodison, we have to leave and Kirkby is the best possible alternative.

We are Born not Manufactured.. Doesn’t matter if Everton Played on Mars, Evertonians will be Evertonians, I was born to a Red house, with a father and mother determined to make sure I was one too but No! It was Everton that excited me, It was Everton I wanted to watch play, wanted to listen too, and it wasn’t a purely rebellion thing either, it was a heart and soul thing, from the first time I saw a Blues player kick a ball I got a thrill, and that first goal, it was electric, and I’d watched a hundred Redshite goals before that and felt nothing..

So Evertonians will feel the call and will go the extra distance because that’s what we do.. that’s who we are.. I bet every single one of us has had to stand up and defend our team in the eyes of others and we’ve done it without question because Everton is in our Blood and Always will be..

I think we would all agree as a team we are moving forward, no longer first in the hat when the pundits are picking the relegation favourites, more likely to be considered a team capable of a top six finish, and with a little luck a top four, that’s who we are now, but it cannot stop here we need to keep progressing, we need a ground suitable for the next generation of Memorable European Nights..

Some good points there Peter but I think that the erosion of our fanbase can be halted by winning trophies, and the Dark Side being less successful.

If we can put together a consistently successful side in the way that THEY have then we will attract as many fans from all around the country and farther afield in the way that ManUre and the RS have, and also the majority from the City of Liverpool that want to support the best team in the Premiership.

Reference the comment about not filling GP at the moment. That?s partly becuase, in my own experience, it?s impossible to get a decent seat with a decent view unless you?re a season ticket holder. A beter stadium, with better facilities, would help solve that problem right away, and I am sure there are many more like me. As far as location is concerned, so long as the public transport is OK, it doesn?t really matter what the postcode is. And for the KEIOC people - where exactly is it that is so sure fire available, at the right price, etc?

While I can see the side to both arguments should we stay or should we go? The question on my mind is not one of location, but of price! What price to watch football at a new stadium when to be honest, the price today is just about reasonable. I know we are one of the cheapest in the Premiership but in my family there are 5 season ticket holders, myself, wife & 3 daughters which costs in total £2,028. The point I am trying to make is that it is not one of loyalty or location that will decide whether we lose support, but rather the cost of watching our beloved blues in a new stadium! Every game home or away can be watched in my local on the Arab satellite channel for the price of a few pints, so when the ground move comes the question I ask is.... "At what price?"

I cannot see a move to Kirby being an issue in eroding our fanbase. If the new stadium is built on the suggested land then it will only be 4 miles away from our current home. EFC are still a big club with a big history and will always have a great following no matter where we play.

Are the KEIOC people and fans against the move suggesting they will not follow EFC if we move home? Whatever happened to once an Evertonian always an Evertonian.

Some notes from the other end of the East Lancs. Old Trafford has never been in the City of Manchester. It is in somewhere which used to be called Stretford, town hall and all. Postal district M16 is mainly in the Borough of Trafford, which used to be part of something called Greater Manchester, which no longer exists. When they couldn?t get into the Inter Cities Fairs Cup because of MCFC, MUFC objected on the basis that they had nothing to do with Manchester. I think ?well change your name to Stretford then? was the response from Berne or wherever. In fact, they are much closer to being in the City of Salford.

MCFC moved from their traditional base to the stadium built for the Commonwealth Games. A fine structure but not a football ground. Please God, anyone considering a brand new-built stadium would do their best to create a cauldron where the fans could get behind their team - and go for a pee in civilised surroundings should they need to.

When the founding fathers called this great club Everton FC, the die was cast, never to change. A few Premierships and European campaigns from now and you will have to fight your way into the New Goodison, wherever it is.

I don?t want to leave Goodison. My first match was 1970 when we beat WBA to win the league. I could not see the game because it was standing and I am not the tallest. Living in the past is all well and good but when LFC gets 75,000 seats to fill in an inner city location the traffic congestion will be hell on earth. A lot of fans may think "W0y is this ground not next to a motorway in an out-of-centre site?

There are also lots of people who live on the outskirts of Liverpool and they will find it easier to get to Kirby than sit in the traffic jam to Stanley park. I have sat on Walton Lane for long enough as it is. One set of roadworks and you're knackered. I think Gillette is not as clever as you think.

I agree totally with you Keiron, the other crowd will have major problems in the years to come by building on Stanley Park... some fans will think twice about driving into town to sit in congestion... No doubts like that when the access is quick and simple with no driving around looking for a parking speck for half an hour... they will be lucky to fill a 75,000 seater! Don?t mean to harp on about them but just making a point.

That was absolute garbage. I have seen a lot of baseless conjecture with absolutely no facts to back it up, but that was possibly the worst. So would staying in an old Goodison Park, as much as I love her, with only 40,000 seats and obstructed views and in the shadow of a brand new Liverpool Stadium with 70,000 seats as you’ve said attract the children 30 years from now to choose Everton over Liverpool. And don’t say build somewhere else in the city boundaries because the Liverpool Council has failed Everton in delivering this.

We cannot just sit around forever and hope they eventually grant us a site. Kirkby have agreed to give us a place for a stadium and now the club is analyzing whether or not this is the best option. The proposed Kirkby site is something like 4 miles from Goodison, that’s nothing. It is a short walk after a couple of pints. We would still be a Merseyside team, that would not change.

My Grandfather lived in Kirkby and would walk with my Uncles, when they were kids, to Goodison to watch his Blues. He moved to the States, then moved back to Merseyside and now lives in Wirral, and was a season ticket holder until this season. My Uncle lives in the States but would fly back to see games, only has room in his heart for Everton, and owns a share in the club. I was born in the States and have only ever supported Everton.
These distances that you all complain about are just absurd. America is enormous in size, and the sports teams draw fans from a hundred miles away as the home supporters along with the fans who live around the stadium. I wish I only had to go 10 to 40 minutes, whatever your case may be, to see Everton every weekend. So stop you bitching and claiming that the future kids will not love Everton. Wear your jersey with pride and tell every child who Merseysides true team is, owned by an Evertonian and not some American businessman. Everton is The Peoples Club, but that does not only count for the people inside the mapped line of the city of Liverpool. That includes all the surrounding areas, including Kirkby.

David Barks - I think you owe Peter Fearon an apology (and no, he’s not a mate of mine, I have no idea who he is). For his piece was not "abolsute garbage" nor was it founded upon "baseless conjecture" (and as for providing "facts" to support his argument, well until someone invents a machine whereby we can reach into the future and retrieve facts then we’re a bit stuck on that score). By all means have your own opinions - and indeed in 10 years time you might be proven to be right. But do you not think it prudent, just for a moment, to tone down your retorts and, instead of dismissing as "garbage" (prove it, David) what I believe was a well thought out viewpoint, just maybe consider that his bleak outlook might have some grounding? By your own admission you were born in the States (and it’s great to know Blues are all over the world); and without wishing to score points, genuinely, do you not think that a bloke who hails from L4 might actually have a better honed sense of how things will play out on the ground, within this utterly peculiar city, once Liverpool are left as the only club within its boundaries? Not for nothing have LFC fans already paraded a "One City, One Club, One Name - Liverpool" banner across the kop at the Derby last March (you knew this, yeah?) as the first shots in their "f-off to Kirkby" rapid-invective that is fast becoming the default retort of every kopite from 8-80. LFC, as a collective, are already in overdrive preparing for Everton’s departure and I, for one, believe you can measure how misjudged our little trip will be by how gleeful they are, to a man, woman, boy, CEO and American Co-Owner. But hey, what’s a banner. Stciks and stones and all that. Whilst everything you say about distances is true on paper, on maps, on Google Earth, the actuality on the ground is rather different, believe me. Yes, of course fans will "travel" the extra few miles to Kirkby. That, largely, is not the point. And it wasn’t the point Peter Fearon was making. There are two viewpoints on this whole debate. You’re obviously in one camp. Peter’s in the other. And maybe you’ll be vindicated one day and Kirkby-fearing Blues like Peter and me will humbly shake you by the hand for your foresight, courage and ambition. The sting-in-the-tail for the likes of Peter and me, though, is that one day it might be us and thousands of others (I reckon about 15,000 naysayers v 20,000 pro-Kirkbyites, and the rest are unsure, if my radar is anything to go by) who are vindicated. But, of course, by then it will be too late. And where might the people who dismissed our warnings as "garbage" be, then? Wise up David. Around 15,000 Blues aren’t just sounding the warning bells about Kirkby for a laugh you know? We’re not just flying in the face of what, on the face of it admittedly, looks a great win-win deal (i.e. a mostly paid-for bigger, newer stadium, just down the road, yeah over the boundary but so what) because we fancy a moan. We do know how to read maps and we do know that in the normal course of events four miles really should be neither here not there, especailly when viewed through the lens of a Blue travelling to a home game from the States. The problem in Liverpool is that this is not a normal situation. It’s not a normal city. Just isn’t. Everton going to Kirkby is a massive gamble. It might pay off. It may not. Glad for you Blue that you’ve got so much conviction that it will. Because, yeah, it follows doesn’t it? Everton’s profile, from within the heart of the city of Liverpool right now, is already so huge, isn’t it, that it can and will only get bigger when we move out of said city to its outskirts and set up camp in a small town the name of which is known right around the globe? It’s a marketeer’s dream. Duh, stupid me for missing that. So why didn’t Liverpool (in a more landlocked stadium than Everton: fact, provable) decide to do that, rather than endure all the hassle they’ve had to go through (despite the helping hands from the council) for the last seven years? They (with their fans drawn from all over the globe lets not forget) could have kicked-off in Kirkby, or elsewhere in Knowsley, Sefton, even into West Lancs or Cheshire, any time they wanted from about 2003 onwards given the amount of green space available and the surely politcally welcoming arms they’d have received from the various councils. They could have been playing in a 70,000 capacity for at least three seasons now and enjoying all the draw-downs instead of having to wait another two seasons, at least, before the new "Soccer Reds" franchise-paradise stadium opens up. Odd, that. Ain’t it? Or have Everton scored a massive hit over Liverpool and the stupid red whoppers just haven’t noticed how shrewd we’re being? Better keep schtum, then, lest they find out and ruin our Blue party. Again.

TCB..good points you make there..just curious to know..if KMBC and LCC agreed to re-admit Kirkby (yes it was once inside the Liverpool boundary) back into the political boundary do you think that would be a solution? I know it sounds simple and far fetched but you never know!

Blueamsterdam, maybe you’ve got a finger on the same political pulse as me and you’ve heard that it isn’t beyond the bounds of possibility that there could be yet another shift in Liverpool’s boundary sometime in the next 10 years? Whilst that may be the case (and it would be a matter for the Boundary Commission to decide, no-one else) I’m reliably informed that a sizeable part of Knowsley’s (let’s face it, entirely understandable) desire to have EFC within its bounds is to force a firm flagpole into the ground well ahead of such a move, if indeed it ever came. Let’s just imagine that the Liverpool line is stretched again sometime in the next decade, I think you can bet your life that KMBC will say "fine you have the bit that lies beyond the boundary sign" (just before the Copplehouse) and indeed "all the way as far as the M57 bridge-roundabout, but beyond that is where Kirkby starts." And that would mean that EFC would be one inch within the KMBC boundary. I don’t think there would a chance in hell that KMBC, if having fought and ultimately won EFC, would give it up without a fight. In any case, I don’t think it’s relevant (IMHO) anyway. For as I said, my concern is more about visibility / connectivity, which is why I said it actually woudn’t bother me if EFC set-up a new ground around the Mons area of Bootle, for example, even though that would be beyond the boundary of the city. For such a site would be visibly connected to the everyday business of what most of us consider to be inner-Liverpool, even though, technically, by walking over the Queens Drive junction at the Mons you’ve actually crossed the city line. But it’s certainly one to watch Blue. Regards TCB.