Moyes, myth or master?

A plea before you all get started: try to treat this as a discussion article and address the issues raised. For some of us, it is a reaosnable question, whilst for th eMoyes lovers out there who live by fith alone, it is obviously a no-brainer. Tell us why, but please god not with the ususal litany of past "achievements" that amount to at best an average improvement from regular relegation candidates to mid-table battlers (look at the average posistion over the last five season: 9th). Tell us something we don’t already know.

Then there’s no more to be said. Luq doesn’t make any new points.

Same old same old. I don’t mind Luq getting front page attention, but it would be nice if you actually told something new. No pun intended!

I agree with you that I sometimes get irritated when people call Smith the worst manager ever, I still remember us being in 5th place or whatever in 1999 or 2000 or so. We looked to be at the way back at that time. If Campbell and Jeffers wouldn’t have suffered injuries... But after that, the team fell down the ranks quickly and Smith got sacked. That’s football.

And Michael, I think it’s unfair that Luq can point to things in the past, but that the Moyes-lovers cannot comment "with the ususal litany of past "achievements"". Luq is doing nothing else than giving his usual litany, be it without the comment on the lack of transfer activity.

And the saying goes about bitter blues. I wonder where it comes from.
Its funny how across the country people can see moyes is a good manager and has done a good job. Id rather be in 5-10th posistion than floating around the bottom fighting for are lives. Every manager has bad buys, id blame the players more for not adapting than the manager.

But i suppose in the end whats the point in backing your team and been behind them 100% when you can be a whiney bitch and pick on every little thing

I have to agree with Joe that this is a tired hackneyed subject. But in the spirit of debate we’ll rehearse the arguments one more time.

Luq, you point to Moyes record, personality, club stability, transfers and achievements as generally failures. I could simply turn all of those comments round and use them to praise Moyes and be equally right. Hence why it’s a pointless debate.

The pointlessness is that it’s so bloody Manichean. Either Moyes is a God or, as you would have it, he should be sacked. WHY?!?!?! Can we not have a more nuanced analysis that runs something like, ok Moyes has been a bit boom and bust and at times lacks assertiveness but in general the club is moving in the right direction. It’s him that’s driving it that way so he deserves the chance to show how far he can take us. He hasn’t stalled yet so let’s just keep assessing and see how things go. We’re not missing out on anything by his presence. Please, please, please though can we drop this myth or master, messiah or muppet discourse. Anyone who seriously believes in either position is well wide of the mark and equally worthy of contempt as their polar opposite.

Do you seriously believe Luq that Moyes has been so bad he merits the sack? Do you really think it would be a sensible move to throw out the man who brought all our best players to the club on the offchance, and it is an offchance, that someone else who no one seems to be able to name, might do better? You make valid criticisms in places but completely fail to balance them with his achievements when you reach your conclusions. It sounds like I’m marking an essays... maybe that’s because like when marking undergraduate essays I’ve read these discussions a million times before without ever getting any closer to an original answer.

Maybe its all about perception.
David Moyes has passion and makes us believe we can win the league (which is unlikely in the near future), as compared with Walter Smith who appeared in interviews not to care if we won, lost, got relegated or finished towards the top.

I think that emotion has gotten the better of Luq’s logic here. We all want to see Everton winning everything every season, as our motto suggests. Unfortunately this is not feasible in todays football world. We do not have the resources to compete with the Big 4. I think that Moyes has done reasonably well with the resources he has had at his disposal. He is not perfect by any means but appears to be improving steadily every season. Yes 4th, 6th, and 7th has seen us not winning anything but surely it is better than 15th, 16th, and 17th and not winning anything. I feel we are moving in the right direction. Maybe not fast enough for any of our liking butmoving in the right direction nonetheless. The main reason for this I believe is that we have been stable for a number of seasons. We have had the same manager for the last 5 years or so and hence he has been able to mould the side into what he wants, surround himself with the people he needs, build stability in the team. Chopping and changing managers season in and out usually leads to failure and instability. Please note the several football sides who have done so and failed. The difference between South African and Australian rugby over the last 10 years or so is another example of 2 very different approaches to management with very different results. In summary, if there is definitely a better manager out there, then let’s get him but we must ensure he stays with us for at least the next 5 years. If nosuch manager exists then we must stick with Moyes and back him as he will gradually improve us. Will he ever get us to where we were? I don’t know but no-one else is going to with the current resources at our disposal.

Moyes is king because he is our most successful manager in the Prem-and for many years before that!Relegation worries have been made a thing of the past and his ten year plan to gratness is well on track.

It’s easy to criticise and throw stats around, however apart from 1 blip we have finished reasonably placed each season under moyes so far, and he has done a good job reducing the average age of the squad and clearing out most of the crap, that unfortunaely is not an instant process.

I think given the squad we now have, and given a few decent signings in the summer we should now realistically be looking at later stages of Europe and maintaining our top 6 league position. I reckon we give moyes 2 seasons to prove what he can do now the squad is of good quality and then if he has still won nothing it’s time for him to go.

I’m neither a hater or lover of Moyes, but I would much prefer him as our manager to Walter Smith any day of the week, although sounds like you have a little soft spot (or maybe not so soft) for Walter eh Luq??

Terrible article, same old rubbish spouted by a ’real fan’ who has no good ideas.

It is far too easy to say that any manager who does not win anything with Everton is not being successful.

Who would do better and be willing to manage Everton?

What would you have done differently, to guarantee success over the past 5 years? And do you really think that retrospectively ’fixing’ Moyes errors means that a different manager would not have made equal or worse errors?

We are all desperate for trophies, but the goalposts have been moved yet again. Now, not only do you have United and Arsenal to worry about, but there’s the small matter of Chelsea and their billions.

We are the only team since Moyes took over to break the top 4. I don’t subscribe to the opinion that the top 4 have a divine right to be there. We proved that the monopoly can be broken. If Moyes had turned a few of our draws into wins and a few losses into draws this season, we’d have been up there.

There are no absolutes in football. The closest thing to an absolute in Moyes’ history was the horrendous European foray 2 years ago. That was a dismal failure. Cups have been a real disappointment under Moyes as well. But our league performance have been much improved under Moyes, FACT. And at the end of the day, league form is the start of success.

This season will be a real test of Moyes and the board. In my humble opinion a good run in the UEFA and re-qualification for Europe would be good progress. Maybe not the success that we crave but enough movement in the right direction to suggest that Moyes can still offer more.

Same old anti-Moyes rhetoric, but hardly a shocker from this guy! Apart from a brief mention of statistics, the rest of it is mere opinion and hypothesis (how did we manage to score a goal in the second half against Man Utd if "we didn’t come out of our own half"?).

So, in the absence of any real facts to back up his argument, here are some of my own.

Since around the beginning of the last century, when the league went to 20 teams, Everton’s average position is 11th. Moyes’ average is 9th, which strikes me as considerably better than "incredibly average".

Yes, we have won nothing in the past 5 seasons, but do you know how many trophies we have won in almost 110 seasons? 9 League Championships, 5 FA Cups and 1 European trophy, which works out at more than 7 seasons for each trophy. Give it another 2 seasons before you can say he’s below average in this respect.

So finishing 4th, 6th and 7th means nothing to you? We have finished 7th or higher 35 times in the 91 seasons I mentioned above, Moyes has done it 3 out of 5, again decidedly above average.

"The season after he fails miserably"? So a fall from 4th to 11th ie 7 places, is failing miserably? Even in the context of a single season that seems harsh (if you’re going to ignore the fact that the 4th position itself was a huge overachievement, particularly considering the previous season’s 17th position, fine, but an increase of 6 places over 2 seasons is progress, surely??), but if that is your definition of failing miserably, then you would have been miserable quite often over the last 91 seasons, 20 times in fact. Presumably it is better to decline slowly as we had been over the previous 15 seasons??

How can Moyes be "an inferior clone" of Walter Smith? Have you forgetten the turgid dross we were served up under Smith? Or his average position, 15th (rounded)? Surely there is more to managing the football club than "money and background stability"? Isn’t that what we have a Chief Executive for? By your definition, Moyes could flog AJ, Arteta, Lescott, and Cahill for £30-40m, comfortably, replace them with mediocre Championship players for £10-£12m, and presumably have you deem him a "success" - incredible!

So Moyes "sounds as dull as his tactics" and doesn’t inspire his players? So you know him personally, do you? You know what he says to his players before a game, during a game, after a game, and all throughout the week in training, do you? How do you tally your claim with the fact that Moyes’ record is above the average over the past 91 seasons? How does it tally with the commonly held view that Everton’s team spirit is second to none? Did all that just happen by accident??

I think you really are blinded by hate, as your post has no real evidence to back up your claims. You mention 4 criteria on which you are judging him, namely playing record, leadership qualities, financial stability and the players he has bought, and you purport to rule each out, on behalf of the entire Everton support, no less, and conclude that the whole "DM is great" thing is a myth, and base it on nothing more than your opinion. As a DM lover AND an Everton supporter (why do the two have to be mutually exclusive??), I believe in David Moyes and where he is taking us. And in my opinion, for what it is worth, you are talking rubbish (though I defend your right to talk rubbish!)

Why bother to even post this article.............wht not simply make your statement that Moyes is rubbish because it?s written to say just that...........you?re entitled to your opinion that?s all.

Forget the ?big club? sticker, we were, we are no longer, the only big club is a club with money, bug tradition maybe, big history certainly.

Moyes has done pretty good, better than any manager sice Howard Kendall, and I?ll bet you and your negative friends on this site were the ones shouting for Howards head in 1984.

This is the best team since the eighties, so I guess Moyes has been lucky as you clearly think he has no talent, and he?s accomplished this without the big bucks................so get real, if fourth, fifth, or sixth does nothing for you then best go watch the cricket, as Man Utd, Chelsea, Aresenal, Totenham and a few others all have vastly superior funds at their disposal.

Luq, I’m not sure whether you write some of your articles with a tongue in cheek stance. It does seem that many of your articles verge on laughable and this is no exception.You are very good at criticising the Moyes regime without EVER offering a sensible or viable alternative. You seem to think things are very ’black and white’, with "Moyes-lovers" against your "hate" of David Moyes.

This simply is not the case. Most Evertonians (the ones with brains) are able to accept the fact that Moyes is doing a reasonable job with Everton, as good as anybody REALISTICALLY could, given the current financial climate in the Premiership and the resources at Moyes disposal.

It is right that the club could probably do more to secure financial investment, I read this morning that Blackburn are next for investment. But is that David Moyes’ fault? I think not. Many a lesser manager would have walked away from the club if they had been given the relatively meagre funds from Kenwright and co. (hello Mr Benitez.)

The bottom line is that the club is upwardly mobile and is in a position to be the subject of the RIGHT KIND of investment. This last point, I think is particularly pertinent given Man City’s current predicament. The finacial side of Everton FC’s development is down to the board.

I think we should congratulate Mr Moyes for the job he has done SO FAR. A lot remains to be seen as to where we can get to but so far, he gets my vote.

I agree Ossy. I look at Moyes having taken two steps forward and one step back. Its quite obvious to every one with three quarters of a brain that you cant make a bottom 5 club into a top five club overnight. Even five years. If after 5 years your still a bottom 5 club, then bye bye. Thats the game. Its not just the side that walks onto the park, its the whole structure I am looking at. The first team has some grit and class now, and the youth team looks sharp. The tag of neveton has changed and were the ones the other clubs at our level want to be.

What other managers in the league would you seriously want as gaffer? Theres not many. Think about it.

Hey, I like my new name, thanks Luq.

I haven’t read, on purpose, more than a few pebbles of the avalance Luq started, so as to keep my mind on MY points.
Just cause his points are ’old hat’, timewise, doesnt make them any less or more valid, the are what they are either you agree or you don’t.
A lot of the apologistas DO say, ’look how better we are than under WS’. But he, WS, started 10 yrs ago and the whole ethos, the goal posts and the angle of the EPL playing field has changed since then. Not all of those changes have done us one iota of good, in fact things have got harder.
Lyndon hit it on the head, for me anyhow, talking about the Kirkby move, He said ’it just doesn’t feel right’.
Now for me, Walter just didn’t feel right, especially towards the end. Moyes does feel right, not OTT feel right but better, just, a bit, when he’s not doing the defensive dithering bit, but Moysiahish??? nah!

I sorry Luq but I dont actually see anyone who actually loves moves or thinks he is a great manager. Yes we feel he has done a decent job. He has his faults but so does every manager.

I to admire his passion and no-nonsence attitide but there are other aspects of his manager style you have to praise. He is a brilliant defensive minded manager. Whilst some people may hate this it got us out of the relegation battles. I completely agree he lack tacticle nous but a lot of managers do in the premiership.

I still dont understand why evertonians are not happy with where we are now. I have been watching everton since the sixties and I can accept that we are not the same team we where. What do you expect us to do win the league? Why because of our history. If that was the case then Man utd, Arsenal and Liverpool are ahead of us. The only thing keeping us down is Bill Kenwright’s refusal to sell us. Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs, Man utd, Portsmouth, West ham, Aston villa, Chelsea and even Wigan can outspend us. Football is all about money and we do not have it. As soon as we get investment the sooner we will get success.

I am neither a Moyes lover or hater. However, and i will try to address the points that Luq has raised.

Looking at his win-draw-lose ratio over the time he has been in charge is not a great way of assessing his abilities. He inherited an ageing, overpaid and de-motivated team. He has has had to clear the decks and the wage bill to a sensible level. I think it has take 3 years to do that and he has done that and is now able to move forward with his plans. I think it would be much fairer to judge his performance over the last 3 years where the team is much more of his making.

I agree his tactics have been uninspiring much of the time, but he is still a young manager and he is still building a team to play the way he wants. I think he understands the school of science legacy that he has inherited and I think he will mature his approach and his team and get us there. The signs were there at the end of this season where we played some great football at times.

I agree that he has done quite well in the transfer market. He has made some bad buys, but he has also made some very good buys. I am also keeping a close eye on the ’buys for the future’ he has made such as Spencer and Vidarsson. If they and the others plus the talent coming through the youth teams fulfil their potential we could be in a great place in 2-3 years. Another 2-3 years I hear you say, but we are a club in transformation and we have to be patient.

All in all, yes I would like to see our great club up there challenging with the best of them right now. We are not, but i di believe we are moving in the right direction and David Moyes is providing an important part of that progress.

When I was a kid Manure appointed a new manager called Ferguson. To start with he didn’t do anything great, just stabilized the team and started to develop some promsing young talent. Of course as Alan Hanson will tell you - "you can’t win anything with kids". Of course what Fergie did was turn Manure from a seriously underachieving club into what they are today. BUT IT TOOK TIME. Luq if you are the sort of person that needs instant success then go support Chelsea, we don’t have the money for that. If you are a true Evertonian stop thinking with your balls and use your head. Would you rather blow all of our money now in the hope of instant success and then watch as we are forced to sell Victor, Vaughny, Ruddy and all of the other incredibly talented youngsters we have got just to stay afloat. Or would you make sure that we are strong enough to keep the talent we have got and develop, maybe slowly, but develop into a team strong enough to challenge the top 4 properly. Maybe during that period we will get spotted and Bill Gates will buy the club and lavish us with billions. JUST DON’T COUNT ON IT.

We are a big club in terms of History, support and tradition - financially we are small.

I know I’ve wittered on basically give DM time, when he came he was the new Alex Ferguson, so let’s be patient and watch him develop the team the Fergie did with United. If he starts going backwards year on year then sack him, until then back him like a true blue would.

I think its clear to anyone the club is in a better position now than any time in the 15 years.We may not play total football but were geting there!Afew more quality additions and keep hold of our better players and we’l be a team who will be challenging! although weather the bard come up the the goods for the transfers is another matter!

You can take any "facts" and doctor them to suit your prejudice. Let’s pretend I hate Catterick as much as you hate Moyes...
Harry Catterick took some beating as a dour, po-faced manager. He is, therefore, crap. From Aug 1966 to may 1970 he never won a toss (yeah! yeah!...but losing semis and finals just shows what a loser he was). So again, crap manager on the winning front. He had all the resources of the 1960s Abramovitch during those "wildnerness" years. What a wastrel..should’ve been sacked! Point was though, Luq, that non-winning Everton side played the greatest, entertaining, play with a grin football I’ve ever seen. All irrelevant to your argument I suppose but got a bit bored at work today.

Luq you need a little perspective fella, some optimism and a huge dose of reality. When Moyes took over from Walter Smith he with was left with a mammoth task that consisted of an ageing squad, lack of fitness throughout the ranks, poor tatics and a team bankrupt of ideas. Smith has even gone on record to apologise for leaving Moyes with little in the way of prospects and a squad bordering on geriatric. It’s taken Moyes five years to get where we are now, he has undoubtedly made mistakes along the way but it goes without saying that we are in better shape now than any other time since the 1980’s.

Luq,

A month or so ago there was a poll on Toffeeweb in which (if I remember correctly) about 90% of the voters were generally happy with Moyes as the Everton manager. There wasn’t much comment from the editorial staff (needless to say).

I know that such strength of feeling doesn’t mean that the voters were right but, in politics, such a result would be described as a "land slide".

Doesn’t it make you think that you might just be a tad wrong?

Steve

Luq, you say Moyes’ record is "reads as incredibly average". Based against whose record? There is no basis for this arguement unless you can back it up. How have the other managers done, say Martin Jol, or even Ferguson in his first 5 years? You are masquerading opinion as fact.

What a stupid comment.

Since the Premier League began we’ve been flirting with relegation or had a bad/average season every year apart from 95/96. We were bad enough, and should have gone down in 97/98 because we were terrible. Since Moyes has come along we’ve finished in the top 7 on 3 occassions. No, it’s not brilliant but it’s much better than any of the other managers have achieved since the late eighties.

Luq. I don’t believe we’ve met.

I’ve obviously read most of you vitriolic mumblings on here but until now have never felt the need to respond to any of your comments.

However, you have named me as a Moyes zealot. I don’t believe that I am and from my three or four posts was surprised that you’d gained that opinion of me.

I try to comment with an open mind and in the past have mentioned that Moyes could be doing a lot better but progress is slowly being made. I once said that I was sad to see the back of Mark Hughes, and I recently defended John Holmes’ sensible opinion that until the transfers start happening or we miss out on our main targets we should wait before we hang Moyes.

I think that’s the sum of my posting on here but maybe It’s not that I’m a Moyes apologist that grates you, but rather I spoke in support of John Holmes’ recent post.

Above all of this, what that has really upset me is my lack of moniker. ’Barking mad’ David and ’Silly season’ Sam Morrison both get a mention yet I am plain old Ben Howard. Maybe I could be Ben ’Crazy legs’ Howard from now on?

Your posts amuse me Luq and I’m always keen to hear what fantasy world you’re currently residing in. Keep up the good work! ;-)

What is the point of this article? It says nothing that hasn’t been trotted out a thousand times before and once again totally misses the point. Moyes is neither ’myth’ nor ’master’, thus rendering the entire thread of the article as a waste of time. There is no distinction between a ’Moyes lover’ and an ’Everton supporter, as he claims. David Moyes is a good manager who has done well for Everton, yes he could have done some things a lot better, but I’d much rather have him than most of the managers in the Premiership. He only fails in comparison to the ’Big Four’ who, frankly DO have more resources and are able to attract better players. To use the word ’hate’ is also ridiculous. I suggest a different dichotomy, there are ’Moyes haters’ and there are ’Everton supporters’. No-one who genuinely wants Everton to do well could ’hate’ David Moyes. Do ’Moyes zealots’ even exist? Aren’t there just Everton supporters who like their manager, acknowledge the good job he does and want to support him, thus defending him against the idiotic ravings of those who think we should be winning the league every year?

Have we not progressed? When relegation loomed for so many years Smith did ok for a time but in the end he failed and his players were unmotivated and disorganised. I was there at Middlesborough to witness his final game. You cannot say Moyes has failed when you see the increase in player spend and salaries at the clubs around us. I imagine if you compare money spent versus league position, irrespective of income from player sales EFC would be sitting quite nicely - what more can you ask when several clubs can afford +£20 million players, or several £10 million players. We have a team of players, many of which are gambles from the lower leagues, that the manager motivates to a higher level than they have shown at previous clubs. Moyes isn't pefect and i am not a zealot. I am a realist and i can see progress on the pitch, in the club finances and in the league table - Rome wasn't built in a day and EFC will not be at the pinnacle of the English Game just 5 years after virtual financial ruin and escape from relegation. The Premier League will be even tougher for us next year - squads will improve from West Ham to Newcsatle, from Spurs to Aston Villa ...it's just a good job we have a better man to manage our team than those clubs.
For the shortsighted maybe progress is invisible - look long term and we have a manager who has started well, lowered the average age of the squad, improved the team, is young enough to learn from his mistakes and has an unquestionable ability to unearth lower league talent, introduce young players and motivate players to higher levels.

I just can’t let this ludicrous revisionist nonsense about Walter Smith go unchallenged. It is an indisputable fact that Walter Smith was one of, if not the, worst managers we have had in 50 years. He was detached, uninvolved, uninspired and frankly just not successful. You only have to look at the infamous parade of superannuated hasbeens and pathetic nearly-weres that he gave high paying sinecures to at Goodison to see what was going on. Everton became a pension plan for his old drinking pals while he sold off hot young prospects like Michael Ball and Richard Dunne on the cheap. When he was fired - two seasons too late in my view - Everton was at a low ebb. Moyes has turned that around. There may be an argument that we need another manager to take us up to the next level. That’s a useful debate. But don’t believe that Smith was anything other than an unmitigated disaster for Everton and if he had stayed we would have gone down and we’d most likely still be in the Championship. Some of the very same people who claimed back then that nobody could do a better job than Smith, today complain about Moyes’ record, who has already done a better job. It’s simple: we were perennial relegation candidates; we are perennial European challengers. It’s progress. You think Beattie’s a bad signing? Try watching Ibrahima Bakayoko. Some great players did come to Everton but fled when they learned what Smith was all about. Dacourt & Materazzi to name but two. Frankly, if you believe he wasn’t a crap manager, you’re either deceiving yourself or you just weren’t there. And when he left, there wasn’t exactly a queue of Premiership clubs lining up to bring him on board. If we ever fire Moyes he’ll be working at another Premiership club in the time it takes you to say Walter Smith’s name.

Luq Yussef can moan all he likes about Moyes he won’t convince anyone who appreciates what Moyes has done for Everton to change their mind.It doesn’t matter anyway, BK loves the "bones of him" and whatever anyone says thats the way it is.

Moyes has improved the team beyond recognition from Smith’s time in charge.There is obvious improvement in the team and although it has been a slow and at times a painful progression I don’t see why it won’t continue.

I’m old enough to remember Harry Catterick, he really had a personallity problem, the players called him "Black Harry" but he still produced good football teams.He had tremendous financial backing which Moyes dosn’t have.I think Moyes is OK when dealing with the Media and his transfer dealings are generally good. Every Manager buys some failures no matter how successful they are, just look at Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Venger and Jose Morihno records to see that nobody gets it right all of the time.

Moyes has improved over time there are signs that the styly of play is getting better as he brings in better players. I’m qietly optomistic that this will continue but no doubt Luke Joseph will continue to moan as will the other malcontent TonyMarsh .Being an Evertonian is not easy, even when I was a boy I watched games with some one nearby moaning about this player or that. Some people are never satisfied.

Oh for the mythical thing that is a unified fan base?!
Irrespective of one’s own view, is it not a ’no brainer’ that because Moyes is NOT going to be replaced in the short term (not that he shd be in my view) we may as well all give him and his charges 100% backing when it matters.

luq ask yourself this...who else can do the job that moyes has done to everton?
we used to be fighting relagation a couple of years ago now we are fighting to break the top 4!!!

Michael, you ask all to treat this piece as a discussion yet IMHO this "discussion" shows a lamentable lack of objectivity about it.

I’ve been an Evertonian since 1983.

I’ve read the books about how great Dixie was and what a talent Lawton was. Vernon, Ball, Harvey, Kendall, Royle, Lyons, the Vision...I can reel the names and feats off. I just hate the fact that most of them were never captured on film!

I experienced (all too briefly) the glow of the mid- to late-80s.

Unfortunately I also saw the gradual degradation, despite a season-and-a-half of magic from Royle, through to the shambles that was the appointment of HK mk III. So much so that I even cheered for Walter Smith initially.

This was what Everton was....the present. Forget your glory stories, they’re nice, but the team was getting hammered left, right and centre every other week. It just goes to show how bad things are if your highlight is the signing of a Gazza or a Ginola....way past their best, overweight and on the look out for one last pay day.

One man has changed that. If a manager must be called to task when the team do badly, with the ultimate penalty being the loss of his job, surely the credit should go to him if results are on the up.

David Moyes is responsible for the position we are in.

That we can even contemplate going on a UEFA campaign is something that makes me proud to be an Everton fan. For all those claiming that you should be proud to be a fan no matter what, believe me: this is a different and perhaps more satisfying type of pride.

Let’s not get carried away, it’s not been plain sailing. We’ve flogged off our most naturally creative player in a generation or two, scored a record low of goals in a season and in patches have played stuff that’s dreadful.

But I wouldn’t swap him for anyone. I doubt whether Beneathus, Mourinho, SAF, Curbishley, Pardew or even Coppell could do a better job working within the perceived framework at Goodison.

So have a pop at him if you wish, but do so with objectivity not the bile that is spewed by some on this site (I won’t name names)...the man has got us to a position where we can actually build something!

Good Grief! He?s at it again. He reminds me of those London based Liverpool fans who ring in to 606 and complain bitterly every week about something. I guess you were just short of material today, Mr Kenrick, but at least he?s drawn a big response - a bit like that other depressing soul, Tony Marsh. Nothing wrong with high standards, Luq - just try and remember we are getting to that level and that it takes time. Be patient and stop making a fool of yourself.

Sorry Tony M, Luq Y. Whether you believe it's because he's as "thick as thieves" with Kenwright, or because of the outstanding job he's doing, the consensus seems to be his job's as safe as houses. At least with things being quiet there's a chance for you to work on some new material for next season!

Luq, I have to guess,as I do not know you that you are in your early thirties.

As a child of the Thatcher era you probably think money is the answer to all of our problems.Your age would also probably help us understand that you became an Evertonian during the glory years.

You obviously think like the s#### on the opposite end of the park and are so bitter you have no other reasoning than to shout about the lack of silverware.

Look at the history of English Football and you will begin to understand that there is more passion to it than just a couple of great seasons. Success has always been cyclical and some have sustained it more than others.

Even buisness investors only look for an average of 8-12% return.

As you no doubt love the great atmosphere offered by success , instead of perpetual wingeing try and be a bit more supportive. The old adage says a smile does you more good than a frown

Whilst it does go some way overboard I can fully understabd some of the sentiment behind Luq’s post.

As he may have gone overboard in his condemnation of Moyes there are far more people who go overboard when assesing his ’achievements’.

To my mind Moyes has done a decent job over years, no more no less. Enough to ensure that he retains the honour of being manager of the great Everton FC going into a 6th year.

My personal reservations are two-fold really. Firstly he has shown in the past that, whilst he can undoubtedly acheive relative success on a ’shoestring’, he is maybe a little out of his depth when given a sizeable transfer budget and when he feels the pressure of expectation. All of Moyes’s ’successes’ have come when little was expected, on the back of failure if you will.

My second reservation, and this is a real sticking point for me, is that I just don’t like the man. Quite the opposite of this ’hard working, honest, loyal and decent’ fellow that the vast majority of Evertonians appear to see I see a very cold, shrewd, self centred, self important and egotistical man. I see a man who puts his own personal reputation before all else. When we finish 4th or 6th or 7th it’s ’Moyes the magician’. When we finish 17th though, or more stomach churningly piss away an opportunity like the 2005 season, there is no sight of this ’honest and decent’ man, instead, all I heard was a plethora of excuses ranging from referees to bad luck to ’this club has been in a bad way for such a long time’ etc. Playing down our great football club as an ’also ran’ in order to build up his own achievements. I won’t accept that.

This summer is again a crucial opportunity to progress us from a ’done well to finish 6th’ side to a ’Everton shoud be expected to finish in the top 6’ side. I still need convincing he is the man for the job when it comes to the crunch.

I think what probably drives Luq’s post most of all though is the blinkered view many of you seem to have of Moyes. IMHO Mark Hughes and Sam Allardyce, to name just two, have done at least as good, if not better, jobs than Moyes of recent seasons. I don’t think that view is widely accepted though.

The very real danger I see going into next season, if the right players aren’t acquired, is stagnation. With stagnation comes apathy.

It may sound a little churlish but to my mind turning up to the game every week with an apathetic mindset is the worst fate a football fan can face.

When that time comes, a gamble though it may be, it’s time for change.

David Jones,are you kidding me?Im not sure if you arent Luq using another name. I actually think that if you are another person, I would like to put you, Luq and Tony Marsh in a room so that the 3 of you can discuss how you intend to go about criticising(not constructively) our beloved football club.
Your description of Moyes is particularly troubling. Yes,he has made mistakes but name one great manager who never made any. Like many REAL fans of our club, I feel that we are moving forward and just need some more time. I have never felt this good about our team and club in years.
This year is a pivotal year-i agree. I also think its pivotal that people like yourself learn to accept that success isnt instant and acting like a spoilt, tantrum-throwing child will not help.

I can see you are passionate but
sorry Luq you are talking utter crap.
I am not Moyes biggest fan but feel his achievements so far are acceptable considering what he was left with after Smith.
I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion but yours are just complete and utter nonsense (in my opinion).
Just one question Luq, if you are so knowledgeable, who would have done better as EFC manager over the last five years?

Load of utter shite. Walter Smith was taking us to Division 1, he himself admits he was a disaster at Everton. Ok, we havn’t wom anything but the only thing we could possibly win is the League Cup. No-One outside the current top-4 has won league since 1995, no-one outside the top-4 has won the FA cup since 1995, this shows the that winning silverware is no-longer the judge-ment of a managers success. Finishing 4th, 6th and 7th actually has meant a massive deal. Firstly it means you attract players who are good, not players like Gazza, Ginola, Ward, Gough... Secondly, in terms of money finishing in top-7 3 times will have earned Everton alot of money, 500k-1million per league place, also under Moyes we are on television more, so thats even more money. Put things in perspective, the difference in money between Everton and the top-4 is huge. AJ was a record signing at 8.6million, something Liverpool spent 10 years ago on a single player (Stan Collymore). AJ, Beattie, Kroldrup, Lescott, Yobo and Barmby are the only Everton players bought over the 5million mark. We spend 5 million and the player is a first-team must, 5 million for the top-4 is for a squad player. Chelsea spend 9million on a sub defender, liverpool spend 6.7 on Pennant and is seen as a small signing. If the top-4 sign a flop at 10 million, which they all have - Diouf, Saha, Reyes and Chelsea have got a tram-full it means nothing. Beattie and Kroldrup (due to failure to adapt and injury) and Davies have been flops, but other than that everyone else has been a gem, we got more money for Bent, Kilbane so they were good buys. McFadden cost 1million so cant be seen as a flop. Also Moyes achieved the 5 year plan which was to get everton in Europe, which he has achieved 2 times out of 3 seasons. He has built a team with a great work ethic, with its touch of class. He has done a great job so far, imagine if he got sacked there would be shock and awe around the league, and he would get a new job within 2 weeks, that is testament to a man taking everton forward. So please, start putting things that at least make senseon this site.