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Free Money, More Fans, Better Beer

By Tony Nixon :  23/07/2007 :  Comments (46) :

It's official. Everything we thought we knew about money is completely wrong. Everything we thought we knew about football supporters is rubbish. And, naturally, it doesn't matter if we're in Kirkby, Hoylake or me ma's backyard.

So much bitterness has been generated about the ballot that Agent Wyness's job has been half done for him. He has failed to quote a figure he hasn't changed or a scenario he hasn't backtracked on. His optimism is breathtaking; his vision of a Kirkbyless future, a child's nightmare. Go to Kirkby and there'll be free money, more box holders, more fans, and kiosks overflowing with milk, honey and the amber gold. Stay in Walton and you're voting for a future filled with stale bread, water and falling attendances.

The man is a fool but he was appointed by Kenwright and is being used as the shield to deflect criticism away from Kenwright. Let's try to help him sort out his confused thinking, shall we? Let's start by pointing out there is no such thing as free money, Keith. If Tesco are giving you something, they want something back of equal value in return. If they didn't, the shareholders in that company could take an unhealthy interest in the transaction and severe penalties would ensue. Let's repeat that. The money just isn't free.

Corporate Box takers want to entertain their clients. If there's a poor atmosphere in a below capacity stadium with dull, unenterprising football, they won't take the boxes. And, unless Wyness / Kenwright have come up with a trick which has escaped every other ground developing club since 1970, there are a good few years of inadequate spending on players yet to come. We can hear them respond, that there'll be an extra ten million to spend on players in three or four years' time. Just like Kenwright was going to support Moyes with money this summer? And, even if this ten million pounds ? made from God knows what source, ? does find it's way into Davey's locker, what on earth will it buy us then?

Support will increase, won't it? Why? Are these ardent Evertonians being locked away on matchdays? Are the hills of Lancashire alive with the sound of frustrated would-be fans whose one desire is to see a new ground before they invest hard-won wages in the club? And if we stay, our support will dwindle? How dare they? If either Wyness or Kenwright truly believe this, their brains must resemble the deposits made by bears in woods!

Oh, and the desire to stay at Goodison or, at worst, the city, is JUST emotion? Dreams are a real currency in football. That, after all, is what the club are selling. Week after week, year after year, we roll up hoping, praying, that just this once the boys efforts will resemble what we have in our heads. And if a city-based club is part of those dreams, take account of them. Evertons chips are no better than Wing Fu's down the road; their beer is every bit as tasteless as the Dog and Duck's, their rip-off merchandise no cheaper than that found at any pop festival. No, Mr. Wyness, we don't come to Goodison for these things, you are the trustee of our dreams, so tread very lightly indeed.

Many column inches have been devoted to the ins and outs of staying put, finding another city-based location or moving to Kirkby. They deal, superficially, with hard facts which on closer examination are very thin in number and larded with a coating of hope. In my view, 'yes' fans are effectively saying that anything has to be better than this. In a very genuine and understandable desire to get out of the red shadow, they are prepared to gamble all on this move in the hope that somehow, anyhow, it will come good and the glory days will return. They will be tempted to ignore the many twists and turns in the Club's statements, the emotional tug of Goodison and the city, the inconsistencies of argument just simply to do better. To win that elusive trophy. But having dealt with the nonsenses of the Club's current position (and who can say that it won't have changed by lunchtime and again by teatime), let me turn to what I believe may be the real position.

Imagine you have a dog for sale. It's seen better days and, God knows, that bout of distemper didn't do it any good. So, you run a comb through its coat, clip its paws and maybe invest in a ribbon to tie in its hair. It still limps a bit and you wouldn't want to let the buyer get too near because of the smell, but, you end up with a sellable proposition. You stick an ad in the classifieds and wait for the phone calls.

As distasteful as I find the Club's manoeuverings, two aspects of the current debate concern me more. The first is the squalid nature of the abuse hurled at one or another side of the debate by supporters. The second is the self-appointed priesthood of Evertonians. For those tempted to accuse others of treachery or stupidity, try to remember that debate is a healthy thing but abuse destroys comradeship. As much as you might feel the need to put across your point with a pint or two of vitriol, see in your mind's eye sheer glee of the Kopites as they see our wonderful support base cracked from side to side.

And for those who proclaim they have supported the club for thirty years and truly know what it's all about: nonsense. You were neither elected nor asked to be holier than thou. The fact that my grandfather first watched the club in 1908, my father in 1925 and me in 1964 doesn't confer on me any greater wisdom than the boy from a red family turning up at Goodison for his first game.

I'm going to vote no because I don't believe the facts the current ownership publishes nor the hopes that they hold out to fans desperate for some sign of hope. I'll vote no because I do believe that there are alternatives out there which can be found with diligent searching. I'll vote no because I want a home fit for heroes. I'll vote no because I believe the symbolism of a move outside the city boundaries, no matter how arbitrarily they were drawn, will be food and drinkto our misguided and deluded cousins.

But I'll vote no above all because Wyness and Kenwright have trodden heavily on my dreams and bruised them, declaring that Dean, Lawton, Ball, Latchford and others are of no account ... just ghosts. Well, Mr. Wyness, there was a Golden Ghost at Goodison once (but you wouldn't know about that, would you?) and to me his play is as real today as it was over forty years ago. If you want me to leave that ghost, start telling me the truth and inspire me to think that your plans have nothing to do with a sordid, backdoor, deal somewhere up the line. Until you do, thousands of us will oppose you.

Reader Comments

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Andy McNabb
1   Posted 24/07/2007 at 03:35:34

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Great article, something about nails and heads comes to mind. Thanks for the comment about lording it over those who disagree with us. I too would vote against Kirby for exactly the same reasons but above all, we have to stick together on this one. Argument and discussion are what it is all about WITHOUT pressing the self destruct button.
bones
2   Posted 24/07/2007 at 03:44:12

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Wyness is one of the best at his job in the league. He has made Everton Fc one of the few clubs moving forward without throwing our identity into the hands of some money hungry businessman.

True progress and change requires a bit of hurt, will always boil the emotions and if you have a weak person in charge, they will crumble at the presure and another backwards step will be taken. (in refering to the imfamous 90’s.

Wyness is sticking to his guns, those who slate him so badly (ala this article) should look to see if they could do better, Id hazzard a guess to say not.

I support the 3 of them, maynot be the miricle cure but the clubs health is definately on the up. It’s hard work and dedications vs liposution.
brian sephton
3   Posted 24/07/2007 at 05:06:53

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Fine article 99% in agreement and very well put but dont answer no yet you dont know the question and that is a trick whyness is playing on us all but for me Kirby -no
Chris Davies
4   Posted 24/07/2007 at 06:44:22

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Quote ’I’ll vote no because I want a home fit for heroes’. This phraze sums up your article as hyped up over inflated emotional nonsense. You are a fan I am a fan nothing more. For the life of me I can’t understand why the club are putting it to a vote. Kenwright owns the club, he should decide and then get on with it. We shouldn’t have a say, we are not shareholders we dont have a financial stake in this, its hypocracy to think otherwise. THis thing about the city boundary is a load of bollox as well. I’ve supported the toffees since Bingham days from North Wales and then London. I don’t give a toss if they move four miles. Those that do, expand your horizons a bit. Its a big world out there don’t be frightened. Its not as if your shares are at risk is it. There are far more important things in life to worry about. Its amazing how people can build themselves up so that they really believe that the sighting of a football stadium really matters- it doesn’t, I assure you. A few years down the line people will have forgotten and moved on. get some perspective!
John Ball
5   Posted 24/07/2007 at 07:04:15

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A very good article with some very good points, and I feel we should stay in the city. I was brought up in Knowsley and have supported the blues for more than forty years. We were the first team in Liverpool and lets not forget the great history we have. It would be easy to say shove it to Liverpool City Council for thier lack of support they show us compared to the other lot. But no, we in my opinion belong in the city. However my biggest worry is that this is all propaganda and regardless of the outcome of any ballot we won’t really have a say.
John S
6   Posted 24/07/2007 at 08:31:59

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Great article and one that made me re-consider our options. However, on reflection our options continue to be limited; stay at Goodison and risk eventually fading away a la Sheffield Wednesday, seek another inner-Liverpool site which we cannot afford or move to as new stadium in Kirkby.

I’m sorry but the first two options feel very real because it’s been that way for the last 10-20 years so let’s be assertive in our decision making and move to a stadium and location that allows us to grow again. Goodison in the longer term just is not an option for growing the club in the new 21st century age of Premiership football.
ian
7   Posted 24/07/2007 at 09:22:04

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time to mve on ,all these other options which are supposed to be available to us, if you listen to certain councillors, all require something that our beloved club is short of, money, we dont have any ,lets take the tesco millions and lets try to catch up with the likes of derby,wigan and bolton
Robert Davies
8   Posted 24/07/2007 at 08:34:42

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For a summer of expected excitement of transfer comings and goings and the blues preparing to cross the channel for a European campaign - I have become bitterly disappointed and disillusioned. Not with the club, the manager, or even the board but with us, the fans! All I have heard for the past month or so is winging about, why haven’t we bought anymore players, why hasn’t anyone invested in us, why are we looking to move to Kirby.
I feel drained by it all - ask yourself would you change our position now with that of 5years ago - I would much rather only have to think about what stage of the UEFA Cup we are going to get knocked out in and our new stadium regardless of where it is than the thought of buying Ginola - Gascoigne - Bakayoko and a season of almost certain relegation!!!! In a short space of time we as a club and a team have come on leaps and bounds under the tutelage of Kenwright, Wyness & most importantly Moyes. I find it hard to believe anyone can doubt that they have the clubs best interests at heart.
I believe the opportunity to move to Kirby is,
1 - too good to pass up from a financial perspective and 2 - As hard as it is for me to say we are number 2 in our great city to Liverpool and it is no good being a number 2 anywhere, by moving we can create a new chapter in our illustrious history, one of promise, excitement and genuine potential.
Also on a separate note, for all of you blowing the horn on Kenwright for not sell when an apparent multi millionaire has approached him - ask yourself the question, as a huge Evertonian as I am sure you all are and as is Kenwright, how easily would you let go of the club you love, have always loved and will always love, unless it was an absolutely astonishingly attractive bid with great promise of direction and future investment I don’t think you would sell either, I know I wouldn’t. Huge amounts of money does not make a team successful, a great manager makes a team successful, there are countless examples of this in the modern game. When Moyes was appointed there where more than a few eyebrows raised about his appoint, mine included, but I don’t think anyone could argue that he has been nothing short of astounding. Let?s not forget who had the foresight and faith to bring him in, yes, Kenwright - if he is happy to move to Kirby than so am I!!
Tom
9   Posted 24/07/2007 at 09:34:37

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What are you on about? Dean, Young are ghosts?

You can’t stay at a ground because of the past, the future is more important.

But you don’t care about that, you will vote no out of pure spite.
Alan Hampson
10   Posted 24/07/2007 at 09:30:08

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Chris Davies,

I think you need your head examining saying that we should not have a vote and that they should a stadium wherever they like, can I just remind you that Everton Football Club is "THE PEOPLE’S CLUB"... We pay into the club to go and watch them so we "Deserve" a vote on where our club is going.

VOTE NO TO KIRKBY....Anyone agree?
Dan Mckie
11   Posted 24/07/2007 at 09:44:35

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Everton’s history will remain the same weather we move or not,thats a fact and Goodison park will be remembered fondly by us all,but we do need to move and the deal (or what we know of it) sounds very good for the club! Kenwright may not have the money that some other chairman have but we are making progress without loads of cash and I have to say that if they say the Kirkby deal will make Everton more money then I believe them because why would BK lie about something like that? Do people think he wants to bankrupt the club and himself?
Steve Lyth
12   Posted 24/07/2007 at 09:52:19

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For all those willing to take the Tesco silver, dont say you were not warned, Tony,s article says it all.Just say NO
Rob F
13   Posted 24/07/2007 at 10:08:27

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Why should we be warned about taking Tesco’s silver? I agree, there is no such thing as free money, but in return Tesco are getting a huge new development that will attract 40,000+ people a week for the next 100 years. The infrastructure that will serve it will also serve shoppers, giving them quick easy access to a huge new flagship store ? lots of return for them there.

Also, it astonishes me that you dont see the discrepancies between this point (that Tesco will want something in return), and the cry for a billionaire sugar daddy. If ANYONE put their money into a club, they would want something in return - at least with Tesco we will have a highly successful company, run by an Everton fan, and not some dodgy Russian whose business associates are all in jail.

ITS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY.
Dave Sheedy
14   Posted 24/07/2007 at 10:18:34

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Tony, good article but still no credible allternative to Kirkby!!!
All the fans who plan to say no ask yourself where you see Everton in 5,10,15 years time because all I can see is financial meltdown.
Whether we like it or not football is all about finances Goodison can not provide sustainable finances a new stadium can and will.
My last point is I take my 2 boys to many away games and it pains me when I go to places like Wigan and Bolton and my boys ask "why can’t we have a ground like this" imagine how many new fans we can bring to a proud new stadium. unfortunately apart from it’s imense history Goodison just doesn’t cut it any more.
Dave Sheedy
15   Posted 24/07/2007 at 10:18:34

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Tony, good article but still no credible allternative to Kirkby!!!
All the fans who plan to say no ask yourself where you see Everton in 5,10,15 years time because all I can see is financial meltdown.
Whether we like it or not football is all about finances Goodison can not provide sustainable finances a new stadium can and will.
My last point is I take my 2 boys to many away games and it pains me when I go to places like Wigan and Bolton and my boys ask "why can’t we have a ground like this" imagine how many new fans we can bring to a proud new stadium. unfortunately apart from it’s imense history Goodison just doesn’t cut it any more.
Andrew Bulmer
16   Posted 24/07/2007 at 10:28:41

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What’s so compelling about an article that begins with a clutch of absurd absolutes, breaks it’s own rules regarding insults directly thereafter. Arrogantly claims to aid confused thinking and immediately begins a diatribe based on it’s own false premise. Free Money ???!! Lordy lordy!? It’s a deal. All parties are trying to get the best they can out of it for themselves.

I, like you Tony, (i really do, tee hee) am struggling to know who and what to trust.
We are all unsure of the future. We would all like to possess all of the information that we would need to make the best decision we can at that time. The real world as we know isn’t like that.

This stadium debate is proving to a cognitively maturing generation of blues that things are rarely black and white (like that ed. ?)

The deal appears to be a very good one. Tremendous even given our clubs current situation. Finance, infrastructure etc. Those wishing to convince people not to support the move need to come up with truly compelling alternatives. It’s simply not enough to attack and attempt to destroy. Build your own alternative that can be believed in. Even if it’s only initially an idea that can be cherished as much the dreams Tony rightly says we need to protect.
Mark Austin
17   Posted 24/07/2007 at 12:14:49

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- The deal is a good one.
- Everyone benefits.
- The stadium can be operational in a few years.
- We can afford it.
- It’s four miles away for gods sake.
Lets just crack on and get it sorted.
ian
18   Posted 24/07/2007 at 12:24:55

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totally agree with andrew and marks statements, its no-good trying to disguise your own views ...its the only "potentially real" offer nobody else has anything concret...we could debate this for years and fall even further behind!
Andy Lynch
19   Posted 24/07/2007 at 12:27:17

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This whole state of affairs was bound to be divisive, and the debate is welcomed. However, what I find intolerable is the dismissal of the emotions of the issue.

Goodison means a lot to me, as it does to the vast majority of our supporters, and these ties cannot be dismissed because it’s good for business.

Our history makes us what we are, if we take no account of it, what will we have left?
Steve Povey
20   Posted 24/07/2007 at 12:37:42

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This article is typical Toffeeweb pessmistic views. Can the "NO" clan not see we have to move? Goodison is old and falling down, yes there are great memories there, but we have to move on to bigger and better things. Being born in 1981, i dont really know how it feels to win trophies, but I want that feeling I really do, and the only way to do that I feel is to move on to bigger and better things. And has for having a go at Kenwright and Wyness, lets look at where we were 5 years ago??
Lee Spargo
21   Posted 24/07/2007 at 13:01:17

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I stopped reading after the 2nd paragraph.

We’re going to Kirkby - deal with it.
Dean
22   Posted 24/07/2007 at 13:00:39

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More misty-eyed sentiment clouding judgement. Now we have actual proposals to look at, I am amazed at the sheer stupidity of some of my fellow blues.

Fact 1 - we have no money
Fact 2 - any scheme other than this will require money, see 1
Fact 3 - We have to move, see 1 & 2

So what are our options? Kirkby, that’s it, no ifs, no buts, that is OUR ONLY OPTION!!

Wake the fuck up you neolithic morons
Crusty
23   Posted 24/07/2007 at 13:20:19

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"Fact 1 - we have no money
Fact 2 - any scheme other than this will require money, see 1
Fact 3 - We have to move, see 1 & 2"

Fact 1 - agreed
Fact 2 - Really? Can I ask how you know this without even looking at any of the other options?
Fact 3 - Why? I hadn’t noticed that Goodison was about to fall down.

So by your arguements if we were being offered a 40000 seat stadium in Chester for free you’d go? After all if we don’t move tomorrow the club will end won’t it - prick.
J.harris
24   Posted 24/07/2007 at 13:37:54

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The only neolithic morons are the ones who refuse to think for themselves and who keep taking the bullshit Billy tablets.
THis board cant help but lie and be incompetent.For fuckds sake Wyness has changed the numbers at least 5 times and now says he doesnt really know just yet.How is that the deal of the century??
Yes we have improved of sorts over the last few years but who is to say it could not have been even better.WE could have invested for the champions league disaster and been ahead of the RS once again but this board (not Moyes)failed again.
When will people ever learn to open their eyes.All fans want the same so stop being divisive with each other and look at the facts.
I would not trust the future of this club with this board so a firm no to kirby until other more attractive locations are considered and if they cost more so what.
I would sooner put a bit more in for a brighter future than to sell our soul for a few shillings.
VOTE NO TO KIRBY.
Kev McGrath
25   Posted 24/07/2007 at 14:20:36

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KW does not have the money to take this club forward, if you do not have money then you can not afford to move home, Tesco is not a charity looking to help us out it is a multi-billion pound business looking to make a profit, and this will be at the expense of Everton, their shareholders do not give a fuck about our club they look after number one and the sooner people realise this the better, whilst LCC have not always helped us out, they shouldnt have to, Kenwright and Wyness are the people in charge of our business but the fact remains you can not run a football club through penny pinching and no investment, i almost feel sorry for wyness as he is probably good at his job but if KW has no money, i feel we must wait for someone who does! keioc
Matt
26   Posted 24/07/2007 at 14:17:29

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I’m not usally one to post on here, and i’m sure for my views alot will agree thats not a bad thing!
People say there is no such thing as free money... I ask you to look at a couple of points, maybe been stated on other posts but after reading all the replies to this one I coulden’t see any.
1. Mr Tesco UK is a die hard evertonian.
2. He wants to have a joint venture with his club, and lets be honest if any of us had that sort of cash woulden’t it be nice to think you were giving something to your team.
3. Building a 55,000 seater stadium on the doorstep of a Tesco Extra will increase revenue from supporters, and profits will rocket on match days.
4. Wyness may have some views we don’t all agree on, but lets be honest, he ain’t going to shaft Everton with some dead end deal, the Kirky project isn’t ideal, Goodison isn’t going to fall down overnight and we can’t guarentee that electricity only found at 2.55pm on a Saturday afternoon in the gladys street. But if you look at what Everton football club has to gain from the move surely you must know its the right thing to do.
Ian Ankers
27   Posted 24/07/2007 at 14:58:07

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I’m still undecided personally, but what I cannot understand is why us ’THE PEOPLE’s CLUB’ fans are at each other’s throats about it. Its about choice and opinion. At Goodison a fan sits in the Park End if he likes, another prefers the bullins. Should we argue with each other about this?? If a fan chooses to move, then fair enough, thats your opinion,. If another dislikes the idea, fair enough, vote against, but for pittys sake, lets not get so uptight with each other. We are starting to sound more like kopites by the day.
IDI
28   Posted 24/07/2007 at 15:09:29

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I AM DECIDED AND I SAY MOVE!! THE MEMORIES OF GOODISON WILL REMAIN FOR ME LONG AFTER THE STADIUM IS GONE. I DON’T NEED GOODISON TO REMIND ME OF ALL THE GOOD AND BAD TIMES! LETS MOVE HOME AND WHO KNOWS, IN A HUNDRED AND TWENTY ODD YEARS, PEOPLE MAY BE SPLIT OVER WEATHER WE SHOULD MOVE ON FROM OUR BELOVED KIRKBY HOME!HAVING SAID ALL THIS, I DO UNDERSTAND THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO STAY PUT AND ALOT OF THE POINTS THEY MAKE, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH, BUT WEIGHING UP THE FORS AND AGAINSTS, I’M ALL FOR THE MOVE
Ste Mac
29   Posted 24/07/2007 at 14:52:12

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Not everyone will be in agreement to this, however, to me, it is clear that if you are willing to say yes to kirkby. You have been blinded by the thought of a stadium on the cheap and pretty pictures. How will you feel when the doors of goodison are closed for good and the old dear is demolished. I know I for one will be crushed down to my soul.

If you were tesco would you say to a club, here build a stadium, we’ll even chip in, we dont want nothing in return, not even naming rights. The chances of that are slim to none. I will be voting NO to kirkby for a few reasons.

1. The history we have at goodison is hard to let go of.

2. We have yet to see a real outset of the plans with regards to finance(wyness has been very witholding when it comes to tescos interest in us)

3. There is no reason why given another season in europe, we cannot find funding from an outside source who will be willing to help us redevelop goodison, or a better sight within our city limits.
Steve Lyth
30   Posted 24/07/2007 at 15:07:56

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For all those advocating the move why dont you nail your colors to the mast and get the board to rename the team at the same time as the ground,
Y,know something appropriate like MK Dons instead of Wimbledon.
If you lot want to support Kirkby Town FC go ahead, cos if the club that leaves Liverpool it will have fuck all to do with its present name. There is absaloutely no need to vote on a ground move issue without viable alternatives being considered. We are being steam rollered into a move that suits the present board not the fans or future generations and that Ladies and Gentlemen is simply not right.
Colin Potter
31   Posted 24/07/2007 at 15:49:00

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The yes voters keep reminding us that Terry Leahy (Mr Tesco)is such a great Evertonian.Why then,have Tescos NEVER sponsered Everton!!
Kev McGrath
32   Posted 24/07/2007 at 16:31:59

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Terry Leahy may be a great evertonian, (if he is then why doesnt he buy KW out)but the people he answers to ie. the tesco shareholders have nothing to do with the club, if he wanted to spend 50million of his own money on us then fair enough but he isnt he is spending the shareholders (Tescos) money so therefore they will demand something in return, do you honestly believe the shareholders would sanction spending of that amount just because it is the club their boss claims to support, i think not!

Having done management at university I know that the person who puts the most money into a joint venture assumes the most amount of control effectively leaving the other partners limited or sometimes no power over decision making etc.

You get nothing for free! If you want the best you pay for the best and kirby is a long way short of the best our club moto deserves!
Ian A
33   Posted 24/07/2007 at 17:03:46

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QUOTE:You get nothing for free! If you want the best you pay for the best and kirby is a long way short of the best our club moto deserves!

AGREED, but....

when have we in the last 20 years ever got what our club deserves from the board or owners. We have no money (which is baffling, but aparently true) and none is forthcoming. So what do we do.
Someone give us a realistic alternative that is a likelyhood and not just a senario that you would like to see. Where in your heart of hearts do you see Everton in ten to fifteen years (REALISTICALLY)if we do not agree to this move. By the way, I am merely asking the question. I’d like Goodison redeveloped, but it aint guna happen!
Bob Fletcher
34   Posted 24/07/2007 at 17:10:28

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Steve Lyth if you moved house to somewhere else would you change your name. I don’t think so. So why should Everton. The moving arguments are getting silly on both sides of the issue.
Pigsy
35   Posted 24/07/2007 at 17:17:13

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Talking of motto’s. Can we stop this guff about being the people’s club. It was funny when it wound the RS up 5 years ago. Now it’s embarrassing. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum Forever! We may struggle to live up to it but at least strive for it. Peoples Club belittles our heritage, making us sound like we’re pleased just to turn up. VOTE NO while your at it to!
Smigger
36   Posted 24/07/2007 at 18:05:18

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I cant believe all this argueing between each other I am reading here.
So sod it...I am gonna have my 2 pennys worth.
If we where the only club in Liverpool there would be no objection to moving to Kirby, albiet only 4 miles done the road.
But the thing is we are not and I couldnt stand the thought of the RS new sloagan being "The only club in Liverpool" in years to come"

Not sure if its really my pride which is the real issue.

I think we should settle for nothing else but to stay in Liverpool.
Martin B
37   Posted 24/07/2007 at 17:08:48

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Mr Nixon should get a reality check, i thought it was the red side that was always moaning and cynical but it appears that some of us are becoming just as bad. Yes this is the biggest decision in Evertons history but lets look at some simple facts. Do you not believe that Bill Kenright, Keith Wyness have got Evertons best interests at heart ? do you not think that they have examined all the posibilities of alternate sites and finance for a move within the inner merseyside area, if there were opportunities to do so do you not think that they would have explored them and pursued them before the Kirby scenario was on the table?. So what have they come up with ? a new 50,000+ seater stadium that looks potentially fantastic, not restricted by space or logistic problems, all but paid for without Bill passing the hat round at intermission or rifling through Slys pockets !, we have minimal outlay and debt apart from the cost of internal fittings, also its located only a few miles up the road from the old stadium, additionally it will have excellent transport links and new facilities for fans and their families ie shopping, restaurants etc. There must other clubs around the country where their supporters are thinking how lucky we are, but some of us just cant see it !!. Then theres the "lets redevelope goodison" brigade, does anyone in their right mind think this is possible ?, attendances down by a 25% while a stand is demolished and replaced, nonsense and totally impractical, imagine the chaos and disruption of the logistics of construction and the fact that the surrounding area is locked in by housing give practically no scope for development.Would i welcome a new stadium in the inner city ?, yes of course, but you see the cost of land now, Liverpool is expanding rapidly and the Everton board know full well that without a business partner you havent a hope in hell of financing a new stadium on your own.Many clubs have moved and all for the better, dont you think other fans havent felt the same way when they left their clubs, but look how their attendances have risen and finances have improved, if they were honest they would never go back to the old situation, thats not to say you cannot hold memories and affection for those previous times, things change and move on. And heres a final thought, if you "no" voters to the move gain the majority that says we stay put and hope that a miraculous oasis will appear within L4, just think how you are going to feel when you see that shiny new 70,000 seater stadium of the Dark Side looming and casting a giant shadow over the Park End. How many will say how i wish we could have moved when we had the chance. A new stadium proposal, a state of the art Finch Farm training facility ready for occupancy,UEFA cup football,debt now under control, a sensible Manager who yer missus would trust with the houskeeping, three players signed already for just 4 mill !, and believe me the big signings havent happened yet, the powders dry but expect a big bang soon, we aint going into Europe for a day trip to Ostend, were going on tour and doing the round trip. Come on you blues, weve never had it so good
Martin B
38   Posted 24/07/2007 at 17:08:48

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Mr Nixon should get a reality check, i thought it was the red side that was always moaning and cynical but it appears that some of us are becoming just as bad. Yes this is the biggest decision in Evertons history but lets look at some simple facts. Do you not believe that Bill Kenright, Keith Wyness have got Evertons best interests at heart ? do you not think that they have examined all the posibilities of alternate sites and finance for a move within the inner merseyside area, if there were opportunities to do so do you not think that they would have explored them and pursued them before the Kirby scenario was on the table?. So what have they come up with ? a new 50,000+ seater stadium that looks potentially fantastic, not restricted by space or logistic problems, all but paid for without Bill passing the hat round at intermission or rifling through Slys pockets !, we have minimal outlay and debt apart from the cost of internal fittings, also its located only a few miles up the road from the old stadium, additionally it will have excellent transport links and new facilities for fans and their families ie shopping, restaurants etc. There must other clubs around the country where their supporters are thinking how lucky we are, but some of us just cant see it !!. Then theres the "lets redevelope goodison" brigade, does anyone in their right mind think this is possible ?, attendances down by a 25% while a stand is demolished and replaced, nonsense and totally impractical, imagine the chaos and disruption of the logistics of construction and the fact that the surrounding area is locked in by housing give practically no scope for development.Would i welcome a new stadium in the inner city ?, yes of course, but you see the cost of land now, Liverpool is expanding rapidly and the Everton board know full well that without a business partner you havent a hope in hell of financing a new stadium on your own.Many clubs have moved and all for the better, dont you think other fans havent felt the same way when they left their clubs, but look how their attendances have risen and finances have improved, if they were honest they would never go back to the old situation, thats not to say you cannot hold memories and affection for those previous times, things change and move on. And heres a final thought, if you "no" voters to the move gain the majority that says we stay put and hope that a miraculous oasis will appear within L4, just think how you are going to feel when you see that shiny new 70,000 seater stadium of the Dark Side looming and casting a giant shadow over the Park End. How many will say how i wish we could have moved when we had the chance. A new stadium proposal, a state of the art Finch Farm training facility ready for occupancy,UEFA cup football,debt now under control, a sensible Manager who yer missus would trust with the houskeeping, three players signed already for just 4 mill !, and believe me the big signings havent happened yet, the powders dry but expect a big bang soon, we aint going into Europe for a day trip to Ostend, were going on tour and doing the round trip. Come on you blues, weve never had it so good
Mike Squires
39   Posted 24/07/2007 at 19:54:32

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This post is just another whinge from the "Flat Earth Society" Tony is just to scared to venture over the horizon to Kirby. There are no real alternatives to this proposal only if’s,but’s and maybe’s. If the Club does nothing there’s not much future for us. We’ve been messing about since Johnson first brought it to our attention that we have to move. It’s time to get on with it.Staying in the City limits just because we don’t like the idea of the shite crowing and smirking at us is a pathetic excuse for not moving. They’ve been doing that for years as we have declined as one of the elite clubs in the Country to what we are now. We need a new stadium thats the bottom line and this proposal is the best option we’ve got.
Nathan Heyes
40   Posted 24/07/2007 at 22:34:58

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Bolton moved to a decent stadium, away from a history packed Burnden Park.
Man City moved to a decent stadium, away from a history packed Maine Road.
Arsenal moved to decent stadium, away from a history packed Highbury.
Derby moved to a decent stadium.
Middlesboro, Sunderland, even a mega succesful rugby league side in Wigan have moved. This has not changed their histories.
Surely if we are to compete for the prawn munchers money, we need to provide decent surroundings.
Evertons history will always be there.
Steve Lyth
41   Posted 25/07/2007 at 09:10:42

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Bob Fletcher, your analogy is silly, the only time an individual would change his name if moved away by forced events would be under the witness protection programme.Everton are not being forced to move, the board have decided this is the best course of action and they wish to rename the ground to suit circumstances.WTF has the name Everton got to do with Kirkby ?
John Rotnes
42   Posted 25/07/2007 at 10:40:12

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Why scream and shout about moving 4 miles? Everton-fan here, and I live in Trondheim, Norway, the home of Rosenborg (pretty sure u have heard about the club, played in the Champions League 10 times). They had to upgrade their facilities, and they redeveloped Lerkendal, the homeground, because the site was big enough to do so. Our club has got a proud history and it represents our city. That wouldn’t have changed if they had to move. If they had to move, that would have been ok. Even if it was only a few miles, or just outside the city boundaries (if there wasn’t any other options). Rosenborg will always be the team from Trondheim, Norway, just as much as Everton will be THE team from Liverpool, England. Location, location, location. The memories of Goodison and Bellefield will live on forever. People who run big clubs know their business well and they should be well supported, especially if the club is going in the right direction, just like Everton. EFC need to move on, and this is a perfect opportunity to do so. Vote YES! NSNO!
Tony Nixon
43   Posted 25/07/2007 at 12:39:31

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If people found the article arrogant, apologies. It was certainly unintentional.


ItIt’s emotive? You bet! But in my defence, don’t I try to put across the case for the central value of emotion in football?

"A clutch of absolutes" ... yes. It’s a recognised feature of style to catch people’s attention. Do we sing, Everton Are Magic, or Everton Are A Reasonably Pleasing Higher Mid Table Side?

Has the argument been advanced? Doesn’t seem so to me. I’ll obviously go along with however the vote turns out; I just hope that the article might perhaps cause ’yes’ folks to examine the notion of free money and more fans. For my part, I don’t believe in THOSE kind of dreams.

No voters are neither cave dwellers nor vicious cynics as cosy as those notions may be for supporters of the scheme. Without being either arrogant or stylistically offensive, to suggest we are is playing into the hands of the dancing Kopites.
Mike
44   Posted 25/07/2007 at 12:52:16

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Strikes me that the yes camp has flown its true colours. "I stopped reading after bthe second paragraph". "We’re moving. Deal with it".

Are these the new(est) examples of Everton fascism? A complete inability to deal properly with those who have the temerity to disagree?

Let’s hope there’s some mileage in the Scotland Road scheme - it might heal some of the wounds.

Tony, for me you’re spot on.
Dave Thompson
45   Posted 25/07/2007 at 13:41:27

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For those who support the move to Kirkby....could any one of you explain how it’s a fanstastic deal?

So far, we have heard a range of figures from £50M to £150M quoted.

Everton’s input is somewhere between £10M and £50M, assuming someone pays £15M for Goodison and we get somewhere between £15M and £25M for naming rights.

Who will underwrite any over-run costs?

If we have to borrow more money, how will that impact upon the "up to £10M the Myoes will have to spend"?

How can you say it’s a fantastic deal when even our CEO admits he does not know the answers to some of these questions?

Assuming the worst case scenario - it costs more than we expect and we get less for Goodison and naming rights than we expect, and therefore the money available to the manager is not forthcoming, how will the team be improved and how will extra fans and corporate money be attracted?

How many existing fans will lose interest if the team is not successful in Kirkby?

Please tell me that in considering your "Yes" vote, you’ve thought through the worst case, and not just the sugar-coated stuff that’s been put out so far.
Chris Taylor
46   Posted 25/07/2007 at 15:14:25

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I think the comparison with MK Dons is not fair. That was a move of over 100 miles with the idea of abandoning one fan base in the hope of establishing a larger one. To attract a new fan base they changed the name to make it relevant and more attractive.

What has Kirby got to do with Everton? Well currently it is what most Evertonians are talking about and in four years it may be the home of the great club. Then that is all it will be known for in most the country.

Things change and new history will be written no matter where we are.

Regarding worse case scenarios and cost over-run. This will apply wherever we move to. I don’t know who is covering the risk but with a retail partner (unlike on our own) there is a chance we aren’t absorbing all the risk (also working with a leading company may provide expertise at managing these risks we don’t have and would have to pay for).

There are also worse case scenarios for staying where we are. This is a less risky approach. This depends on whether you think the rest of the league is moving forward and being risk averse makes a slow death likely.

In terms of considering options the club has done this - the judgment is that we should accept the financial benefits of a retail partner (both gain financially albeit at the cost of a less attractive site and some "Tesco value" jibes).

Financing a stadium on our own would require new finance or prohibitive debt. Even with new finance they’d want a return and a well run club (Abramovich style investor aside) and would be drawn towards a similar scheme.

It is not sensible to fully draw up 4 or 5 proposals due to cost. There probably even fewer options. Especially as some are likely to be very expensive such as redeveloping Goodison (due to land constraints and lost seats during development).


When judging which way to vote fans should consider the alternatives.

In terms of moving to an alternative new ground you must accept the risks of where we will fall in the following spectrum.

At one end either a new suitable retail site that is pleasing for partners combined with additional finance (from somewhere - whether further TV resources (which other clubs with modern stadia would spend on players) or from a new investor with Bill and other shareholders prepared to sell a significant share which many doubt). This allows the building of a better stadium in a preferable location. Especially good if they are so rich and happy to spend that we don’t need a retail partner.

The other end of the spectrum is moving in the direction of where we are now with the Kings Dock. I think we all wish this had succeeded and that the latest option is inferior. Will we be here in 6 years time lamenting the latest option and wishing we hadn?t missed the Kirby option? What will further delays cost us while other clubs benefit from extra revenue from their better facilities.

Moving from Goodison will be painful wherever we go but my fear is that staying ? particularly with a 78,000 seat modern stadium on our door step ? will be more painful as it will cement our decline from challenging for top honours.

We all want the best.

The best is the best we can get.

I like many others am not convinced we can stay where we are in the long run and compete.

I hope those that reject that move but accept we need to move are more confident than I over the prospect of a better deal in the future.

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