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The 3-Card-Trick Vote

By Kevin Latham :  25/07/2007 :  Comments (43) :

Why are we fed this nonsense about the fans having a vote in the future of the ground? We all know that the 'result' of the vote will be a move to Kirkby, irrespective of what Evertonians really want. The club (through Keith Wyness, who, as I've written before, has no real love for Everton, it's just his day job) have made a big issue of this vote and are preening that EFC is the only club to involve the fans in this way.

But what kind of a vote will it be?

Anybody can make any ballot result say what they want if they ask the right questions — and as there's no plan B, they will ask the right questions. Incidentally, how is it that the CEO of a multi-million pound business doesn't have a plan B when the future of the business is at issue? Isn't it part of his job to have a contingency plan? Even guys on market stalls — Kirkby market for example — have a plan B when it concerns their future.

Despite the sentimentality, most people would now sadly concede that the case to leave the Old Lady has been made, however the case is far from made for a move to Kirkby, in my view. I just feel that the we're being taken for idiots in the way that the club are trying to manipulate things, and I'll bet all the pies Beattie can eat that the ballot when it comes will be a stark choice between staying at Goodison or moving to Kirkby.

The isuue then becomes a no-brainer when you consider the state of Goodison so, hey, the ballot will confirm what the club have told us all along. The club will tell us that we ARE the People's Club because it gave us a say in the future and the city's oldest club will toddle off out of the city leaving it to the redshite. So what, you may say, it doesn't matter where we are because we're still Everton. Well, in years to come when young kids identify with the 'only' Liverpool club, the club that the Echo rams down our throats daily and the city council's club of choice, you may take a different view.

I hope I'm wrong on that, I really do. But somehow I doubt it. We've been backed into a corner by the club's intransigence over the years and Kirkby here we come when we should have been on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey for less than what we will have to put in to the new ground. Greg Murphy's excellent piece "Too Late To Cry" on the site tells the whole sorry tale of how we've been sold down the river, even if we didn't actually build a stadium on it.

And one last thing about this new gaff we're getting. Unless I've missed it from the images of inside the ground, where is the Everton iconography? Where is the stamp to show you're in Everton's ground, the club of such outstanding tradition? Now we have the church in the corner and the Archie Leach stand design but the new place seems to have nothing except blue seats that could belong to Bristol Rovers or Colchester or any other side in blue. I know there are some who think that too much emphasis is given to Everton's tradition but it's that very tradition that has been handed down to many of us and made us Evertonians. So let's not underestimate it even if our CEO and Chairman (who should know better, wherever he is) do.

Yes, we're getting a choice on the future in the same way that Derren Brown would give you a choice with the three card trick, and the people will then have spoken — just the way we were always supposed to.

Reader Comments

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Blue Karl
1   Posted 25/07/2007 at 22:41:23

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You are so right, Kevin. However, Wyness is on film on this and other sites stating they will accept the vote, even 50.1% against. With the electoral reform people overseeing it, we can but hope. I will be interested to see exactly where we send the forms - to Everton or the Society?

As Evertonians, we have to vote against this (it’s a rubbish design in the wrong place ) and hope this persuades Kenwright to let in other investment which we all know is out there, but doesn’t want to play second fiddle to him. We have to think beyond the ends of our noses and see a longer term rather than get railroaded to Kirkby. If Birmingham and Blackburn can attract investment then we surely can. Sure they want a return, but they’ll build you a proper stadium in the right place to get that return.
Ste Mac
2   Posted 25/07/2007 at 22:49:35

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Excellent article, and I think it probably captures what every fan against this move, is probably thinking.

The two things that really worry me about all this have nothing to do with kings dock or stanley park or anyother past issues, but the lack of any other option in KW’s mind, and also the lack of comments from blue bill. Why hasnt he been out and said anything much on this, he was all over the press wen the kings dock was an option.

I just wonder, does all this mean that even KW and BK do not agree on this matter and its been given to KW to sell the deal to the fans and find out what they want so kenwright doenst get to have his say in this matter.
Gerard Madden
3   Posted 25/07/2007 at 22:54:30

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Utter nonesense, no other clubs fans get to vote on their future like this and with the electoral society no less overseeing it to boot.

I think evertonians whether pro or anti Kirkby are intelligent enough to answer the questions correctly depending on what their viewpoint on the move is. Incidentally the RS didn’t have a plan B either - or a vote. Jeez.
Tony Marsh
4   Posted 25/07/2007 at 23:18:49

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Gerard the RS dont need a plan b
they always get what they want and thier plan A didnt consist of leaving Liverpool did it?
No club the size of Everton in this country to my knowledge has wanted to leave the city of origin.Thats what makes this whole thing so worrying and hard to take. Nil Satis remember
Rupert Sullivan
5   Posted 25/07/2007 at 23:21:54

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Great article Kevin, I find myself agreeing with almost everything you say. For me the issue is one of leaving Liverpool to LFC. Although I appreciate that this is a purely emotional argument, I do feel that it is important to remain in Liverpool. Moving aweay somehow feels like a defeat.

Gerard - it isn’t about being intelligent, it is about having the information on which to base a decision. The stuff with which the fans have been provided is sparse, sometimes contradictory and concerns only Kirkby and not the alternatives - which in my mind is not enough on which to base a decision!
Charlie
6   Posted 25/07/2007 at 23:33:42

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Whats the difference where we play whether it be kirkby or timbuctoo we are still miles better than liverPOO
Ste
7   Posted 26/07/2007 at 01:20:01

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We need to stick TOGETHER on this bollocks and somehow get a grip of these shitbags(lieness n billy bullshit) and tell them what its all about for US and the future of this club
Blue_Singh
8   Posted 26/07/2007 at 07:12:54

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Irrespective of the decision that will be taken after, or irrespective of the outcome from the voting, either ’yes’ win or ’no’, what I only hope is the Evertonian must get united again and back our team as we always did. Remember United we win divided we fall.
David Flanagan
9   Posted 26/07/2007 at 07:39:08

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Having read most of the recent articles I have to put across my views.Leaving Goodison is a must and has been for 10 years so what has the club done since the collapse of the KIngs Dock.I get the impression very little.LCC and EFC should have been meeting regulary to discuss sites,partners and possible investment but it never happened.EFC under BK cannot attract investment but why.Ok we have debt but so do newcastle and City.The reason is Bk will not give up his position.Therefore our only choice in the most important decision we will have to make in my lifetime is Kirkby...not much of a choice is it.I’ve nothing against Tesco particulary but a business our side should have alternatives...we’ve had years to sort them out.We are and never have been a forward thinking club since the John Moores days.Kirkby will happen whether we like it or not..
Peter Pridgeon
10   Posted 26/07/2007 at 08:31:40

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Great article, by leaving the city we leave it to future generations to support the dark side, this is the only real issue here. Wyness does not care about this and Kenwright has no credibility anymore.
Don’t trust the bastards they are selling Everton short.
If you do not have a plan B you should not be in the position you are
Carver Manton
11   Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:03:48

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What’s all this talk of Plan B?The Board could have a dozen alternatives and Evertonians would look for more.We are becoming the biggest band of moaners in football.
We either go or stay.No brainer,really!
Lol
12   Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:33:49

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can anyone tell if the vote will be 1 vote per share, or 1 vote per shareholder?
Alan Whittle
13   Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:32:22

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To be honest, I have now read enough information about the vote and the move to Kirkby. And I vote NO.

However, I don?t get to vote because I have only spent £250 on tickets and merchandise this season.

Though I don?t match the criteria of the ballot, I still intend to have my say. On the morning of the last day of the vote I shall be sending an e-mail to Everton FC saying that I do not want club that I have supported all my life (and until the end of my life) to move out of the city. Also, I do not have the confidence in the current board to find Everton FC a new home and feel it is time for this board to move on.

Will they give a flying fck about my e-mail? ? Defiantly not.
Will they give a flying fck about the e-mail of 10 supporters? - Defiantly not.
How about 100 supporters, will they take notice? ? maybe catch their attention
How about 1000 supporters? 5000 supporters?

I?m a member of the peoples club ? I will have my say. If you?re thinking that Everton FC will not be interested in anything I have to e-mail them about, you are probably right, but at least I?m trying to take some action and I ask you all to stop wasting effort whinging and do the same.
Rupert Sullivan
14   Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:23:55

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I’m with you on that one Alan - I will be doing the same as you mate.
Mike Hughes
15   Posted 26/07/2007 at 10:55:46

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I do qualify for the vote and I’m voting "No" to moving out of the city. That is the crux of the matter for me regardless of how the questions on the ballot are phrased or structured. Everything about this feels wrong - especially the way things are phrased "No Plan B" etc. This is a long-term decision which affects the future support base of the club. I understand the counter-arguments about finance etc. but there is a will - albeit belately from LCC - to keep EFC in OUR CITY. Where there’s a will there’s a way. I think a "NO" vote will trigger some positive solutions ...... just a gut feeling. Even a delapidated Goodison is superior in my mind for a few years than some soul-less out-of-town "Riverside", "Reebok" etc. Just say "NO".
Stu.
16   Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:06:18

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Its about time all you opposed to kirkby moved into the 21st century, the club we love is lagging behind the likes of Bolton, Wigan, Portsmouth etc, this is an embarassment to me.
If we vote NO, how far behind them will we be in another 5 years when still at goodison. It may not be the best option but it is the only one that can see us move forward in the next few years.
Andy
17   Posted 26/07/2007 at 09:52:59

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I am swayed to say no to Kirkby despite it being more convenient for me for several reasons. I completely agree that we have to move however the information given by KW has been appalling when compared to LFC’s press release yesterday. My initial reaction to the Kirkby design was one of being underwhelmed with no "wow" factor. My reaction to LFC’s launch was the complete opposite. I would also agree with Kevin in that you should connect tradition in considering the vote. To me it looked like Blackburn with a makeover, nothing special. I would love them to incorporate Archie Leach’s criss-cross steel and some form of church monalith to the design. I want something I can be proud of... sorry KW, four sides doesn’t make it iconic on its own! I hope we Everton fans stick together on this, support the lads on the field but also stick together and show KW and BK that nothing but the best will do.
Paul
18   Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:20:20

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I am still unsure about which way I will vote, but it’s worth saying this. For once the club is giving the fans a voice, and by God no one in their right mind can possibly say that this issue has not had healthy discussion and thought beforehand. I have never ever seen an issue about Everton or anything else football related discussed, analysed, re analysed, argued about, theorised on or just plain done to death as this one. Ever. We will all have an informed choice at any rate! Toffeeweb alone could publish a book on this topic, without the numerous interviews and articles issued by the club. And please calm down re: location. We’re not moving to North Wales. Kirkby is as scouse as Church Street for goodness sake, it’s an arbitary boundary and nothing the kopites say should bother us in that respect. We know our history and nothing they say will alter that. One other thing. Let’s give Wyness a break. he isn’t Satan, he’s not got an ulterior sinister motive, he’s an objective businessman who is trying to implement what he genuinely believes is the best option for the business he runs. He knocks our previous bosses into a cocked hat to boot. Michael Dunford? I haven’t decided which way to vote but let’s give the doe eyed sentiment and wild conspiracy theories a rest eh?
john
19   Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:44:03

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The answer has to be no to the move.

Moving out of the city is symbolic - and in this sport, that’s important. There is no answer to the question of so called ’free’ money ... it doesn’t exist. Too many lies have been told which should shout to everyone, something here stinks.
Peter Laing
20   Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:12:14

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Problem though Kevin is we are living in the brutal world of the 21st century, I agree that the iconography of the new stadium is imperative, the afformentioned st Luke’s church and criss-cross of the Archibald Leitch bullens road though are hardly visible these days from within the ground being masked by the facade of advertising hoardings and jumbo TV screens. Identity these days unfortunately comes a big second to the revenue streams that are required to generate an income.
Lee Spargo
21   Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:19:06

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We’re not leaving Liverpool you Morons.

It’s only a political boundry - it’s not a ’border’.

Fot all intents and purposes, Kirkby is a part of Liverpool.

FFS, we have the chance to move to a fantastic new ground, and I hope that we do so whilst sticking two fingers up to LFC, LCC and the Echo.

I support Everton Football Club, not Liverpool City Council.

COYB.
Matt C
22   Posted 26/07/2007 at 11:32:28

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We have to face facts. There is alternatives to the Kirkby move however they cost too much money. It would make absolutely no financial sense to try and redevelop Goodison, it’d be like throwing money down the drain.

The Scotland Road site would be to expensive as we’d have to pay for land and build with no real commercial partner supporting us.

If we do not move now, the costs will spiral in terms of maintaining Goodison and if the new safety measures (green guide) are enforced it could also reduce our capacity!


It’s now or never I feel and I’ll be voting to move.
David Roscoe
23   Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:28:16

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In answer to what type of vote this should be, I think it will end up being reasonably fair. The involvement of the Electoral Reform Society should ensure that the question will be reasonably fair. Also, I would be very surprised if we returned our voting papers to anyone but the Electoral Reform Society ? Everton Football Club should not be involved in that part of the process. The position of the Board is clear and they will certainly try to influence how the question is framed, but it is the job of the ERS to keep them in check.

The ERS will also have had input in determining which group of supporters are eligible to vote. The club would have needed to have provided auditable records of its supporters? database, which is probably why we have the proposed voting population (recent season ticket holders, shareholders. Evertonia members). Again, not perfect, but probably the best solution available in the context of maintaining independent scrutiny.

So, as I said in a previous article, don?t ignore your opportunity to vote if you have one. We are probably all still scarred by the experience of the Peter Johnson votes in the 90?s. They were about as loaded as you could get, but this one should be different. It is still true that Keith Wyness could ignore the outcome of the vote (if it went against him) and press on with Kirkby regardless. However, he is now actually on record saying that a vote against would be binding, so I?m finding it increasingly difficult to see how he can ignore the vote if it doesn?t go the way he hopes. The best thing we can do, though, is to vote, whether in favour or against. At least with a high turnout, we have a reasonably fair impression of the views of a significant proportion of the fanbase.

In respect of how to cast your vote, I personally believe that if you think the proposal put together by the board is a good one, vote in favour. If you are not totally convinced by the proposal, but you are sure that we need to leave Goodison and believe the board?s assertion that this will be the only option (in the next 5-10 years, for example), then vote in favour. If you don?t fall into either of these categories, it seems to me that you should vote against. For the record, I?m still a ?No? and can?t see that changing at the moment, but I will retain an open mind.
Pete
24   Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:30:44

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If so many of us fans are against the Kirkby move, why not voice our opinion publically at a rally or demonstration - Its should be organised to voice the opinion of the blue half of merseyside and not just those eligable to vote? Other than that, say nothing, bend over and be shafted, and start planning you bus routes to Kirkby - see you on the 14C. . .
Matt Geraghty
25   Posted 26/07/2007 at 12:56:51

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I get a vote, and after reading and re-reading the pro/anti views, I am voting yes.
I love Goodison as much as the next, and if possible would like to redevelop it, but we’re skint, so that won’t happen.
As a non-scouser, the location does not really bother me - it’ll be closer to home. But the stadium plans that have been submitted look poor, especially in comparison with rs.
ken merchant
26   Posted 26/07/2007 at 13:15:59

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To Matt Geraghty...

you get a vote and you will vote YES, location doesn’t bother you but you think the plans look poor.

I could weep at the stupidity of that post. God save us all.
Mark Stone
27   Posted 26/07/2007 at 14:45:11

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I think the stadium plans looks good, and it is situated in a conveniant location only 4 miles from the current ground. I will be voting yes, and only hope that people like the majority of those on this site will fail in their attempts to cease Kenwright and Wyness’ ambitous plans to progress our club. Redevelop Goodison Park ... give me a bloody break!
Nick
28   Posted 26/07/2007 at 14:37:07

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I’m not from Liverpool, I follow the club and don’t particularly care about the city, however, even I can see that leaving the city would have a detrimental effect on the long term future, fan base and over all success. This move has to be stopped, I can’t believe that a club the size of Everton is being railroaded into something; it appears the vast majority of its supporters do not want. Surely there is a solution that would keep us within the city, deliver a good quality stadium and most importantly help us to improve the team so that we can compete against the best in the country.
chris roberts
29   Posted 26/07/2007 at 15:00:05

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Two things.

Firstly it is by no means clear that the vast majority do not want to move (however reluctantly in some cases) and secondly I’ve been told that when Goodison was built it lay outside the then city boundaries.

OK three. Woolwich Arsenal’s move from Kent borders to Islington was a shift of far greater magnitude than Everton’s four miles to Kirkby.

Oh alright four. In the end it’s the team we support above all.
Liam Wright
30   Posted 26/07/2007 at 15:26:44

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After seing The sh**es new stadium in the Echo, it just made me relise what a load of s**te are new stadium really is. It Really Is a Shed In Kirby

And 4 all of use who think that kirby’s in Liverpool because it has an ’L’ Postcode - well so does Ormskirk - L39 - You Want Us Playing Down there?
Hunter
31   Posted 26/07/2007 at 16:59:16

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According To Google Maps - Kirby is 5.3 Miles from Goodison, a bit futher than the 4 mile distance that the club keeps going on about.

Why are some blues even considering saying yes to this??

According To Wyness this stadium can only be re-devloped to fit 60,000 people at most. According to the fella from GFE - Liverpool turned down the Kings Dock because it could not be developed futher than 60,000.

My point is - what happens in a few yrs time when either - a) we become succesful and need a larger stadium to fit in all are fans?? or b) we start falling behind again because most of the prem(big clubs atleast) now have 60,000-65,000+ seater stadiums ?? If we can’t develop beyond 60,000 then arn’t we just gona have the same problems as what we have with Goodison Now??

Liverpools New stadium already makes are’s look crap so what about in years to come when more new grounds get built? Why do we wana build a stadium that will just be in the shadow of Liverpool’s New One?? COYB
Invisible Sun
32   Posted 26/07/2007 at 16:42:32

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I spite of being a supporter since the early 1980s , I have only been to Goodison on about four occasions. The last incidentally was the 3-0 of last autumn. In any event I for one are FOR the move to a new venue, be it Kirkby or whatever else may or may not transpire. Liverpool shitty council have ignored our please and treated us with apathy. Why stick two fingers up and them and move with someone who is prepared to invest and put time in our plight and time of need. Tescos are Britains leading food retail chain and will only get bigger. If we stay were we are, the ground will only deteriorate and there will be no finicial help or anyone to stabilise matters. In the aforementioned four visits I enjoyed it every time and the first in 1982 (THAT Sharp goal v Spurs) will live with we forever. But times change and with relatives in tower hill a move to Kirkby would be right up their street (quite literally). And as for that not being in Liverpool I would have to concur, more like a borderline argument. I would say that the true Liverpool area would end at the point of the A580 around Knowsley or seaforth towards crosby. With geography lesson aside, I would like to stay at goodison but common sense must prevail and a new stadium and financial backing is an imperative. And just who was the Idiot who proposed WARRINGTON! as the place where we should relocate. Either its April fools day or some gipsies camped out on a roundabout by the side of the A56 with delusions of grandeur.
kris driver
33   Posted 26/07/2007 at 17:37:06

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So the latest plan to give the new ground a unique feel? a church at each corner.
Now can we please all discuss which religions they should represent, do they support Everton first or a higher authority?
It will make the ground one of a kind and therefore you will be happy.
Paul English
34   Posted 26/07/2007 at 18:10:28

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Why cant we all vote 1st game of the season v Wigan, and let the board know, show of hands.suppose thats to complicated. No fiddle then!
billy sea
35   Posted 26/07/2007 at 18:29:11

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The loop would be the best option but i dont think we can raise the money. Just think town full of Evertonian’s every other week fantastic, just a short walk to the ground fantastic.I think though we will end up in Kirkby it will be down to money, oh and i LOVE our city just wish we could change it’s name ! !
Sean Rothwell
36   Posted 26/07/2007 at 18:48:44

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Why do all the ’no’ voters seem to suggest that this move is being thrust upon us by the Club? It isn’t. We’re going to vote democratically for or against it. These ’no’ voters also seem to dismiss the fact that a large proportion of Evertonians (remains to be seen how many) do want this move, presenting themselves as the only ones with the interests of the Club at heart. Sheer self-indulgence if you ask me.
People also seem to suggesting that the question will be unfair. More wishful thinking and looking for excuses as far as I can see. The vote will have two options, regardless of how it is worded; one will say yes to Kirkby, one will say no. That is the only way you need to interpret the question.
I will vote yes because I believe this is an excellent opportunity for the Club and the design looks top quality. Unlike many, I have no negative feelings towards Wyness or Kenwright and I know that to all intents and purposes that we are in no way leaving Liverpool therefore my judgement will not be clouded by any emotions, only by my hope that our Club will become great once again.
ian
37   Posted 26/07/2007 at 21:07:03

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Didnt everton move grounds the first time round because of the costs of playing at anfield its what made st domingos everton an seperated the blue from the red the realists from the moaners its part of football to do whats best for the club. Are all you moaners going to set up your own team lke the rs an stay at goodison if we are to go to kirby? isnt it ironic? your begining to sound like reds. Lets not worry about what the rs are doing lets concentrate on what were doing, were the everton of old worried about supporters staying at anfield when we left?
Matt Geraghty
38   Posted 27/07/2007 at 11:50:31

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Dear ken merchant,
Thanks for the comments on my recent post. However stupid my comments may seem to you, that is my opinion.

...And guess what?? the mailbag is about opinions!!

p.s rather than post negative, snide remarks, why don’t you subject us to some off your fantastic views. I’m sure they will be clear and concise!
ed
39   Posted 27/07/2007 at 12:39:16

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Dear Mr. Invisible Sun

You dont understand irony do you? I suggested Warrington because if you make Kirkby a viable option becuase of transport and infrastructure links then why not elsewhere (someone said they would still go if we played in Manchester). The point I was making was that the location matters!! doh! Location certainly matters to you (4 visits since 1980) I will get you a map pal.Those of us who have attended Goodison as season ticket holders for many years,followed them away in the UK and abroad do understand the importance of staying in the city. An excellent article by the way, some supporters would appear to have blind faith in Kenwright, Wyness and Tesco, god help us8
Brian Waring
40   Posted 27/07/2007 at 14:21:24

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Mark,I think you will find most of the’majority’understand we need to move.I also think you need to read some of the posts from anti-Kirkby fans with you blinkers off a bit more closely,because,you will find a lot of good arguements on why we should be looking to stay within the city.Why do you think you are right?Is it just because BK and Wyness say it’s the ’deal of the century’we should just pack up and follow the wise ones?A lot of fans have genuine concerns,and it has nothing to do with sentiment towards Goodison.It’s as if the anti fans are looked upon as hillbillies with no brains.
JR
41   Posted 27/07/2007 at 15:21:32

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I grew up on the other side of the world supporting Everton. I supported them for the colour of the shirt and the way they played. I had no idea they were based in Liverpool. The idea that people can stop this club growing and claiming its rightful place in the world of football for the sake of a line drawn on a map is disgraceful.
I understand that you want the club in Liverpool however it may be years before LCC come up with anything, or any investment will be made in the club. The way we are spending (ie we are not) and the other clubs are spending, the Premiership may have passed us by. We are looking at a deal which will give us an attractive new stadium, little debt and the chance to attract players of top quality to a club on the move.
All of you that can vote in this has to look to the future.
Like it or not, football is a business and there can be no room for sentiment in this decision.
vince ion
42   Posted 27/07/2007 at 16:25:41

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Kevin conspiracy theory or what! I dont think the qestion could be clearer or more fair. Bet you don’t come back with an apology though.I have supported Everton for 50 years in September, Goodison is in my blood and my Dad managed the Iron Lung (Queens Arms) on walton rd from 1960-1966, we then moved to open up the 2nd pub in Kirkby, the Park Brow. It’s not that far really try walking it because i used to to see the Blues, lets all get real if we miss this chance we may well move somewhere else eventually, but will have so much debt that we may never recover, I don’t have a vote these days as I live in North Notts and can only get to 6/7 games a year but if i did have one, having weighed up all the options and arguements it would have to be YES
Mick
43   Posted 27/07/2007 at 21:11:19

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If Wyness is willing to accept a 50.1% vote against the move to Kirkby and discontinue discussions with Knowsley and Tesco, then why did we not have the ballot prior to the ’exclusivity deal’ being signed. Then, if the majority of Evertonians were against the move, we could have sought other investors over the last 6 months and held discussions with LCC. The whole situation stinks and again, as usual it’s the people of the peoples club who are getting the run around. Everton need a new ground, but Everton need to stay in the city even more. And if it is something Kenwright and Wyness cannot deliver, then step aside and allow someone who is capable of drawing up not just plan b, but C & D to take the club forward.

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