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Two sides to every argument?

By Andy Lea :  06/08/2007 :  Comments (67) :
KEIOC think not!

Say no to Kirkby was the cry as I approached Goodison Park on July 31st. Werder Bremen were the visitors as part of the pre-season preparation and KEIOC saw an opportunity to rally support for their admirable campaign. It would seem, however, that those chosen to gain such support were not aware that some people would like to say yes to Kirkby - that some fans see Kirkby as a fresh start with a class stadium that could play a part in attracting a better standard of player

Along with two friends, one a blue the other a red, we made our way down City Road to the ?pay on the night? gate and there before us were a number of campaigners with stickers, banners and the like all urging us to ?Say no to Kirkby?.

As we drew closer one campaigner lunges towards me, sticker at the ready to slap on my suit (straight from work job) and splutters ?Saaay no to Keeerbie?. Once I realised he wasn?t in favour of banishing the game I loved playing as a child, and indeed was very good at, I politely refused the sticker by saying ?No thanks I say Yes? (I had picked up the phrase from some chap who made orange juice). ?Yeeer wot? was the intelligent response and so I reaffirmed my view which brought the reply ?Well you can fuck off then cant ya!!? Not wanting to cause a scene I laughed it off which drew the same response from Mr No ? I then heard his colleague say ?Wot wuz all dat abart den?. On hearing the interchange that had taken place I heard ?Just a fuckin knobhead den eh? Verbatim that?s what happened

I shouldn?t have been surprised but I was and on what had started as night I was looking forward to had become unnecessarily spoilt by these self righteous campaigners. In a throw back to Harry Enfield I could imagine these guys ?geeing? themselves up in the pub beforehand ? ?I should say Oi, Kenwright, Wyness, Nooooooo!? ?And you would be well within your right Ian?

Not for one minute am I going to put forward why I am so in favour of the move. The arguments for and against are there for all to see, take in, digest and make your mind up. These KEIOC people just need to realise that this game is all about opinion ? the beauty of opinion is that no-one is ever right or wrong. I haven?t seen any alternative that is either as attractive or, more to the point, as viable as the Kirkby project. The proposal to relocate to the Wallasey tunnel entrance smacked of desperation and the revamp of Goodison Park looked distinctly amateurish as well as completely unworkable.

I hope the Kirkby move happens ? yes technically we will be outside the city boundary but it never did Man Utd any harm did it?

Editorial note: Personal comments made in relation to Ian Macdonald of the Independent Blues (incidentally, not the "one campaigner" mentioned above) have been belatedly removed from this article. The author's assertion that Ian is the leader of KEIOC is incorrect ? he is merely a supporting member ? and the character assassination of a particular individual that this article contained was deemed as gratuitous and unnecessary in putting forward a viewpoint contrary to the KEIOC position.
Lyndon Lloyd

Reader Comments

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Michael Kenrick
1   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:32:43

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I think you make a great point, Andy. Here is a "statement" KEIOC wanted us to post this morning. I think it was written by the same bloke:
During our public consultation exercise on Friday 3rd August 2007 at ST Georges hall ,we used 1,300 ballot papers .Surely 90% OF Evertonians Cant be wrong in their heart felt desire to stay within the boundaries of our great City .We as the only campaign group in the great stadium debate, We would urge Everton football club to suspend the impending ballot and to consider the options within the city boundaries as presented by KEIOC at our consultation. If Everton believe that the proposed relocation to Kirkby is the ?Deal of the Century ?we challenge the peoples club to jointly with KEIOC, to take part in a duel public consultation exercise and allow the fans the opportunity consider all the facts ,all the possibilities and all the sites. Then the most passionate and loyal supporters in the country would be able to make a considered judgement.
Is that 90% of Evertonians? 90% of people who turned up?? OR did they have access to the ballot print run and have stuffed it with 1150 "NO" votes???
2   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:28:54

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i wish people would stop saying shite about Man U Being outside Manchester,and using it as an excuse towards us going to Kirkby
They have always played there and OT is about a 5 minute walk to Manchester City Centre,unlike Kirkby which is about 10 miles away from Liverpool City Centre.If Man U decided to uproot and move a further 10 miles away from there city centre,then they would cause absolute murder.
I,am voting No because i believe there are now other options available to us,and also the fact that i don,t have much faith in the current board to take us to another stadium.
Anyone who went to SGH on Friday would know that Bestway are willing to offer us the same financial deal that Tesco,s have but only this time the ground would be in the city of liverpool.
I understand they are going to release statements about this this week.
Tom Hughes
3   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:30:59

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Man Utd were never inside the Manchester boundary...... but they’re very close to the city-centre..... unlike Kirkby. Of course my eforts were amateurish, I am an amateur. I had no resources and very limited time, but that said I would challenge you to question any of the Technical content (such as it is for a concept), Otherwise your words are very cheap! How much technical content have we seen regarding the Kirkby proposal? and how much is it going to cost us now? The word "amateur" cannot be levelled at Trevor Skempton, he has been involved in much bigger projects than this. I would say it could readily be applied to a CEO who has come up with a "No Plan B" vote.
Aaron Smith
4   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:35:17

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I agree with what is being said here the guys protesting outside goodison could obviously have acted differently and so on but the fact is that they are right a move anywhere outside OUR city no matter how far or wide is WRONG, what good is a club without pride we are a club of great pride, we often here the shanty "pride of merseyside" things like this make a move away impossible, can you imagine the sad people from the other half of the city/spain/wirral and how they would speak of us and laugh at us more than they are right now being the pride of knowsley aint quite the same now is it, then you have silly things like kids growing up in the city there is no way, unless forced or pursuaded any child growing up would chose to support a club outside the city they live in they might aswell follow Real Madrid as it is not the distance that matters its the fact we would be outside our beloved city, i am so sick of all this stadium banter and don’t really care what happens as what is to be done will be done no matter how many ballots or protests there is the people upstairs will have the final say. The fact is that why should LFC have the city to theirselves this is not right i dont care where we move as long as it is in the boudaries of OUR city, if we are to move outside of it why not carry on going all the way to scotland or somewhere where there is limited competition then we could start winning things easier and have unlimited money.
Anna Spencer
5   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:43:15

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Im gonna say no! I was all for Kirkby, until i saw the bigger picture in that its not as the club put it, "do or die"! if Kirkby gets the vote, well i’ll be disappointed, but it wont stop me going, i support efc not where we’re at! But i do believe other options can be found, and that Kirkby isnt the only place we can afford to be as the club would have (and has obviously won votes thru) us believe! that says to me, we’re only going there cuz its all we can afford, that says to me second best!

I dont want second best, a town out in middle of no where in liverpool where no one will see us, just because Tesco have clapped there hands and Billy boy has seen an opportunity to not have to put his hand in his pocket, gets a new stadium out of it, in turn attracting business man with millions, and selling up at more than its worth now hence making millions!
6   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:46:57

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I for one appreciate the effort, hard work and commitment shown by those opposed to the kirby move, for whatever their reasons. Against metroploitan borough council, a premier league (sic) football club and a multi national corporation, these people have managed to pick holes in the argument to move. In 2 weeks thay have managed to display a passion not seen by the board, a willingness to lay bare their case and find 2 sites as alternatives, something that wyness et al haven’t managed to do in 2 years.
The amateurish approach is laughable unless you direct it towards wyness, at every opportunity he has managed to take a PR campaign and shoot himself in the foot. Just for once he should come out and say exactly what this move entails, instead of obfuscating, changing the capacity and costs, tugging at heartstrings (yes they do that too) and scaremongering. We know we’re not able to compete financially with the big guns, but in the same vein , we haven’t competed with them in the transfer market either, quid pro quo.

There is something rotten at the core, and though I don’t expect anyone to just take someone else’s word for it, I do ask that a moratorium be put on the kirby move and an open and transparent and objective look be given to alternatives found by , yes, amateurs, but whose heart, soul and efforts are in the interest of you, me and above all the club and name of EVERTON FC.
Dan Mckie
7   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:49:03

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I think they got the 90% purely because that the Evertonians in favour of the vote have stopped listening to KEIOC because of the distane and lack of respect that they show for anyone who doesnt agree with them!
8   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:54:58

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I completely agree with your point about the tone of the debate but would suggest that the foul mouthed ignorant aren’t confined to the ’no’ camp.

I’ll be voting ’no’ because I can see no compelling reason to go to Kirkby.

I have to add that it takes genius to split fans so deeply and bitterly. Shame on Kenwright!
9   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:01:13

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Hey Magicjuan, you get around!!! LOL! Your spot on as always, as is Tom Hughes! im glad he has come on in defence of himself and others, though Tom if you check out the IC liverpool forum ground debate you’ll see your not short of support!

I just hope what took place on Friday is enough to sway the "undeciders"! time will tell! keep up the good work!

Roll on saturday!
John Charles
10   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:11:35

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Tom Hughes:

I think many of us who are still voting Yes admired your work and idea’s. The problem is - through no fault of your own - its all about definitions of ’Plan B’s.

If your definition of Plan B is "You can build a stadium here look here it is" then sure, you have given us a plan B.,

But, if you are like me and want to know how it is funded, how much it costs, then your great looking and I am sure buildable stadium is not applicable. I am sure it could be built and I am sure it would be fabulous... but for what? 150-200m? or 20m per year interest payment with 30m pounds down to the bank?
..thats not a Plan B as the business can’t afford it. I do not see from a buisness perspective how the hotel on your plans funds the package. Again, not your fault. I am assuming your remit was to show a buildable stadium on goodison and I believe you have done that well... but if you havent got the money you cant build it.

Do you see the point of what many of us are saying?
chris taggart
11   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:12:19

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does anyone know if the ballot was carried out under the auspices of the ellectoral reform commission rules LOL

My vote (which was unanswered and thefore spoiled)must be part of the 10%

Didnt over 4000 attend why only 1300 votes?

Andy Lea
12   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:10:13

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Some lively responses and good to see such passion for the club.

To address some of the points raised

FACT Man Utd are outside the city boundaries like it or not - this has neither hindered or contrbuted to their success - it meant when they needed to expand they could.

LFC - its not a case of leaving the city to them, I am sick to death of over concern with what is going with our neighbours. My concern, focus, passion is for EFC and EFC alone. They are at a different level than us like it or not. The only time they concern me is derby day. Yes it makes victory sweeter when you hear they have lost but it doesnt take away from our victory if I hear they have won. Thats because I dont care about them - I care for and about EFC

I have no love for Wyness or Kenwright but so far this is the most economical, viable option for a new stadium - have we forgotton the Kings Dock fiasco. If you cant trust Tweedles Dee and Dum I certainly wouldnt question the business acumen of Sir Terry Leahy nor where his loyalty lies

Its right that we question why we fall behind in the investment stakes - I had it on good authority that in Apr 07 we were at advanced stages of due dilligence yet nothing has surfaced so we do require answers here.

I didnt mean offence with the word "amateurish" its just thats how it looked.

As for Ian Macs original piece "tugging on the heartstrings" smacks of double standards when you turn all Whitney Houston on us appealing on behalf of the kids.
13   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:34:25

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Finally some one with a brain and enough sense in their head to use it. Well in lad!
robert carney
14   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:21:34

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Andy, of course their are two sides to every argument, no-one is denying that.

What we are denied are the true facts to what interest in Everton from investors has been available and to the lamently stupid deal of exclusivity given to Tesco. A huge successful company with a landbank to die for but with the morals of the gutter.

Without the KEIOC campaign this would have been steamrollered through and a decision many feel will lead to the demise of our beloved club.

It is only in the last three weeks the NO campaign has really picked up and some people feel they have backed an Aintree horse which has fell at the first fence of asking.

Whilst not knowing any of the people involved nor ever speaking to any of them I feel they are getting the message across and people are now backing the horses in running if you get the jest.

Vote NO, for the future of Everton in the City Of Liverpool.
Alan Rodgers
15   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:47:42

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Surely the point is we are leaving the city to the dark side and gifting them future generations of fans. If LFC didnt exist I wouldnt be too bothered where we played but Kirkby would still be well down the list.Just say NO.
Tom Hughes
16   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:48:51

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John Charles: Unfortunately due to shortnotice the business plan wasn’t finished in time. This was further exacerbated by the appearance of the Loop proposal which has taken up all the experise to generate similar for that site in a very tight window. The redevelopment scheme is now well and truly on a back burner, which is perfectly understandable IMO. However, I can assure you, there are serious people following our proposals, and they all seem to think the finances are achievable
Ste Boileau
17   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:49:31

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John Charles, you talk about wanting to see costs and see how much the Goodison rebuild will be. Where are the costs for Kirkby? Bullys £35m rapidly became £50m, this will rise due to delays, labour costs etc. You cant have a go at Toms proposal based on lack of cost detail as there are 0 costs available for Kirkby, only what Wyness plucks out of the air. Kirkby is not a ’freebie’ we WILL have to pay for it and it WILL put us in massive debt.
Brian Finnigan
18   Posted 06/08/2007 at 14:53:54

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Andy Lea....I have read countless postings on the Kirkby issue and have submitted several postings myself but I have to say that your article is the first piece that I consider to be obnoxious.

The impression you give is of a Professor Higgins type (who wears a suit to work would you believe?) being accosted in his leisurely stroll by street urchins with no arse in their trousers and the vocabulary of losers and ne’er do wells. How dare you try to paint all Kirkby doubters or refuseniks as some lower order of mankind because a few you met at the Werder Bremen game despoiled your sophisticated night out?

You couldn’t wait to punctuate your piece with a self-acknowledgement of your own footballing talent as if this might make your vote somehow superior to those of the less-gifted. Are you the same Andy Lea that I have never heard of as a footballer? I thought so!

The most objectionable part of your article is your unwillingness to attempt to explain sensibly why, on the strength of the evidence presented by the Board, you are determined to vote yes. Don’t get me wrong I respect your right to vote whichever way you choose. However, I am curious that someone who was so willing to let us know that he wears a suit to work and was a footballer of some note should fail to take the opportunity to blind us with the brilliance of his exposition in favour of Kirkby. Arrogant beyond redemption!

You claim that you have not seen any alternative to Kirkby. Perhaps that is because people in authority do not want you to know that there might be alternatives. That’s yes. Allow those of us who believe that there might be an alternative a little time and opportunity (far less than Kenwright and co. have had to produce their less than convincing brochure)to explore possibilities. That is all that most of us are asking.

In the meantime, try to develop a greater tolerance of your fellow Evertonians. Not all of us will match your dress code or footballing ability but we do care just as passionately as you about Everton Football Club. Attempts to characterize those of us who are concerned about the nature of the Zimbabwe-type election that is being offered to us as some group of neanderthals and luddites is wide of the mark.
Andy Lea
19   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:54:55

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Alan Rodgers

Just so I understand - if we move to Kirkby then we will never attract another fan because we are outside the city boundary hence any future scouser will support LFC. That future parents will not encourage/bring up their offspring to support EFC. Thats the point you are making yes?

Are our neighbours not living proof that fanbases are based on what happens on the pitch? So we get that right and the future fans will look after themselves. Part of getting this right is a world class new stadium at minimum cost to EFC.
toffee rapper
20   Posted 06/08/2007 at 15:55:45

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Great article Andy, you have summed up the KEIOC in a nutshell! And if you think the abuse stops there, try to have a pro-kirkby stance on the KEIOC forums (no surprise there of course) BUT its exactly the same on the BlueKipper forums! Worth a scout around reading the remarks, abuse aplenty and no argument. Don’t know about other people, but I dont need a bunch of neanderthals to tell me how to think, I can come to my own conclusions thank you very much.

YES to Kirkby!
Ste Boileau
21   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:04:23

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Andy, "World Class" stadium??? Have you seen something that we all havent? All I have seen is an over dramatic set of sketch book images showing a run of the mill structure with not much character
Andy Lea
22   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:01:11

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Brian Finnigan

You have never played Kerbie have you sir?

As for all you Kikby refuseniks - these were the guys chosen for the job on the night.

Obnoxious and arrogant you may think - I simply dont care.

People who know me will scoff at you response - you have misjudged what the article set out to do and for that you need look no further than yourself.

Good day to you sir.
L Thorpe
23   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:15:31

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Instead of giving my daily input, I will offer everyone the chance to look at the likewise debates going on elsewhere on EFC sites such as BlueKipper and when skies are grey. Their arguments are just as articulate with everyone putting their two cents worth in. When the weather gets cooler I will get back and get things of my chest.Its far too nice to be indoors. Unless of course youre reading this on a laptop about a pleasure cruiser along the mersey. Doubt it though.
Brian Finnigan
24   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:11:56

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Andy Lea.....I haven’t lost my touch! I can detect an arrogant sod from many miles away. Your response to me (I simply don’t care) simply confirms my first opinion of you but I still defend your right to be wrong. I must admit though that I find it hard to believe that you have any friends. Finally, I am not a Kirkby refusenik but a seeker after the truth and your attempt to ridicule people because of their accents or vocabulary is both unworthy and childish. Never don’t care!
John S
25   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:03:08

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I’m with Andy and the ’Yes’ contingement. I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed with the recent public attitude of the highly vocal ’No’ voters that we are starting to see.

It seems to me a perception is growing that you are a better Evertonian if you vote ’No’ to Kirkby.

As Blues we are very fortunate that the current custodians of EFC have allowed us all the opportunity to vote on such a momentous decision. How may other clubs have allowed the approved fanbase duch a democratic opportunity? Not many.

Based on Andy’s article I am now concerned that an ’us and them’ ballot will be shortly upon us.
Iain D
26   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:13:12

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just a thought guys, maybe when people type kirby into google earth their getting the place over the water, not the ’kirkby’ just over the traditional m57 liverpool boundary... just a thought :-P
Andy Lea
27   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:30:58

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Dearest Brian,

You strike me as a "say it first think about it later" type. I do not want to descend into a slanging match despite your provocations. I am not here to judge anyone and am prone to swearing as the next person.

I did not claim to be a gifted footballer. No you have never heard of me as a footballer nor should you have. Kerbie, the way we played it as kids had nothing to do with footballing ability

These days its quite normal to wear a suit for work (hence I didnt want a sticker on it). Gone are the days when suits define standing (maybe you need to realise that).

"I simply dont care" was designed to wind you up (job done).

I said people who know me so not necessarily friends - we cant all be as popular as you.

I was born and raised 1 and half miles from Goodison and whilst it is apparent I am from Liverpool I dont have the "professional" scouse accent nor do I have the over the top accent (ala Carragher) of which there is no call for.

My point again was the lack of understanding that not everyone wishes to vote no, by campaigners assuming they speak for me. Upon hearing a different opinion I am verbally abused - is it wrong to object to that.

I havent tarred everyone with the same brush but feel free to feel at home with some of these mindless idiots.

I dont ridicule people because of their vocabulary or accents however if your objection to an opinion is to offer "fuck off" and label me a "knobhead" then there is a good chance I would take offence even if I were Dodgy Dave from Da Dingle.

Oh and I revise my earlier statement - I really do not care what you think of me as I dont know you nor would I like to.

Kind regards
Richard Worrall
28   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:39:15

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Tom - sorry you are wrong re. Man. Utd "were never inside the Manchester boundary". Newton Heath was incorporated into the M/cr boundary in 1890; NH became Man Utd in 1902, moving to Old Trafford in 1910.
29   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:26:37

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Well said Mr Finnigan. I bet you were better at footie than him as well.
chris roberts
30   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:50:15

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I have to agree with Andy that there is an aggressive element to the debate that has been largely of the no campaign’s making.

This is not to denegrate the hard work many have put in to opposing the move or to ignore the sarky tone that both sides have been guilty of on the various message boards -that is the nature partly of message boards-. However I think Andy is right to raise this issue and shouldn’t get more stick for doing so.

Tony Ainscough
31   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:48:18

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I agree with you Andy i am sick of being treated like a traitor or a sheep just because i am voting yes. I have weighed up all the facts and think it is good for the club, as for giving people time i have no inside knowledge of EFC but i knew about this 18 months ago even down to the stadium being based on colognes so why has it took so long for alternatives to surface by the way the song goes "were the pride of merseyside" not Liverpool
big blue bill
32   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:59:03

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When Goodison was originally built it was outside the Liverpool City boundary.
"If you know your history!"
phillip vickers
33   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:54:21

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just been lookin on the internet about bestway and on the board of directors there is not one english person i would just like to ask if anybody on here would trust them with millions of pounds of everton football clubs money in a foreign bank in a foreign country because i certainly would NOT
Tom Hughes
34   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:05:24

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Big blue bill:

The difference being, there was never any doubt then that the rapidly growing city (100,000 increase in population per decade pre 1890) would soon blanket Goodison Park and stretch many miles beyond it. This will never happen at Kirkby, we will be forever on the edge, even if it one day is taken up by the city, which doesn’t look too promising. Our Forefathers were faced with trying to find a big enough site in the most densely populated city in Western Europe, there was hardly any greenery in 19th century inner city Liverpool. The present custodians are faced with the complete opposite. A city inner core full of unintended parks and brownfield sites, ..... that are currently joining to form the biggest city-centre redevelopment in Europe. We are being sold a site that suits Tesco far more than it would ever suit a football club.
Andy Lea
35   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:25:06

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Whats an unintended park?

What did intend to be if not a park?

Oh where is Brian Finnegan when you need him?
Mark W (efcmark, rusty man)
36   Posted 06/08/2007 at 16:45:55

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Andy Lea and Brian Finnigan

Ah, another classic exchange though im not sure its suits versus cloth caps or just two more blues who are clearly part of a debate where there are so few facts and a shedload of emotion. Ian Mac does more for what we may term "ordinary" Evertonians than most of the internet posters put together. But he is far from perfect and I think he is wrong to defend the debate on a stance that seems to suggest that emotion is actually what its all about.

Of course Andy is going to be cheesed off Brian if what he encountered at the W Bremmen game is true. Ive been there. Its crazy. Some of the campaigners are passionate but seem to think that if you even mutter "yes" you must be a moron who cant possibly weigh up an argument and reach your own conclusion. There are few clear facts about Kirkby but a lot fewer about the strange looking plan B’s.

The basics about Kirkby will never in my view see us get a stadium for £20m or £30m. Im expecting a £40m bill for no better reason than I dont believe £20m is deliverable and the club have to spin this to some degree. But that will still be a bargain.

Tom Hughes and colleagues have given us a late spanner in the CEO’s works and thanks to KEOIC there really IS a debate. But I and others desperately need to know how that Loop site or even a "new" Goodison can be funded in a way that keeps the EFC contribution at the £30m to £40m mark and allows a slight chance we can survive the debt ?

Just to be clear. I trust Mr Bradley a lot less than EFC. I do not fancy living in the shadow of a LFC mega stadium that has benefited from the council’s despicable favouritism in handing over parkland they would refuse to EFC. I dont want to spend 4 years in a building site. But I would prefer to stay in the city, though genuinely Kirkby really is not an issue for me.

Maybe a focus on the Loop site might be just be what we how much, and what will it look like and who are the partners to make it happen ?

Robbie Muldoon
37   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:31:43

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The Tesco stadium is a cheap lego brick construction. Simply is not fit for EFC.

A combination of shit stadium, undesirable location, and being on Tesco’s dog lead is why I would VOTE NO.
phill vickers
38   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:45:40

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just glad to see no one has said that they would put millions of pounds of money in to a foreign bank who are only out to make money of everton which could be spent on players
Brian Finnigan
39   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:43:00

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Andy Lea.....I’m sorry I was away for a while....I have been making the tea. Oops! should I have said Dinner? Do we eat too early in our house to be part of your social set. I hope Wyness has made arrangements for the Kirkby Stadium to have stands designated according to socio-economic classes otherwise you might have to mix with the riff-raff again. Perish the thought! By the way the name is Finnigan....with two i’s. Enough of this Waltons rubbish (saying goodnight umpteen times) conversation with you is now ended.
John Charles
40   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:37:59

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Tom Hughes:

thanks for your reply. I am someone who deeply cares about the club, currently in the yes camp, but if I genuinely believed a business plan for goodison or the loop was achieveable id change to a No.

Can you give me some kind of rough outline with some rough estimates to how the funding package would work?

I’m not trying to catch you out or anything... i genuinely would vote no if someone could show me how another plan would work financially... i desperately want to be convinced in this manner.
Tim K
41   Posted 06/08/2007 at 17:37:09

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All I ask of the potential Yes voters is to wait until the full facts of the Loop proposal are out before making your final choice.

The Kirkby stadium is a very divisive issue but surely everyone would support a similar deal in the Loop?
chris taggart
42   Posted 06/08/2007 at 18:00:32

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does this mean i shoudnt wear my favorite prog rock band’s T-shirt on saturday you know YES, dont want it to be taken the wrong way:)
Tom Hughes
43   Posted 06/08/2007 at 18:04:20

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Andy Lea:
There are several green spaces in our city that were not originally intended in any urban planning strategy..... most notably Everton Park. Once a massive population lived on this site.... various post-war planning mishaps and depopulation turned it into an open space which it was never intended to be. This is a prime location.

JC: Unfortunately, I’m on my way back to work..... for 11 days. If I get a chance whilst there I will explain more. The business plan wasn’t really in my remit, I’m a nuts and bolts man, but I sat in on a few meetings and got the gist of some of it. My scheme, or at least the one that was shown sprung out of a few other possibilities. There are hotel chains prepared to go for the site at the back of the Park end stand, and there are also property developers. there is almost unlimited planning permission for this landmark site, and as suggested by Trevor Skempton even a large Tower could be built at this end. He should know because he is currently the consultant Architect for all the developments downtown, and that is precisely what he has been doing there. This would have all been highlighted if the Bestway project hadn’t taken over. The Bestway project will cover these options if given the time. They will beusing similar land release/finance generating schmes that Tescos/knowsley are doing at Kirkby. But the difference being that they as a private company will be able to help fund this directly as opposed to Tesco who are beholden to their shareholders. Sorry I can’t be more specific, I’m about to get on a Helicopter! Plus it’s not really my bag anyway.
John Charles
44   Posted 06/08/2007 at 18:29:02

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Cheers Tom... i’m not sure if one guy like me is worth remember or not, but there must be more people like me who would switch from a yes if given realhard financial facts and planning... maybe if you get the chance to talk to the people driving thus you could let them know that unless they can publish these facts some people like me aren’t prepared to vote no and lose Kirkby purely on hope they have a deliverable deal. if they show me evidence I will switch..but only with evidence.
45   Posted 06/08/2007 at 18:47:56

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So it’s the ’Bestway project’ is it now according to Tom Hughes? The first project I’ve heard of that has no commercial sponsors, no business case, no financials, no project management minimum standards, no implementation plan....although it does have a computer mock-up and some plans by a local architect. It also has NO MONEY!!! Time to grow up Evertonians before I am forced to go into my garden and revert to Primal Scream!!! late.
Steve Lyth
46   Posted 06/08/2007 at 19:01:10

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Brian Finnigan its obvious that Andy Lea is a self righteous person who does not give a fig about us commoners, who in his opinion cannot speak properly.
He is best left well alone mate, I wonder how he will cope with the locals that might accost him in Kirkby ?
Vote no, its the only sensible vote
all things considered.
47   Posted 06/08/2007 at 19:31:20

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Has anyone commented on the KEIOC draging the good name of Everton in the dirt. I read they went to Kirby residents with film/pictures? of Everton fans fighting. Suggesting you wouldn’t want Everton fans near you. This tactic alone settles all the above arguments. Are these people fans?
If you only support Everton because Goodison is local to you and you wouldn’t travel 4 miles to see them play you are not a fan/supporter of our club.
Tudey Boy
48   Posted 06/08/2007 at 19:01:27

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Andy Lea, "Professional Scouse Accent" What is wrong with having a scouse accent? Surley as the peoples club of this fair city most of us should have a scouse accent, as course and strong as we like, this is nothing to be ashamed about! If we move to Kirby there are definatley people who talk like that there you know!!!
49   Posted 06/08/2007 at 19:54:58

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Where did you read they went to kirkby to show videos of Everton fans fighting? However, from the above article I agree with plenty of what andy had to say. Although I don’t think Kirkby is viable or attractive to Evertonians either. Plus if you are going to criticise the average evertonian on the street trying to present an alternative to Wyness and COs so called professional artistry then you should take another look at Everton’s carefully designed plans. They also look cheap and rushed except in their case they were apparently carefully put together. What we got was a nicely lit up picture of a fairly basic modern stadium. Oh and then some more but from different perspectives. We didn’t get to see any of the following which is from the official kirkby project site.

"What we most certainly would be able to offer at a new stadium is a far greater range of facilities ? better catering outlets, better corporate and dining facilities, more comfortable seats with perfect sightlines, easier access to the stadium, better parking."

Possible exception is perfect sightlines but at times that white obstacle is somewhat a luxury when we are having an off day!

I’d like to vote no but I moved away for university 3 years ago and thus just miss out. Oh which reminds me its apparently easier to access but really it isn’t because it is further away from liverpool city centre which is where i would have to go first to then get out to kirkby. Oops Bill an Keith not your brightest moment. For an away fan yes it will be great because they can get to it nice & easy on a coach but i won’t have that shared luxury. But surely we’re not moving so the away fan benefits, are we?
stu jonno 9
50   Posted 06/08/2007 at 20:16:09

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im sick of all this talk about a new ground i cudnt giv a fuck!!!
when are we makin some signings i wanna see players like manny fernandes in our royal blue AGAIN scorin more like the 1 against manure we must have millions in the bank !
what we REALLY need is BK to sell up and fuck off to the eastend
Gavin Ramejkis
51   Posted 06/08/2007 at 20:10:55

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Sorry to upset you Phil Vickers but think you will find that all banks play foreign markets and lend savers money to all and sundry no matter what their colour or nationality it is in order to earn profits which a small portion of which they return to savers as interest. Fancy dodgy foreign banking deals? Barclays going cap in hand to China to broker an extremely large share deal so they can finance the purchase of ABN Amro one of those "dodgy foreign" banks. I said in an earlier post money is money no matter what colour it is and in the modern world of outsourcing (a KW speciality) I think you’ll find Indian and Pakistani and Chinese and other such countries rising up with many millionaires and billionaires, if they can make money and 24/7 can’t find any in his searches which would you think would make a better businessman or woman?
Alan Clarke
52   Posted 06/08/2007 at 20:34:43

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Was the fella outside the ground Icelandic? So Andy Lea is going to vote ’YES’ because "some lower clarss youth" swore at him and almost put a sticker on his posh suit.

I’m with the Icelandic fella "Saaay no to Keeerbie"!
John Currie
53   Posted 06/08/2007 at 20:45:10

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Listen I work with Andy and whilst he wears a suit for work its from Asda and he was and is a shit player. I was the said red who accompanied him to this crap game. Nuff said.
Spanner McTool
54   Posted 06/08/2007 at 21:12:23

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What do the RS make of all of this? they must think we’re fucking mad - for:
1. Moving out of Liverpool
2. Turning down the offer of Kirby.

Contracdictory? We’re in a really Shit place.

Of course there is:
3. Stay in Liverpool and turn down Kirby.

But that’s insane as well.

Best one I’ve seen is:

1. Demolish Goodison
2. Move back into Anfield
3. Rebuild Goodison

and this is fast becoming my personal choice. So with the vote I have I’ll be voting ’No’.

Finally, today, I’ve been getting pity, yes PITY off the RS members of my family. This is all too much to take.

I’ve had enough.

Tom hughes
55   Posted 06/08/2007 at 21:06:13

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RW: Sorry mate, missed yours before, I stand corrected.... That said, Man U have played outside of the city of Manchester for 97 yrs or longer than anyone can remember, and they made their move pretty much in the infancy of the game. They’re also still very much nearer the centre of the conurbation than Kirkby is to ours.
Andy Lea
56   Posted 06/08/2007 at 21:13:17

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I kinda feel the original point of my piece has been lost behind my suit and scouse accents.

I have no problem with genuine scouse accents its manufactured ones I hate.

ALAN CLARKE I had stated yes to kirkby before being sworn at, and not by a youth but by a guy 35-40 and who should know better.

Whatever your viewpoint you have to respect other peoples opinions if they differ from your own otherwise its dictatorship - both YES & NO parties need to appreciate that.

Having been raised and still living in Walton I find Goodison extremely accessible more so than Kirkby but for the sake of progress on and off the field that particualr venture appeals to me hence my standpoint.

To have my opinion so aggressively objected to just wound me up on the night.

No offence intended to those who have taken it but its ironic those who have taken offence all vote NO - kinda adds weight to my original point if anyone can remember what that was.
robert carney
57   Posted 06/08/2007 at 21:58:20

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trying to backtrack on your arrogance earlier makes you even more confusing.

Instead of going head to head with individuals stick to the debate.

Alas one you are losing.
Andy Lea
58   Posted 06/08/2007 at 22:17:13

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Define arrogance

Then point out where I was arrogant.

Then re read my piece to see the point I was trying to make.

Then realise lack of arrogance, lack of backtracking.

If someone calls my character into question then I will go head to head - the apology wasnt meant for Brian.

Let me guess - you are a NO per chance.

Someone show me a viable, affordable, attractive stadium and I reconsider (not change my mind but reconsider).

Until such a time I am a yes

I cant lose something I never set out to win. Merely wanted to spotlight an occurrence and I have never offered my argument in this debate just where my vote lies.

Do hate it when people parrot fashion others opinions. At least make it your own Robert.
Kevin Sparke
59   Posted 06/08/2007 at 22:10:27

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So, to sum up Andy’s argument - anyone who doesn’t agree with him is an ignorant scouse oik who should learn to speak wot like er majesty does init.

This excuse for an argument is without doubt the most bigoted self-hating pile of crap I’ve had the misfortune to read on this site in quite a while

Andy - you must feel very proud of yourself.

I was a ’No’ swinging towards a ’perhaps’ but you’ve provided a timely reminder to me that it is ’suits’ that have fucked up the game as a whole ... and it will be ’suits’ who fuck up our club with their short term knee-jerk solutions to our long term painful demise.

A I believe that the Kirkby move will eventually kill Everton FC as a top flight Premiership Club.

I believe we need to be at the centre of economic and cultural activity and not on the outskirts of commerce and regional identity.

I believe that given the evidence of the last 5 years our leaders are lacking in leadership and credibility and do you know what - I don’t trust them anymore; there have been too many untruths, too much sophistry and too much spin.

Thats why I’m against a Kirkby move
john michaels
60   Posted 06/08/2007 at 22:43:15

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I find one point in the whole argument really frustrating. if we move to a stadium with 50000+ seats and yet fail to fill Goodison with 42000 every week where will the extra fans come from to generate the extra income? Everton do not have the success on the pitch to attract massive corporate clients to justify the increase in the capacity. Will more people be attracted to Kirkby because of a new stadium, the answer sadly is no and the prospect of having 10000 empty seats is not something I look forward to.
Success on the pitch is how you attract more fans and as the investment in the team does not appear to be a top priority for the board, we will not attract the levels of additional income projected by KW. The move will in my view not be in the best interest of EFC. Get the team in the top 4 year on year and you will see the investors come out of the woodwork...and then move/redevelop. People want to see a winning team not a new stadium.
Andy Lea
61   Posted 06/08/2007 at 22:58:12

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Kevin Sparke

You are as wide of the mark on my opinion as a Stuart Barlow shot on goal.

"Kill Everton FC as a top flight premiership club" touch of the BK’s there in your dramatism.

John Michaels

As per one of my many retorts success on the pitch is key to fanbase I totally agree.

I knew there were people on this site with brain cells.

Jim Lloyd
62   Posted 06/08/2007 at 23:25:56

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Dear God, I’m afraid I might fall into the trap of denigrating a fellow Evertonian. I hope I don’t,as if we are not the people’s club, who on earth are we. I read, with increasing disbelief,the the post by this contributor. I then read many responses by concerned Evertonians who were ready to vote either yea, or nay but who have (I believe) the best interests of Everton and her family, at heart.Well said Anna, you got the debate back to mwhere it should be, what is in our best interest ... and to Brian Finnigan,if you’re about in Walton, I’d buy you a pint for replying to such a windbag.The danger in responding to the likes of him, however, is to get sidetracked from the real issues. There are so many good people (of course ther bloody well are, we’re Evertonians!) who want the best for Everton. How we get to that answer, is all up in the air at the moment.I am a NO voter, because I do not think we have been given enough information to have a proper debate. I will not lightly leave our city (LIVERPOOL) just because we appear to have been offered a stadium on the cheap. The long term results of leaving this city, in my opinion, will be disastrous.
To Tom Hughes, thank you for spending so much time and effort in providing us with a fine example of a viable alternative to moving away from Liverpool.Your efforts deserve much merit.To John Charles,you seem to be willing to consider an alternative, should one become available. would it be too much to ask the club to wait until a reasonable debate, encompassing all alternatives, has taken place.Iwill happily listen to positive arguments, as to why we would be better going to kirkby, although up to now none are convincing, but please, those who feel that Kirkby is he answer, don’t label us who don’t, as Nanderthal, or Luddite or crass scousers who who can’t string a reasoned argument together. This does not reflect well on our justified assertion that we are the PEOPLE’s CLUB.
Gerard Madden
63   Posted 07/08/2007 at 01:57:54

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This is a new article is it not? So why has it been quickly replaced on a prominent position on the home page to be replaced by an older article? Puzzling.
64   Posted 07/08/2007 at 05:37:57

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One point. With regard to giving future generations up to RS. I’ve lived in Scotland for 25yrs. My two sons and daughter support EFC.
We do not choose we are chosen!
65   Posted 07/08/2007 at 05:45:40

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I can’t believe at the level of vitriol being directed at Andy, all for the sake of what he thought was an unacceptable behaviour by a particular KEIOC campaigner! All Andy was saying is respect the opinions of fellow evertonians who thinks otherwise regarding the move to kirkby. Why dabble on the suit & accent, when thats not what his piece is really about.

Kevin said "anyone who doesn?t agree with him is an ignorant scouse oik...". Now thats what I thought Andy was trying to say about the keioc campaigner.
Steve Pugh
66   Posted 07/08/2007 at 15:03:02

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Listen to me please. Whether you are voting No in a hope that something better will appear, or voting Yes because it never will, or you just don’t know. STOP!!!!

I have been in touch with BESTWAY and they will answer all questions about funding in the next few days. If I hear more before the official press release I will let you all know. Don’t vote on the future of the greatest thing in our lives without knowing the full facts. And for gods sake, stop turning this into a slanging match between the yes and the no factions.

Everton is the Peoples Club and we are ALL the People
Andy Lea
67   Posted 09/08/2007 at 10:50:18

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Jim Lloyd - I would ask to you to explain " I read, with increasing disbelief,the the post by this contributor"

Just what are you failing to comprehend that I vote yes based on what I know or that I dont like aggressive objection?

As for well done Anna - desperate!

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