Now, if I was a ?yes? voter, I?d want Everton to expose Bestway for the great pretenders we keep hearing they are. I would want EFC ? once and for all ? to smash this Bestway farrago, not issue ?private? off-the-record whispers to journos. After all, if the club?s private belief differs so wildly from Bestway?s, then there?s obviously some substance to it. Isn?t there? I mean if EFC was saying 40,000 or even 45,000 the issue would be a little cloudier. And if I was a ?yes? voter, I?d be calling for EFC to sit and talk with Bestway ? just one morning and a few coffees should do it ? and demonstrate how the whole plan, HOK, WSP et al is a smokescreen.
As it happens, though, I?m a ?no? voter. And guess what? I also want EFC to sit and talk with Bestway ? a morning and a few coffees should do it ? so that we don?t have to listen to such conflicting ? and frankly demeaning opinions any longer. After all, 25,000 v 50,000 is hardly splitting hairs is it? It?s a massive chasm in opinions.
Of course, save for a very brief phone conversation between Robert Earl ? at Bill Kenwright?s behest (note, Keith Wyness wasn?t asked, bit odd that) ? we are led to believe that EFC hasn?t spoken to Bestway since circa July 26th. Why? Especially when there?s an open goal chance to smash the argument to pieces once and for all. If it can only fit 25,000 on there, then say so. Loudly, in public, unambiguously. Kill the loop stone dead.
Furthermore, if I was a Daily Post journo, I?d certainly want an EFC spokesman to go on the record and say why and how the club has come to the conclusion that just 25,000 fans could be accommodated on the site. Because if, in the absence of any EFC / Bestway talks, it is eventually proved that 50,000 can fit on the site, you can bet your bottom golden goal ticket that Everton will be the first to stress that at no stage did the club ever say that only 25,000 can fit onto the site.
?That was a viewpoint attributed to us by a local journalist,? EFC will quickly say. ?We didn?t say that only 25,000 could be housed on the loop.? So 25,000 or 50,000? Which is it? The ?yes? and the ?no? groups demand to know the truth about this one single issue at the very least. Surely we?re all united on that?
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1 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:40:46
2 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:44:50
In short, the expert Everton has asked to look at the site has stated that the site could fit a stadium of circa 30,000 (35,000 at a push) and that despite this there would be serious safety issues which would be likely to cause huge time and monetary expenses to overcome.
So it’s a non-starter basically.
3 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:48:09
4 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:55:01
and the plans, as far as i can work out, are initial artist renderings - basically a drawing. with no thought to feasibility.
but lets go with that then. instead of a stadium all thought out, ready to go and investment covered.
5 Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:50:49
This stadium debate is raging on and I am getting bored of it, most people will have voted by now so theres little point trying to convince the few remaining undecided.
Chances are there will be a yes result but the move to Kirkby will probably not happen because -
1. Kenwrights in charge and its liable to go tits up anyway.
2. A 55-60% yes vote (result I expect) is hardly a good majority so the club will be obliged to look at other options if they arise (WITH FUNDING PROPOSALS!)
I just hope that Wyshite isnt waiting with a pen for the vote result to come in because then we will feel the full force of Tesco’s steamrollers ripping the heart out of the club.
Weve got a good start to the season going here, so let’s just concentrate on the footy till the result comes in - my prediction for tomorrow is same team to start with a tight defensive game ending 1-1 or hopefully 1-2 COYB!
6 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:07:09
Then we can just check the list to see how everyone voted and hence no need for all this endless slanging.
7 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:10:11
Now, back to the game - that Neville - I don’t beliieeeeeeeeeve he still gets a start in midfield!
8 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:07:23
9 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:23:06
10 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:09:01
11 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:43:41
12 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:44:00
Apart from that, it’s a great option which we should spend a lot more time investigating.
13 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:43:18
14 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:45:24
15 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:02:32
No. Bestway have never indicated that they will provide any form of financial support. They do not have the clout with construction companies that Tesco has to extract discounts. They are compared to Tesco a rather small company indeed.
Bestway are not Tesco, and cannot provide for us what Tesco provides. End of.
16 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:54:38
17 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:56:54
18 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:12:40
19 Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:58:18
I live very close to the Arsenal stadium and can confirm that there is actually a great deal of space (at least as big as the stadium itself) around edge of the ground for people to move around in. And having been to a couple of games there please believe me when I say that they need every square centimetre of it.
Arsenal was also forced to pay for two more bridges over a rail line to give safe access to local streets. In the case if the Emirates this was simple and relatively cheap (i.e. only costing a few million) as the bridges only had to span a small branch line on one side of the stadium, but with the loop site they would have to span major roadways on every side.
If the diagram on the club?s website is even vaguely right the loop site seems a non-starter without very expensive bridging and tunnelling work around major roads (which I don?t notice the City Council offering to move at no cost to the club). And given that I have not yet seen any convincing figures for how a loop stadium will be paid for, even without the work to make the site accessible, the whole plan looks more and more like a distraction to muddy the waters around the vote and save face at the City Council. If there was a serious plan to keep Everton in the City I?d support it, but I?m persuaded the ?loop? is not a serious plan.
20 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:22:24
21 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:27:58
22 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:30:12
Am not going to lie to you, your articles often get my back up, but ’Any guy out there with a big Willey will tell you,You make it fit at any cost’ is a fucking great quote.
I’ve seen you in a ne light!
23 Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:53:51
The truth I feel would be somewhere in between - mid to late 30’s perhaps.
24 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:04:17
There appears to be offices or apartments proposedas part of the Bestway (Loop) site.If it’s anything Landsdowne Road in Dublin is being redeveloped on a similarly constricted site to a capacity of 50,000...http://www.lrsdc.ie/gallery/singlecategory.asp?PCID=34 with a more vertical design.
25 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:31:16
26 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:31:16
27 Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:38:40
28 Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:00:58
29 Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:26:35
You really think Bestway will give us 50m to build on there site? what do they make out of it?
The reason tesco will is they get a store taking retail (turnover) of 1m per week.
So how do Bestway take turnover or profit even near that for there ROI???
Hocus Pocus, pure fiction and fantasy.
Like I said.. why not build my hovering suspended spaceship 125,000 seater suspended 150 feet above Goodison? This way light still gets to all houses. We could have laser beams transporting people into the stadium instead of walk ways
nil satis nisi optimum!!
30 Posted 17/08/2007 at 19:59:18
How do you think Liverpool Vision planned to get their ROI for the King’s Dock? Through a wider residential and commercial development, which is exactly how Bestway have intimated their proposal would work.
I find it amazing how people so casually dismiss what Bestway have put forward so far on the basis that its connected with LCC so therefore it must be a charade, a political game.
There may well be financial and logistical hurdles that are too great to overcome at the loop site but we’ll never know until they are fully investigated instead of the opportunity being blocked at every turn by the current custodians of the club and those in their employ on the Kirkby Project.
31 Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:09:15
32 Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:01:19
Firstly, the chance to tell LCC/Bestway/KEIOC to put up or shut up. Provide a viable, valid business case and engineering solution, or wind your necks in.
Secondly, if the loop were in some way feasible, the opportunity to actually have a proper professional option selection exercise, whereby the merits and flaws of both proposals could be compared. The club could then arrive at a solution that catered best to it’s needs, whichever that may be.
Maybe the spectre of competition could also serve to sweeten the pot , and we could see how much Tesco really need us to be on board for the Kirkby project ;o).
My suggestion would be to hold on to the results of the ballot, give the interested parties 10 weeks to come to the table which matured proposals - Kirkby, the Loop, an John’s hovering spaceship with frickin’ laser beams (gets my vote if we can afford it). Once all the proposals are there and of comparable detail, then we can choose where we want to continue our proud dominance of British football.
oh...and one other thing...
"we are top of the league"
33 Posted 17/08/2007 at 19:59:24
I will tell you a few things which aren’t amateur: fitting a 50,000 seater stadium and solving access and safety issues is not a problem with this site as there is adjacent land of a similar size available, we are led to believe. A bridging network (picture the type of thing by the old polytechnic building just down the road from the loop) and highway links, generally speaking, would be no more expensive than the highway upgrades required for Kirkby, from what I have seen.
The fundamental problem with the loop site is the fact that it is predominantly a retaining wall structure and any foundations for the ground (or certainly any high rise towers/hotels) may undermine the structural capabilities of the existing retaining walls. As with anything in construction, this can be overcome, but it would complicate a feasibility.
The bottom line is everyone should be patient with regards to the loop...if it came off it would be worth waiting for.
34 Posted 17/08/2007 at 21:25:53
It would be more than worth waiting for. 115 years at Goodison, what’s really the problem with a few more months?
A No vote won’t consign Kirkby to the history books. Tesco will keep it bubbling for a while.... but it will give Bestway a chance to get their proposal across.
Then we can vote with a proper choice.
One thing’s for sure, The Club have made a right balls up of this - yet again. To intransigently dismiss all other opinions without proper investigation just makes me wonder exactly what some people will get from this deal. Wyness has gone right down in my estimation and BK is apparently more interested in playing silly buggers on National TV with that Joseph thing than championing the most historic
act by a Goodison Chairman in over a century! Very odd!!
35 Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:29:23
So, there is a conflict of interest there.
From a professional standpoint perhaps the ’expert’ should have refrained from passing comment until he had seen detailed plans.
This is a cross post I know, but the Bestway option is there. They are taking it seriously as should the board.
36 Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:19:03
How about this one Bestway are situated on a shit site in a run down area in Everton. They want to move but no-one and I mean no-one will want the land it is not suitable for retail its not suitable for warehouses (hence they are moving) its not suitable for offices.
They speak to LCC regards any land available in the area and hey presto Bradley sees his chance. It?s in Everton so why not build a stadium there. Only problem it?s still a shit site and Everton are looking at Kirkby.
He is aware that many supporters are against this and is also aware that when the next election arrives many will remember his lack of concrete interest in the situation.
He informs Bestway that there may be land available for them as long as they play ball with LCC. He outlines that what is needed is that they drip feed information to the media that at the last minute a site has been found. The Holy Grail in Everton itself.
The first phase is to inform the media about the site no facts about how it will be built, how it will be funded, what it will look like. He is aware that many will grab at the thought of this so time is on his side. He does not have to deliver just hold up the mirrors and blow enough smoke.
Bestway go along with LCC and questions are raised by those both for and against. He makes a few sound bites about financial backing being found raising hopes and a few pictures are produced indicating that a stadium can be built.
6 months down the line the supporters voted no and LCC state that it cannot be done too many issues outside their control such as Everton not having 150 million or so. In addition the investors he was hoping for have failed to materialise.
But hey ho he did try his best and will still carry on trying to find the right site within the LCC boundaries.
Bullshit I know but it could just be true.
37 Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:44:58
38 Posted 18/08/2007 at 04:08:44
39 Posted 18/08/2007 at 03:43:22
Forgive me if I am wrong but when you say "The first phase is to inform the media about the site no facts about how it will be built, how it will be funded, what it will look like" with regard to how LCC and Bestawy have approached the Loop site, are you implying that it is down to those two parties to do this?
As far as I am concerned, all Bestway and LCC have to do is notify EFC that there is an opportunity to develop on the site and it is down to EFC to do the work and look into it. Why do many people think that LCC and Bestway have to prove themselves to EFC? If anything LCC and Bestway are doing more than they should need to be doing by actively trying to arrange a finance package, but surely this is EFC boards job? Just seems to me that EFC have got Kirkby in their sites, and can’t be arsed with doing some more wok looking at alternatives.
It is down to EFC to decide if it is feasable or not through proper investigation, not just look at a picture and say "nah...too small" without taking into account any possible construction techniques which could make it workable.
40 Posted 18/08/2007 at 07:32:06
41 Posted 18/08/2007 at 07:32:06
42 Posted 18/08/2007 at 10:05:22
All I am saying is that because no-one and I mean no-one has given us a detailed account of their proposals, it leaves every party open to accusations of conspiracy.
I feel the stories surrounding stadium issue are becoming like the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, the Kennedy assassination
Apologies if that was not made clear. I know it is an important decision but I am just fed up of this debate now and want the results of the vote in.I can concentrate on what I follow the blues for namely, what they do on the pitch
43 Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:32:05
44 Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:34:48
45 Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:40:05
46 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:03:41
It is not a conspiracy as a conspiricy would be to offer us a choice of sites but just promote one.
They as I have already said want Kirkby, howver they have done the decent thing and are letting the supporters vote. Not sure if this in itself was a good idea but who am I to say.
At the end of the day if you want something you sell it, they want it they sell.
47 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:09:01
48 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:25:59
Because LCC have maybe told them if they do this for them LCC will scratch there backs later down the line.
Its retarded. They begin a study and low and behold the results wont be public until a WEEK after our vote closes.
Why not figures, why not even a rought outline, a statement of how it will be funded.. ’build a hotel’, not even rough sq/ft age, a total totak joke.
I don’t know if you;ve ever been part of any sort of building project or development, but I have... so if they have such great and deliverable plans why oh why is this onyl happened now and why or why do we only have a firmly GCSE -not even decent photoshop standard- ’stadium’ plonked out of no wher.
Of this is so viable, why is it only happening now???
You said we’d have figured weeks so... its all false promises - i’ve continually asked to be proven wrong , but continously the ’futher information’ is total utter fiction and none factual.
a joke, a total farce.
49 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:09:53
don’t get me wrong tony i think the kirkby stadium designs look fantastic, but my concern is merely with the location. not as you might suspect for sentimental reasons, issues concerning imaginary boundaries, or that red lot but to do with the commercial opportunities available to us at kirby. football finances will not just be about how many people you get through the gate in the future. it will be more about how much money you can "pick from the pocket" of non-football people. by this i mean the money that you can make from hotels, casinos, leisure facilities, office space associated with your stadium. it’s clear that tesco wil have "first dibs" on any of this at kirkby as opposed to us. and furthermore where is the pulling power of kirkby going to come from in terms of these facilities? kirkby will never outpull liverpool city centre in this respect. would you go to use such facilites in bolton (more accurately horwich), or wigan or would you prefer a city centre where there is a plethora of other leisure activities for you to indulge in no more than a stones throw away?
i don’t believe that a move to kirby is the end for EFC i.e. erosion of fanbase etc in fact i’m sure we’d do ok there, but should we not be looking for much more than just doing ok? should we not be looking to make as much money for EFC as we possibly can to propel us back to where we belong?
50 Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:41:39
As I have stated they want the move but have decided to let the supporters make the decision. They will put a positive spin on Kirkby as they feel it is in their interest to move there.
Why should they highlight negatives others can do so and have done so with some gusto. An earlier comment stated that now LCC and Bestway have identified a site that could house a stadium they have done their bit. It was now up to Everton to find the finance etc not LCC or Bestway. Everton have already done this found a site and found investment with Kirkby. They have stated that they do not think the link is feasible. Yes they have not provided many details about why they have reached this decision. But they have said they have considered it maybe they just do not want to get into a slinging match. Look what happens when we do.
I do not think Kirkby is a panacea however I do not feel we can sit back and wait any longer. We are at the moment just about keeping place with tier two of this league if we do not move somewhere soon we will start to fall back.
This issue has caused a lot of heartache and maybe it was morally the right decision to give us a vote but if they had said this is the stadium this is were it will be we move in then and it will cost us X, many would have been upset but moved on. Instead of a sharp hard shock this has become a long and drawn out. To put this in simple terms I would rather have a quick kick than suffer with toothache for a week.
I would rather have the city pull but this is not going to happen we have not got the money nor have we been able to identify investment partners. If a hotel is going to be built on the Loop site you could argue who will stay there rather than in the city centre itself.
This issue is all about opinions I respect differences of opinion I just do not respect those who resort to slagging others off who disagree.
I wish I had all the answers but I don?t and I believe no one has neither KEIOC, Everton nor LCC. They have proposals they believe will be successful lets hope whatever the result it turns out right for the club whatever it may be.
51 Posted 18/08/2007 at 13:17:05
as for the financing of the loop site, i just feel that it isn’t in bestway’s interests to come up with something beyond everton’s financial capabilities. on the KEIOC site it does state that business plans are being put together, presumably this will include how everton in their poor financial state will be able to generate sufficient funds / develop commercial relationships towards the site?
if the vote does come back as a yes vote then i hope with all my heart that it works out and i’m more than prepard to admit i was wrong.
52 Posted 18/08/2007 at 16:28:43
53 Posted 18/08/2007 at 19:13:39
1- Stay at goodison. Unless you get major investment to redevelop you will always be in the shadow of Liverpool,and to do this you will either need a major financial backer or finance this yourself which in turn the managers buying power will suffer.
2-The loop. This site appears so small and there is no way a 50.000 stadium could be built with all the new access /fan safety/infrastructure requirements and somebody said could bestway bankroll them? erm who are bestway
3.Kirkby- I think you have a great oppertunity to take the club forward with a new ground,road,rail,bus routes and excellent parking facilitys,so what if it only 3 1/2 miles from goodison and I think if you move froward with the ground you will attract a major investor to bankroll the team.
Dont forget Tesco are going to build a site and make money even if Everton do not go with them.
These guys a A1 business men and have a prooven track record.
This is just a kopite opinion and a genuine one before you all get on your high horses
54 Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:01:14
I too am from a split family, and it’s one of the things that makes this City great. Two teams whose supporters are spread across families. So I, for one, appreciate your opinion - RS or not. I spend a lot of time in Scotland, The Rangers Celtic rivalry is vulgar, crass and plain dumb. Our rivalry is, well, glorious in comparison.
One question though - if the roles were reversed and you couldn’t get space in Liverpool and you were offered Kirby; as an LFC fan, what would you do?
55 Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:24:11
Please don’t tell me that Kirkby is in Liverpool because it is not. It is a new town (mainly scousers, I know) with it’s own council and it’s own town centre. many may not think it matters but I do. Some say it’s only three or four miles away and that’s right but it is still outside of Liverpool. This, to me, isn’t a matter of how near my pub is , or whether I would have to travel further, I just believe we should not leave this city unless there is no other possible option left.
I could never see Liverpool ever leave this city and I could never envisage either Glasgow Rangers or Glasgow Celtic, ever leaving Glasgow.
There are many Blues who think we should go for the Kirkby option and there seem to be a number of reasons why they have chosen Kirkby. New stadium,for very little cost to us; Kirkby’s part of Liverpool; it won’t matter if we leave anyway; it’s only a few miles away. Then there’s the common denominator "We’ve got no alternative."
This is what I find frustrating, so please forgive me if I get a bit heated here.
Bill Kenwright, being a noble kind of guy, "doesn’t want to be the man who moves Everton out of Goodison Park but!! the old girl’s had it." We’ve looked all over Liverpool but there is nowhere suitable for us.However, we’ve found a place only a few miles away and it could be described as the Deal of the Century." Small problem though, it’s in Kirky but that won’t matter for long because were going to become the Liverpool City region.’Cos I’m a good kinda guy, I’m going to give all, well nearly all, Evertonians the vote and I’ll stand by the vote, but remember, there is no alternative.
Bloody Hell, what a dereliction of duty. If he knows that there is no alternative, just why have we been given the vote!! He should have made the decision with the shareholders and we should have been told that Everton are moving to Kirkby.He should then stand or fall by that decision. So whatever happens, Mr Kenwright will come out blameless. If we vote to go to Kirkby and it works, what a great guy he will be, trusting his fellow blues to make the right decision. If we vote to go to Kirkby and it goes tits up, well that will be our fault.
Now that there appears to be a possibility of a site within, not only the city but in Everton, the derision starts. For crying out loud. LCC and Bestway have had a matter of weeks to show that this site could possibly house Everton F.C. and all the club appear to have done is say "It won’t work" It’s too small" the traffic system wouldn’t cope. Bloody Hell. What is the rush and where is the fire. I would think that anyone, even a cretin like me, would have a plan B, when making a massive decision like moving home.
I cannot see that the board of Everton have given us anything like the information required to make an informed choice. I would hope to God, that LCC and Bestway are given some time to develop there proposals, then let us see if they provide a viable alternative.
This is the biggest decision in our history, I would hope that we would wait and see what Bestway and LCC can offer us, before cavalierly disregarding our one chance to stay in this city.
PS, Kopite: nice contribution, well in.
56 Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:16:15
this all breaks my heart. We should stay, there?s more of a future in Liverpool than in Kirby, and I agree - we should give LCC and Bestway a fair-go.
Kirby gives us (potentially) 10,000+ seats a match, but NO chance of extra revenue - it?s a mistake.
Liverpool is our home, it?s where the club was born and I?d hate to see it die in Kirby.
57 Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:46:08
Totally right. It’s frightening that we are being stampeded into rushing out a yes vote for kirkby. I just hope that Kenwright realises what the sodding hell he is doing and backs off. My fear is though, that he doesn’t give a tinkers toss about leaving Liverpool, as long as he’s in charge.
Christ, I couldn’t have written a worse horror story. The Red jessies building a temple to Satan, right over the spot where we used to play...and us saying oops sorry for getting in your way, we’re just leaving.
58 Posted 19/08/2007 at 00:54:00
it is absolutely gutting reading some of the views of the "yes" camp on here. it seems unfortunately that some people are falling hook, line and sinker for the EFC pro-kirkby spin. i just hope that bestway proposals haven’t come too late
59 Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:21:39
60 Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:07:13
61 Posted 21/08/2007 at 19:34:04
As to your point about you not hearing any rednoses calling your board anything negative. Being a sad sod, I listen to the radio phone ins and I heard many reds calling for Moores’s head, especially about telling him to do one, so that you could get bigger owners in.. I assure you that if reds fans had been put in such a position as we have, there would be as much as a split in your ranks. Your club though, would have a least the name of our city to show hwere you come from, if you’d have to move to Kirkby; we don’t.
62 Posted 22/08/2007 at 00:40:14
I just want to try and explain as I see it, why LCC and Bestway have only lately come up with the "Loop" proposal. For want of ant further information, I understand that when Everton were in the "Period of Exclusivity" with Tesco’s an KBC, no other proposal would be entertained. We find ourselves being given a vote, on a proposal which has no alternative and this vote will decide whether we leave this city or not.
Late in the day, LCC and Bestway provide the club with an alternative. It is late in the day because EFC have been unwilling/unable to get into discussions with anyone other than their preferred option.
I agree with you that LCC appear not to have offered much to Everton but we don’t know whether EFC have really been interested in a site in Liverpool. As far as any of us know,EFC do not have the Finances to build a stadium without the help of rich partners.
My point is that, whether they are late or not, I would want to know, in detail, what is on offer from Bestway/LCC. I would rather that we knew in detail, whether a stadium could be built and whether it could be funded by a consortium, or not.
All I would ask is that we wait until we see what they come up with, not just dismiss them out of hand.
You say that LCC have not done enough to relocate within the city. You might be right.. but I remember the King’s Dock site... a world beating site and our board messed it up. Now we are, possibly belatedly, being offered another site, in Everton I would want to be shown why it could or could not do us. I do not want to be told that it can’t be done, without it being put to the test first. It’s too important. We should not be leaving Liverpool before we know for certain that there is no alternative.
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