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25,000 or 50,000?

By Greg Murphy :  17/08/2007 :  Comments (62) :
Despite its negative headline, that Daily Post piece this morning ?Everton dismiss cash and carry site as too small? is a significant one for us all, whether pro- or anti-Kirkby. For the first time, we have a major, major gulf in the rhetoric emerging (presumably) from the Everton and Bestway camps. Bestway say the site can house a 50,000 seater. Everton, privately (sic), according to the Daily Post, believe only 25,000 can fit on there. Only one can be right.

Now, if I was a ?yes? voter, I?d want Everton to expose Bestway for the great pretenders we keep hearing they are. I would want EFC ? once and for all ? to smash this Bestway farrago, not issue ?private? off-the-record whispers to journos. After all, if the club?s private belief differs so wildly from Bestway?s, then there?s obviously some substance to it. Isn?t there? I mean if EFC was saying 40,000 or even 45,000 the issue would be a little cloudier. And if I was a ?yes? voter, I?d be calling for EFC to sit and talk with Bestway ? just one morning and a few coffees should do it ? and demonstrate how the whole plan, HOK, WSP et al is a smokescreen.

As it happens, though, I?m a ?no? voter. And guess what? I also want EFC to sit and talk with Bestway ? a morning and a few coffees should do it ? so that we don?t have to listen to such conflicting ? and frankly demeaning opinions any longer. After all, 25,000 v 50,000 is hardly splitting hairs is it? It?s a massive chasm in opinions.

Of course, save for a very brief phone conversation between Robert Earl ? at Bill Kenwright?s behest (note, Keith Wyness wasn?t asked, bit odd that) ? we are led to believe that EFC hasn?t spoken to Bestway since circa July 26th. Why? Especially when there?s an open goal chance to smash the argument to pieces once and for all. If it can only fit 25,000 on there, then say so. Loudly, in public, unambiguously. Kill the loop stone dead.

Furthermore, if I was a Daily Post journo, I?d certainly want an EFC spokesman to go on the record and say why and how the club has come to the conclusion that just 25,000 fans could be accommodated on the site. Because if, in the absence of any EFC / Bestway talks, it is eventually proved that 50,000 can fit on the site, you can bet your bottom golden goal ticket that Everton will be the first to stress that at no stage did the club ever say that only 25,000 can fit onto the site.

?That was a viewpoint attributed to us by a local journalist,? EFC will quickly say. ?We didn?t say that only 25,000 could be housed on the loop.? So 25,000 or 50,000? Which is it? The ?yes? and the ?no? groups demand to know the truth about this one single issue at the very least. Surely we?re all united on that?

Reader Comments

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Matt Coulson
1   Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:40:46

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Look on the Everton Website, in the headline news section is a link to an article talking about how the people who did the emirates have closely looked at the site and suggest that it would only house 30,000 or 35,000 at a push. It also mentions that Ashburton Grove where Aresenal now are, has almost 25 acres of land. Not the 8-9 Acres sitted as needed for a stadium. It seems that its the transport and other associated links which will cause the biggest problem to the Loop site. With no good access routes to and from the ground being planned in the bestway site. Even though there is a massive 4 lane motorway running outside it.
Sean Rothwell
2   Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:44:50

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Looks like you’ve got your wish:

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/loopo-feasibility-analysis.html



In short, the expert Everton has asked to look at the site has stated that the site could fit a stadium of circa 30,000 (35,000 at a push) and that despite this there would be serious safety issues which would be likely to cause huge time and monetary expenses to overcome.
So it’s a non-starter basically.
Col Wills
3   Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:48:09

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This article(from the club) is obviously a load of boloni.The assumption that the stadium and concourse would need to fit ’within’ the loop site is inaccurate. The plans clearly show a bridging structure over the tunnel road which would provide the necessary concourse area. lus, there is always the option to re-align certain roads, should the council so desire. In construction, anything is possible !!
Rob F
4   Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:55:01

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who is gonna pay for that re-alignment and bridging, Col?

and the plans, as far as i can work out, are initial artist renderings - basically a drawing. with no thought to feasibility.

but lets go with that then. instead of a stadium all thought out, ready to go and investment covered.
Marc R
5   Posted 17/08/2007 at 14:50:49

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I think the discrepency might come from the fact that Bestway are planning to bridge the road, not to build just within the loop boundary.
This stadium debate is raging on and I am getting bored of it, most people will have voted by now so theres little point trying to convince the few remaining undecided.
Chances are there will be a yes result but the move to Kirkby will probably not happen because -
1. Kenwrights in charge and its liable to go tits up anyway.
2. A 55-60% yes vote (result I expect) is hardly a good majority so the club will be obliged to look at other options if they arise (WITH FUNDING PROPOSALS!)
I just hope that Wyshite isnt waiting with a pen for the vote result to come in because then we will feel the full force of Tesco’s steamrollers ripping the heart out of the club.

Weve got a good start to the season going here, so let’s just concentrate on the footy till the result comes in - my prediction for tomorrow is same team to start with a tight defensive game ending 1-1 or hopefully 1-2 COYB!
Marc R
6   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:07:09

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Why dont Toffeeweb start a list of voters YES and NO, plus another list of would be voters YES and NO?
Then we can just check the list to see how everyone voted and hence no need for all this endless slanging.
Marc R
7   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:10:11

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....In fact we could also have an official LIST OF REASONS TO VOTE YES/NO. I am sick of reading the same arguments put over and over again. Before posting why not READ THE ARCHIVES. Its all been said and done.

Now, back to the game - that Neville - I don’t beliieeeeeeeeeve he still gets a start in midfield!
Peter Laing
8   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:07:23

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Anything is certainly possible with construction as long as there is an open cheque book to fund it as in the case of the boom in Dubai. Unless we can talk hardball when it comes to feasibility, funding and the necessary planning permission then I remain to be convinced and feel we are being fed pie in the sky proposals from a City Council desperate to save face.
John Charles
9   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:23:06

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It takes more than one bridge to get a safety certificate folks.
Trevor Skempton
10   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:09:01

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I can only think that the club and their advisors must have been looking the other way when the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff was built, or St James’ Park in Newcastle extended. The future is city centre stadia on tight urban sites, cleverly designed and engineered and well-served by public transport. Isolated domes or boxes surrounded by acres of car parking and gridlocked traffic belong in the past.
Sean Rothwell
11   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:43:41

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re Trevor, Kirkby is an urban area. The proposed site in Kirkby will not be "isolated" like the Reebok, the JJB or the Riverside.
Neil Pearse
12   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:44:00

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The Loop site is obviously too small, would cost a fortune to build even a too small stadium because of the access complexities, and anyway has no credible funding from either Bestway or the LCC (or anyone else).

Apart from that, it’s a great option which we should spend a lot more time investigating.
Col Wills
13   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:43:18

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Its quite clear that the club are rubbishing the loop proposal based upon the inner site and blindly ignoring the expansion of the site above the road and the area of demolished housing back towards the city. Thats fine, but with genuine engineering and construction expertise, all these issues can be overcome, yes, there is a price, but there’s also a price to be paid for vast swathes of parking, train stations, an highway works in Kirkby. Fine, tesco will pay i hear, but so will bestway wont they
Your Wyness
14   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:45:24

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"There - the ’Revolt’ dismissed out of hand in ’Official Feasibility Analysis!’ Ha hum - we’ll sleep easy tonight, stirrings of discontent quashed, order restored, green grass and and instant riches await! The ’People’ of this People’s Club WILL believe exactly what we choose to tell them, when we choose to tell them! It’s a quite simple and very clever ideology - grant the ’Peasants’ the illusion of making an informed decision and they will passively uproot and follow...Did I say peasants?"
Neil Pearse
15   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:02:32

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Col - Bestway will fund the Loop the way Tesco are funding Kirkby?

No. Bestway have never indicated that they will provide any form of financial support. They do not have the clout with construction companies that Tesco has to extract discounts. They are compared to Tesco a rather small company indeed.

Bestway are not Tesco, and cannot provide for us what Tesco provides. End of.
Dave Moorcroft
16   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:54:38

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Only the other week Wyness was telling us about all the lost time we would inherit if we went for the loop site,Re:Feasability studies,About 6 months he said.Now these same people are telling us they have done a study(analysis)in about 1 week.It only go,s to confirm that this vote thing is a farce,The club have already made their decision to take us to Kirkby.The vote is an escape from blame if it all go,s wrong(blame the fans if they vote yes).As Greg says all they need to do is talk to everyone who is saying the loop will work and prove them wrong,Then all the bickering will stop,Instead of rubbishing any individual or group who dare suggest there could be a better option than the Kirkby option.
Tony Marsh
17   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:56:54

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Any guy out there with a big Willey will tell you,You make it fit at any cost even if it kills you..I dont think Bestway and the top people they are involved with would lie about a stadium fitting on the loop.What would be the point?Maybe its not ideal.Maybe it will be a tight sqeeze.Maybe it will never happen>but at least there is a group out there trying to keep us out of Kirkby which is the only thing that matters right now.Let Kenwright and Terry Tearaway march us off to the Tescodome and it will be the biggest irreversable mistake any football team has ever made since the last time Bill Kenwright fucked up a ground move deal for Everton.
Dave Moorcroft
18   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:12:40

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Another thing the club dont mention is that this Tesco shop is going to be the biggest in europe,Have a look at the site in Kirkby and i doubt if you will be able to see EFC once the biggest tescos in europe is built.Supporters will be able to find EFC by (keep an eye out for the tescos shop its there somewhere)
Richard Watts
19   Posted 17/08/2007 at 15:58:18

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Although I?m not enthusiastic to leave GP, on this issue the club?s analysis seems right to me.

I live very close to the Arsenal stadium and can confirm that there is actually a great deal of space (at least as big as the stadium itself) around edge of the ground for people to move around in. And having been to a couple of games there please believe me when I say that they need every square centimetre of it.

Arsenal was also forced to pay for two more bridges over a rail line to give safe access to local streets. In the case if the Emirates this was simple and relatively cheap (i.e. only costing a few million) as the bridges only had to span a small branch line on one side of the stadium, but with the loop site they would have to span major roadways on every side.

If the diagram on the club?s website is even vaguely right the loop site seems a non-starter without very expensive bridging and tunnelling work around major roads (which I don?t notice the City Council offering to move at no cost to the club). And given that I have not yet seen any convincing figures for how a loop stadium will be paid for, even without the work to make the site accessible, the whole plan looks more and more like a distraction to muddy the waters around the vote and save face at the City Council. If there was a serious plan to keep Everton in the City I?d support it, but I?m persuaded the ?loop? is not a serious plan.
footiefan
20   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:22:24

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I?d want Everton to expose Bestway for the great pretenders we keep hearing they are. I would want EFC ? once and for all ? to smash this Bestway farrago. i think your comments are a negative and to call bestway pretenders is a sad comment. they dont lie about facts and figures ever. Any company compared to tesco would be small. Anyway your all missing the point now - you should chose what YOU WANT. do you want the stadium to look nice? do you want to keep it in town? Do you want a hard nosed sensible company to actually construct logical access? bestway will help towards this - do you really think they are going to build all this/help if they didnt feel it would get over congested. GO with what you desire first - the finance can be worked out later
albert velthuijsen
21   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:27:58

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what has shopping to do with EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB i want to go to a place wich breaths football among pubs a statue for dixie dean !!! so for the last time KIRBY IS A NON STARTER FOR ME.
Mark
22   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:30:12

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Tony Marsh
Am not going to lie to you, your articles often get my back up, but ’Any guy out there with a big Willey will tell you,You make it fit at any cost’ is a fucking great quote.

I’ve seen you in a ne light!
Gerard Madden
23   Posted 17/08/2007 at 16:53:51

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Both parties are wrong in my opinion, clearly 25,000 is too low an estimation by the club but 50,000 is clearly to high by the cash ’n carry.

The truth I feel would be somewhere in between - mid to late 30’s perhaps.
Joe Rourke
24   Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:04:17

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Speaking as an architect ethier is possible it’s probably down to what planning considerations, to what it costs to build that and to what financing can be generated by the design...for example Portsmouth are building apartments into their beside the sea design to help pay for it http://www.pompeyfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/NewStadium/0,,10396,00.html
.

There appears to be offices or apartments proposedas part of the Bestway (Loop) site.If it’s anything Landsdowne Road in Dublin is being redeveloped on a similarly constricted site to a capacity of 50,000...http://www.lrsdc.ie/gallery/singlecategory.asp?PCID=34 with a more vertical design.
footiefan
25   Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:31:16

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i can assure you - just forget about bestway (they own a global bank) and forget about tescos finances. All parties will sort you out with finances. As far as capacity - again BW will make what they say happen (if they can build cement plants , i am sure sorting out the loop wont be a problem for them). Like i said, we need to ask ourselves REAL questions - i want my local pub within easy reach (which it won’t be if we go to Kirby), i think forget the fiannce and the parties and involved and lets just vote for the nicest looking option. I woudl also really forget the whole capacity arguement at the loop. If Bestway said 50-60,000 then that is accurate. Ive worked with these guys before - they dont fabricate any numbers.
footiefan
26   Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:31:16

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i can assure you - just forget about bestway (they own a global bank) and forget about tescos finances. All parties will sort you out with finances. As far as capacity - again BW will make what they say happen (if they can build cement plants , i am sure sorting out the loop wont be a problem for them). Like i said, we need to ask ourselves REAL questions - i want my local pub within easy reach (which it won’t be if we go to Kirby), i think forget the fiannce and the parties and involved and lets just vote for the nicest looking option. I woudl also really forget the whole capacity arguement at the loop. If Bestway said 50-60,000 then that is accurate. Ive worked with these guys before - they dont fabricate any numbers.
footiefan
27   Posted 17/08/2007 at 17:38:40

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sorry for double post by accident
FAO footiefan
28   Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:00:58

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Lad just cos you want the ground near your local pub doesn’t mean everton should build it there! There’s plenty of Everton fans in South Liverpool, Knowsley, Sefton, North Wales, Chester etc etc etc who can’t have a beer in their local before the match ffs. Stop being so fucking selfish!
John Charles
29   Posted 17/08/2007 at 18:26:35

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Col Wilis:

You really think Bestway will give us 50m to build on there site? what do they make out of it?

The reason tesco will is they get a store taking retail (turnover) of 1m per week.

So how do Bestway take turnover or profit even near that for there ROI???

Hocus Pocus, pure fiction and fantasy.

Like I said.. why not build my hovering suspended spaceship 125,000 seater suspended 150 feet above Goodison? This way light still gets to all houses. We could have laser beams transporting people into the stadium instead of walk ways

nil satis nisi optimum!!
Lyndon
Editorial Team
30   Posted 17/08/2007 at 19:59:18

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FFS, John, please tell us why Bestway would be continuing to invest time, money and resources into investigating the possibility of a stadium at the loop if it was "hocus pocus and pure fantasy?"

How do you think Liverpool Vision planned to get their ROI for the King’s Dock? Through a wider residential and commercial development, which is exactly how Bestway have intimated their proposal would work.

I find it amazing how people so casually dismiss what Bestway have put forward so far on the basis that its connected with LCC so therefore it must be a charade, a political game.

There may well be financial and logistical hurdles that are too great to overcome at the loop site but we’ll never know until they are fully investigated instead of the opportunity being blocked at every turn by the current custodians of the club and those in their employ on the Kirkby Project.
Crusty
31   Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:09:15

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John Charles... actually Bestway are planning a deal similar to the Tesco one with an outlay for Everton of approx £50mil. As to how Bestway make money out of this have you even seen what they are proposing? They are planning a residential and leisure development to enable the project - this sort of development actually brings more revenue per area than retail can. Before you go off on one about your "floating stadium" how about you find out what you are talking about before spouting your ill-informed opinions. For those of us who are aware of what Bestway are planning the sort of rubbish you spout is truly annoying. Is it too much to ask that the club find out what Bestway are proposing instead of going out of their way to discredit it - using the compaines due to work on the Kirkby project to do so of course! I’d like my club to look at all possibilities and chose the best one, but then apparently there is no plan B (well not one that pays Wyness as well anyway...)
Gordon J Blair
32   Posted 17/08/2007 at 20:01:19

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The Club, it seems is about to pass up a couple of great opportunities.

Firstly, the chance to tell LCC/Bestway/KEIOC to put up or shut up. Provide a viable, valid business case and engineering solution, or wind your necks in.

Secondly, if the loop were in some way feasible, the opportunity to actually have a proper professional option selection exercise, whereby the merits and flaws of both proposals could be compared. The club could then arrive at a solution that catered best to it’s needs, whichever that may be.
Maybe the spectre of competition could also serve to sweeten the pot , and we could see how much Tesco really need us to be on board for the Kirkby project ;o).

My suggestion would be to hold on to the results of the ballot, give the interested parties 10 weeks to come to the table which matured proposals - Kirkby, the Loop, an John’s hovering spaceship with frickin’ laser beams (gets my vote if we can afford it). Once all the proposals are there and of comparable detail, then we can choose where we want to continue our proud dominance of British football.

oh...and one other thing...

"we are top of the league"

:o)COYB
roypwarne
33   Posted 17/08/2007 at 19:59:24

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without wanting to sound condescending, this topic is becoming riddled with amateur opinions regarding construction...

I will tell you a few things which aren’t amateur: fitting a 50,000 seater stadium and solving access and safety issues is not a problem with this site as there is adjacent land of a similar size available, we are led to believe. A bridging network (picture the type of thing by the old polytechnic building just down the road from the loop) and highway links, generally speaking, would be no more expensive than the highway upgrades required for Kirkby, from what I have seen.
The fundamental problem with the loop site is the fact that it is predominantly a retaining wall structure and any foundations for the ground (or certainly any high rise towers/hotels) may undermine the structural capabilities of the existing retaining walls. As with anything in construction, this can be overcome, but it would complicate a feasibility.
The bottom line is everyone should be patient with regards to the loop...if it came off it would be worth waiting for.
Karl Masters
34   Posted 17/08/2007 at 21:25:53

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Sense at last, Roy P Warne!!!

It would be more than worth waiting for. 115 years at Goodison, what’s really the problem with a few more months?

A No vote won’t consign Kirkby to the history books. Tesco will keep it bubbling for a while.... but it will give Bestway a chance to get their proposal across.

Then we can vote with a proper choice.

One thing’s for sure, The Club have made a right balls up of this - yet again. To intransigently dismiss all other opinions without proper investigation just makes me wonder exactly what some people will get from this deal. Wyness has gone right down in my estimation and BK is apparently more interested in playing silly buggers on National TV with that Joseph thing than championing the most historic
act by a Goodison Chairman in over a century! Very odd!!
Bootle blue
35   Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:29:23

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Just a quickie, but the expert who states, on the EFC website, that the Loop could only fit 35,000 is employed by EFC as part of the Kirby project.
So, there is a conflict of interest there.
From a professional standpoint perhaps the ’expert’ should have refrained from passing comment until he had seen detailed plans.
This is a cross post I know, but the Bestway option is there. They are taking it seriously as should the board.

Tony Miller
36   Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:19:03

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Conspiracy theorists are us.

How about this one Bestway are situated on a shit site in a run down area in Everton. They want to move but no-one and I mean no-one will want the land it is not suitable for retail its not suitable for warehouses (hence they are moving) its not suitable for offices.

They speak to LCC regards any land available in the area and hey presto Bradley sees his chance. It?s in Everton so why not build a stadium there. Only problem it?s still a shit site and Everton are looking at Kirkby.

He is aware that many supporters are against this and is also aware that when the next election arrives many will remember his lack of concrete interest in the situation.

He informs Bestway that there may be land available for them as long as they play ball with LCC. He outlines that what is needed is that they drip feed information to the media that at the last minute a site has been found. The Holy Grail in Everton itself.

The first phase is to inform the media about the site no facts about how it will be built, how it will be funded, what it will look like. He is aware that many will grab at the thought of this so time is on his side. He does not have to deliver just hold up the mirrors and blow enough smoke.

Bestway go along with LCC and questions are raised by those both for and against. He makes a few sound bites about financial backing being found raising hopes and a few pictures are produced indicating that a stadium can be built.

6 months down the line the supporters voted no and LCC state that it cannot be done too many issues outside their control such as Everton not having 150 million or so. In addition the investors he was hoping for have failed to materialise.

But hey ho he did try his best and will still carry on trying to find the right site within the LCC boundaries.

Bullshit I know but it could just be true.
Tony Miller
37   Posted 17/08/2007 at 23:44:58

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P.s I see HOK who Bestway have instructed to look at designs did the Reebox for Bolton mmmmmmmmmmm?
David Freel
38   Posted 18/08/2007 at 04:08:44

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...and The Emirates, and Wembley Stadium, and EstadioDaLuz, and the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff...
Smiffy
39   Posted 18/08/2007 at 03:43:22

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Tony Miller...

Forgive me if I am wrong but when you say "The first phase is to inform the media about the site no facts about how it will be built, how it will be funded, what it will look like" with regard to how LCC and Bestawy have approached the Loop site, are you implying that it is down to those two parties to do this?

As far as I am concerned, all Bestway and LCC have to do is notify EFC that there is an opportunity to develop on the site and it is down to EFC to do the work and look into it. Why do many people think that LCC and Bestway have to prove themselves to EFC? If anything LCC and Bestway are doing more than they should need to be doing by actively trying to arrange a finance package, but surely this is EFC boards job? Just seems to me that EFC have got Kirkby in their sites, and can’t be arsed with doing some more wok looking at alternatives.

It is down to EFC to decide if it is feasable or not through proper investigation, not just look at a picture and say "nah...too small" without taking into account any possible construction techniques which could make it workable.
johnBurley
40   Posted 18/08/2007 at 07:32:06

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Tony - your conspiracy theory is exactly that and only that. Do some real reasearch - anytime bestway want to reloacte a depot, they just go ahead themselves and they shift it i.e. look at their Acton branch, hackney branch. they just picked it up and moved it. on their website it says they just opened a new Enfield branch too. this is definately no ploy over land. there is no conflict in numbers again - the bestway numbers are correct. are you trying to tell me that a company that just spent £100 million buying another company can’t produce an accurate picture of how many people the stadium can take? Give me a break. I actually like their preliminary design with all the glass.
johnBurley
41   Posted 18/08/2007 at 07:32:06

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Tony - your conspiracy theory is exactly that and only that. Do some real reasearch - anytime bestway want to reloacte a depot, they just go ahead themselves and they shift it i.e. look at their Acton branch, hackney branch. they just picked it up and moved it. on their website it says they just opened a new Enfield branch too. this is definately no ploy over land. there is no conflict in numbers again - the bestway numbers are correct. are you trying to tell me that a company that just spent £100 million buying another company can’t produce an accurate picture of how many people the stadium can take? Give me a break. I actually like their preliminary design with all the glass.
Tony Miller
42   Posted 18/08/2007 at 10:05:22

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I cannot believe you thought I meant this to be a true statement. As stated its bullshit, it could be true was tongue in cheek comment.

All I am saying is that because no-one and I mean no-one has given us a detailed account of their proposals, it leaves every party open to accusations of conspiracy.

I feel the stories surrounding stadium issue are becoming like the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, the Kennedy assassination

Apologies if that was not made clear. I know it is an important decision but I am just fed up of this debate now and want the results of the vote in.I can concentrate on what I follow the blues for namely, what they do on the pitch
John Littler
43   Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:32:05

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Does anybody know why EFC displayed a different diagram of the prposed stadium at the loop site on their website? the stadium on the EFC website is not the same design nor is it orientated the same way as that on the KEIOC website. in fact the stadium?s much bigger and appears to take up a lot more of the site and in fact doesn?t actually fit on there! Possibly there are some copyright issues? I don?t know I?m no expert, but I seriously doubt that anybody associated with the Bestway design would be hauling them before a judge to sue them for breach of copyright do you!? Or is it perhaps the fact the EFC spin machine was once again in full swing attempting to discredit the Bestway proposals and thus further promote the Kirkby move? Who knows I can only speculate, but I?ll leave you to make your own minds up.
Tony Miller
44   Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:34:48

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I would suggest it is the Kirkby footprint if you see it as underhand that’s up to you.
John Littler
45   Posted 18/08/2007 at 11:40:05

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so you don’t think it’s a little strange? why not just use the image actually produced by bestway?
Tony Miller
46   Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:03:41

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They want the Kirkby site, they think it is the best option, they do not think the loop will work, they will not promote it.

It is not a conspiracy as a conspiricy would be to offer us a choice of sites but just promote one.

They as I have already said want Kirkby, howver they have done the decent thing and are letting the supporters vote. Not sure if this in itself was a good idea but who am I to say.

At the end of the day if you want something you sell it, they want it they sell.
Tony Miller
47   Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:09:01

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God my spelling and grammer was poor on the last. Apologies.
John Charles
48   Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:25:59

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Lyndon:

Because LCC have maybe told them if they do this for them LCC will scratch there backs later down the line.

Its retarded. They begin a study and low and behold the results wont be public until a WEEK after our vote closes.

Why not figures, why not even a rought outline, a statement of how it will be funded.. ’build a hotel’, not even rough sq/ft age, a total totak joke.
I don’t know if you;ve ever been part of any sort of building project or development, but I have... so if they have such great and deliverable plans why oh why is this onyl happened now and why or why do we only have a firmly GCSE -not even decent photoshop standard- ’stadium’ plonked out of no wher.

Of this is so viable, why is it only happening now???

You said we’d have figured weeks so... its all false promises - i’ve continually asked to be proven wrong , but continously the ’futher information’ is total utter fiction and none factual.

a joke, a total farce.
John Littler
49   Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:09:53

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how are they doing the decent thing when they are quite clearly offering the vote and then doing everything in their power to sway the vote their way? the decent thing to do would be to offer a vote and then present both the pro’s and the cons (which there must indeed be with the kirkby project). the brochure they sent out is a joke! there isn’t one single negative comment in there! people spend fortunes and make fantastic livelihoods out of such biased marketing! there’s a psychology to it all and there’s big money to be had from it all. just look at the excessively extravagant campaigns waged by the clowns over the pond during their presidential election campaigns! i want a balanced account to base my decision on, not a load of biased spin. have you heard anyone from EFC actually say anything bad about the kikby project?

don’t get me wrong tony i think the kirkby stadium designs look fantastic, but my concern is merely with the location. not as you might suspect for sentimental reasons, issues concerning imaginary boundaries, or that red lot but to do with the commercial opportunities available to us at kirby. football finances will not just be about how many people you get through the gate in the future. it will be more about how much money you can "pick from the pocket" of non-football people. by this i mean the money that you can make from hotels, casinos, leisure facilities, office space associated with your stadium. it’s clear that tesco wil have "first dibs" on any of this at kirkby as opposed to us. and furthermore where is the pulling power of kirkby going to come from in terms of these facilities? kirkby will never outpull liverpool city centre in this respect. would you go to use such facilites in bolton (more accurately horwich), or wigan or would you prefer a city centre where there is a plethora of other leisure activities for you to indulge in no more than a stones throw away?

i don’t believe that a move to kirby is the end for EFC i.e. erosion of fanbase etc in fact i’m sure we’d do ok there, but should we not be looking for much more than just doing ok? should we not be looking to make as much money for EFC as we possibly can to propel us back to where we belong?
Tony Miller
50   Posted 18/08/2007 at 12:41:39

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I believe they have done the decent thing by offering us a vote on the move. They obviously want to move to Kirkby and feel this is the best option. I am not naïve enough to think this was the only option they looked at but they obviously feel it is the only feasible option.

As I have stated they want the move but have decided to let the supporters make the decision. They will put a positive spin on Kirkby as they feel it is in their interest to move there.

Why should they highlight negatives others can do so and have done so with some gusto. An earlier comment stated that now LCC and Bestway have identified a site that could house a stadium they have done their bit. It was now up to Everton to find the finance etc not LCC or Bestway. Everton have already done this found a site and found investment with Kirkby. They have stated that they do not think the link is feasible. Yes they have not provided many details about why they have reached this decision. But they have said they have considered it maybe they just do not want to get into a slinging match. Look what happens when we do.

I do not think Kirkby is a panacea however I do not feel we can sit back and wait any longer. We are at the moment just about keeping place with tier two of this league if we do not move somewhere soon we will start to fall back.

This issue has caused a lot of heartache and maybe it was morally the right decision to give us a vote but if they had said this is the stadium this is were it will be we move in then and it will cost us X, many would have been upset but moved on. Instead of a sharp hard shock this has become a long and drawn out. To put this in simple terms I would rather have a quick kick than suffer with toothache for a week.

I would rather have the city pull but this is not going to happen we have not got the money nor have we been able to identify investment partners. If a hotel is going to be built on the Loop site you could argue who will stay there rather than in the city centre itself.

This issue is all about opinions I respect differences of opinion I just do not respect those who resort to slagging others off who disagree.

I wish I had all the answers but I don?t and I believe no one has neither KEIOC, Everton nor LCC. They have proposals they believe will be successful lets hope whatever the result it turns out right for the club whatever it may be.
John Littler
51   Posted 18/08/2007 at 13:17:05

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Good points tony. i certainly agree about the slanging matches. what’s the point?

as for the financing of the loop site, i just feel that it isn’t in bestway’s interests to come up with something beyond everton’s financial capabilities. on the KEIOC site it does state that business plans are being put together, presumably this will include how everton in their poor financial state will be able to generate sufficient funds / develop commercial relationships towards the site?

if the vote does come back as a yes vote then i hope with all my heart that it works out and i’m more than prepard to admit i was wrong.
johnBurley
52   Posted 18/08/2007 at 16:28:43

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bestway own a bank so i just dont see why the finance side is even being discussed. if they get the green light you can bet your bottom dollar theyll get the bank to sort it out. Hell maybe theyll refinance all of Everton through their own bank and give them a better deal to speed up the overall bestway ROI
kopite
53   Posted 18/08/2007 at 19:13:39

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Guys/gals, I am a LFC season ticket holder but my son supports Everton and although we give one another some stick it is all light hearted and he has been showing me this site. I cannot believe the backbiting/name calling between the blues and I truly believe you should stick together whatever the outcome,here is a observation from a kopite.
1- Stay at goodison. Unless you get major investment to redevelop you will always be in the shadow of Liverpool,and to do this you will either need a major financial backer or finance this yourself which in turn the managers buying power will suffer.
2-The loop. This site appears so small and there is no way a 50.000 stadium could be built with all the new access /fan safety/infrastructure requirements and somebody said could bestway bankroll them? erm who are bestway
3.Kirkby- I think you have a great oppertunity to take the club forward with a new ground,road,rail,bus routes and excellent parking facilitys,so what if it only 3 1/2 miles from goodison and I think if you move froward with the ground you will attract a major investor to bankroll the team.
Dont forget Tesco are going to build a site and make money even if Everton do not go with them.
These guys a A1 business men and have a prooven track record.
This is just a kopite opinion and a genuine one before you all get on your high horses
bootle blue
54   Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:01:14

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kopite -
I too am from a split family, and it’s one of the things that makes this City great. Two teams whose supporters are spread across families. So I, for one, appreciate your opinion - RS or not. I spend a lot of time in Scotland, The Rangers Celtic rivalry is vulgar, crass and plain dumb. Our rivalry is, well, glorious in comparison.

One question though - if the roles were reversed and you couldn’t get space in Liverpool and you were offered Kirby; as an LFC fan, what would you do?
Jim Lloyd
55   Posted 18/08/2007 at 20:24:11

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Sadly, what this proposed move appears to have done is split us down the middle. I have voted no to the Kirkby proposal because I believe Everton should stay in Liverpool. I believe that if we move out of this city we will, over time, become just a club but we will not be a Liverpool club and the people in the future will, more and more just support the club of this city, that will be Liverpool F.C. We will be Everton still, but we will not belong to this city.
Please don’t tell me that Kirkby is in Liverpool because it is not. It is a new town (mainly scousers, I know) with it’s own council and it’s own town centre. many may not think it matters but I do. Some say it’s only three or four miles away and that’s right but it is still outside of Liverpool. This, to me, isn’t a matter of how near my pub is , or whether I would have to travel further, I just believe we should not leave this city unless there is no other possible option left.
I could never see Liverpool ever leave this city and I could never envisage either Glasgow Rangers or Glasgow Celtic, ever leaving Glasgow.
There are many Blues who think we should go for the Kirkby option and there seem to be a number of reasons why they have chosen Kirkby. New stadium,for very little cost to us; Kirkby’s part of Liverpool; it won’t matter if we leave anyway; it’s only a few miles away. Then there’s the common denominator "We’ve got no alternative."
This is what I find frustrating, so please forgive me if I get a bit heated here.
Bill Kenwright, being a noble kind of guy, "doesn’t want to be the man who moves Everton out of Goodison Park but!! the old girl’s had it." We’ve looked all over Liverpool but there is nowhere suitable for us.However, we’ve found a place only a few miles away and it could be described as the Deal of the Century." Small problem though, it’s in Kirky but that won’t matter for long because were going to become the Liverpool City region.’Cos I’m a good kinda guy, I’m going to give all, well nearly all, Evertonians the vote and I’ll stand by the vote, but remember, there is no alternative.

Bloody Hell, what a dereliction of duty. If he knows that there is no alternative, just why have we been given the vote!! He should have made the decision with the shareholders and we should have been told that Everton are moving to Kirkby.He should then stand or fall by that decision. So whatever happens, Mr Kenwright will come out blameless. If we vote to go to Kirkby and it works, what a great guy he will be, trusting his fellow blues to make the right decision. If we vote to go to Kirkby and it goes tits up, well that will be our fault.

Now that there appears to be a possibility of a site within, not only the city but in Everton, the derision starts. For crying out loud. LCC and Bestway have had a matter of weeks to show that this site could possibly house Everton F.C. and all the club appear to have done is say "It won’t work" It’s too small" the traffic system wouldn’t cope. Bloody Hell. What is the rush and where is the fire. I would think that anyone, even a cretin like me, would have a plan B, when making a massive decision like moving home.
I cannot see that the board of Everton have given us anything like the information required to make an informed choice. I would hope to God, that LCC and Bestway are given some time to develop there proposals, then let us see if they provide a viable alternative.
This is the biggest decision in our history, I would hope that we would wait and see what Bestway and LCC can offer us, before cavalierly disregarding our one chance to stay in this city.
PS, Kopite: nice contribution, well in.
Jez Wyke
56   Posted 18/08/2007 at 22:16:15

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Jim,

this all breaks my heart. We should stay, there?s more of a future in Liverpool than in Kirby, and I agree - we should give LCC and Bestway a fair-go.
Kirby gives us (potentially) 10,000+ seats a match, but NO chance of extra revenue - it?s a mistake.
Liverpool is our home, it?s where the club was born and I?d hate to see it die in Kirby.
Jim Lloyd
57   Posted 18/08/2007 at 23:46:08

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Jez,

Totally right. It’s frightening that we are being stampeded into rushing out a yes vote for kirkby. I just hope that Kenwright realises what the sodding hell he is doing and backs off. My fear is though, that he doesn’t give a tinkers toss about leaving Liverpool, as long as he’s in charge.
Christ, I couldn’t have written a worse horror story. The Red jessies building a temple to Satan, right over the spot where we used to play...and us saying oops sorry for getting in your way, we’re just leaving.
John Littler
58   Posted 19/08/2007 at 00:54:00

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Jim, Jez -

it is absolutely gutting reading some of the views of the "yes" camp on here. it seems unfortunately that some people are falling hook, line and sinker for the EFC pro-kirkby spin. i just hope that bestway proposals haven’t come too late
Colin Potter
59   Posted 19/08/2007 at 09:21:39

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A really great contribution Jim Lloyd. It just goes to show what a pathetic prick of a chairman Kenwright really is!
kopite
60   Posted 20/08/2007 at 22:07:13

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We are doing what are club directors think what is best for the club and that is moving to a new ground although only yards away and we was never put in a position as the blue noses are in a vote..... it still puzzles me how LFC was given permission to build on a listed park and I think LCC has bent over backwards for LFC maybe beacause of our new investors I am not sure and I have never heard a red nose calling our board or directors anything negative, as for the blue boys it appears to me they have come up with a half hearted attemp to keep them in Liverpool and if I was in your position I would say "stuff LCC and their feeble efforts" and go with the boards recommendations which I think are only doing the best for the club.....but you all need to stop backbiting and namecalling and stick together to try and resolve this matter
Jim Lloyd
61   Posted 21/08/2007 at 19:34:04

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To kopite,Again, you’ve put in a decent contribution but this time I’d like to challenge a couple of points you make. First of all though, I agree we need to stop the backbiting, that will get us nowhere. Unfortunately, with such an extremely emotive issue i.e. the very future of our club, feelings are running high.As I said, I believe Kenwright has abrogated his responsibility by not making this decision. He should have gone with it, if he truely believes it is the deal of the century.Now, the bits I disagree with you, I don’t believe that LCC have come up with a half hearted attempt to keep us in Liverpool. I think I’d like to know whether the site is viable or not before dismissing it. It looks good to me but I’d wan’t to know if it could work.The trouble is, we have to vote without having a chance to know.
As to your point about you not hearing any rednoses calling your board anything negative. Being a sad sod, I listen to the radio phone ins and I heard many reds calling for Moores’s head, especially about telling him to do one, so that you could get bigger owners in.. I assure you that if reds fans had been put in such a position as we have, there would be as much as a split in your ranks. Your club though, would have a least the name of our city to show hwere you come from, if you’d have to move to Kirkby; we don’t.
Jim Lloyd
62   Posted 22/08/2007 at 00:40:14

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Well kopite, this is a bit surreal, discussing with a red, the future of EFC. However, you have family who are blues, so in the end, it affects most families in Liverpool.
I just want to try and explain as I see it, why LCC and Bestway have only lately come up with the "Loop" proposal. For want of ant further information, I understand that when Everton were in the "Period of Exclusivity" with Tesco’s an KBC, no other proposal would be entertained. We find ourselves being given a vote, on a proposal which has no alternative and this vote will decide whether we leave this city or not.
Late in the day, LCC and Bestway provide the club with an alternative. It is late in the day because EFC have been unwilling/unable to get into discussions with anyone other than their preferred option.
I agree with you that LCC appear not to have offered much to Everton but we don’t know whether EFC have really been interested in a site in Liverpool. As far as any of us know,EFC do not have the Finances to build a stadium without the help of rich partners.
My point is that, whether they are late or not, I would want to know, in detail, what is on offer from Bestway/LCC. I would rather that we knew in detail, whether a stadium could be built and whether it could be funded by a consortium, or not.
All I would ask is that we wait until we see what they come up with, not just dismiss them out of hand.
You say that LCC have not done enough to relocate within the city. You might be right.. but I remember the King’s Dock site... a world beating site and our board messed it up. Now we are, possibly belatedly, being offered another site, in Everton I would want to be shown why it could or could not do us. I do not want to be told that it can’t be done, without it being put to the test first. It’s too important. We should not be leaving Liverpool before we know for certain that there is no alternative.

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